New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Johnknight1]

@ Metal
Okay, well I agree with that!

My God, I am tired of people calling G&W a Retro just because he debuted before Mario.
G&W was completely relevant by Melee's time with the Game & Watch Gallery series, which featured him with the Mario characters. Calling him a Retro character would be the same thing as calling Mario or Donkey Kong a Retro character.

Mr. Game and Watch, Mario, and Donkey Kong are all "retro characters." Yet, Mario and Donkey Kong (and maybe G&W) are also "modern characters." Look up the definition of "retro" and "modern," and this is supported. However, you are right that Mr. Game and Watch isn't a "purely retro character" like... say... the Urban Champion.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

@ Kuma
I prefer the Melee direction of Project M. However, I think the positive aspects of Brawl Zelda should be considered to be kept.

Zelda is actually lower on the tiers in Brawl (38th out of 39) than she was in Melee (18th out of 26). Zelda's Melee strengths are basically all gone in Brawl!

I'm aware of Zelda's placing in both games lol. It only goes to show Zelda has a HORRIBLE design. If she still had the ability to Lcancel her air moves.. it wouldn't change the fact she has little - no combos with her current brawl build.. not to mention other characters + revamped vets became better than her overall. (not to mention the melee characters below her outright SUCK.)

 

[Metal Overlord]

I always considered Mr. Game and Watch more of a historically important WTF character like R.O.B.

Ice Climbers and Pit fit the "retro" category more, IMO

 

[Diddy Kong]

The constant argument with Diddy is it doesn't make sense for Sheik to get a SS look since she didn't have concept art, and her having her OoT model wouldn't "fit". So if SS Zelda NEEDS to be paired with a SS character, Impa could fit the bill. Sheik can get her own slot with her OoT model. (It's better than having a Zelda and a Toon Zelda right?).

I mean I can't predict the future, but it made sense for Impa to be young in SS because it is the first Zelda in the timeline (which is also why there wasn't a need for a Sheik). I'm pretty sure she won't be young again, but again, I can't predict the future.

There are many arguments I bring up about why Sheik shouldn't be there. This is just one of them.

Also about the age:

Spoiler

Impa can live for a few THOUSSAND years, so in a way she's always old lol

It wasn't plot related either because:

Spoiler

Throughout the game before it's revealed Granny = Impa, you only know of Impa as the young, warrior fighter character. Not Granny. Granny even introduces her young self to you as Impa.

Clearly to those who played the game, Impa = young Impa.

Should I still spoiler the Skyward Sword plot though?

lol no. Care to explain why Sheik was one of the best characters in Melee while Zelda is one of the worst? Brawl didn't really improve the situation much either.

There's also this.

Impa 4 Smash baby

 

[yani]

Microsoft doesn't have that great of a 1st/2nd party character selection. Sure. but Microsoft is smart at getting 3rd party characters. They could get a few. I think they would put much more of an effort to get such characters for a fighting game than Sony would.

You're right! Their endless supply of money would get them every CoD protagonist in their game

But in all seriousness they definitely would score good third party characters.

 

[Lukingordex]

There's also this.

Impa 4 Smash baby

 

[Peachy-Desu]

There are many arguments I bring up about why Sheik shouldn't be there. This is just one of them.

Also about the age:

Spoiler

Impa can live for a few THOUSSAND years, so in a way she's always old lol

It wasn't plot related either because:

Spoiler

Throughout the game before it's revealed Granny = Impa, you only know of Impa as the young, warrior fighter character. Not Granny. Granny even introduces her young self to you as Impa.

Clearly to those who played the game, Impa = young Impa.

Should I still spoiler the Skyward Sword plot though?



There's also this.

Impa 4 Smash baby

Impa was more or less blessed by the Goddess Hylia. Not the fact she can literally live for thousands of years. She was sent into the future by Hylia, then when Zelda is Sealed she is made a Guardian.. more or less she was more than likely blessed by Zelda/Hylia. Since Zelda even admits to speaking to Hylia to learn who she is. I doubt the Goddess would leave Zelda unprotected.

