Newbie Mafia 7! Canceled!

[Mayling]

EBWOP: The funny thing I mean to relate in game.

 

[Swiss]

Re-read.

The_Guide has been useless and scummy and although I like the dude, he should go.

The case on X1-12 worries me. Imo it is clear he is simply not familiar with the game, what he has done is itself not scummy, everytime he has 'lied' or 'contradicted' it has pretty much been to cover up his experience levels as opposed to lying to get a player lynched or save himself. The play which he has done is thus, to me, not scummy and not worthy of a lynch. He is however, not an asset to the town, and a such could 'go' and I wouldn't mind (no offense dude, just play more games). I cannot stress this enough, I DO NOT think X1-12 is scum.

What I really, really don't like is the vehemence with which Cello has pushed this lynch. I also do not like the 'play well' pressure Cello tried to put on me to not lynch him. I am concerned Cello could be scum diverting the game in whichever way he pleases and as such, although I am more confident of The_Guide being scum, I feel the risk of Cello being scum is too great to the future gain of town.

Clearly there are days left until the deadline so I want to hear Cello's response before I place a hammer, plus the fact that I am clearly unsure of my willingness to hammer. I think a great deal of my suspicion comes from his bordering on offensive, arrogant and illogical play style, which I realise is not necessarily scummy.

@Other players - what are your opinions on this? Why should The_Guide go instead of Cello? Why should Cello go instead of The_Guide? What do you think of the case on X1-12? Am I being unreasonable? I would like a stance from each and every player on this, if that's OK.

@ Mod: Replace in anyone, activity>appropriate skill set

 

[Swiss]

And you know what, after reading through this, X1-12 IS pretty **** useful to town, maybe going so far as to say one of the more useful players to us. I'm pretty happy to trust any and all hunches the guy gets.

Sure this looks like me buddying up to the guy, but that's not a first in this game

 

[Mayling]

@Other players - what are your opinions on this? Why should The_Guide go instead of Cello? Why should Cello go instead of The_Guide? What do you think of the case on X1-12? Am I being unreasonable? I would like a stance from each and every player on this, if that's OK.

@ Mod: Replace in anyone, activity>appropriate skill set

Cello Marl posted: 29
the Guide posted: 16

Cello Marl also doesn't disappear for 5 days when the slightest pressure is placed on him, allowing X1-12 to take the heat.

Swiss don't hammer Cello. I suggest against it. Cello is active and he is being harsh it's true. But is this a game of "That guy is mean, let's vote him off the island"? No. It is not. This game may be about outwit and outplaying but I suggest trying to overlook Cello's harshness.

Cello I suggest you trying to phrase your aguements in a kinder way.

Why did you ask if you were being unreasonable? Unreasonable against what? I am confused on this question.

I find x1-12 to be scummy. He is contradictory in several places. maybe it would help if you pointed out what about his play you see that is towny instead of scummy.

Swiss you left out Riddle. What do you think about him?

 

[Mayling]

How did you find X1-12 useful?

 

[Swiss]

It's not him being rude I have a problem with, it's been his irrelevant questioning and ignoring answers. Asking questions that are irrelevant then ignoring the answers isn't pro gaming imo. I'd never hammer a player as I think their play style is poor, this is why I literally asked if I was playing unreasonably against Cello, I DO NOT WANT TO DO THAT. I think you missed my point somewhat but nevermind. It hasn't been as bad in recent posts, so the play is evolving.

To me, X1-12 is a pretty unbiased character, he hasn't been attacking unreasonably against the case on him, which shows he is more focused on scum hunting then distorting the game play, def. a player I'd like to see alive 2mo i.e. we don't lynch him.

 

[Swiss]

Don't think Riddle is scum, but I'd like to focus more on him 2mo. I don't really have a stance on him as of yet.

 

[Mayling]

So your lynch pool is Cello and The Guide?

 

[Purple]

I would like everyone in this game to vote on whether not The Guide will be replaced with 'Tom' or not. The majority is 5/9, I'm going to go on the assumption one vote is already pro-replace for the guide.

 

[Swiss]

I'm pro replacement.

This does not necessarily remove T_G from my lynch pool.

@ May - They are the two players of whom I am most suspicious, yes.

 

[Mayling]

Do you think they're scum partners? Or SvT?

