Newbie Mafia 7! Canceled!

[Swiss]

@Vult:



Less than 24 hours later...

Guide: I take everything back about Swiss...I just can't see him doing this as scum.
Riddle: To be honest I think cello is the current play.

And you wondered why I was worried about the Swiss that might get away. Understand now? Also, can you explain to Riddle why his beliefs are idiotic? I don't think he'll listen to me right now.

@Swiss: I see you've repeated the same "Oh, God, what's Cello thinking, his reactions sux, I wanted something from Isu, don't know what" trash that you've been spewing for a couple of pages. And what about the rest of it? Let me reprint it for your convenience, expanded a bit.

Why was the first post of yours for the game designed to attract the attention of the only person that would "understand" your selected play style, and associate yourself with a townie from another game, even down to the random vote? When he voted for you, why did you continue your obviously failed attempt? What useful information did you think this would this give to Daedalus and Writer Kupo? Why did you emulate Ryker's style (poorly) to elicit responses only to immediately clam up and become defensive when confronted with the expected responses to that sort of play? Why are you continuing to use your pathetic attempt at Ryker-style by voting for me without explaining your reasons? You say you are voting me for my "reactions", but what specifically attracted your attention? What have I done that is "indicative of scum play"? Should we believe it was merely a coincidence that you found me to be scummy after a pointed out your flaws? Why have you given no thoughts on the other people that bandwagoned against you before I did? Why did you offer no opinion on Isuyaru or Guide when they were stated they were willing to hammer you? Why do you believe you should not be liable for your words and actions? Why did you think that lying when directly asked if you were being serious was a good way to convince people of your opinions? Why are you not talking about anything that doesn't directly pertain to you, when you admit you have no good reads and/or aren't willing to disclose any information? Why should anyone agree with your assessment that my play is "indicative of scum play" when you offer no insight, especially in light of the fact that you were intentionally embracing liminality? Why did you not take the initiative and provide thoughts on...anyone, really, after Guide told you to start acting proactively in town's interests? What are those thoughts, if you must be poked and prodded?


Waaaaaaaaay too many questions in there.
Underlined questions are ridiculous or explained already. (Who the f*ck cares what information Deadalus and Kupo specifically could have got from it?)

Bolded question - For the last time, I DIDN'T get the expected response from ISU, which is what I needed, I got the expected flak from most players and votes on me which I expected, but I needed ISU TO BE TALKING BACK TO ME.

The heart of the complaint against you is that you aren't acting according to what you claim you're doing, and EVEN UP TO THIS POINT, you've done nothing to rectify to that problem. You've just tried to say anything and everything you can to prevent your own death.

I fail to see your point here. How am I lying? All I'm doing here has been to clarify what I did and why and spend half of it trying to figure out why you tunnel me so.

The heart of your complaint against me is that I found you to be scum quickly. In Popcorn, I was very strongly convinced of Sword's and Tom's guilt by post #28. I was right there, and I'll be right here. If it's enough, it's enough.

Well, just because you got it right once is NOT reason that you'll have got it right again. I guessed guide was doc last game, but he wasn't - thus whoever I think is doc atm CANNOT be doc this game?


You aren't even sure about what you think I thought about your actions? You claim I've misunderstood your positions, but it makes no difference to you whether or not such a hypothetical situation is a misunderstanding or not? That sounds like you just want to kill anyone that opposes you. No, wait, that's exactly what it is.

Let's say for a moment that I actually did misunderstand something; why did you vote for me with no reference to that end? Not allowing me to address any grievance you have with me does no one any good. What did you hope to accomplish other than to build negative sentiment against someone that opposes you?

I said 'accidentally or deliberately', you just assumed accidentally there. Personally, I feel it highly unlikely you've somehow managed to miss every key point I've made and repeatedly questioned me on it. Allow me to clarify - it feels as if you're being really dishonest about the whole thing (yes I do realise the astonishing irony here), it seems as if you are now asking me questions so pointless you are either clutching at straws or trying to force a lynch.


Who did you expect to pick up on a reference to a player in a game that no one other than you and Guide played in? How did you expect anyone to pick up on that in a NEWBIE game? Why say other players when The_Guide was your obvious patsy?

Look, I tried to signal to THE GUIDE BY PLAYING SIMILAR TO RYKER, but half of the contradictions I made such as "you voted me thus you must be scum" and "this vote isn't omgus as I don't like acronyms, fyi" could have been picked up by ANYONE.

^ See quote.

 

[Swiss]

Right I am now officially LA for one day and then unavailable for 3 days. I'll be back posting regularly on Monday but until then I'm travelling around houses 'till I reach the music festival.

