New things from Melee

[Chesstiger2612]

This thread is thought to collect helpful stuff for Marth and the possible applications in PM which are new to help players coming from Melee and picking up PM.
Please correct me if I'm wrong and add things I left out
To start off:

B-reversal and wavebounce in general:
You do a b-reversal by hitting the opposite direction after a b-move within 3 frames. This changes your direction and momentum, while normal reversals just change direction.
Using the bair to turnaround is known in the melee community and you might also use side-b (reversed) or neutral-b (reversed) for that (side-b is a bit faster so you might think about that one).
Wavebouncing is the combination of a reversing and a b-reversal, so keeping the direction while hitting, but reversing the momentum.
This is useful when you are at the edge and an opponent is above it but not over the stage (weird description, but I hope you understand what I mean). You can jump to him and side-b or neutral-b and get on the stage again after it because your momentum was reversed and continue edgeguarding.

Less landing lag on dair:
This isnt a new technique but... an important note. You can use dair (also OoS) a bit more freely than in Melee because the landing lag isnt that big. A l-cancelled dair is hard to punish if hitting a shield now.

Footstool:
Marths footstool isnt the greatest but has also small applications. Landing it will make the opponent unable to throw out moves for 17 frames (i think, might be +- 2 or so) and the footstool itself is frame 1 and won't use your jump. You just input a taunt when in the air. An onstage footstool -> immediate dair works on bigger characters and using Jump -> footstool -> waveland on a platform out of shield can get you out of bad situations (works best with the Smashville platform because of the low height). There are probably far more applications. Be creative with it.

DACUS:
Marth has a Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash, for the specific thread, see here:
While Marth has probably the worst DACUS in the game, I just wanted to mention it because maybe someone can use it successfully.

Reverse aerial rush:
By slamming the control stick in the opposite direction just before jumping, you keep your momentum while changing the direction, the socalled RAR. For Marth, you can use RAR bairs for spacing and a RAR dair offstage to use a reverse dair (this is very helpful because, as most of you might know, the reverse dair has hitboxes where the normal one hasn't and vicey-versa).
RAR -> Wavedash into ledge is also an underused edgeguarding tool when facing the ledge.

New sh double aerials:
The one frame momentum delay allows more sh double aerials than in Melee

Do you have any other ideas/applications?

 

[CyberZixx]

It is highly questionable how useful any of those techs are for Marth.

 

[DJ _ICE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you do a reverse side b out of shield in melee? It doesn't seem like that great of an OoS option anyway. Also some other new things are a delayed fall on the Dolphin Slash and Up smash covering the tip more properly.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Not 100% sure but have never seen it in Melee, but I might confuse reversed side-B and the B-reverse...
Yeah Marths changes are definitely details but nevertheless worth noting.

 

[Ahenobarbus]

It is highly questionable how useful any of those techs are for Marth.

The RAR is incredibly useful though, for every character. You can dash across the stage and do a RAR wavedash to edgehog, which is something I don't see enough people doing. Not to mention that for a lot of edgeguards offstage bair is preferable to fair.

Also, thanks to Brawl there are more/ easier executed options to combo immediately out of OOS SH DB, my favorite being up air to set up a juggle, or dair to set up a tech chase.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Added the RAR -> Wavedash thx

 

[tauKhan]

Dash canceling initial crouch is pretty big for marth. Being able to dash back fast from run makes running in neutral better, and marth has super good option out of run in dtilt.

Also c-stick works differently, you can now do pivot fsmashes by holding a, then dashing, pressing c-stick and releasing a. This way the c-stick doesn't have to be timed, as it includes the dash command. This makes doing throw -> advancing pivot fsmash easier to do, you can now just hold a when throwing, dash forward, then dash back and immediately press c-stick and release a.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Nice, thank you for the feedback. I also wondered if all the new "hold attack" tricks making things easier can also be used for pivot tilts because that would help Marth much.