Even when she dies, she dissapears into a magic like dust.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yes!

 

[Deleted member]

You're not understanding me, John.
People are classifying G&W in the same vein as the Ice Climbers, R.O.B., and Pit (prior to Uprising), in that he's a character that had been irrelevant for years, when in his debut in Melee, G&W had a new series with 3 games going for him. (With a 4th that debuted after Melee).

And I love how Diddy and Kuma delude themselves into thinking that Impa replacing Sheik will make Zelda a better character. It won't change anything, just change the target of who they would complain about. "Sheik is bringing Zelda's potential down" will become "Impa is bringing Zelda's potential down", but something tells me that they won't care, as long as everything is fricking relevant for them.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Protagonists should be used loosely for CoD characters

Most of them don't even talk or express any kind of emotion when you play as them *cough* Roach *cough* Soap *cough*

 

[Oasis_S]

I wonder what Kuma would say if Zelda was better than Sheik by competitive standards?

Or if Zelda continues to suck despite being separated.

 

[Diddy Kong]

@Peachy-Desu:

Yeah I know. Her role was something completely else in Skyward Sword.

Spoiler

She even took up the role of sealing away the Triforce, and the knowlegde of it

. She's the GODDESS her personal CHOSEN WARRIOR before Link was born. It kinda says something.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Uhh... no. This isn't "competition" for Sakurai. This game will have a lower budget, smaller cast, less stages, less single-player aspects, less collectables, it won't have a long-lasting competitive scene (like Smash 64 and Melee do), and it will be less unique than smash 4. These are all facts.

Once Smash 4 is announced, it will blow Sony's wanna be game out of the water in sales, competitive community, hype, and quality. Honestly, I doubt this Sony fighting game game will even be half as good as the worst Smash Bros. game (Brawl).

Also, I got a feeling Microsoft is going to try to get Rare to copy this formula. Like everything else Rare has done for Microsoft, it will fail!

Hey John your fanboyism is showing

But seriously, I see no facts, and it would be silly to think that this won't have some sort of impact on how people view SSB4. People are already even thinking this game will be better than SSB4. I'm not saying I agree with that statement, but it is being said.

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say SSB4 is going to be more competitive, it is more likely that this game won't be, and that it'll be more casual, for that is the direction I think Sakurai is wanting to take it now. Not that I am saying this is going to happen, but it very well might happen, and a lot of people think that. This kind of game out there might change Sakurai's perspective of how to do it, considering he is just now starting develop it.

 

[Johnknight1]

I'm aware of Zelda's placing in both games lol. It only goes to show Zelda has a HORRIBLE design. If she still had the ability to Lcancel her air moves.. it wouldn't change the fact she has little - no combos with her current brawl build.. not to mention other characters + revamped vets became better than her overall.

Yeah, Zelda either needs more power, more range, combos, or the ability to spike opponents. Plus ALL freeze frame during attacks (Final Smash super attacks aside) need to be removed entirely. That and her recovery (I think) needs to have less vulnerable frames.

Basically, Zelda needs strengths! She's bad at everything, from wracking up damage (no tech chases or combos), getting kills (no spikes, her KO strength was severely weakened in Brawl), no movement speed (she is slow as heck), not much weight, not too many defensive options, not great at spacing, poor projectiles, and not a great recovery (too many vulnerable frames) that can be easily timed out in Brawl (due to the game being slow; in Melee, this wasn't true).

You're not understanding me, John.
People are classifying G&W in the same vein as the Ice Climbers, R.O.B., and Pit (prior to Uprising), in that he's a character that had been irrelevant for years, when in his debut in Melee, G&W had a new series with 3 games going for him. (With a 4th that debuted after Melee).

That's why I edited the end of my post. Basically, I say that you are right that G&W isn't a "purely retro character" like... say... the Mach Rider.

