New Toon Link Matchup Thread

[Gnes]

Thats not fair pj. Gnes matchup vs tink is tink's only -3 matchup
But really, most of the falco's i see play against toon link's are **** at the matchup. I 2stocked mr. hyro twice with falco in tourney, and he's suppose to be **** against the bird.

 

[Beat11]

from what i've seen, Tink should focus on airbourne attacks and projectiles with full hops. otherwise, the MU is ****.

 

[G-Dub]

The MU is just dumb. Tink has to work to get at mid range, then dodge lasers while hes there, and not let falco get in. All falco does is SHDL, and reflect Tink's projectiles... We have a few tricks in this MU, but its just difficult and dumb...

 

[southpaw]

IMO, and order does matter

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

I'm going by 1=55/45 2=60/40 and etc. I'm willing to argue about most of these mu's.

 

[N3xU5]

southpaw... why is snake 60-40 snakes favor. I dont see that match up being difficult at all

 

[southpaw]

lmao n3xu5 with the callout? The mu is obviously hard just go watch jash vs fatal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PIW-_lzhGQ#t=1m29s Dire sums it pretty well.

I'd say the main reason the mu is that hard is cuz snakes nades kill TL and at the same time keep snake alive. I've fresh upsmashed snake with the strong hitbox at over 200% and his stale nade kept him alive. That same stale nade can kill me at like 150. and this is just his nades only. snake's ground game outclasses TL by far. He sucks in the air, but most of the time snake is hit into the air by a projectile when I am in not in range to take advantage because I'm far away being safe. And trying to kill snake is a nightmare in general. Snake is just a better char, and I'm forced to basically stay out of the way of all of his moves and just run away until he messes up badly and then I might kill him. I dunno I consider mu's to be how hard I have to work vs the other person to win, and I know I have to try much harder than the snake main.

oh and if snake is free go beat zork for me.

 

[QUIVO]

Snake is 6/4 his favor. Live a little, and get close. Snake's are generally easy to read once you get them in the air.

 

[N3xU5]

Well, the nade thing goes for any character..... and toon link almost outcamps snake and can beat him up pretty good up close. Maybe your not playing the MU right id says its snakes favor but more like 55-45 but meh i could be wrong. Obviously snakes ground game is superior but that doesnt mean toon link cant do anything to him up close. Also zork decided to main mk now lol.

Oyeah and how is marth toon link marhts favor? Id say its even.

 

[southpaw]

other chars when they see snake hiding in shield with a nade can grab him. TL however can lose a stock for missing a grab he will get 7% out of.

Marth can get inside on TL really fast and his edgeguarding is also really good as you can see here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNF5ReM0WG8&playnext=1&list=PL4140B363A27EB981#t5m26s

Marth's ariels out speed and out range TL's hes got an amazing pivot grab with dancing blade punishing anything. I feel like I don't know this mu that well but it just doesn't feel even to me. ask mikehaze if u want

 

[MaskedAvnger]

Marth is his advantage mainly because of the edgeguard, imo. If he gets you on the ledge, getting back onto the stage can be a big problem for TL, and you can take 30-40% before you can even get back into a position where you can fight back onto the stage. If you shield dancing blade i believe you can grab him out of it? I think I saw shadow do that in a match recently.

 

[southpaw]

the end of dancing blade is unsafe even on TL's shield, but watch out when they just do db1 on block and wait. but ya marths godlike at edgeguarding

 

[N3xU5]

yeah mike said it was even when i asked him like a month ago so meh

 

[Hyro]

Thats not fair pj. Gnes matchup vs tink is tink's only -3 matchup
But really, most of the falco's i see play against toon link's are **** at the matchup. I 2stocked mr. hyro twice with falco in tourney, and he's suppose to be **** against the bird.

***** you 2 stocked me then i was like **** that and the last match i was winning, you had like 100 last stock i was at 0, you chaingrabbed me then footstooled me you cheap *******

now we gotta mm for my dignity

falco too easy

dehf was too scared to mm me at pound IV

-the callout

 

[Sosuke]

falco isn't even that good imo

 

[QUIVO]

Falco ain't **** when he's a scrub

 

[TheJerm]

Marth vs TL is still even. Just because I barely lost doesnt make it his favor. It was my bad decisions, not TLs fault.

 

[southpaw]

right so what will beat marth's spaced back air then? he will eat ur boomerang, and out space any arieals. I think marth's sword can blow up a bomb to without him getting hit. I'm not basing it off of ur one match, just using it as an example where marth can severly limit ur options very well.

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong its just that I don't see what Toon link can do to keep it even. At first I thought it wasn't that bad until i realized that marth's dj u-air can reach TL's dj. I dunno I hate marth's ledge pressure game and his frame traps.

 

[G-Dub]

right so what will beat marth's spaced back air then? he will eat ur boomerang, and out space any arieals. I think marth's sword can blow up a bomb to without him getting hit. I'm not basing it off of ur one match, just using it as an example where marth can severly limit ur options very well.

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong its just that I don't see what Toon link can do to keep it even. At first I thought it wasn't that bad until i realized that marth's dj u-air can reach TL's dj. I dunno I hate marth's ledge pressure game and his frame traps.

Marth does not limit our camping game too much, although camping marth requires a lot of thought and good reads. Tink has to keep out of marth's range, or he'll get ****ed. The projectile spam must continue throughout the match to force the approach, and punish. The MU gets more difficult when marth gets the lead, but with a cool head, and good play, this match is even.

 

[Thebest1pj]

right so what will beat marth's spaced back air then? he will eat ur boomerang, and out space any arieals. I think marth's sword can blow up a bomb to without him getting hit. I'm not basing it off of ur one match, just using it as an example where marth can severly limit ur options very well.