 

[Swiss]

Realistically, they probably won't both be scum. I wouldn't like to focus more OR less on one based on the others flip. Though ofc if one flipped scum, I'd be more inclined to believe I was playing this game right.

 

[Cello_Marl]

@Mod: I don't care. Newbie games haven't been newbie games since Newbie 1, and frankly they should be advertised as "Introduction to DGames" to attract the right player base.

You can't win, Swiss. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine. When he does, Town, kill him, Guide/his replacement, and then X1-12 if the game isn't over. Vult, abandon your animosity toward Riddle, especially if I should die.

@Swiss: Why did you specifically challenge me to point out why Isuyaru wasn't scum, if pressuring Isuyaru was your goal? More to the point, why didn't you continue to pressure Isuyaru to talk until you got the information that you needed regardless of what anyone else may have said, since you knew you'd receive flak for your actions? Yes, I've asked this before, but I never got an answer.

You said "Cello probably isn't scum". How did you go back to believing I could be scum when the only events that occurred after that declaration were Guide asking to be replaced, and you being asked who you believed was scum?

"I feel the risk of Cello being scum is too great to the future gain of town." You want to kill me because I would be too dangerous if I was scum? Why exactly am I one of your two lynch targets? Why are you more comfortable lynching someone that would be more dangerous if he is scum compared to someone that you think is more likely to be scum?

[X1-12] is however, not an asset to the town, and a such could 'go' and I wouldn't mind (no offense dude, just play more games).

And you know what, after reading through this, X1-12 IS pretty **** useful to town, maybe going so far as to say one of the more useful players to us. I'm pretty happy to trust any and all hunches the guy gets.

You claimed to have "read through in decent detail" and yet still thought that X1-12 "could go" despite thinking he was town. It would be hypocritical of me to criticize that given my treatment of Riddle, but there is still something that is confusing; your reasoning for clearing X1-12 in the first place was his incompetence. How then, did you so completely 180 on your opinion of him after an hour of reading, saying you would trust all of his hunches? Does the same application of logic that brought you to this conclusion apply to Mayling, Isuyaru, Writer Kupo and Vult? If you are repeating the behavior you exhibited at the beginning of the game, why are you doing that?

 

[Circa]

@mod: I say no. Let it play out.

Unvote

@Writer Kupo: Do you really think the stuff you said makes me lynch-worthy, especially compared to X1-12?

I honestly don't find X1-12 to be lynchworthy, for the reasons that Swiss pointed out about his contradictions. I felt like that

What WIFOM? Where?

Sorry, the post itself wasn't exactly WIFOM. I mean it may be. I don't know. I call it WIFOM because I've just kinda lurked a couple of endings to games before where people say "Oh god I should have been more skeptical of the guy pulling 50% of the kills who ended up being Maf" or something along lines like those. In your post, you said to lynch a little under 50% of the people in the game because they seem most likely to be scum. I don't know if those are exactly similar, but it's still something for me to be skeptical about. Other occasions of WIFOM were just trying to rush lynches, which you did twice; once on Swiss and once on X1-12.

You're jumping the gun a lot, and every time you do it seems like following is kind of going blind. I've come to that conclusion after rereading Swiss' original posts and feeling as though he was more likely to be town, and I felt the same way as Swiss about X1-12's posts; thus why I didn't vote him or really even consider it.

How so?

My skepticism, mainly. I'm not gonna lie about that. My entire post was based around my skepticism on you. But then again, isn't this entire game basically designed on skepticism?

How so? Also, how does having the "greatest benefit" here indicate a greater probability of my being scum? Further, if I were to not die, wouldn't that cast doubt upon me, and increase the chances of my getting lynched as scum? Keep in mind that if the scum group includes a roleblocker, there is a 50/50 shot that the town has a doc/cop combo. If the roleblocker is killed Day 1 and the cop gets an innocent investigation on anyone other than the doctor, town can literally force a win. How would being out in the open be such a "great benefit" if I were the roleblocker?

I keep on going to explain, but I keep remembering the other possibilities as well, and see it as just a giant mind****. I hate mind****s, so I'm dropping it.

You've shown me some sort of light.

I'm not ATTEMPTING to buddy Mayling, I AM buddying Mayling. In any case, how would that support me being a roleblocker, or even scum at all?

