Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Diddy Kong]

Reggie told the VGAs that the DLC characters will be from series we have "never seen in Smash, whatever the form".
Sakurai wants to integrate characters that are "unique" and "different" into the Smash Bros. environment.
There are only 12 new fighters for Ultimate, it seems obvious that these 12 elected are each from different series, and different publishers for non-Nintendo content. No license will have donated 9 or 4 non-Echo representations : Mario/Pokemon 8 - Zelda 6 - Fire Emblem 5 - DK/Metroid/Kirby/Starfox 3. Not 4.

-> Bye bye Travis Touchdown, Master Chief, Dante + Konami, Sega, Monster Hunter, Lloyd Irving, Heihachi Mishima, Rayman... and all the characters of the Nintendo licenses already represented. Rareware ? Be careful... King K. Rool and Krystal were created by Rareware.

Happy holiday season!

Where did he say this? Been looking for the quote honestly. Because people have been saying it implies 3rd party DLC characters only.

I mean, I just kinda wanna have hope for Isaac still.

 

[RileyXY1]

Where did he say this? Been looking for the quote honestly. Because people have been saying it implies 3rd party DLC characters only.

I mean, I just kinda wanna have hope for Isaac still.

He just said that all of the DLC characters are newcomers. This is a given because all of the veterans are in the base roster.

 

[Ornl]

And Reggie announces only "insuspectable".

Sources always need to be checked. For my part, I only have this one : https://youtu.be/saVNH6zr2nw 7 hours 52 minutes 38 seconds "These are going to be characters that are new to the serie".

A Trophy Assist can not become a DLC fighter. It turns out that Persona 5 and Dragon Quest III are the 2 favorite games of Japaneses : https://www.dualshockers.com/persona-5-best-game-time-famitsu/ Joker is the first DLC. The second is potentially Erdrick. But they was the easiest to find. There are only three places left, and this is where it gets complicated.

 

[Diddy Kong]

He just said that all of the DLC characters are newcomers. This is a given because all of the veterans are in the base roster.

Well yes, but he also said new franchises. Which implies nothing for current franchises which could use another character, as DKC, Zelda, Kirby or Xenoblade.

 

[RileyXY1]

And Reggie announces only "insuspectable".

Sources always need to be checked. For my part, I only have this one : https://youtu.be/saVNH6zr2nw 7 hours 52 minutes 38 seconds "These are going to be characters that are new to the serie".

A Trophy Assist can not become a DLC fighter. It turns out that Persona 5 and Dragon Quest III are the 2 favorite games of Japaneses : https://www.dualshockers.com/persona-5-best-game-time-famitsu/ Joker is the first DLC. The second is potentially Erdrick. But they was the easiest to find. There are only three places left, and this is where it gets complicated.

I don't think that a DQ character is getting in.

 

[Ovaltine]

Well yes, but he also said new franchises. Which implies nothing for current franchises which could use another character, as DKC, Zelda, Kirby or Xenoblade.

Source? All of the sources I can find only quote him as saying new to the series. A few sites stated that he said 'new franchises', but used his quote as the source of that claim, which has been boiled down to bad journalism.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Source? All of the sources I can find only quote him as saying new to the series. A few sites stated that he said 'new franchises', but used his quote as the source of that claim, which has been boiled down to bad journalism.

My dear friend Banana, my good good friend Banana, I am looking for the source myself.

 

[Ovaltine]

My dear friend Banana, my good good friend Banana, I am looking for the source myself.

Sources always need to be checked. For my part, I only have this one : https://youtu.be/saVNH6zr2nw 7 hours 52 minutes 38 seconds "These are going to be characters that are new to the serie".

This is, as far as I know, the only source when it comes to Reggie saying characters are new to the series, and it really is just that. He says 'characters new to the series', but in no way does he say that it's definitely only new franchises. Reggie's a PR boss, lemme tell ya. He's good at making vague claims that leave things so open-ended that it's hard to find a clear-cut answer, and it's what he's known for. It's a smart move.

 

[WaddleMatt]

A Trophy Assist can not become a DLC fighter.

Thank you Mr. Sakurai very cool.

Seriously though, this is not a genuine rule.

 

[SPEN18]

"This gives you a flavor of how we're approaching the DLC...These are going to be characters that are new to the series, just like Joker from Persona 5, characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate." - Reggie, at the Game Awards, from the same video link that was posted by Ornl.

