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LOL, we would be lucky to get 55 characters, much less 75 or 100. Really guys, keep your expectation levels around 50 characters give or take a few. If we get more yeah. If not, no.
Seriously though, I couldn't even think of 25 characters to add, let alone 25 characters plus say 12 for the on disc game. If that were the case, we wouldn't be arguing/debating over Tingle, Krystal, Medusa, Saki and Issac, but over Impa, Leon, Eggplant Wizard, and Matthew.
Considering the amount of time and money Nintendo pours into the Smash series, I couldn't imagine them saying to a 100-man team or whatever "Alright guys, stick around for a few more months."
It's the kind of EVENT they're going to want to get right the first time. That's why you see so many games have on-disc DLC. Nobody wants to continue working on the game, so they just put stupid stuff on there and make you pay to unlock it. BUSINESS!
I guess my problem on creating the roster is that I thought too much on the characters (and fans) and not enough on the limitations I would have had as a developer. <_>
Yeah, if they add characters for a year we should be thankful. Most developers stop and go on to the next game after maybe one or two DLC related things (mostly patches).
Well, that's why it's DLC. Just churn out a prepared character once every x months, or have a random period of time in which to download DLC characters. That way the characters could be finished without rushing the developers.
Why would Sakurai and co want to keep adding characters when they can make other games/sequels=??? Wouldn't Sakurai and co want to make new games (possibly smash bros-related) after developing these games for 2-5 years=??? Why would he want to do 10 years of DLC (which by the way, to develop that many characters would cost a lot of money for labor). Plus, we would all complain then and say "all you're doing is adding new characters. We want a new game!"
Seriously, MMORPGs are lucky to get 10 years of updates. Fighting games=??? That's impossible, unless they only make one game, and the updates cost a lot (and the fan base is loyal and buys all the updates). I think you need to step back and think about this man.
I guess my problem on creating the roster is that I thought too much on the characters (and fans) and not enough on the limitations I would have had as a developer. <_>
Yeah, if they add characters for a year we should be thankful. Most developers stop and go on to the next game after maybe one or two DLC related things (mostly patches).
Why would Sakurai and co want to keep adding characters when they can make other games/sequels=??? Wouldn't Sakurai and co want to make new games (possibly smash bros-related) after developing these games for 2-5 years=??? Why would he want to do 10 years of DLC (which by the way, to develop that many characters would cost a lot of money for labor). Plus, we would all complain then and say "all you're doing is adding new characters. We want a new game!"
Seriously, MMORPGs are lucky to get 10 years of updates. Fighting games=??? That's impossible, unless they only make one game, and the updates cost a lot (and the fan base is loyal and buys all the updates). I think you need to step back and think about this man.
Small, huh? Well, don't worry, this is just the starting roster. Here's your quota of hidden characters:
Looks nicer now, doesn't it? But what if you'd just like to spend a few bucks to get some amazing extras? This is where the DLC characters come in:
Now that sounds more appealing, doesn't it? Now let's add hidden and DLC characters together:
Exciting, isn't it? Now, what do we come to? The finale:
Now that's a spicy meatball! But, did it get too confusing? Don't worry, I've got it Colour Coded For Your Convenience. Blue is hidden, green is DLC:
But if you think there are too many DLC characters... well, we can just pretend they're Adventure Mode hidden characters. But now you're thinking, "what's that Special slot for?" Well, assuming Smash 4 brings back "A-button combat only", the Special slot allows you to select the alloys AND specific Assist Trophies for use IN THIS MODE ONLY. unless you hack the game, then you can have them anywhere
First off, only 15 on the starting roster, with the only one newcomer? Not good.
Beyond that, to the character picks. For one, the DLC characters. Sakurai said that he likes all of the Brawl characters, so why would Toon Link, ROB, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario and especially Olimar, be DLC exclusive?
I could say this for Mewtwo as well, as he is one of the most popular "newcomer" choices.
On to the roster itself...
First, you more than doubled the Brawl roster. I can safely say that I will eat my house if that happens, and I DO NOT want to be homeless.
The fact of the matter is that most of the additions are completely unnecessary.
By series:
Super Mario: One of the only series that I have no problems with your choices. Except Doc, but I can look past him.
Donkey Kong Country: Where. Is. King. K. Rool. With 75 slots, K. Rool should be here.
Yoshi's Island: Meh, not too crazy about Kamek or his chances.
Legend of Zelda: Woah. Lotta Zelda characters. I just don't think Impa AND Ghirahim will make it. I'd pick one, preferably Ghirahim.
Metroid: Frankly, I only think it will get one, namely Ridley. Maybe two, at most.
Kid Icarus: For the ridiculous amount of characters, no new KI rep is surprising.
Kirby: Not liking Marx. I think it'll be Bandanna Dee or Bust.