Because buddying is more beneficial to scum, like I said. It's obvious you're doing it, which goes to more WIFOM.

I guess a better way to put it is this: everything you're doing is so reckless that it's scaring me.

The way I feel right now is X1 is likely town, because despite being suspicious of Swiss, I feel the same way about X1's contradictions. Guide is most likely to come out mafia. Riddle I'm suspicious of being mafia, but not enough to lynch right now. He needs to be pressured more first. Cello I'm neutral to in that sense where he's likely town, but I wouldn't be surprised from a mafia reveal. I'm neutral-to-suspicious toward Swiss. All the rest I'm entirely neutral to.

My lynch pool is Guide and Swiss.

Sorry this post took a while. The way Cello posts kinda really gets under your blood; even when it's simple questions. Just something about it. Anyway, I was only questioning you, Cello, because my main two targets for lynch at the time were Guide and Swiss; the former of which wasn't posting and the latter of which was V/LA. I guess you'd call it a first attempt to make some sort of feasible argument against something; which obviously didn't work out at all.


Vote: The_Guide

 

[Circa]

EBWOP:

@Writer Kupo: Do you really think the stuff you said makes me lynch-worthy, especially compared to X1-12?

I honestly don't find X1-12 to be lynchworthy, for the reasons that Swiss pointed out about his contradictions. I felt like that with every single post that I can remember him making. Don't ask how I came to the conclusion. I guess you'd just call it a feeling I had.

 

[Riddle]

Cello, are you trying to annoy people? Seriously, I'm an intelligent person no matter how I'm playing in this game, I promise you. Yes I've been playing as a village idiot, but its a strategy that I've been trying out and now I think I've found scum.

A lot of the defense I've been seeing from you is one of two things:

1) Thats not scummy
2) Your points are irrelevant because you are scummy

Neither of these are legitimate defenses and point me torward scum. You admittedly buddy which is SCUMMY. It helps scum even if you aren't scum and honestly I think you are looking in all the wrong directions, whether on accident or because youre mafia.

I am NOT going to write out a case, its not going to change anyones mind and its not going to get you lynched. I just need you to change your play or I will continue to vote you.

Things I would like changed:

1) No buddying
2) EXPLAIN why things are scummy
3) No ad hominem defenses
4) Don't post walls of text, they don't help town imo. Conciseness is good, get to the point.

 

[Cello_Marl]

Let's take a moment to go over some stuff. WIFOM (Wine In Front Of Me) refers to the idea that players of a given alignment will (always/never) perform an action, and in response to that perception, a player will perform (that action/the opposite action), so as to appear to be a part of the (same/opposite) faction. "WIFOM situations" are often a bad basis for an argument, but make excellent supplemental/circumstantial evidence. The situation Kupo described specifically hasn't actually happened yet because no one has died, but it does provide a good example. Let's say there is a game in which there are 15 players, 4 of whom are scum. One player leads the town, pushing against 3 of those scum players and ultimately getting them lynched, but only after one townie is lynched. "He/she can't be scum, he pushed against all of those scum players! He must be town." is an example of WIFOM in this situation; why would scum do that? It makes no sense. Which is why a scum player would do it to garner trust. Another example of WIFOM in this situation would be "Why hasn't scum killed that player for pushing against them so effectively? He must be scum."

Instead of viewing these as absolutes, players should examine the facts that permeate these situations. What reasons did that player use to go after those players? Were they actually reasonable? Did that player ever actively try to dissuade the lynches of those players, and then changed his mind when it was obvious that was the direction the town was going to take? If the player's reasons were excellent right up until the next-to-last scum was lynched, then suddenly his/her reasons suddenly no longer make sense, then he is more likely to be scum.

I guess you'd call it a first attempt to make some sort of feasible argument against something; which obviously didn't work out at all.

I disagree that it didn't work out at all. Interrogating others doesn't necessarily mean that you think that person is scum. Realizing that a person is town (and recognizing when other people do not come to that same conclusion) is a very valuable skill.

Let me use you as an example, if you don't mind. You said "Guide is most likely to come out mafia". Why do you believe this? It could be argued that you were trying to jump on the most convenient lynch, especially considering that you stated that you did not want to have a replacement for him. From his statements, he's probably not going to come back; if we don't replace him, we lynch him. Also, what is convincing you that Swiss is a likely mafia?