 

[tauKhan]

Hey you actually don't need hold attack pivotting anymore , check up http://smashboards.com/threads/dash-pivot-tilts-are-easy-in-pm.354189/

Pivoting is basically super super easy in this game, since you can do regular turnaround during dash. Pivot tilts are dirty with marth

Edit: you can actually empty pivot by having c-stick set to attack, holding attack, dashing and then pressing c-stick at the same time as dashing in the other direction. But I prefer just doing turnarounds by controlstick only.

 

[tauKhan]

There is also brawl sdi in this game: At least when c-stick is set to smash, it is read as smash input to AFAIK cardinal direction with control stick + a. I'm not sure if the c-stick can do other directions than up/down/left/right though. This means that if you press c-stick while in hitlag to different quarter than your control stick is in, the game will read that your control stick was in different quarter for 1 frame. Thus you'll get sdi to where the c-stick was pushed, then sdi to where you hold your control stick. If you want to escape foxes uair, you can push up with control stick, and next frame press c-stick right while still holding control stick up to get up right up sdi. If you are very quick and hitlag is long enough, you can even press c-stick again to get 5 sdi inputs.

 

[Remzi]

One of my favorite new Marth techs is sh fair > waveland. Feels so good and is pretty useful.

 

[Charby]

One of my favorite new Marth techs is sh fair > waveland. Feels so good and is pretty useful.

hmm it's not new ... you can do that on melee

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I don't know if it was also possible in Melee but you can dash/run-cancel down-tilt and hold the control stick in the opposite direction you are facing during the animation and if you space/time it perfectly you will grab the ledge after that because you still have a little momentum.
It may prove useful in some edgeguarding situations, for example if someone waits out the d-tilt for his recovery and then up-bs (for example Marth mirrors) but you have got the ledge then.

 

[tauKhan]

There's one neat movement technique that could be very useful if one could do it consistently. In pm walk momentum cancels immediately, so if you walk for one frame and then dash after wd back, you'll get full speed dash instead of the momentum of wd reducing the speed. The input is done by making the dash input little slower. These could be combined with cactus dashes because there is no way to tell from the animation whether you're gonna get full speed dash or cactus dash, it could make your movement difficult to predict.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Also Marths jump/sh lasts 1 frame longer because of the 1 frame momentum delay (not 100% sure could also have another reason but result is the same). Some sh aerial combinations get easier because of that, especially those which are only barely possible.

 

[Spralwers]

On a lot of characters, you can do grounded and shielded footstools into dair. On some characters like Falcon, you have to be frame perfect.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

On smaller characters you can also footstool->waveland grab. Doesn't work if their footstool hurtbox is above the air dodge distance.

 

[Spralwers]

oh also:

An onstage footstool -> immediate dair works on bigger characters

It works on some smaller characters too, like Kirby. In fact I seem to have an easier time doing it on Kirby than Ganondorf. It probably has to do with where on the body exactly you footstool and where their hurtboxes are during the footstool stun animation.

It's a nice mix up when you've landed a hit (like a dtilt) in neutral and you're closing in on the space. Marth's mobility plays a huge role here. Something I'll test at our weekly.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The more far the lowest footstool hurtbux is from the highest hitbox the easier it is. Since you can only footstool heads and Ganondorfs head only makes up a little part of his body while almost Kirby's whole body is classified as that category (correct me if I'm wrong) it makes sense perfectly. It is harder on humany-types because they don't have those strange body size dispropirtions characters like Kirby, Jiggs etc. have.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

By the way rar-dair ledgecancel -> ledgegrab is covering options pretty well. Not really good if you fight someone recovering straight up but if you are dealing with stalling, sweetspotting the ledge with multijumpers, slow recoveries or situations where you will either grab the ledge before they sweetspot or get the dair if they don't try to sweetspot.

 

[tauKhan]

I just drop this here, though I'm not sure how useful this is for marth: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-movement-technique-moonturning.355977/#post-16775427

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think its very useful for Marth because his pivot animation is long which makes grabbing the ledge with it easier, the moonturn jump is probably better than marths rar in many situation.
I mean the technique itself is very situational, but for Marth it is useful in relation to other characters.