To me, it's all pretty standard PR talk. There's no evidence that he was referencing any specific characters besides Joker, and he's not dropping any hints about what to expect. A "flavor" of the DLC doesn't tell you much at all about the DLC as a whole. "New to the series" is way too general to discern anything; indeed, that's probably the point of making a blanket statement like that. "Characters that you would not anticipate" doesn't really mean anything either. Remember that he's not exclusively talking to people who speculate on Smash. Just because Banjo or Lloyd or whoever are talked about a lot around here doesn't mean that they would be "anticipated" by general audiences. Now, the last 4 characters could end up being all third parties who have never appeared in Smash in any form; that's certainly a possibility. But I highly doubt that Reggie was trying to hint at something like this in any capacity. He's just trying to hype people up for the DLC; assuming anything more is only a way to eliminate characters from consideration who, in reality, have just as fair a shake as any.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

My worry with a Dragon Quest character is that SquareEnix will only allow the minimum requirement for representation like with Final Fantasy.

With what's going on with Toei and Dragonball Fighterz... I hope now more than ever that Goku never gets into smash.

I was originally thinking that it would be kind of funny if they added him, but with recent developments I now see that the joke would be that Smash Ultimate would die competitively because of one character...That's not nearly as funny.

EDIT: Though I suppose the TOs could just ban him so hard they omit him and his stage from their respective selection screens.

 

[ProfPeanut]

I think you'd have to use a particularly dense lens to say there's almost nothing of value from Reggie's statements. I understand trying to keep expectations tempered, especially when the DLC will take all of 2019 and more to complete, but don't act like we hadn't gotten a DLC reveal to work with at all.

I want to highlight some other parts that people seem to overlook (and yes, they're word-for-word quotations). When someone says "this gives you a flavor about how we're approaching the DLC", it usually suggests that a direction is being taken, one whose general trajectory can be inferred based on whatever the example was (e.g. Joker). If the direction was really headed towards the likes of Edelgard/Melmetal/Crafted Yoshi when it was initially pointed at Joker, then that'd be a completely different flavor of DLC than what was first suggested.

"These are going to be characters that are new to the series, just like Joker from Persona 5." See, this is where people get the idea that we're getting totally brand new series in the first place: the fact that he immediately follows "new to the series" with "just like Joker", which would suggest that the newcomers would be about as new to Super Smash Bros as Persona is, a series that had no forthcoming beyond a Tokyo Mirage Sessions spirit. I don't know what twisted logic gets applied in this case, but that's not a comparison that applies to the likes of Mario, or Zelda, or Fire Emblem, or any series already immersedly represented in Smash.

"Characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Bros." How does anyone say something this without any idea of who people anticipate? Does someone simply say that and assume that people don't anticipate Bandana Waddle Dee or Waluigi, if characters like those two were really on the way? Does anyone say that and think that Sora and Banjo don't really have that big of an anticipation thread in the wings for them, if they knew those two were coming?

So to recap, that's three separate statements from Reggie Fils-Aime himself that suggest the same radical idea: that the DLC newcomers will not be characters that are conventionally expected for Smash, such as Joker from Persona 5. "Well, he's obviously overselling/doing PR/lying," some might argue. Right, like how Sakurai tried to tell us "not to expect too many new fighters" and that the rate of character reveals would slow down, but people chose to ignore those and ate up the Grinch hoax anyway. And that was to keep us from getting too excited.

No one in their right mind, let alone "I've cushioned Nintendo's poor decisions my whole life" Reggie Fils-Aime, would hype up the DLC using "Never Saw It Coming" Joker as the point of comparison if we were only going to get Edelgard-level reveals later down the line. Speaking from all the years that I've heard him talk in E3s and Directs, I've never seen Reggie as someone who's ever tried to mislead us or oversell us on how a game's content is going to turn out. He's always stayed honest about every Nintendo product that he's had to sell to us - if they're lacking, flawed, or not necessarily the GotY, he presents them simply as they are, using whatever's functional in them and Nintendo's best intentions as his arguments (which is all he really had to work with for many years). His job so much of the time is just trying to make everything look decent enough to be bought.

So whenever he gets something actually meaty to work with, he goes for it. He sells it up because it's worth it. When he says to get hyped for Breath of the Wild, Super Mario Odyssey, or the mysterious NX, he means it. Reggie knows what real substance looks like, and he would not suggest that the following DLC would be Joker-level reveals if they were not even comparable.

