New stage discussion

[Alex Strife]

Hey guys.

I was talking to Pierce tonight and I thought it would be a good idea to really test out some stages. I will am thinking after VC7 we can try to add one new stage a tournament to really test it out to help the metagame improve.

If people could try I wanna try this format

Stage :
Pros :
Cons :

I will fill that in from all your info so we can have a proper discussion. Here are the stages I was thinking about

Shadow Moses
Green Greens
Pokemon Stadium 2

Remember I want an intelligent discussion with the format I stated above. Any stage can be discussed but those three are the ones on my mind.

So please lets give this a try and see what happens.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Ok, shadow moses island can not be a legit stage ever because it gives D3 100-0 matchups on that stage vs anyone he can cg because of the wall or walkoff cg.

Green greens is a weird stage that Mk can kill with shuttle loop at 0% off the sides and the bombs dropping from the sky can be a hindrance. Also the apples healing/being weapons all the time.

Ps2 is a fine stage and I don't know why it is gone to begin with. My only guess is the one part with the wind that send you straight up making easy kills with certain characters.

Port Town Aero Dive is the stage I think should be legal if you're adding new stages because it isn't that bad at all.

Spear Pillar also is a good stage I like, but it may be too stupid because everyone would rush to underneath and it'd be a tech fest.

Onett is the last stage I think could be legal just because that stage is fun. Even if D3 does his Cg thing the car will hit him stopping it.

Give me your thoughts on these stages I listed to as options.

 

[Alex Strife]

Well reason I say shadow moses is good is because

- mk kill ability is limited cause he cannot kill vertically
- most characters with a vertical kill can use the stage to their advantage
- camping would be limited and though people would survive longer people with great upsmashes can benefit.

I like green greens cause of the small roof and also it can be an interesting stage. I have not seen enough matches ( if any at all ) on the stage so I can only guess what it is like.

PS2...I agree the wind part is not that bad imo. I wonder how long each part stays on for.

In my opinion if I added any of these stages I would implement a 2 stage ban ruleset.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Well reason I say shadow moses is good is because

- mk kill ability is limited cause he cannot kill vertically
- most characters with a vertical kill can use the stage to their advantage
- camping would be limited and though people would survive longer people with great upsmashes can benefit.

I like green greens cause of the small roof and also it can be an interesting stage. I have not seen enough matches ( if any at all ) on the stage so I can only guess what it is like.

PS2...I agree the wind part is not that bad imo. I wonder how long each part stays on for.

In my opinion if I added any of these stages I would implement a 2 stage ban ruleset.

Check past matches from Washington cause they used to have Green greens legal. Shadow moses island would then be a instant stage that Snake could abuse to no end since he always kills vertically. Fox I guess would also always be cp'd against D3 on this stage since D3 can't Cg him and Fox Usmash is great. I still think Shadow moses island is just bad because it gives D3 an enormous advantage over every character he can cg.

 

[Inui]

PS2 is the only one that's tolerable.

 

[Alex Strife]

I think Shadow moses would be good and again if you know a person uses D3 you can always ban it. It is not just that character that I am thinking about but other characters viability.

For example a Snake player plays a D3 player. They would ban that stage using a 2 ban system. Remember if we put one of these stages on it would be fair to add an additional ban to offset the people complaining.

Think about if a fox and Mk play. Obviously SM would not be a stage that would be considered to ban. just food for thought.

 

[Inui]

LOL

Shadow Moses makes winning with a character that gets CGed by Dedede impossible, even if that person doesn't even use Dedede, and it forces mains of those characters to automatically ban that stage and waste their ban and have to fight Dedede on FD and Delfino instead, possibly twice in the same set.

No way is this stage anything but ban-worthy.

PS2 is the only one you listed that isn't broken.

 

[Alex Strife]

I stated that if any of these were added a 2nd ban would be added as well to offset the issues.

 

[Inui]

I stated that if any of these were added a 2nd ban would be added as well to offset the issues.

That would need to be limited to only one neutral, however. I hope you get why.

 

[Alex Strife]

It does not have to be.

 

[Inui]

It does not have to be.

Aight, cool.

ICs/Falco/Diddy for mid tier.

 

[ELI-mination]

Its not like you would ban Shadow Moses against DDD mains only.
You'd ban it against everyone, lol.