 

[Purple]

Writer Kupo is on V/LA, he will be active on friday right before his replacement is necessary.

 

[Purple]

Daedalus4198 has been replaced by X1-12. All of you welcome him accordingly.

 

[X1-12]

Firstly: Hi everyone


Secondly: Why is it Isu that swiss wants to know so much about? E.G this:

I DIDN'T get the expected response from ISU, which is what I needed, I got the expected flak from most players and votes on me which I expected, but I needed ISU TO BE TALKING BACK TO ME

It seems that either swiss has either found isu as a quick scapegoat, OR they're both mafia just trying throw us off

FoS: Swiss





@Mod: hope its okay to ask, is this game one of the 4 possible set-ups on the first page?

 

[Swiss]

Secondly: Why is it Isu that swiss wants to know so much about? E.G this:


It seems that either swiss has either found isu as a quick scapegoat, OR they're both mafia just trying throw us off

I chose Isu as I didn't wanna pick an IC as they wouldn't feel threatened by pressure in RVS. The_Guide had seen it all before in our last game. I hadn't seen deadalus or Kupo post - so it was Riddle or Isu. No real reason as to why I chose Isu to be honest.


I haven't used Isu as a scapegoat at all, re-read my recent posts and you will see I was pressuring him to try and make him leak any information he had, admittedly I know pressuring Isu for the reasons I stated does not equate to me being town. But I haven't used him as a scapegoat, I admitted my entire case was fluff, I tried to signal this by the posts I've quoted several times above.

Uh, we could both be mafia trying to throw you off...not really something I can comment on to be honest, but it does seem pretty unlikely, especially considering the heaviness of Cello's weighting having to be town.

 

[Swiss]

Sorry...I misread your post. I'm not using Isu as a scapegoat for me looking like a pleb, but my entire 'pressuring Isu to make him leak info' DID hinge on the dude talking back to me and responding to the pressure. That is, imo, the reason it went so badly, had he posted more regularly I reckon I could have got more from him.


And hi.

 

[X1-12]

I haven't used Isu as a scapegoat at all, re-read my recent posts and you will see I was pressuring him to try and make him leak any information he had,

Allthough it IS possible you did randomly choose, if you did not, then you chose Isu as you know what role he had (meaning you are mafia). But if you DID randomly choose then throwing the threats around very fast seems quite an agressive style, typical of the mafia (Mafia are more rushed as there are less of them)

Vote: Swiss

 

[X1-12]

when i say typical of the mafia, i mean that style points more towards a mafia player.

 

[Swiss]

Allthough it IS possible you did randomly choose, if you did not, then you chose Isu as you know what role he had (meaning you are mafia). But if you DID randomly choose then throwing the threats around very fast seems quite an agressive style, typical of the mafia (Mafia are more rushed as there are less of them)

Vote: Swiss

Hold on. If I were mafia I would only know people's alignments. There are still doc/cop roles out there that I wouldn't know. And surely after what you've just said...no matter who I chose to pressure, you would have voted me. ****ed if I do, ****ed if I don't...

My aggressive start IS NOT necessarily scum, pressuring a player means that they let slip any tells, so if they are scum it is quite possible it will be made clear. It is also useful to see who tries to buddy or bus them. Also I completely disagree mafia are rushed here, they have no need to make huge cases and scum hunt, someone will be lynched everyday - all they need to do is make sure it isn't them, they don't need to make huge cases. I know I didn't go very aggressive on ANYONE really last time I was scum, and everyone believed me to be town.

 

[Swiss]

Allthough it IS possible you did randomly choose, if you did not, then you chose Isu as you know what role he had (meaning you are mafia).

EBWOP: I mean explain that logic, now.

FOS: x1-12

 

[Mayling]

I actually quite liked the playstyle. The posts themselves were contradictory in order to signal I didn't genuinely believe what I was saying yet still warrant Isu having to answer them.

This is contradictory and if anything is an indicator that you WEREN'T emulating Ryker's style. You call them stupid, yet you can that you liked the playstyle. You say the posts were contradictory to single what you were doing (pressuring Isu? Trying to get a read? How does contradictory help single this?) while reaching out to ONE player The_guide. All of this indicates you weren't emulating Ryker's style, but rather making a ridicule of it. How did you expect to get serious responses or gather information with the backbone you were riding off someone else's style if you yourself admit that all your posts were contradictory, short, and stupid? I don't understand.