There's plenty of reasons why lots of people are trying to twist the direction back towards home-country Nintendo, but if you're really convinced we'll still be getting Waluigi or Geno after the direction Joker's taking this DLC pass, you're probably setting yourself up for a rude last surprise.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think you'd have to use a particularly dense lens to say there's almost nothing of value from Reggie's statements. I understand trying to keep expectations tempered, especially when the DLC will take all of 2019 and more to complete, but don't act like we hadn't gotten a DLC reveal to work with at all.

I want to highlight some other parts that people seem to overlook (and yes, they're word-for-word quotations). When someone says "this gives you a flavor about how we're approaching the DLC", it usually suggests that a direction is being taken, one whose general trajectory can be inferred based on whatever the example was (e.g. Joker). If the direction was really headed towards the likes of Edelgard/Melmetal/Crafted Yoshi when it was initially pointed at Joker, then that'd be a completely different flavor of DLC than what was first suggested.

"These are going to be characters that are new to the series, just like Joker from Persona 5." See, this is where people get the idea that we're getting totally brand new series in the first place: the fact that he immediately follows "new to the series" with "just like Joker", which would suggest that the newcomers would be about as new to Super Smash Bros as Persona is, a series that had no forthcoming beyond a Tokyo Mirage Sessions spirit. I don't know what twisted logic gets applied in this case, but that's not a comparison that applies to the likes of Mario, or Zelda, or Fire Emblem, or any series already immersedly represented in Smash.

"Characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Bros." How does anyone say something this without any idea of who people anticipate? Does someone simply say that and assume that people don't anticipate Bandana Waddle Dee or Waluigi, if characters like those two were really on the way? Does anyone say that and think that Sora and Banjo don't really have that big of an anticipation thread in the wings for them, if they knew those two were coming?

So to recap, that's three separate statements from Reggie Fils-Aime himself that suggest the same radical idea. "Well, he's obviously overselling/doing PR/lying," some might argue. Right, like how Sakurai tried to tell us "not to expect too many new fighters" and that the rate of character reveals would slow down, but people chose to ignore those and ate up the Grinch hoax anyway. And that was to keep us from getting too excited.

No one in their right mind, let alone "I've cushioned Nintendo's poor decisions my whole life" Reggie Fils-Aime, would hype up the DLC using "Never Saw It Coming" Joker as the point of comparison if we were only going to get Edelgard-level reveals later down the line. Speaking from all the years that I've heard him talk in E3s and Directs, I've never seen Reggie as someone who's ever tried to mislead us or oversell us on how a game's content is going to turn out. He's always stayed honest about every Nintendo product that he's had to sell to us - if they're lacking, flawed, or not necessarily the GotY, he presents them simply as they are, using whatever's functional in them and Nintendo's best intentions as his arguments (which is all he really had to work with for many years). His job so much of the time is just trying to make everything look decent enough to be bought.

So whenever he gets something actually meaty to work with, he goes for it. He sells it up because it's worth it. When he says to get hyped for Breath of the Wild, Super Mario Odyssey, or the mysterious NX, he means it. Reggie knows what real substance looks like, and he would not suggest that the following DLC would be Joker-level reveals if they were not even comparable.

There's plenty of reasons why lots of people are trying to twist the direction back towards home-country Nintendo, but if you're really convinced we'll still be getting Waluigi or Geno after the direction Joker's taking this DLC pass, you're probably setting yourself up for a rude last surprise.

I don't think the argument is that Reggie was overhyping so much as making a "well duh!" statement. Reguardless of wether or not each character will be from a new franchise it changes nothing as far as speculation goes. We still know nothing. And besides, if the next four characters were...I dunno, Sora, Slime, Bandanna Dee, and Rayman both interpretations still hold up.

 

[Ornl]

It is necessary to empty his glass to be able to fill it again.
Renouncing Geno, Poochy, Bandana Dee, Sylux, Pokemon 8th, Porky, Xenoblade..., it is possible to think again, and better. How could you have discovered for yourself that Joker was going to be in DLC? The answer was here: Persona 5 is the first favorite game of Japaneses: https://www.dualshockers.com/persona-5-best-game-time-famitsu/. Now, in which new direction to look for brain Sakurai together?