 

[tauKhan]

Oh yeah this could be used for clutch edge hodging if you are relatively close to the edge. I'm not sure if it's faster than pivot wd though. This could be also used for retreating pivot attacks, like utilt. Moonturn jump isn't really necessary because marths fastest air speed can be achieved with his run anyway ( I believe, not sure), so he won't go any faster when doing RAR.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ T tauKhan Do you know how the side-b stalling mechanic works? I tried ledgedrop side-b multiple times and sometimes I was able to regrab without needing a jump and sometimes I was pushed down a big amount, there was nothing in between. It was as if I had no gravity in the first one and standard gravity in the second one. This also somtimes happens if I use side-b immediately after a jump, it produces unpredictable (?) results.
Also about that side-b, you mentioned b-reversal/wavebounce might prove useful for recovery. I tried to use it as b-reversal when I have still momentum from being hit but it doesn't turn that momentum around. Is that because of Marth's side-b or isn't it possible to reverse momentum that you didn't applied yourself. Is there a way around this issue.

 

[tauKhan]

The first side b gives you significant upwards momentum, but after that side b's give you small downwards speed. The first side b refreshes only on hard land, not when wl or aerial landing or ledge grab.
Regarding the momentum of b reversal, I think you actually lose almost all momentum before you are out of hitstun, so it's not that useful. Though I haven't tested if you can do this after cc landing an attack, in which case it would be very good. I don't think the game cares how you got the momentum, but I'm not sure.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Some of the new stages make Marths up-b pretty safe, one platform on Skyloft, some transformations on Dracula's and one platform on Rumble Falls come to mind. Against almost half the cast you can just throw out up-bs on shield and can't get punished if it hits their shield.
It isn't new about Marth, but the new stage set makes it possible.

 

[Spralwers]

I guess its worth adding that due to the game's physics, Marth gets an extra 1-2 frames of airtime and it allows him to do SH bair into fair/uair/dair. Is anyone able to do SH bair -> fair consistently? I'll either:

Not get the fair out - happens like 20% of the time
Get the very beginning of the fair out - happens like 60% of the time
Actually get the fair out and hit someone in front of me with it - happens like 20% of the time

I'm sure for me it's some combination of either not getting the bair out on the first possible frame, or not timing the fair to be on the first possible frame after bair.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ SpiderMad has made various posts about this, I don't remember the exact results though.

 

[Spralwers]

I know there's a video out there demonstrating it but I can't find it. Would you happen to have a link?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

This channel features multiple videos featuring that topic.

 

[Spralwers]

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

 

[SpiderMad]

There's one neat movement technique that could be very useful if one could do it consistently. In pm walk momentum cancels immediately, so if you walk for one frame and then dash after wd back, you'll get full speed dash instead of the momentum of wd reducing the speed. The input is done by making the dash input little slower. These could be combined with cactus dashes because there is no way to tell from the animation whether you're gonna get full speed dash or cactus dash, it could make your movement difficult to predict.

How do you figure out all this

hmm it's not new ... you can do that on melee

Yes but a few frames later or so because the move has to end before you waveland, in PM (from Brawl) they removed the Melee restriction of not being able to use WL during the IASA so that now you can WL before it ends during its IASA like you can/could with Fair. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtOSf5iZhnY#t=477

The first side b gives you significant upwards momentum, but after that side b's give you small downwards speed. The first side b refreshes only on hard land, not when wl or aerial landing or ledge grab.
Regarding the momentum of b reversal, I think you actually lose almost all momentum before you are out of hitstun, so it's not that useful. Though I haven't tested if you can do this after cc landing an attack, in which case it would be very good. I don't think the game cares how you got the momentum, but I'm not sure.

Concerning his ledge stall thing though I think it might be different, it felt like the timing itself would give you that downward boost

Also I'm still proud of this wavebounce shieldbreaker in the 2nd clip of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW3TluyP6MQ&list=UUYf-qQybWKZ36R3E07KuQFg

and RAR is just the ability to jump out of the turning animation and immediately be turned around

and I'm not sure how Reverse Side-b OOS is new to PM

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Oh I forgot to remove that with the side-b reverse, fault on my part

 

[tauKhan]

I figured out a consistent way to do momentum cancel dashes out of wd if tap jump is off: After the wd move the control stick slightly up, and maybe leave it a little bit back (in the direction you wd'd in). Then dash aiming slightly upwards. I think this makes it easier to not make the dash input too fast.