So the posts themselves were intended to look so stupid and tunnelly that I couldn't be serious, I'd hoped people would pick up on the opportunity to pressure a player early on. The play style, imo, wasn't stupid - merely the posts which I deliberately made stupid. If anyone can actually see a real case on Isu in what I said...I'd like to hear it :/

Well. You accomplished your goal, technically. We chose you to pressure.

I wanted to be able to abandon my stance. My entire case was fluff, I don't actually want people to believe I believed it, if that makes sense. I got a read I'm reasonably happy with, if I get lynched and Cello is then as a result lynched and is scum lynch - I'll be happy.

I have to stop you there. I dislike the term "fluff" and if I can do anything to make it NOT USED IN A NEWBIE GAME, I will. And here's my chance.

For the one newbie out there, fluff is a term that I personally define as "filler to be filler." In my opinion, fluff does not exist in the world of mafia. Unless if the player is obviously posting "Man I'd like some t-bone steak tonight" then nothing should be considered FLUFF. Everything... EVERYTHING has a secret agenda behind it. Using the term fluff in arguments and defensives only helps serve to weaken and demean anything that is associated with it, and it is our duty as town players to find the meaning behind it.

For example, your case was not fluff. Your case, supposedly, was to imitate a player's style while they were town, to pressure Isu, to appear stupid and contradictory. It was not to post fluff to post fluff. Everyone is held accountable for their actions, and you can't just deem your actions as filler in hopes we'll drop it.

This post isn't so much as a call to lynch Swiss. I want Swiss to understand where he went wrong and why Cello is tunneling on him. I find the argument at this point to be TvT and hey, can we lynch the_guide instead? If anyone took advantage of the argument, it would be him.

Also Swiss, can you not do the "answer within quotes thing"? It 1) makes it hard to read and 2) undoubtedly makes it hard to respond.

Welcome to the game, our one active newbie.

 

[X1-12]

EBWOP: I mean explain that logic, now.

FOS: x1-12

If you chose him for a reason, (whatever reason), it means you are sure of his allignment (what other reason could there be?), and only mafia are sure of everyone's allignment

 

[Purple]

Firstly: Hi everyone


Secondly: Why is it Isu that swiss wants to know so much about? E.G this:


It seems that either swiss has either found isu as a quick scapegoat, OR they're both mafia just trying throw us off

FoS: Swiss





@Mod: hope its okay to ask, is this game one of the 4 possible set-ups on the first page?

Yes, the game is one of the four set-ups, the information of which set-up it is confidential

Also, make sure to bold any comments to me.

 

[Swiss]

This is contradictory and if anything is an indicator that you WEREN'T emulating Ryker's style. You call them stupid, yet you can that you liked the playstyle. You say the posts were contradictory to single what you were doing (pressuring Isu? Trying to get a read? How does contradictory help single this?) while reaching out to ONE player The_guide. All of this indicates you weren't emulating Ryker's style, but rather making a ridicule of it. How did you expect to get serious responses or gather information with the backbone you were riding off someone else's style if you yourself admit that all your posts were contradictory, short, and stupid? I don't understand.

Well, I failed at it. I aimed to put unjustified pressure on a player to try and get reads from him - the same as I saw and appreciated in newbie 6. Clearly mine and EVERYBODY ELSES definitions of style differ, so I'll suck it up and admit that.

Well. You accomplished your goal, technically. We chose you to pressure.

Thanks. :|

I have to stop you there. I dislike the term "fluff" and if I can do anything to make it NOT USED IN A NEWBIE GAME, I will. And here's my chance.

For the one newbie out there, fluff is a term that I personally define as "filler to be filler." In my opinion, fluff does not exist in the world of mafia. Unless if the player is obviously posting "Man I'd like some t-bone steak tonight" then nothing should be considered FLUFF. Everything... EVERYTHING has a secret agenda behind it. Using the term fluff in arguments and defensives only helps serve to weaken and demean anything that is associated with it, and it is our duty as town players to find the meaning behind it.

For example, your case was not fluff. Your case, supposedly, was to imitate a player's style while they were town, to pressure Isu, to appear stupid and contradictory. It was not to post fluff to post fluff. Everyone is held accountable for their actions, and you can't just deem your actions as filler in hopes we'll drop it.

Also Swiss, can you not do the "answer within quotes thing"? It 1) makes it hard to read and 2) undoubtedly makes it hard to respond. Sure, I'll try not to.

'kay and 'kay.

 

[Swiss]

If you chose him for a reason, (whatever reason), it means you are sure of his allignment (what other reason could there be?), and only mafia are sure of everyone's allignment

I did it precisely to FIND OUT his alignment. If I was sure of his alignment I would have to be scum, yes. But pressuring someone to try and figure out their alignment surely implies that I didn't know it. I'm sorry, but your logic really does make no sense. Is this your first game?