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong its just that I don't see what Toon link can do to keep it even. At first I thought it wasn't that bad until i realized that marth's dj u-air can reach TL's dj. I dunno I hate marth's ledge pressure game and his frame traps.

why you dj in the first place? is bad bro.

all jerm had to do was nair mike and he woulda won

/end

 

[southpaw]

I dunno why I dj, I never tried it until pierce told me to and it worked against him. and nair usually wasn't an option cuz mike wuz mainly spacing aerials outside of nair range, and its not like the nair would kill at 130.

 

[TheJerm]

Not to kill, just to get him off of me. I got edge gaurded so well because I was mainly worried about getting back on stage rather than just getting him off me. If marth is going to use an aerial to block one of our projectiles, just use that as a opportunity to get it. We beat when we are extremely close, or far away out side of his tipper range.

 

[G-Dub]

I dunno why I dj, I never tried it until pierce told me to and it worked against him. and nair usually wasn't an option cuz mike wuz mainly spacing aerials outside of nair range, and its not like the nair would kill at 130.

When marth is spacing his airials well, and you're having difficulty, remember to retreat Zair with a bomb in hand. Zair will poke him away, and give you some oppenings to either get in, or throw the bomb and give you some good damage.

 

[southpaw]

Not to kill, just to get him off of me. I got edge guarded so well because I was mainly worried about getting back on stage rather than just getting him off me. If marth is going to use an aerial to block one of our projectiles, just use that as a opportunity to get it. We beat when we are extremely close, or far away out side of his tipper range.

I don't really think marth's fair lags that hard after hitting a boomerang, but w/e theorycrafting is annoying to argue. I still don't think marth is even nor do I see how we win up close when his moves are faster than us.
but wut do I do against lucario? I don't know wut to do when lucario never aproaches, I have much more trouble against a patient lucario vs an aggro one. Or what to do against lucario's fsmash edgaurding. fsmash>roll+getup+getup-attack+ledgehop+bomb

oh a good example of wut I'm talking about is this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8Uv2zparmo&feature=related#t=0m40s
I don't care if this is an old video, how do you beat this strat? I get timed out by lucarios all the time.

 

[Thebest1pj]

if you're not playing against trela you should always win.

 

[TheJerm]

^true

And its actually not that bad. There's no sure way to get on stage. Its more of paper rock scissors. Get creative about it and you should be fine.

To actually beat lucario.. simply take the first stock and run. Or force him off stage for the free damage. Aerials work well too. The match is pretty even.. just have to abuse his weakness's

 

[WindMajor]

Veeeeery very true. You cannot afford to lose that first stock unless you can bring it back quickly.

Question: Does TL's C4 block auras?

 

[TheJerm]

I think so. But I know TLs shield idle shield blocks them.

 

[*Tyson*]

So i assume the whole way to approach playing TL is to go in to every match with the intent of going to time, and spam your projectiles the correct way ( cause yes i know it is an art )

 

[WindMajor]

Not into every match.

Just some matchups in which the camping is just too hardcore, or when the stage makes it too easy to time out in (PS1 comes to mind).

You still want to camp your way to victory, but once you get to about 140%, you're gonna want to start figuring out ways to go for the kill without getting eager.

 

[*Tyson*]

Right of course. I guess i meant go into every match with that mentality and will do it if the situation calls for it.

 

[Sosuke]

whoopsie, ignore this

 

[Supreme Dirt]

For Olimar, should my goal be to time him out? I really don't see a way to get inside to land a kill move, from what I can tell the only time I should ever get a kill is if a bomb knocks him offstage.

And that involves having a bomb out, which is pretty risky.

 

[G-Dub]

Veeeeery very true. You cannot afford to lose that first stock unless you can bring it back quickly.

Question: Does TL's C4 block auras?

TL's C4 blocks low-level auras (when lucario is weak)

 

[MJG]

Bombs in general should ALWAYS stop Aura...so I don't think it matters if Lucario is weak or if Lucario is at Dark Phoenix, Level 3 X Factor status.

@Supreme Dirt: Limit your bomb usage vs olimar and just pressure him. Olimar will almost ALWAYS out camp Toon Link. If you are looking to get the kill against olimar, the safest way to do this is to get olimar in the air and to go from there.

 

[Thebest1pj]

For Olimar, should my goal be to time him out? I really don't see a way to get inside to land a kill move, from what I can tell the only time I should ever get a kill is if a bomb knocks him offstage.

And that involves having a bomb out, which is pretty risky.

I had a response but i accidentally erased it but here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jFQNZ4TX4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ej4qN5zKSw

 

[*Tyson*]

so I don't think it matters if Lucario is weak or if Lucario is at Dark Phoenix, Level 3 X Factor status

I lol'd

Why would bomb usage be bad against any character though? The Pikmin i am guessing?

 

[MJG]

Yea. The pikmin latch onto TL and most of the time, the bomb will just blow up in TLs face because of the pikmin

 

[Thebest1pj]

hi tyson best ness in texas

 

[G-Dub]

Bombs in general should ALWAYS stop Aura...so I don't think it matters if Lucario is weak or if Lucario is at Dark Phoenix, Level 3 X Factor status.

Bombs only beat Aura at the beginning of the stock, once lucario is around 100% same stock, bombs get eaten. Charging Aura sphere affects what will win as well, but when Lucario is at "Dark Phoenix, Level 3 X Factor status" aura>bomb erry time.

 

[WindMajor]

Are you sure?

When I ran the tests back in like '09, I was able to get TL's bomb to stop auras at 999% in practice mode and at ~220% in Vs. Mode. Perhaps I messed up with ports, but I've almost never encountered a case in which my bomb hasn't stopped an aura.