There are only 12 new non-Echo fighters for Ultimate, it seems obvious that these are different from different series, and different publishers for non-Nintendo content. No license will have had 9 or 4 non-Echo representations: Mario/Pokemon 8 - Zelda 6 - Fire Emblem 5 - DK/Metroid/Kirby/Starfox 3. Not 4. There will be only one character Square-Enix, so it is not possible to have several fighters among Erdrick, Chrono, Sora, 2B, Lara Croft...

 

[shocktarts17]

I want to highlight some other parts that people seem to overlook (and yes, they're word-for-word quotations). When someone says "this gives you a flavor about how we're approaching the DLC", it usually suggests that a direction is being taken, one whose general trajectory can be inferred based on whatever the example was (e.g. Joker). If the direction was really headed towards the likes of Edelgard/Melmetal/Crafted Yoshi when it was initially pointed at Joker, then that'd be a completely different flavor of DLC than what was first suggested.

While I think you make a few leaps in what you're saying this stood out to me (bolded for reference.) The problem with trying to say that you can use Joker to path the "trajectory" of the DLC defies basic physics, you can't calculate trajectory with only one point of data.

-Joker could point to the DLC being all third party
-Joker could point to the DLC being all promotional picks if rumors of the Persona 5 port to Switch are to be believed
-Joker could point to the DLC being all popular characters from popular games
-Joker could point to the DLC being all mask wearers

Until we know the next DLC fighter its hard to make any assumptions from just one fighter.

 

[GoodGrief741]

While I think you make a few leaps in what you're saying this stood out to me (bolded for reference.) The problem with trying to say that you can use Joker to path the "trajectory" of the DLC defies basic physics, you can't calculate trajectory with only one point of data.

-Joker could point to the DLC being all third party
-Joker could point to the DLC being all promotional picks if rumors of the Persona 5 port to Switch are to be believed
-Joker could point to the DLC being all popular characters from popular games
-Joker could point to the DLC being all mask wearers

Until we know the next DLC fighter its hard to make any assumptions from just one fighter.

I think the point is that while we can’t narrow it down, we can assume that if Joker is emblematic of the characters, then DLC will likely not be, say, first-party characters, or characters that did well on the ballot, or retro characters. While there are a lot of things Joker is, there’s also a lot of things he’s not.

 

[shocktarts17]

I think the point is that while we can’t narrow it down, we can assume that if Joker is emblematic of the characters, then DLC will likely not be, say, first-party characters, or characters that did well on the ballot, or retro characters. While there are a lot of things Joker is, there’s also a lot of things he’s not.

But it could still be first-party if they are going promotional characters, or retro if they are going popular characters (i.e. Banjo/Geno). I think until we get a second DLC fighter we just can't make too many assumptions about the DLC that we couldn't already make before (it won't be people who no one knows since that won't sell).

 

[RileyXY1]

I think the point is that while we can’t narrow it down, we can assume that if Joker is emblematic of the characters, then DLC will likely not be, say, first-party characters, or characters that did well on the ballot, or retro characters. While there are a lot of things Joker is, there’s also a lot of things he’s not.

Yeah. We need to know more DLC characters in order for us to narrow down what the DLC characters will be. One character isn't enough.

 

[Door Key Pig]

So like, legitimately, would it be fruitless to have a tiny bit of hope that one of the five DLC is a Rhythm Heaven character in the event they wanted at least one brand new Nintendo IP to the series breaking up the other hypothetical third party ones that also has little significant representation in Ultimate unlike other viable Nintendo IPs and maybe significant enough a fanbase in Japan to warrant it? Prolly not from just looking at the first line I've wrote lol.

 

[RileyXY1]

He just said that all the DLC characters are newcomers. I believe that there will be at least one first party DLC character.

 

[SPEN18]

Do you guys remember that one time in the distant past when Sakurai had just revealed K Rool to us and, in the accompanying Famitsu column, said that he referred to the Smash ballot when choosing characters? And then a lot of people thought we'd get at least one or two more ballot characters but...we didn't. It could be a similar situation here. Now, I actually do think that there's a real chance that DLC is all third party and most Nintendo characters seem to have low chances. I also think that Joker is bad news for a lot of first party characters. Overall, my expectations are pretty low for DLC, and I'm not yet convinced that I'll buy a single fighter. But I don't think the door is 100% closed yet, and I also don't think that Reggie's comments have much to do with my expectations for DLC.