 

[yani]

People are classifying G&W in the same vein as the Ice Climbers, R.O.B., and Pit (prior to Uprising), in that he's a character that had been irrelevant for years, when in his debut in Melee, G&W had a new series with 3 games going for him. (With a 4th that debuted after Melee).

This is a really good point. I want some G&W Gallery music for his next stage.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Not really true, Hylia can see into the future. It's hinted that Hylia forsaw Link being unable to protect Zelda.. thus sending Impa. There are some time line issues with SS (you can see Zelda sealed in the crystal the first time you ever enter the temple before she has recieved the blessings in the present lol)

 

[Metal Overlord]

How would people think Sony Smash Bros looks "better" than Smash 4 when we haven't even seen Smash 4 gameplay or ANYTHING from that game yet

 

[Deleted member]

I don't see why people are against 3rd Parties in Sony's game. I mean, think about it; many big name titles are 3rd Parties. MGS4 comes right to mind. Spyro and Crash, old PS mascots, should be allowed as well.

I don't have a problem with third-party characters in Sony Smash Bros. as well, but I think they should at least wait until a hypothetical second installment before they start adding guests characters.

Ironically enough, I want more guests (Crash and Spyro) than Sony characters (just... Ratchet & Clank). Not particularly excited for that game.

I think we'll have to wait and see. It really depends on how long have certain details gone into thought before development officially started. Remember, the delay of Uprising pushed development back. What were the people who got hired doing then?

Not sure, but probably concept arts for characters/modes/stages they wanted to see, before coding started.

Best thing of all, if you're willing to think outside the box, he and Ness can easily be redone to where their specials are actually moves they learned.

I'd love to see that. Lucas I can easily see, but I feel as they're done moving around Ness's move set until we see a revamp of Smash (which could be this game for all we know).

 

[Holder of the Heel]

"The constant argument with Diddy is it doesn't make sense for Sheik to get a SS look since she didn't have concept art, and her having her OoT model wouldn't "fit". So if SS Zelda NEEDS to be paired with a SS character, Impa could fit the bill. Sheik can get her own slot with her OoT model. (It's better than having a Zelda and a Toon Zelda right?)."

Sheik could get a SS model though, it isn't impossible to do that.

How would people think Sony Smash Bros looks "better" than Smash 4 when we haven't even seen Smash 4 gameplay or ANYTHING from that game yet

I didn't say people think it looks better than SSB4, I'm saying people think it is going to be better than SSB4.

 

[Johnknight1]

But seriously, I see no facts, and it would be silly to think that this won't have some sort of impact on how people view SSB4.

I don't think Sakurai gives a crap.

People are already even thinking this game will be better than SSB4. I'm not saying I agree with that statement, but it is being said.

Yeah, and people said Ryan Leaf would be better than Peyton Manning. Or that Obama will make American completely better.

See, the thing is, you are basing this off what Sony fanboys have said, instead of basing it off the opinions of people with a more complete perspective (like myself). Plus, we haven't even seen much of this game. Also, Smash 4 will be on a newer console with better graphics, with more popular characters, characters that have been in games that sold more, and characters that are much more well-known. Seriously, Smash Bros. has at least a dozen characters that are more well-known than any of the characters that the most well-known character in Sony's fighting game. Star power sells games, and so does being a constant force in gaming like Smash is. Smash 4 will sell 10 million units. Sony's fighting game won't sell any more than 3 million. I'm booking it.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Yeah, Zelda either needs more power, more range, combos, or the ability to spike opponents. Plus ALL freeze frame during attacks (Final Smash super attacks aside) need to be removed entirely. That and her recovery (I think) needs to have less vulnerable frames.

Basically, Zelda needs strengths! She's bad at everything, from wracking up damage (no tech chases or combos), getting kills (no spikes, her KO strength was severely weakened in Brawl), no movement speed (she is slow as heck), not much weight, not too many defensive options, not great at spacing, poor projectiles, and not a great recovery (too many vulnerable frames) that can be easily timed out in Brawl (due to the game being slow; in Melee, this wasn't true).