You don't have to "main" DDD in order to know how to pick DDD and Shadow Moses and grab someone, press down, and press grab again. Its not complicated.

 

[AllyKnight]

Shadow moses is terrible. Banned for every reason possible.

 

[Omni]

Its not like you would ban Shadow Moses against DDD mains only.
You'd ban it against everyone, lol.

You don't have to "main" DDD in order to know how to pick DDD and Shadow Moses and grab someone, press down, and press grab again. Its not complicated.

This. Shadow Moses would be instantly banned in every tournament set if the player mains anyone who can be chaingrabbed.

No comment on Green Greens. PS2 has potential. I could see that being a stage where players get timed out due to the transforming. No one wants to fight when there is no gravity, when the ground is moving, and when there is massive ice on the floor.

 

[_Yes!_]

Shadow Moses is a no-no for me for reasons previously stated.

Green Greens would be interesting. It's not hard to avoid the walls/DDD.

PS2 is okay with me as well.

 

[BIGM1994]

the 2 ban stage rule sounds like a good idea if your gonna add one of these new stages

 

[Dabuz]

green greens is something that could be legal but i have a feeling some glitches with blocks would be found making it banned again, worth trying

shadow moses, LOL

PS2...i think each stage change is too drastic in how much they affect some characters to be used even though i can definitely see it as a viable CP stage

 

[Alex Strife]

Ok so I am seeing an interest in PS2. I will put it on after VC7 just as a test.

Would people be ok with testing that stage for one tournament?

 

[Inui]

Yes, with two bans.

 

[Alex Strife]

I stated in a few times I would do that thanks for repeating something I was already doing lol

 

[vanek_pi]

Shadow Moses: just like everyone said, you could pick dedede and just grab the crap out of someone, or if you get counterpicked to this stage, just change characters to fox, pikachu, falco, metaknight, olimar and not get chaing grabed.

Green Greens: this stage is acutally considered metaknights worst stage. but dedede does good on this stage from what i and everyone else said.

Pokemon Stadium 2: the only counterpick mentioned that doesn't have a huge catering towards dedede.

 

[Kaiber Kop]

Shadow Moses is terrible as everyone has already said. Not only does DDD win but it gives characters like Sonic even MORE issues with killing while characters with little kill options are already in a bad spot. Definite no.

Green Greens I don't care much for it but trying to take my bias out of the discussion, can't D3 CG characters against the blocks there too? Definite no as well.

PS2 seems fine to me and I've stated in the past that I don't see why it isn't legal. Stages like Brinstar and DP affect gameplay much more with walk offs and narrow blast zones/lava/or limited walk space. The inconvience of conveyer belts or an icy floor seem much better than those imo.

Cool idea but the game doesn't give much to work with. A really good idea is to allow the hacked versions of LM and Port town. Port town lets you grab the ledges and eliminate the cars in the stage. LM lets you go through all of the floors of the mansion. Unfortunately all wii's will more than likely not have these hacks on.....

 

[Fyist]

The only input I can give is.... Hellllll no.

 

[TheTantalus]

Norfair/Japes are more viable than Shadow Moses

PS2 would be semi viable, i'd be down

 

[Crizthakidd]

ps2 seems most viable.

i think we need to discuss brinign japes and pictochat tho, some other regeions have them.
ps1 as a neutural instead of lylat seems to work as well

 

[BetaZealot]

Jungle Japes.

Pros: high ceiling, a lot of edges, the water is cool.

Cons: the klap trap can get you gimped, campy stage.

Another reason, well not really a reason, but it's another good cp for a lot of characters.

Falco really only has FD on our current list, so what do you do? Ban FD.

 

[Megavitamins]

*goes into training mode to find gay ways to abuse PS2*

This seems like a good idea though, look forward to trying it. I played on that stage like once haha.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Where is Green Hill Zone?

 

[_Yes!_]

Where is Green Hill Zone?

Agree to it at KTAR2 if we play each other?

 

[Delta-cod]

Shadow Moses: Well, everyone's already gotten to that. XD

Green Greens: I used to read everything in the stage discussion forum. Basically, DDD/dtilt locks are not a huge problem here. DDD can't infinite you if you break the bottom blocks and leave the top ones solid so there's a hole you can get through. You just need to manage the blocks more. Same with dtilt locks. You just need to be aware of the blocks and manage them.