 

[SmashChu]

So like, legitimately, would it be fruitless to have a tiny bit of hope that one of the five DLC is a Rhythm Heaven character in the event they wanted at least one brand new Nintendo IP to the series breaking up the other hypothetical third party ones that also has little significant representation in Ultimate unlike other viable Nintendo IPs and maybe significant enough a fanbase in Japan to warrant it? Prolly not from just looking at the first line I've wrote lol.

Probably, but who knows. People didn't think Joker was going to happen.

He just said that all the DLC characters are newcomers. I believe that there will be at least one first party DLC character.

Its pretty sad when we are questioning whether the Nintendo fighting game will add Nintendo characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's a Crossover game that mostly stars Nintendo characters. They aren't pulling the Nintendo All-Star card anymore.

We only have a precedent of Joker, which implies that they may all be 3rd parties. It's not sad at all. It's people not accepting the game isn't only focused on Nintendo-owned content. It's pretty normal to expect more than Nintendo. It'a also business-oriented. There's a lot more people to gather that play other systems with 3rd parties than there is to only try and grab from the Nintendo crowd, who already purchased the game. They want more sales. Only appealing to one set of fans is bad. I'd expect no more than 2 other Nintendo DLC at best and wouldn't be surprised whatsoever if the rest were already 3rd party after Joker, nor have an issue with that.

The only real thing being missed otherwise could be stuff like Echo DLC(Dixie, for instance), but she may never be playable anyway. Sakurai's original idea was her as a combo character with Diddy. It's not impossible he hasn't been able to capture the actual plans he had with her yet. Could be that the exact style of co-op gameplay he planned won't work out. It could be he isn't interested in any partner he could give her(like Kiddy Kong). It could be she wasn't as requested as King K. Rool and became lower priority.

 

[shocktarts17]

It's a Crossover game that mostly stars Nintendo characters. They aren't pulling the Nintendo All-Star card anymore.

We only have a precedent of Joker, which implies that they may all be 3rd parties. It's not sad at all. It's people not accepting the game isn't only focused on Nintendo-owned content. It's pretty normal to expect more than Nintendo. It'a also business-oriented. There's a lot more people to gather that play other systems with 3rd parties than there is to only try and grab from the Nintendo crowd, who already purchased the game. They want more sales. Only appealing to one set of fans is bad. I'd expect no more than 2 other Nintendo DLC at best and wouldn't be surprised whatsoever if the rest were already 3rd party after Joker, nor have an issue with that.

The only real thing being missed otherwise could be stuff like Echo DLC(Dixie, for instance), but she may never be playable anyway. Sakurai's original idea was her as a combo character with Diddy. It's not impossible he hasn't been able to capture the actual plans he had with her yet. Could be that the exact style of co-op gameplay he planned won't work out. It could be he isn't interested in any partner he could give her(like Kiddy Kong). It could be she wasn't as requested as King K. Rool and became lower priority.

Personally I still think its a little sad. I don't think 3rd party reps are inherently bad for Smash but I, like I'm sure many others as well, only had Nintendo consoles growing up because I couldn't afford to have more than one. So when a 3rd party character gets in who doesn't have Nintendo history over a character who does it feels like Nintendo is ignoring their more loyal fans to try and make a quick buck. I know that 3rd party characters have their own fans and I know that there are loyal Nintendo fans who would still love to see 3rd party characters in Smash, heck I even get that it makes good business sense to reach a wider audience but I still would rather see Nintendo be the focus and 3rd party reps be chosen by their Nintendo history not by how popular they are.

I think there are still plenty of good Nintendo characters who would make great additions to Smash and don't feel like 3rd party characters with no Nintendo history add anything a Nintendo character couldn't.

It's hardly a logical thing, just an emotional sense of loyalty I guess.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Personally I still think its a little sad. I don't think 3rd party reps are inherently bad for Smash but I, like I'm sure many others as well, only had Nintendo consoles growing up because I couldn't afford to have more than one. So when a 3rd party character gets in who doesn't have Nintendo history over a character who does it feels like Nintendo is ignoring their more loyal fans to try and make a quick buck. I know that 3rd party characters have their own fans and I know that there are loyal Nintendo fans who would still love to see 3rd party characters in Smash, heck I even get that it makes good business sense to reach a wider audience but I still would rather see Nintendo be the focus and 3rd party reps be chosen by their Nintendo history not by how popular they are.

I think there are still plenty of good Nintendo characters who would make great additions to Smash and don't feel like 3rd party characters with no Nintendo history add anything a Nintendo character couldn't.