I'm asking these questions now to dig at the points that I made at the beginning of this post. Even if one of them turns out to be scum, why were you on them in the first place? This serves double-duty; if you are town, it prevents scum from perverting your actions and painting them in a scummy manner, and if you are scum, it may reveal your true intentions.

@Riddle: "That's not scummy" is an appropriate defense, when I actually show that a given point isn't scummy. I'm not giving you free reign to believe what you want just because it will endear me to you like Swiss did; when you're wrong, you're wrong, and it's my job to correct you, both in terms of winning for my faction (town) and as my duty as an IC. Also, where did I claim that someone's "points were irrelevant because he/she was scummy"?

[Buddying] helps scum even if you aren't scum and honestly I think you are looking in all the wrong directions, whether on accident or because youre mafia.

How so, concerning buddying? Also, I've pushed against Swiss and X1-12 (although I agree with Guide being scum, I haven't really said much against him, something I should rectify soon). You agreed that X1-12 was scummy, given that he's your second lynch pick. Swiss is all the wrong directions? On a less rhetorical note, how can you believe I'm moving in "all the wrong directions" when you agree with at least half of them?

Also, what specifically do you need me to explain?

 

[Riddle]

All the wrong directions is 2/3 since you clearly think that guide is scum.

Buddying allows mafia to seem more townish if they are seen to be linked with a true townie.

I agree that 'thats not scummy' is an appropriate defense when you back it up well.

Its not that you came right out and said 'these points are irrelevant because this guy is scummy' its the fact that you clearly don't vaule any points of people you see as 'below you'

Quickly reading people is a skill that I possess, a skill you may some day hope to acheive, however doubtful that may be (after all, the Newbie 2 player should be the IC, not the Newbie 3 player. Funny how life works out). There is no other explanation, although I am forced admit it was a mistake to play to my full level of ability with the likes of you.

This is a GREAT example of ad hominem. Seriously, get a grip. You're almost as bad as Overswarm. I can guarantee you can't read me as well as you think since you have the wrong faction.

I don't need you to explain anything, just adhere to my points please.

Did I answer all your questions?

 

[Cello_Marl]

[Buddying] helps scum even if you aren't scum

Buddying allows mafia to seem more townish if they are seen to be linked with a true townie.

So, how does a townie buddying a fellow townie help mafia?

it's my job to correct you, both in terms of winning for my faction (town) and as my duty as an IC

I can guarantee you can't read me as well as you think since you have the wrong faction.

...what? Like, seriously, did you just admit to being scum?

You're making it very hard to believe you are town talking like that, man. If we have a cop, investigating you would be a great idea.

 

[Isuyaru]

@Mod: I have no problems with that replacement.

Cello, are you trying to annoy people? Seriously, I'm an intelligent person no matter how I'm playing in this game, I promise you. Yes I've been playing as a village idiot, but its a strategy that I've been trying out and now I think I've found scum.

A lot of the defense I've been seeing from you is one of two things:

1) Thats not scummy
2) Your points are irrelevant because you are scummy

Neither of these are legitimate defenses and point me torward scum. You admittedly buddy which is SCUMMY. It helps scum even if you aren't scum and honestly I think you are looking in all the wrong directions, whether on accident or because youre mafia.

I am NOT going to write out a case, its not going to change anyones mind and its not going to get you lynched. I just need you to change your play or I will continue to vote you.

Things I would like changed:

1) No buddying
2) EXPLAIN why things are scummy
3) No ad hominem defenses
4) Don't post walls of text, they don't help town imo. Conciseness is good, get to the point.

So even though you still say that you think Cello is scum and aren't satisfied with his defenses, you'd be willing to unvote him if he just changed his play style? Why?

@Other players - what are your opinions on this? Why should The_Guide go instead of Cello? Why should Cello go instead of The_Guide? What do you think of the case on X1-12? Am I being unreasonable? I would like a stance from each and every player on this, if that's OK.

Even when The_Guide was posting, he offered very little input (didn't really offer any information about players other than Cello and you that I can remember) and made some questionable stances on you. On the other hand, I strongly believe Cello's town at the moment due to meta from reading other games he's been in and the fact that his posts seem to be genuinely scumhunting.

As for X1-12, I don't feel like his confusion over the rules is scummy, but I am suspicious of his play outside of that.