P.s. If I AM wrong here...can someone explain to me how.

 

[X1-12]

I did it precisely to FIND OUT his alignment. If I was sure of his alignment I would have to be scum, yes. But pressuring someone to try and figure out their alignment surely implies that I didn't know it. I'm sorry, but your logic really does make no sense. Is this your first game?


P.s. If I AM wrong here...can someone explain to me how.

I think you misunderstand me

if you did it to find out his allignment, then I understand you chose randomly, however IF you DID NOT CHOSE RANDOMLY then you had a reason and I cannot see any way you would have a reason unless you know his role

I understand you could have chosen randomly, but I was saying that assuming you weren't

 

[Swiss]

Ok, understood, I think.

Can you remove an FoS?

 

[Isuyaru]

Btw, I missed Isu's offer to hammer Swiss. I'd be fine with leaving him that honor, assuming that he is still willing to take it.

I missed it too, apparently. Where did I say this? I haven't considered hammering Swiss since I've already had my vote on him.

Also, The_Guide, I asked you something in post #101 in case you missed it. I'd still like an answer.

@X1-12: What is your stance on Cello vs Swiss?

if you did it to find out his allignment, then I understand you chose randomly, however IF you DID NOT CHOSE RANDOMLY then you had a reason and I cannot see any way you would have a reason unless you know his role

There are quite a few possible reasons, but I really don't understand how this is relevant regardless. He already said that it was random, so you're essentially saying "If he's lying about his intentions, he's scum" without giving any evidence that he is lying.

Unvote Vote: The_Guide
FoS: X1-12

 

[X1-12]

@X1-12: What is your stance on Cello vs Swiss?
]

I'm undecided, Cello seems to be talking alot of things twice and just being a bit on the wishy-washy side, Swiss arguements seem fairly legit

There are quite a few possible reasons, but I really don't understand how this is relevant regardless. He already said that it was random, so you're essentially saying "If he's lying about his intentions, he's scum" without giving any evidence that he is lying.

Unvote Vote: The_Guide
FoS: X1-12

perhaps it was somehwat irrelevant, but eliminating possibilities, for example if is proven he was lying, then its something to fall back on, but it probably was a bit of a waste of time sorry :/

 

[Mayling]

I'm undecided, Cello seems to be talking alot of things twice and just being a bit on the wishy-washy side, Swiss arguements seem fairly legit

Explain.

Most interested in the "Cello is being wishy-washy."

 

[Mayling]

Actually most interested in the "Why are you voting Swiss if you feel he is legit and Cello is the wishy washy one" question that needs to be answered.

 

[X1-12]

Swiss said this in response to cello and he does come across as a bit wishy washy

Underlined questions are ridiculous or explained already. (Who the f*ck cares what information Deadalus and Kupo specifically could have got from it?)

about voting for swiss, well i said his arguements, meaning his arguements vs cello, were fairly legit, his stratagy seems oddly very forward (atleast it does to me) which is curious. I actually had him down as not the kind of person who would vote me because I voted him but whatever

 

[X1-12]

if you are interested that post i quoted is number 121 and

 

[Swiss]

I actually had him down as not the kind of person who would vote me because I voted him but whatever

I didn't vote you.

I gave you a 'finger of suspicion' as you made a post which didn't make sense, you explained the post satisfactorily (ish) after.

 

[X1-12]

I didn't vote you.

I gave you a 'finger of suspicion' as you made a post which didn't make sense, you explained the post satisfactorily (ish) after.

I will come out and say:

I actually had him down as not the kind of person who would vote me because I voted him but whatever

was just trying to get a reaction, shameless and cheeky I know

 

[X1-12]

EBWOP

I actually had him down as not the kind of person who would vote me because I voted him but whatever

when I said that I was just trying to get a reaction, shameless and cheeky I know

 

[Purple]

Who will survive...​

Votes​

Cello_Marl ($$$)*The Guide, Swiss, Cello_Marl
Vult Redux ()*
Mayling ()*
The_Guide ($$) *Mayling, Isuyaru
X1-12 ()*
Isuyaru()*
Swiss ($)* Cello_Marl
Riddle () *
Writer Kupo () *​

Not Voting:X1-12, Writer Kupo, Vult_Redux ($$$)​

It takes 5/9 to eliminate a player.
Deadline: 06/18/10 8:00pm EST​

...the liar game.​

 

[Circa]

So I'm sitting in an airport right now and having what I'm assuming are hot flashes or some equivalent, and I'm kinda out of it. So I'll be honest and say that I only completely read up to page 7, and then basically skipped everything else for now. And I'm not even sure how much I can comprehend of everything up to page 7. It's kind of a giant blur right now. But simply for the sake of showing that I'm alive and getting into discussion as soon as possible, I'm making my intro post here. I'll finish reading after I get home (we start boarding soon and I won't get back until around midnight EST) and what have you.