It's hardly a logical thing, just an emotional sense of loyalty I guess.

One that Sakurai has proven he cares little about. Same with Nintendo. Business comes first, not purist loyalty. It's why they opt for many 3rd parties, to help sell the system and get more people interested. They never were in their own bubble from the start, using 3rd party stuff to sell the NES too. They knew the purity was pointless right away. It doesn't help. Smash was never about Nintendo purity. It was, at first, about making sure it had characters that people would recognize. It was just way easier during Smash 64 to use characters Nintendo already owned since it was a project that was made strictly for the 64. And I think this was before Sakurai made his own company, meaning it's an in-house project. They couldn't make it sell well on generic characters(who also shared the same model that Captain Falcon got). So since then, the focus was on notable characters, with the only extremely obscure being Nintendo-owned. Every 3rd party has been iconic or niche, but nobody truly obscure. Bayonetta, as noted, was still pretty well known, but nowhere on the same degrees as the rest, who were huge.

I can't see it as sad, because I see it as the right way to go. Sales should come before sticking to your own bubble. That's just plain smart. It's a business-based game. Nostalgia is fine. We have more than enough of it. But trying to only appeal to a small portion of gamers is room for disaster. There's nothing sad about what's happening. It's people not looking at the full picture instead.

I also don't believe in Nintendo purist loyalty being anything but a bad thing, so eh. People need to get out of their bubbles and look at the full picture. Snake and Sonic were in consideration even during Melee, and the only reason was given they couldn't be in was because it was too late into development. There was nothing to suggest that a Nintendo factor ever mattered. And the only actual character at this time where some Nintendo factor mattered is Bayonetta, and we still lack information that makes that 100% clear.

 

[shocktarts17]

One that Sakurai has proven he cares little about. Same with Nintendo. Business comes first, not purist loyalty. It's why they opt for many 3rd parties, to help sell the system and get more people interested. They never were in their own bubble from the start, using 3rd party stuff to sell the NES too. They knew the purity was pointless right away. It doesn't help. Smash was never about Nintendo purity. It was, at first, about making sure it had characters that people would recognize. It was just way easier during Smash 64 to use characters Nintendo already owned since it was a project that was made strictly for the 64. And I think this was before Sakurai made his own company, meaning it's an in-house project. They couldn't make it sell well on generic characters(who also shared the same model that Captain Falcon got). So since then, the focus was on notable characters, with the only extremely obscure being Nintendo-owned. Every 3rd party has been iconic or niche, but nobody truly obscure. Bayonetta, as noted, was still pretty well known, but nowhere on the same degrees as the rest, who were huge.

I can't see it as sad, because I see it as the right way to go. Sales should come before sticking to your own bubble. That's just plain smart. It's a business-based game. Nostalgia is fine. We have more than enough of it. But trying to only appeal to a small portion of gamers is room for disaster. There's nothing sad about what's happening. It's people not looking at the full picture instead.

I also don't believe in Nintendo purist loyalty being anything but a bad thing, so eh. People need to get out of their bubbles and look at the full picture. Snake and Sonic were in consideration even during Melee, and the only reason was given they couldn't be in was because it was too late into development. There was nothing to suggest that a Nintendo factor ever mattered. And the only actual character at this time where some Nintendo factor mattered is Bayonetta, and we still lack information that makes that 100% clear.

Like I said its not a logical thing, I see how adding 3rd parties benefits Nintendo but I just feel like it would make more sense if those same 3rd parties had done more for Nintendo before by putting their games on Nintendo systems. I have no issues with 3rd party characters who have been on Nintendo consoles as I see them as part of Nintendo's history as well.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Like I said its not a logical thing, I see how adding 3rd parties benefits Nintendo but I just feel like it would make more sense if those same 3rd parties had done more for Nintendo before by putting their games on Nintendo systems. I have no issues with 3rd party characters who have been on Nintendo consoles as I see them as part of Nintendo's history as well.

That assumes the whole "Nintendo importance" is a requirement.

I get why people have that feeling, but it's been made clear it isn't an important factor at all. When Sakurai says "forget console wars", he means it. He just doesn't care about that. I doubt Nintendo does either at this point. Cloud is proof of that. He never had any importance to Nintendo and was still fine with them. I also highly doubt they would've said no to Joker if he hadn't appeared in the Q2 game. That wasn't important. What was was the character being interesting and would would out well with the actual owners of the IP.