Not sure what you mean with that last question.

Swiss, reposting from #160:

I see I COULD be scum saying this, but it really is a pretty bad strategy to draw attention to yourself in a game this inactive.

At the time you said this, you were voting Cello. I believe at this time, Cello had drawn a considerable amount of attention to himself, but in a different way. Should the logic of "scum would avoid drawing attention to themselves in this case" apply to Cello's actions? Why or why not?

 

[Swiss]

@Swiss: Why did you specifically challenge me to point out why Isuyaru wasn't scum, if pressuring Isuyaru was your goal? More to the point, why didn't you continue to pressure Isuyaru to talk until you got the information that you needed regardless of what anyone else may have said, since you knew you'd receive flak for your actions? Yes, I've asked this before, but I never got an answer.

That was way back when and I said it to try and maintain the strength of my convisctions to people. It was also useful to see if anyone did buddy him.

I didn't continue to pressure him as I was L-1. That's a pretty D*mn good reason imo. You wanna get lynched by one dumb player wielding the power over your life? (Irony to current situation)

You said "Cello probably isn't scum". How did you go back to believing I could be scum when the only events that occurred after that declaration were Guide asking to be replaced, and you being asked who you believed was scum?

It's called me being at a festival for three days and then reading the entire thread.

Will you PLEASE STOP asking the most pointless and ******** questions. I may have to hammer you by default, imo you damage the town process far too much.

 

[Swiss]

At the time you said this, you were voting Cello. I believe at this time, Cello had drawn a considerable amount of attention to himself, but in a different way. Should the logic of "scum would avoid drawing attention to themselves in this case" apply to Cello's actions? Why or why not?

I understand your point. But this is not a mutually exclusive situation, scum COULD do the 'unexpected'.

Imo his other posts far outweigh the ambiguity of this point. I agree that my post and thus your post do give town evidence, but I feel that this pales compared to the rest of his play.

 

[Riddle]

So, how does a townie buddying a fellow townie help mafia?

It gives them better nightkill targets because they see who townies trust. Also, how could you possibly know that mayling is town?

...what? Like, seriously, did you just admit to being scum?

You're making it very hard to believe you are town talking like that, man. If we have a cop, investigating you would be a great idea.

You specifically had me as part of your lynch pool. Great, now you are power role directing, even better. Did it ever occur to you that if cops listened to what people told them then mafia could fairly easily direct the cop toward townies?

And HOW am I talking. If you are going to call me an idiot at least tell everyone why.

So even though you still say that you think Cello is scum and aren't satisfied with his defenses, you'd be willing to unvote him if he just changed his play style? Why?

I'm not totally convinced that Cello is scum, but he certainly isn't helping town imo. If he fixes his style then i would be happy to switch to someone else who is more detrimental to town. Day 1 lynches are essentially a shot in the dark, mistakes are just as common as scum tells, so if someone is willing to be helpful than I'll overlook their mistakes/scumtells and vote someone who is still scummy. I'd still keep my eye on Cello though.

 

[Cello_Marl]

It's called me being at a festival for three days and then reading the entire thread.

Will you PLEASE STOP asking the most pointless and ******** questions. I may have to hammer you by default, imo you damage the town process far too much.

That question was hardly pointless. Being at a festival may be a good reason for forgetting specifics of a game. But why did you decide to say that I was probably not scum, especially when it is entirely unreasonable to believe I hadn't left at least an impression upon you (after all, every townie point presented in my favor "pales in comparison to the rest of my play" for your perception of my scumminess)? From your posts, it looks like you want us to believe you reread twice after getting back from that festival (something I'm not really inclined to believe about you anyway). Why did you think I was "probably not scum" from your first re-read, then going back to believing I was potentially scum after your second one? What specifically convinced you/changed your mind each time?

You are way too interested in getting town's permission for your actions. If you really thought I was scum, you'd have already hammered a while ago. It's obvious you just want Town to endorse your actions so you don't take any blame.

unvote Vote The Guide

Consider my vote equally on Guide and Swiss, and although I'm more interested in Guide's flip, I'd rather have Swiss's lynch.

 

[Swiss]

You are way too interested in getting town's permission for your actions.

It's called team work - you should try it.