Oh yeah, I was gone because I left for vacation last Thursday for a cruise, and we found out after getting on the ship that it cost $24 a day for the equivalent of Y2K DSL service. So yeah, we said **** that and went internetless for about a week. Sorry, but the internet isn't THAT important to me.

Hi, I'm Writer Kupo; shorten it to Writer or Kupo if you will, I don't care.

@Riddle: How do you know Writer Kupo?

@Writer Kupo: What are your thoughts on Riddle? How about the votes that piled up on Riddle and then on Swiss?

I'll answer both of these, considering Riddle's first meeting me was also my first meeting him. We were placed against each other in Round 1 of a Pokemon tournament here on SWF called the mono-color tournament. I beat him (in some pretty danged awesome and close matches; bar the first, which was a complete blow-out on his side), and after that we just got to talking on AIM and it went from there. I have no clue why he and I hit it off so well, but we did.

Riddle is a majorly cool person outside of the game, but I have no idea in. I'll be completely honest and say that although I'm not siding him as town at this moment in time (I obviously couldn't make that assumption for how little he's posted), it's rather likely that I'll be neutral to him for longer than others due to actually knowing him outside of the game, and more trusting of him as well for the exact same reason.

My thoughts on the first "bandwagon" toward Riddle was that it was merely harmless and kinda 'for fun', and really wasn't meant for anything but to see how he'd possibly react. As for his reaction, he seemed to play it off in a rather pacifist manner. He obviously wanted no flame over his head, so he quickly apologized to hopefully get rid of it. I wouldn't call this either town or scum. The following bandwagon on Swiss, at least in my opinion, was much more grounded and seemed rather feasible. I obviously can't speak from the last few pages, but what was said before that by Swiss, both in the way he talked before the bandwagon and after it occurred, seemed to give off a much more scum aura than town. I would go into detail, but I don't want to type up more for an opening post than I really think I need to; especially without all the information I probably should have had before making this post. So...sorry about that.

Nonetheless, I'm still giving the FoS.

FoS: Swiss

But like I said, I'm quite out of it and haven't read the last couple of pages. This could easily change.

 

[Riddle]

Hey writer. Help me win this game for town.

I'd like your complete thoughts on cello once you finish reading please.

 

[Vult Redux]

I keep starting to make a post and then getting distracted.

I'll get to questions and responses and stuff eventually. Promise.

 

[Swiss]

@ Mod: Why had cello voted himself on the most recent vote count? Is that Riddle's vote mistyped?

@ Kupo, nothing I can really say that I haven't already said. Notepad any questions you do get for me and I'll answer them when I get back (my limited access turned out to be more active than usual ^^)

Unvote Vote: The_Guide

I'm now gone.

 

[Purple]

Who will survive...​

Votes​

Cello_Marl ($$)*The_Guide, Riddle
Vult Redux ()*
Mayling ()*
The_Guide ($$$) *Mayling, Isuyaru, Swiss
X1-12 ()*
Isuyaru()*
Swiss ($)* Cello_Marl
Riddle () *
Writer Kupo () *​

Not Voting:X1-12, Writer Kupo, Vult_Redux ($$$)​

It takes 5/9 to eliminate a player.
Deadline: 06/18/10 8:00pm EST​

...the liar game.​

 

[Vult Redux]

Swiss

I take it you haven't read my post.

Which?

Isu

@Daedalus4198: What do you think about Riddle's FoS of Cello_Marl?

This gives Anti-Town vibes.

Mr. Guise

Swiss, the simple fact that you're playing so defensively is enough to make me suspicious of you.

Yeah, I don't really buy things like this.

The only time "defensiveness" is a tell is when they completely neglect offense. And even then, it may just so happens that there's so much to argue, they HAVE to focus on their defense.

He's not neglecting his defense at all. He's had his vote out and is making offenses.

No me gusta. I'll help this wagon out. Vote: The Guide

Riddle

To be honest I think cello is the current play. Predominantly his comment on hammering Swiss has led me to believd this.

Cello
vote: cello_marl

Pretty lazy reason, I think. There's so much WIFOM involved [why would scum out themselves by deliberately rushing a lynch? that it's a null tell.