Concerning his ledge stall thing though I think it might be different, it felt like the timing itself would give you that downward boost

I tested this, and marth definitely regrabs the ledge every time if the side b is "fresh". I think the side b works like in melee, where it always fixes your vertical velocity. If it's "fresh" the velocity is upwards, if not then downwards.

How do you figure out all this

Simply by observation and logic and testing . Unfortunately I don't have any other tools than the pm game itself. For example in this case I noticed that wd back into walk looks kind of weird. Then I realized that it's faster than in melee. Also sometimes my dash out of wd back would be very fast. I put those things together and deduced that the walk must momentum cancel.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I don't think the game cares how you got the momentum, but I'm not sure.

@8adge confirmed the game cares about how you got the momentum so b-reversing side-b will only make you hit the blast zones faster because it just turns your "hold towards stage" momentum

 

[SpiderMad]

@8adge confirmed the game cares about how you got the momentum so b-reversing side-b will only make you hit the blast zones faster because it just turns your "hold towards stage" momentum

Could that be useful for escaping follow-ups though if you want to get farther away, or would just holding away overall give you more distance anyways

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Holding away would give you more distance but you can use it as fakeout/bait, especially against mid-slow moves without lasting hitboxes vulnerable to those kinds of baiting strategies, so I still consider it as useful.

 

[Spralwers]

So if you wanna do reverse up B, but you can't because you'd fall off the edge, B reversing the reverse up B will keep you on the stage. Pretty sick option out of ledge hop if you know the attack is gonna hit them based on their position. Timing is tricky though, since it looks like you have to reverse the control stick within a few frames after the first hitbox comes out, as opposed to the start up of the move. A cool hard read option.

Edit: It's worth noting that because B reversing the reverse up B requires you to turn the control stick after the hitbox comes out, the timing will be different whether you hit or not due to the induced pause of hit lag. If you execute the timing to do a whiffed B reversed reverse up B, but you hit someone, you will actually just do a reverse up B. And if you execute the timing to B reverse the reverse up B as if you hit someone, but you miss, you just end up doing the regular reverse up B. And if you are near the ledge in both those scenarios, you dead. That's why if you opt to use B reversed reverse up B near the ledge, you have to be sure it hits/whiffs.

While Marth has probably the worst DACUS in the game, I just wanted to mention it because maybe someone can use it successfully.

So soft upsmash has actually fairly large hitboxes on the side, and Marth gets crazy momentum off of DACUS, plus the hitbox lingers. This is pretty awesome because the knockback from soft usmash is fixed and: puts floaties in the air around tipper range at frame disadvantage (you can even get tipper fsmashes depending on DI), and sets up tech chases on fast fallers. Soft usmash is a way to circumvent Marth's weakness of not being able to combo into kill moves at higher percents. It's main issue is the low horizontal range, but that can be worked around via dacus, dashing, and running (since jump cancels are not required to do usmash out of dash, and you don't need to crouch before usmashing out of run, unlike melee).

At the moment I'm grinding out a PM optimized Marth. Have gotten cool results at tournaments and even against good players. I'll use this thread as a knowledge dump on my journey.

 

[Spralwers]

Marth has a terrific glide toss. But, getting the optimal glide distance has different timing for forward roll and back roll. The forward roll has a tighter window. The item throw is a bit slow compared to Diddy's item throw, so you'll definitely want to be a little more calculating on when you use your glide toss. Marth has a great WD, and since WDs auto pick up items, you can definitely take advantage of item play.

I've found his AGT to be a little meh tho in terms of additional distance he gets.

PM allows all characters to recover with up B even if they're facing opposite of the ledge. Marth can actually get pretty good horizontal distance away from the ledge and still grab it even if his up B leaves him facing the other way. A pretty nice recovery mix up if you're directly below the ledge.

 

[SpiderMad]

I think marth could grab the ledge facing the other way in Melee, not sure how much it differs in PM