Zelda has better ko power than in Melee, momentum cancelling which shouldn't exist but does due to the fact let's face it.. brawl lacks any real hit stun.. =_= made characters live when they shouldn't. Thus making almost everyone weak in brawl.. and having everyone live to stupidly high %s. Zelda lacks a momentum cancel btw (she legit doesn't have one) that's why she seems to die much earlier then the rest of the cast. Zelda has plenty of defence options.. the problem is.. she has NO offence. XD With no real way to force an approach outside of the mini game dins, she suffers from this. Her recovery is one of the worst in the game. (It's the same as wolfs but without the hitboxes when she travels)

 

[Johnknight1]

You're right! Their endless supply of money would get them every CoD protagonist in their game

But in all seriousness they definitely would score good third party characters.

I would imagine Microsoft would land a few Rock Star Games characters (specifically from Grand Theft Auto and Red Dead Redemption, Activision characters (specifically Call of Duty), and maybe a few characters from various fighting games (and someone or two from Fable). Really, Microsoft (I think) has the best relations with 3rd party characters.

Also, I forgot to mention this (as did everyone else), but along with Rare, Halo, and a few RPG characters, Microsoft could get Gears of War characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I love how people ignored my point on Sheik and Impa.
And on how Impa replacing Sheik will do nothing to help Zelda like Diddy and Kuma delude themselves to believe. Just gives them someone else to complain about. (Or at least Kuma. I'm sure Diddy would continuously wet himself over Impa ignoring the fact that Impa would have the same gameplay issues that he berates Sheik for.)

 

[Berserker.]

Hey John your fanboyism is showing

But seriously, I see no facts, and it would be silly to think that this won't have some sort of impact on how people view SSB4. People are already even thinking this game will be better than SSB4. I'm not saying I agree with that statement, but it is being said.

Statements like these already? PSASBR being better than Sm4sh?

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say SSB4 is going to be more competitive, it is more likely that this game won't be, and that'll be more casual, for that is the direction I think Sakurai is wanting to take it now. Not that I am saying this is going to happen, but it very well might happen, and a lot of people think that. This kind of game out there might change Sakurai's perspective of how to do it, considering he is just now starting develop it.

I'm already 100% or 99% assured that it won't be near competitive. The only ones that was seriously hyped was the Sony fans. The rest were either meh or interested. Most competitive players think it's garbage.

The KO system is so..... Specific.... You need at least one meter to KO an opponent. If you have 3 then it's assured that you'll KO everyone. It's awkward.

Stages are extremely gimmicky.. SO FAR. You can't have a normal match if there are stage gimmicks in the way.

Honestly, I don't think Sakurai's perspective will be changed by this game.
-------------------------------------------------

What if.... I think....

Sakurai's probably gonna make an SS designed Sheik like what he did with TP Zelda. She had the ability to transform into Sheik for some reason. Same could happen to SS Zelda IF Sakurai uses her SS design.

 

[Baskerville]

Zelda has better ko power than in Melee, momentum cancelling which shouldn't exist but does due to the fact let's face it.. brawl lacks any real hit stun.. =_= made characters live when they shouldn't. Thus making almost everyone weak in brawl.. and having everyone live to stupidly high %s. Zelda lacks a momentum cancel btw (she legit doesn't have one) that's why she seems to die much earlier then the rest of the cast. Zelda has plenty of defence options.. the problem is.. she has NO offence. XD With no real way to force an approach outside of the mini game dins, she suffers from this. Her recovery is one of the worst in the game. (It's the same as wolfs but without the hitboxes when she travels)

Honestly, the only things I want in Smash 4 is actual hitstun, no random tripping and to have a mechanic where you have no invincibility when constantly planking.