This is part of why I doubt any of the Fighter's Pass has a strong chance for any 1st party characters. There's few that aren't already in major roles, or don't have their own issues. Dixie already has an issue making her work right, which could be why she isn't in Ultimate(I explained other possibilities). That doesn't leave many others either. Especially if AT's and stage appearances are a character's death sentence for playable. So who is actually left now? I honestly can't think of many that aren't already done for in some way, so it isn't hard to see why them all being 3rd party makes a lot of sense. Many of them don't already have a huge role. Like, besides Sylux and maybe Porky... what's next? Elma maybe? The list is really tiny and they pretty much removed anything from ARMS too, their other big one. The Fighter's Pass will not be Echoes, so even Octolings are unlikely(though they could be other DLC). There's just way more choices with 3rd parties, and also would clearly do better for the game since it's an extreme minority that believe in the purist stuff.

 

[Door Key Pig]

Probably, but who knows. People didn't think Joker was going to happen.

If they end up making a bunch of distinctive Rhythm Heaven Mii costumes (Karate Joe, Tibby, Chorus Kids) to purchase, then the dream is then totally dead lol. Like it was for K. Rool back in Smash 4's days.

 

[shocktarts17]

That assumes the whole "Nintendo importance" is a requirement.

I get why people have that feeling, but it's been made clear it isn't an important factor at all. When Sakurai says "forget console wars", he means it. He just doesn't care about that. I doubt Nintendo does either at this point. Cloud is proof of that. He never had any importance to Nintendo and was still fine with them. I also highly doubt they would've said no to Joker if he hadn't appeared in the Q2 game. That wasn't important. What was was the character being interesting and would would out well with the actual owners of the IP.

This is part of why I doubt any of the Fighter's Pass has a strong chance for any 1st party characters. There's few that aren't already in major roles, or don't have their own issues. Dixie already has an issue making her work right, which could be why she isn't in Ultimate(I explained other possibilities). That doesn't leave many others either. Especially if AT's and stage appearances are a character's death sentence for playable. So who is actually left now? I honestly can't think of many that aren't already done for in some way, so it isn't hard to see why them all being 3rd party makes a lot of sense. Many of them don't already have a huge role. Like, besides Sylux and maybe Porky... what's next? Elma maybe? The list is really tiny and they pretty much removed anything from ARMS too, their other big one. The Fighter's Pass will not be Echoes, so even Octolings are unlikely(though they could be other DLC). There's just way more choices with 3rd parties, and also would clearly do better for the game since it's an extreme minority that believe in the purist stuff.

I don't disagree that the Fighter's pass will likely be all 3rd party, but there are still plenty of Nintendo characters available that were made spirits when they didn't make it and to say that 3rd parties would be better than them is just a matter of opinion at that point.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't disagree that the Fighter's pass will likely be all 3rd party, but there are still plenty of Nintendo characters available that were made spirits when they didn't make it and to say that 3rd parties would be better than them is just a matter of opinion at that point.

Indeed. I think 3rd parties would do fine for the fighter's pass, at least the first one.

And I didn't mean spirits. I can't think of any major ones that were AT'd and were pretty much thrown on stages. Ones that fully stand out. Most of the stand-outs were already AT's in Ultimate. The only two Zelda ones that heavily stand out that aren't AT's, but may be part of a stage, are Tingle and Impa. If Tingle is a goner due to his role, that leaves Impa, who could possibly be an Echo, which already removes her as an option from the Fighter's Pass.

Any ideas you have of who could work? Besides Sylux and Porky(and the ones I mentioned previously)?

 

[shocktarts17]

Indeed. I think 3rd parties would do fine for the fighter's pass, at least the first one.

And I didn't mean spirits. I can't think of any major ones that were AT'd and were pretty much thrown on stages. Ones that fully stand out. Most of the stand-outs were already AT's in Ultimate. The only two Zelda ones that heavily stand out that aren't AT's, but may be part of a stage, are Tingle and Impa. If Tingle is a goner due to his role, that leaves Impa, who could possibly be an Echo, which already removes her as an option from the Fighter's Pass.

Any ideas you have of who could work? Besides Sylux and Porky(and the ones I mentioned previously)?

Sorry I'm not sure I'm following, are you asking which characters would work from the Assist Trophies and Stage backgrounds?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sorry I'm not sure I'm following, are you asking which characters would work from the Assist Trophies and Stage backgrounds?