Cello

@Vult:

Less than 24 hours later...

Guide: I take everything back about Swiss...I just can't see him doing this as scum.
Riddle: To be honest I think cello is the current play.

And you wondered why I was worried about the Swiss that might get away. Understand now? Also, can you explain to Riddle why his beliefs are idiotic? I don't think he'll listen to me right now.

If Swiss "got away" then there's probably a good reason for it. People move their vote when they think they find better evidence. It's not a bad thing that we've moved on to someone new when the evidence against Swiss was only strongest because no one else had any against them at that point in the game.

Why don't you think Riddle would listen to you?

Why do you direct this toward me specifically?

 

[Purple]

Please check the votes to make sure they are correct everyone.

 

[Cello_Marl]

@X1-12: Welcome to the game. Why did you ask if the set-up could be one other than one listed in the beginning post? How is an aggressive style indicative of a player being mafia? Also, you're bouncing back and forth on your opinions on me and Swiss. Who exactly were you calling wishy-washy and who's arguments were legit? In a lot of ways, it looks like you are trying to act in the same manner that Swiss was. Why, when you had a problem with it?

@Riddle: What about Swiss did you find to be scummy, and what changed your mind? Why do you find me to be scummy, if you do? If you don't, what information do you think town would gain from my lynch, specifically how would you interpret other people's alignment based on my flip? Especially interested in your response to the last three questions.

@Vult: About Swiss's defensiveness, don't you think he ignored offense against me? Sidenote: I think Riddle is just legitimately an idiot, but I'm unsure about X1 and Guide now. Also, no, people don't necessarily move their votes when more evidence appears, they'll sometimes do it in order to apply pressure and acquire information. At any rate, I trust May and her opinions. About Riddle, look at him. He's voted for me and called me the play for the day in a rather cavalier manner with nothing backing him up. What makes you think he would listen to me? I asked you because you seemed to be the best overall option for the job, in terms of judging you based on you reacted as well as getting it done (May is actually better on this end, I think, due to the person involved, but I already trust her).

@Guide: Do you believe scum joined both "factions", or are both on one? Why did you change your mind on Swiss after you yourself pointed out that his claim that his charade to get information from Isu is bogus, and that his actions are not in town's favor? I acted completely different in Newbie 3 and L4S and was scum in both (L4S being a survivor game didn't really affect people's thoughts and attitudes [even though it should have]). If you don't give a better reason than "he wouldn't be so prominent", then I'll support Mayling against you.

@Swiss: First and foremost, "Waaay too many questions" has never been and never will be a valid reason to ignore an inquiry. Answer them reasonably.

At this time, who would you be willing to lynch?

As it stands, our positions against each other are literally:
1) Cello: Swiss is scum because he has acted in a scummy manner.
2) Swiss: Cello is scum because he thinks I'm scum and wants me to die for acting in a scummy manner.

How is your position reasonable?

Also if I do get lynched today, lynch Cello. I honestly can't see him being town.

This is the one opinion that you've offered toward anyone being scum. You "honestly can't see me as town"? Why then, have you done nothing since in terms of trying to convince people that my actions have actually been scummy? Do you really think that "he tried to get me hammered soon" is a good enough reason to hammer that person on it's own? It looks more like you are relying on the fact that these players are apt to say "Oh, well scum would never talk like that!" and leave it at that. It's apparently worked on Riddle and Guide, I'll grant, but that is a mark against them rather than an accolade for you.

Next, I didn't ask you to try to explain away your idiotic play; we already recognize it as such, and pointing out your flaws doesn't dismiss them. I asked you to answer why we should let you get away with playing in a blatantly hypocritical, ineffective, and dare I say, scummy, manner.

You've tried to associate yourself with a former townie's playstyle for no reason, disassociate yourself from your previous known scum playstyle (God forbid that it's possible you could play in a different manner! That's just not feasible! /sarcasm), stated opposite views about a player (Isuyaru) while maintaining the illusion of a stance (you told Guide that you had "nothing left to pressure Isu about...i.e. [his (re-)actions] weren't scummy. Why was it that you later whined about not having information to form an opinion about him, when you in fact, already had?), acted against the town by refusing to participate as a group (that's precisely why Daedelus/X1-12's and Writer Kupo's interpretations of your actions matter; for the same reason that you tried to reach out to Guide [he's likely to be town], you have to work with other members of the town to gather and correctly interpret information. You literally said "who cares?". Town does; because the alternative is a confused town that scum can manipulate to win.), publicly claimed to have dropped his play style after I pointed out his inconsistent application of scum tells (accused Isu of scumminess for skimming, when I had actually skimmed before Isu "had" [Swiss later admitted he didn't ], yet I received no reprimand), and tried to shift blame for his failure to get anything useful from his shenanigens onto Isuyaru by saying he didn't respond enough.