 

[Johnknight1]

Zelda has better ko power than in Melee, momentum cancelling which shouldn't exist but does due to the fact let's face it.. brawl lacks any real hit stun.. =_= made characters live when they shouldn't. Thus making almost everyone weak in brawl.. and having everyone live to stupidly high %s. Zelda lacks a momentum cancel btw (she legit doesn't have one) that's why she seems to die much earlier then the rest of the cast. Zelda has plenty of defence options.. the problem is.. she has NO offence. XD With no real way to force an approach outside of the mini game dins, she suffers from this. Her recovery is one of the worst in the game. (It's the same as wolfs. but without the hitboxes when she travels)

Basically you summed up what I said. But Zelda doesn't have the speed or offensive moves/range to be defensive. So, in other words, Zelda's bad defense makes her offense worse, and Zelda's bad offensive makes her defense worse. It goes both ways, since you can't rely on either of those (like you can with some good characters) in Brawl.

I love how people ignored my point on Sheik and Impa.

I'm just ignoring any Sheik-Impa debate if Diddy Kong is involved.

 

[yani]

Also, I forgot to mention this (as did everyone else), but along with Rare, Halo, and a few RPG characters, Microsoft could get Gears of War characters.

Epic owns the rights to Gears, so it would be third party (just like Layton is still third party for Nintendo) but he would definitely still be in their game

I love how people ignored my point on Sheik and Impa.
And on how Impa replacing Sheik will do nothing to help Zelda like Diddy and Kuma delude themselves to believe. Just gives them someone else to complain about. (Or at least Kuma. I'm sure Diddy would continiously wet himself over Impa ignoring the fact that Impa would have the same gameplay issues that he berates Sheik for.)

It's because we all know it's true

 

[Oasis_S]

I just let my friend know that she shouldn't be allowed to beat me in Smash ever because I play more than her and that she should just be happy tossing around items and junk like a moron because she's a stupid casual that doesn't know what REAL fun is. I'm glad boundaries of skill exist so that we can't have fun together.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Again, HOW can someone say that Sony Smash Bros going to better than Smash 4 when we haven't seen anything from Smash 4 yet. As a matter of fact, this is our first look at Sony Smash Bros, so it would be incredibly stupid to say that a game we haven't even played is going to be better than a game we haven't even seen

... Or maybe I'm just giving people too much credit

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Basically you summed up what I said. But Zelda doesn't have the speed or offensive moves/range to be defensive. So, in other words, Zelda's bad defense makes her offense worse, and Zelda's bad offensive makes her defense worse. It goes both ways, since you can't rely on either of those (like you can with some good characters) in Brawl.

I'm just ignoring any Sheik-Impa debate if Diddy Kong is involved.

Not exactly... Zelda has a GREAT defence game. She has NO way of using it though. If someone actually approaches Zelda.. she's better than 2nd worst character. It's her horrible offence that ruins her great Defence game.

Honestly, the only things I want in Smash 4 is actual hitstun, no random tripping and to have a mechanic where you have no invincibility when constantly planking.

Omg.. I agree 100% The series needs hit stun again.. so actual combo's exist, and camping won't rule the game because of brawls hit and run nature. :/ There's a bunch of characters in Brawl who get ruined due to being unable to combo and some are made better because.. oh look I can 'cancel' my hit stun (=_=) and live till 180 even though I'm a light floaty character! It's just annoying lol. One of the reasons I'm not a huge Brawl fan anymore.

 

[Aurane]

I just let my friend know that she shouldn't be allowed to beat me in Smash ever because I play more than her and that she should just be happy tossing around items and junk like a moron because she's a stupid casual that doesn't know what REAL fun is. I'm glad boundaries of skill exist so that we can't have fun together.

My avatar explains my reaction to this. I hope you're just being Oasis...

Edit: Nvm, I read it wrong. ****.

 

[Baskerville]

@Peachy Desu
To be honest, I like Brawl a hella more.