I'm finding it almost impossible to differentiate between your ridiculous play style and scum tells. I cannot allow you to be a survivor, scum will never kill you and I simply cannot trust a player like you to be town. I am lynching also because of that pressure you tried to put on me eluding to the 'fact' that I would be a bad player if I lynched you as you would flip town.

If you are town - rethink your play style, this game is not just about scum hunting, but helping town in other respects such as not giving off scum tells left right and centre.

If you are scum - props

unvote vote Cello-Marl

 

[Purple]

Who will survive...​

Votes​

Cello_Marl ($$$$)*The_Guide, Riddle, X1-12, Swiss
Vult Redux ()*
Mayling ()*
The_Guide ($$$) *Mayling, Writer Kupo, Cello_Marl
X1-12 ()*Cello_Marl
Isuyaru()*
Swiss ()*
Riddle ($$) Vult_Redux, Isuyaru*
Writer Kupo () *​

Not Voting: no one ()​

It takes 5/9 to eliminate a player.
Deadline: 06/18/10 8:00pm EST​

...the liar game.​

 

[X1-12]

I am lynching

unfortunately, that's not a lynch. Writer took his vote off and voted for the guide instead, meaning cello is L-1, and guide L-2.

@Mod: Could you do another Vote count post?

 

[X1-12]

EBWOP: Ninja'd by the mod.


Also, I would say that my suspicion is in this order:
1.) Cello - almost certain
2.) Riddle/Guide - equally suspicious of each one, but not certain. I would like to question them later, however I'd be glad to leave it till Day 2.

 

[Swiss]

Well that's embarrassing. Thought I'd looked from the last vote count properly.

Bluntly, I'm happy for Guide or Cello to go. Guide is more likely to be scum but Cello...well I've already been into that.

 

[Purple]

I would like to inform you all that Tom will now be replacing The_Guide, and all of your votes will be transferred to him accordingly.

Who will survive...​

Votes​

Cello_Marl ($$$)* Riddle, X1-12, Swiss
Vult Redux ()*
Mayling ()*
Tom ($$$) *Mayling, Writer Kupo, Cello_Marl
X1-12 ()*
Isuyaru()*
Swiss ()*
Riddle ($$) Vult_Redux, Isuyaru*
Writer Kupo () *​

Not Voting: no one ()​

It takes 5/9 to eliminate a player.
Deadline: 06/18/10 8:00pm EST​

...the liar game.​

​

 

[Swiss]

Tom, you scum?

Who is scum?

What do you make of the case on Cello?

Why is the case on you null?

 

[Tom]

Hi. I'm town. I'm on post #132 of my read. I'll answer those and any other questions when I'm finished, as well as contribute what I think.

Expect it within 10 hours, because I know deadline is looming.

Man, I'd like some T-bone steak tonight.

 

[Tom]

First post should be amended by the mod to state that Writer Kupo is actually in this game, though from as much as I have read on Day 1, I wouldn't even know if he is or not.

 

[Purple]

Hmm, I noticed that I made an error in the voting, it's been changed.

 

[Swiss]

Hmm, I noticed that I made an error in the voting, it's been changed.

@ Mod Cello Marl is now voting two players


The_Guide ($$$) *Mayling, Writer Kupo, Cello_Marl
X1-12 ()*Cello_Marl

 

[Purple]

No he is not.

 

[Swiss]

Really?

Who will survive...


Votes

Cello_Marl ($$$$)*The_Guide, Riddle, X1-12, Swiss
Vult Redux ()*
Mayling ()*
The_Guide ($$$) *Mayling, Writer Kupo, Cello_Marl
X1-12 ()*Cello_Marl
Isuyaru()*
Swiss ()*
Riddle ($$) Vult_Redux, Isuyaru*
Writer Kupo () *

Not Voting: no one ()

It takes 5/9 to eliminate a player.
Deadline: 06/18/10 8:00pm EST


...the liar game.




Is what is on my screen, this is the penultimate vote count, FYI.

 

[Swiss]

Which I suppose doesn't actually matter now...

 

[Purple]

I edited it before you saw it I would assume.

 

[X1-12]

I'd like to have lynched someone by the 17th, because I don't want panic-lynching - is this unreasonable anyone?


@Mod: Is The Guide's vote meant to stay as it is for Tom?, because it still says The guide is voting for Cello