You claimed to have been unable to form an opinion on Isuyaru, yet you claimed you found him to be "not scummy" (this is all beside the point that Isu has given plenty of information on which to form an opinion). How is this so? Also, how would you have learned anything if Isu actually had responded? Bandwagons are not useful in that regard; they are useful as a gauge for the wagoneers.

So, Cello, tell me why you believe Isu not to be scum. Show me why I'm wrong.

For the last time, I DIDN'T get the expected response from ISU, which is what I needed, I got the expected flak from most players and votes on me which I expected, but I needed ISU TO BE TALKING BACK TO ME.

After I pointed out your inconsistency and lack of case when you were supposedly applying "****** pressure", you then challenged me to point out why Isuyaru wasn't scum, as shown by the first quote. Your focus was on me, and yet you continued to cling to your story of "getting reactions" from Isuyaru. Why, when you clearly wanted me to respond to you? If you didn't want that, why did you challenge me in the first place, when that was to be expected? Why didn't you continue to pressure Isuyaru until you got the information that you wanted, since you supposedly expected to come under fire? Why did you value your own life over information for the town?

I said 'accidentally or deliberately', you just assumed accidentally there.

Actually, I assumed "accidentally or deliberately". But, "accidentally or deliberately" assumes that the possibility of "accidentally" exists. If you thought it could be either, why didn't you try to ascertain which one it was? Why do you want to kill someone when you can't even decide if you think he has misunderstood your positions or has done so deliberately? Why should we believe you are town when you can't keep your own story straight? At any rate, I neither accidentally nor deliberately misconstrued any point that you've made. I've simply showcased what you have done, after trying on multiple occasions to ascertain whether you are a townie that failed to act in town's interest, or scum. I think there is a very high chance you are scum, and you haven't done much to sway my opinion on that matter, though certainly not due to me not giving you that opportunity.

As for your response to my Popcorn comment, you failed to see the point, and strawman-ing the point doesn't help you. I quickly determined that Swords and Tom were scum there. I did not explicitly state this, but from context it is obvious that I was town in that game. While that does not mean I am town because I wanted to kill you quickly, it does show that a townie can quickly reason a person is scum and want someone dead. That game in particular shows that I am personally capable of that. And that is the heart of your "case" against me. What else is there?

The last question doesn't just apply to Swiss, as Riddle and Guide have voted for me for that reason as well. Do you have any other reason for continuing to vote for me? If not, take it off. Now. And to cut off the expected response at the pass, being "mean" or "telling people how to vote" is not a scum tell, at least for me it isn't.

 

[Cello_Marl]

Advice on Night Actions:

I wrote this a while ago, but didn't bother to post it since I was too lazy to hook up my external hard drive. Yes, I'm that lazy. But, anyway, here it is.

Cop: The best investigation target is someone that you have a bad feeling about, but little or no solid information on which to form an opinion. Failing that, I personally prefer to target those that, if I am wrong about my read on their alignment, will most drastically affect my views of the other players.

It's typically useless to investigate a person to "be sure" when the whole of the town believes he is guilty; that scenario is best reserved for your own judgment, as it will be rife with people taking stances taken to get to that point. Think of your cop investigation as a lynch; you just get to see what the results of that lynch will be ahead of time, and alter your play to suit it. If you can't trust your instincts and need the mod to tell you who the bad guys are before you are comfortable pursuing that person, then you will be completely and utterly screwed when you try to play as a normal townie. Also, the longer you survive, the more information you have to make better decisions for your investigations, which means you can use your early investigations on people who you feel will eternally remain borderline figures.

Regardless of whether or not there is a roleblocker on the mafia team, it is unwise to "breadcrumb" the fact you are a cop (leaving hidden clues and hints that you are that role), since they can either 1) prevent your investigations if he exists, or 2) kill you outright if he doesn't, since there would be no doctor to protect you.

Also, make sure of what your investigation results really are. Ask the mod if you are aware of whether or not your action was blocked; do not assume that your Night Action was on a townie.

Finally, under NO circumstances is hidden information more important than the life of an innocent (disclaimer: this is more of a personal opinion as compared to a generally accepted belief). If you can prevent the lynch of a townie by coming forward and claiming cop, do so. Push and urge first if you can, but don't try such tactics when that person is put at L-1 with an itchy trigger finger (such as myself) capable of the hammer. More on that if the situation itself arises.