 

[Johnknight1]

Epic owns the rights to Gears, so it would be third party (just like Layton is still third party for Nintendo) but he would definitely still be in their game

True, but unlike Layton's series, Microsoft already has all the work done so they can easily negotiate Gears of War characters in a Microsoft game. Plus it is free Gears of War advertising, and it would be really stupid to turn that down on Epic's part!

Not exactly... Zelda has a GREAT defence game. She has NO way of using it though. If someone actually approaches Zelda.. she's better than 2nd worst character. It's her horrible offence that ruins her great Defence game.

That's why her defense is as good as garbage. What is the point of having defense if your offense is virtually non-existent=???

 

[Peachy-Desu]

That's why her defense is as good as garbage. What is the point of having defense if your offense is virtually non-existent=???

Lol because you will be amazed that sometimes.. 'sometimes' people actually approach Zelda.. :D

@Peachy Desu
To be honest, I like Brawl a hella more.

I started to dislike brawl once it became a game about CGs, Infinites and Camping for 6-8min lol.

 

[yani]

True, but unlike Layton's series, Microsoft already has all the work done so they can easily negotiate Gears of War characters in a Microsoft game. Plus it is free Gears of War advertising, and it would be really stupid to turn that down on Epic's part!

Conker vs. Marcus in an epic chainsaw clash!

 

[Metal Overlord]

Put this song in Smash

 

[lordvaati]

Statements like these already? PSASBR being better than Sm4sh?

I'm already 100% or 99% assured that it won't be near competitive. The only ones that was seriously hyped was the Sony fans. The rest were either meh or interested. Most competitive players think it's garbage.

The KO system is so..... Specific.... You need at least one meter to KO an opponent. If you have 3 then it's assured that you'll KO everyone. It's awkward.

Stages are extremely gimmicky.. SO FAR. You can't have a normal match if there are stage gimmicks in the way.

Honestly, I don't think Sakurai's perspective will be changed by this game.
-------------------------------------------------

What if.... I think....

Sakurai's probably gonna make an SS designed Sheik like what he did with TP Zelda. She had the ability to transform into Sheik for some reason. Same could happen to SS Zelda IF Sakurai uses her SS design.

actually I think only the Lv.3s are the Killing supers. Lv. 1 and 2 do damage to the opponent's meter.

 

[Aurane]

Oh, so I'm late again. Sony's AllStars have an announcement, too?

 

[Johnknight1]

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to say SSB4 is going to be more competitive, it is more likely that this game won't be, and that it'll be more casual, for that is the direction I think Sakurai is wanting to take it now. Not that I am saying this is going to happen, but it very well might happen, and a lot of people think that. This kind of game out there might change Sakurai's perspective of how to do it, considering he is just now starting develop it

Let's look at the recent smash clones. the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle one had some nice elements, but it didn't work, and wasn't competitive. The Cartoon Network wasn't great either, and it isn't competitive at all. There's probably been other smash bros carbon clones, but none of them have been popular or worked, even with "All-Star" casts.

Judging by how the Sony fighting game works (where you need to go to super mode to get a kill), just the killing mechanic sounds gimmicky. Plus I think the target audience will be awkward. I got a feeling Sony will try to reach to older kids (10 or so) as well as Mortal Kombat-esk gore lovers, on top of obviously fan bases of the series represented in the game and Sony fan boys. In other words, each of these fan bases are only going to moderately like it.

And Sakurai put in all of the competitive depth in smash all by himself. Go look it up. Sakurai created things like wavedashing (although it was in Tekken first), wavelanding, L-cancelling, etc on his own. He also balances the characters for casual and competitive purposes.

Plus quite frankly, Sony's game is still somewhat of a rip-off of Sakurai's original series. I doubt this Sony fighting game will be more original than Smash 64, Melee, or Brawl.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Yeah asage. It's called PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale

I just realized, if Gray Fox ever made it in Smash as a playable character, he would probably love the idea of random tripping and being launched off a stage