Which 1st parties would make for good characters that aren't already AT's and part of the stages. So opposite of what you said.

 

[shocktarts17]

Which 1st parties would make for good characters that aren't already AT's and part of the stages. So opposite of what you said.

Bandana Waddle Dee, Elma like you said, Andy, King Boo, Rex and Pyra, the Baby Mario bros, several Pokemon would probably all work, a bunch of other Zelda characters (the champions, Ravio, Vaati, Ganon), someone from Rhythm Heaven. That's just first party who aren't Assist Trophies or part of a stage, but even then the ATs have several characters who would probably work as fighters still.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Bandana Waddle Dee, Elma like you said, Andy, King Boo, Rex and Pyra, the Baby Mario bros, several Pokemon would probably all work, a bunch of other Zelda characters (the champions, Ravio, Vaati, Ganon), someone from Rhythm Heaven. That's just first party who aren't Assist Trophies or part of a stage, but even then the ATs have several characters who would probably work as fighters still.

Rex is already a Mii Costume, so highly unlikely for the first Fighter's Pass. This seems his final role instead, as he's part of the FP too. That was clearly what he'd be instead of regularly playable in some way. He could be part of the second Fighter's Pass, though. But it's clear what he'll be for the first one.

Champions are too connected as a group. They were never likely to begin with because they were always all or nothing. The fact they weren't AT's is disappointing though. Rhythm Heaven has no de facto and easy choice. Chorus Kids were considered, but beyond that, nobody stands out for sure. The issue is how to make the rhythm gameplay translate to Smash well, which is possibly why it never happened, regardless of who they could choose. As we saw with Donkey Kong, his previous Final Smash was extremely difficult to use properly, so they might be out of the running for balance issues. Rest I'll give you, though.

 

[shocktarts17]

Rex is already a Mii Costume, so highly unlikely for the first Fighter's Pass. This seems his final role instead, as he's part of the FP too. That was clearly what he'd be instead of regularly playable in some way. He could be part of the second Fighter's Pass, though. But it's clear what he'll be for the first one.

Agree 100% but since you hadn't mentioned Mii costumes I figured I'd throw him on the list to pad my numbers lol

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Agree 100% but since you hadn't mentioned Mii costumes I figured I'd throw him on the list to pad my numbers lol

It wasn't the Mii costume so much as the fact he's part of that Fighter's Pass specifically. I don't think Mii costumes mean anything alone. It was that way for Smash For, but that was also the first game with proper DLC. I'd say any Mii Costume that is part of the Fighter's Pass is implied to be a character who wouldn't be a regularly playable character. It's a reasonable conclusion.

On another note, it's ironic that Mythra got more censored than Pyra.

 

[shocktarts17]

On another note, it's ironic that Mythra got more censored than Pyra.

Honestly I think its a case of shorts vs skirt there, but since they had to censor her because of the skirt they just gave her leggings to make it look nice. The weird part is that since they are 2D images not 3D models its not like anyone was going to be looking up her skirt or anything lol.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly I think its a case of shorts vs skirt there, but since they had to censor her because of the skirt they just gave her leggings to make it look nice. The weird part is that since they are 2D images not 3D models its not like anyone was going to be looking up her skirt or anything lol.

True. It also made her look more sexy, as the fanart came tumbling after. Pyra should've had more censoring though due to the style of clothing.

Regardless, Pyra might get changes if she's in proper gameplay as well. A 3D model makes a huge difference.

 

[shocktarts17]

True. It also made her look more sexy, as the fanart came tumbling after. Pyra should've had more censoring though due to the style of clothing.

Regardless, Pyra might get changes if she's in proper gameplay as well. A 3D model makes a huge difference.

Yeah personally I think Mythra looks great with the new look and played XC2 in spite of the ridiculous fan service not because of it lol I'd love to see Pyra get a similar look. Personally seeing (the massive end game spoiler)'s more conservative design made me wish Pyra/Mythra looked more like that.

 

[SPEN18]

Regardless of likelihood, there are plenty of Nintendo characters and series that would work fantastically well in Smash.

And yes, Nintendo is a business and makes certain decisions because of it; however, I don't really base any of my personal roster opinions on that. If a character is a notable piece of Nintendo history and they would make for a fun PC, then I don't care much about how many dollars they'll make for Nintendo. Just because you understand someone's reasoning doesn't mean that you agree with it lol.