Doc: The best protection target varies based on your opponents, which ironically means you have to be a better "investigator" than the cop in order to be successful. There are two ways you can go about using your protection; aggressively or defensively. Aggressively protecting means you want to protect the person that you believe is most likely to die, and you are using your ability as a sort of "semi-investigate". "Most likely to die" generally translates to the person that is generally accepted by the town to be town. Another way to approach this angle, if you know the players in the game or are a quick judge of character, is to think about every potential scum team and use what you know of them to determine their most likely targets, then target the player most likely to be killed that way.

The other choice is to protect someone that thinks the way that you do. You would do this in order to preserve a person that you personally believe is town, without regard to what may happen to other players. For this reason, you should not adopt this approach for someone that simply agrees with you, or that comes to the conclusions that you do for preposterous reasons. If, on the other hand, you read a person's posts and think "Wow, I was about to post that" or something similar, you may want to preserve that person's life. This is especially useful since that person will likely recognize you as a fellow townie for the same reasons.

A common mistake for new players (perhaps, not just new ones) is to second-guess yourself when it comes to interpreting the results of your action. If you successfully protect someone, especially early on, you can generally accept that that person is town. Mafia is loathe to give up their Night Kill when it lends them no numerical advantage, and it is almost never done with, say, 7+ people left, except when there is an obvious strategic value to that action.

Let's say the mafia tries to forgo their kill in an attempt to fool the doctor into believing he has successfully protected someone. In addition to the fact that the doctor has, in effect, successfully protected by virtue of existing in this case, there is only a 1/3 chance that the person the doctor selected is a mafia member. While potentially disastrous, scum must give up their most powerful weapon in exchange for a chance at a good deal, and which normally results in clearing a townie for the doctor instead. Further, a single cop investigation can undo even that advantage, making the risk/reward ratio unappealing to most scum players. That bit of advice actually applies to any mafia-related decision. Two different sides being presented or suggested does not make them equally likely to happen.

You don't have to worry about the existence of a roleblocker as much as a cop does. If the mafia knows or suspects you are a doc, you're dead. If, however, you are roleblocked, then you know a cop must exist.

 

[X1-12]

@X1-12: Welcome to the game. Why did you ask if the set-up could be one other than one listed in the beginning post? How is an aggressive style indicative of a player being mafia? Also, you're bouncing back and forth on your opinions on me and Swiss. Who exactly were you calling wishy-washy and who's arguments were legit? In a lot of ways, it looks like you are trying to act in the same manner that Swiss was. Why, when you had a problem with it?.

I asked about the setup because if it is one of the 4 (which it is), then it means that mafia can be able to figure out certain things. for example if the mafia know there is a roleblocker, and a doctor reveals themselves. then the mafia know there is also definitely a cop. It also means we know there is 2 mafia and 7 town

I thought an agressive style is indicative of a player being mafia as there is less mafia and they are more panicked and want to remove the town and cause confusion fast

I don't think i was ever bouncing back and forth on opinions between you and swiss, I said you were being wishy washy because of what swiss said in post 121 some of the questions did seem to be just all over the place and unnecessary
I Don't think I ever attacked you but i voted swiss? how do you think i'm moving back and forth?


@Mod: My vote for swiss on this post was not counted

 

[Purple]

Who will survive...​

Votes​

Cello_Marl ($$)*The_Guide, Riddle
Vult Redux ()*
Mayling ()*
The_Guide ($$$) *Mayling, Isuyaru, Swiss
X1-12 ()*
Isuyaru()*
Swiss ($$)* Cello_Marl, X1-12
Riddle () *
Writer Kupo () *​

Not Voting:Writer Kupo, Vult_Redux ($$)​

It takes 5/9 to eliminate a player.
Deadline: 06/18/10 8:00pm EST​

...the liar game.​

 

[Isuyaru]

@Mod: I believe you missed Vult's latest vote, in post 154

Unvote for now, willing to put my vote back on The_Guide depending on what I think of his responses

I see I COULD be scum saying this, but it really is a pretty bad strategy to draw attention to yourself in a game this inactive.

At the time you said this, you were voting Cello. I believe at this time, Cello had drawn a considerable amount of attention to himself, but in a different way. Should the logic of "scum would avoid drawing attention to themselves in this case" apply to Cello's actions? Why or why not?

if you are interested that post i quoted is number 121 and

Was there supposed to be more to this post? If so, then what?

when I said that I was just trying to get a reaction, shameless and cheeky I know

How were you expecting him to react? What do you think about the way he did react?

Isu
This gives Anti-Town vibes.

Mind elaborating on this?