One thing I've heard about Green Greens is that it reaaaaaaally helps certain characters camp, like Olimar, who can be an unapproachable fortress, or GnW. But that's what you have 2 bans for.

PS2: This stage, like the first PS, has a problem of usually causing the time to run out. The transformations generally halt all fighting, since nobody wants to fight under awkward terrain changes or bad conditions. That's just my opinion, and I don't really have much to back it up.

Personally, I'd like to see Green Greens out of these 3.

Also, Picto for CP!

 

[Alex Strife]

ps2 seems most viable.

i think we need to discuss brinign japes and pictochat tho, some other regeions have them.
ps1 as a neutural instead of lylat seems to work as well

pictochat is too random but lets talk about japes.


Thoughts?

 

[EmuKiller]

I like pictochat! I don't like japes though. Although Jigglymaster made it legal for his tourney so maybe you could talk to him about it?

I also like Green Greens!

And Pokemon Stadium 2!

Not Port Town Aero Drive. I haven't played on it that much, but every time I have it's like "WOW, that wall that kills me at 60% just got super close to the platform I am on."

*waits for people who actually know the specifics of Port Town Aero Drive to flame him super hard*

PS: Counterpicks are basically designed that "oh. I counterpick I win the round". It's how it pretty much works in melee with stages like Mute City and Jungle Japes still legal. Stages like Rainbow Cruise are already in Brawl and give metaknight an almost instant win. Let's play with more wacky time stages that are super gay and make every match go to round 3.

(That last sentence actually sounds kind of satirical but trust me it's not!)

 

[_Yes!_]

Emu, Mute City was banned at pound (not sure about japes)

Pictochat isn't that bad at all. The most damaging hazard is the missle that does like 25% and is sooooooo slooooooow. The spikes do 10% and only hurt at the top. Walls? We allow walkoffs/walls on other stages. The face blowing? Nowhere near as bad as halberd's laser/cannonball. The ladders are kinda distracting because I always get hit for trying to climb them but that's a personal issue. Pictochat is fine imo.

Green Greens isn't that bad. It rewards camping but so does the game. The bombs fall from top to bottom in definite areas. IIRC they don't do knockback in this game? I can't remember I haven't played on in since my first set with trevor lmfao. The camera gets whacky and wispy shakes around before the apples drop so that's plenty of warning. The dtilt locks don't work because most dtilts that lock move the character forward so eventually they'll break the blocks. Just avoid the wall and DDD can't infinite you. If you know they're going ddd either ban that stage or use a character that doesn't get cg'd (80% of us use metaknight anyway )

My only problem with PS2 is the electric and wind stages, other than that it's fine.

 

[Inui]

NO @ Pictochat

too much luck

 

[_Yes!_]

lol not really, but I know arguing with you is pointless. It's not up to you anyway since you're not a TO at the moment.

 

[Fyist]

I feel like Japes and Distant planet can be really great counterpicks.

Distant planet actually isnt as bad as you would think, the spawning items are kinda annoying but can be used against campers and the hazards on the map are really nothing to complain about.

 

[Jigglymaster]

We need Jungle Japes back. IMO I don't see whats so wrong about it. Falling in the water is like falling off the stage, theres a chance you'll die if you stay in the water too long and theres a chance you'll live if you recover. The clap trap comes on TIMER meaning its NOT random. If I can play the stage as Jigglypuff fighting under the stage and not get claptrapped because I know when it doesn't come, then the clap trap should not be the reason its banned.

And if you think I'm biased because Jigglypuff does good on this stage then look at all the other characters that have an advantage on this stage. Falco, Dk, Kirby, G&W, Diddy, DDD, Wario, ect. Mk will have a stage that he isn't "perfect" on and thus will be better for the other characters to actually have a stage to pick against MK. The only reason I see this stage is banned is because that the EC is full of MK mains.

 

[Alex Strife]

hm so far we got the following possibilities.


PS2
JJ





so pros and cons of distant planet I am curious about this.

 

[_Yes!_]

Distant planet has a walkoff :-/

 

[Fyist]

Distant planet pros would be....

Large stage size, hard to get gimped, platforms, main part of the stage can be jumped through from underneath, spawning items max 2 at a time they do 18% fully grown which takes a while about 6-9% if they just come off.

Cons: Random water transformation which only effects one side of the stage. Random creature spawn that can save you like the ghost on YI or kill you kinda like the ship beam on Corneria