Pikmin: Good, just make Olimar a starter.
StarFox: If we even get another rep, which I find unlikely, it'll be Krystal. No Leon. If I were you, I'd ditch both.
Pokemon: Holy Flying Opossums that's too many. First off, not liking 5 Gen V reps. I say ditch the new trainer and either Victini or Zoroark. I say drop Pichu as well.
Ice Climbers: Good.
Punch-Out!!: Ummm...three? No. It's probably gonna be just Mac. The series isn't too popular in Japan. And ESPECIALLY not Super Macho Man.
Wario Series: No complaints.
Fire Emblem: My problem's with Lyn. She's hated in Japan, apparently, and, IIRC, not a lord (lady?). And she's old, which hurts characters in a series like Fire Emblem.
Mother: Oy vey...5? And NONE are Porky or Masked Man? Not cool. Those other 3 most likely won't happen.
F-Zero: I like Falcon and Goroh, but not BS. I just don't find him necessary.
ROB: Good.
Game and Watch: Cool-io.
Third Parties: No. 13 new Third-Parties? In a NINTENDO game? One per company, I say. SO Mega Man, Snake, Sonic. No one else on your list. Even if I do love Sparkster...
New Retros: Why are there no new retros? Tisk tisk...
So, if I could chop up your roster, I'd do....
-Kamek
-Impa or Ghirahim
-Dark Samus or Anthony.
-Marx
-Leon
-Krystal
-Pichu
-Dr. Mario
-Gen V Trainer
-Victini or Zoroark
-King Hippo
-Super Macho Man
-Lyn
-Poo
-Duster
-Jeff
-Black Shadow
-All 3rd Party newcomers not named Mega Man.
This would bring you to 47. While you're add it,
+ King K. Rool
+ A Retro (Muddy preferably )
+ A Kid Icarus Character (Palutena or Medusa)
@ Oasis
There are characters that justify it... just not 25. Maybe arguably 10 at most. Probably 5 would be really "justified."
@ LC-DDM
Unless Sakurai allows users to make coding for other characters to unofficially release characters, it will not happen (that many characters).
Plus Sakurai will want to focus on making future games, not improve one game (even in his spare time) for a decade.
It's funny, because at least 20 of those characters he listed are absolute crap.
Another problem is that, you'll want to have the really popular characters in the game first. DLC would be full of obscure characters no one really cares about.
So you guys, what if Pokémon Black and White II properly introduces Genesect? If the sequel advances the original story from B/W, which it probably will, maybe we can expect to see Team Plasma tinkering with our little ancient insect friend.
It's funny, because at least 20 of those characters he listed are absolute crap.
Another problem is that, you'll want to have the really popular characters in the game first. DLC would be full of obscure characters no one really cares about.
Exactly. DLC for instance for MvC3 had Jill Valentine and someone else. I mean, let's say the entire Brawl roster, plus Mewtwo, Roy, Bowser Jr., Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Ridley, Zoroark, Issac, Takamaru, Little Mac, and Mega Man to give us an even 50 on disc. Then, 25 DLC characters were added to get a 75 playable character total.
[COLLAPSE="Which 25 characters would follow=??? Here is my list:"]1. Dr. Mario
2. Toad
3. Paper Mario
4. Tingle
5. Vatti
6. Knuckle Joe
7. Bandana Dee
8. Krystal
9. Pichu
10. Deoxys
11. Plusle and Minun
12. Victini
13. Samurai Goroh
14. Black Shadow
15. Te Masked Man/Claus.
16. Lyn
17. Krom
18. Paletuna
19. Medusa
20. Saki
21. Mach Rider
22. The Balloon Fighter
23. Tails
24. Geno
25. Pac-Man[/COLLAPSE]
I really had to think to make this list...
No, I'm pretty sure there were other blank victory themes that fell in between characters. That would explain the jump in numbers like with much of the other cut content:
We haven't even had the roster size increase by more than 14 through sequels (and yes, that is a valid way to add characters). Why the heck would we suddenly get a crap ton more than that=??? Unless these two games are developed for a decade, it ain't happening.
Actually we got 18 newcomers in Brawl even though we cut 5 veterans.
1. Meta Knight
2. Pit
3. Zero Suit Samus
4. Wario
5. Snake
6. Ike
7. Squirtle
8. Ivysaur
9. Charizard
10. Diddy Kong
11. Sonic
12. Lucas
13. King Dedede
14. Olimar
15. Lucario
16. R.O.B.
17. Toon Link
18. Wolf
25 slots with 26 characters - 5 slots/characters = 20 slots with 21 characters + 15 slots with 18 characters = 35 slots with 39 characters.
The roster size, at the most, from smash game to smash game, increased by 14 in Melee (14 newcomers) from Smash 64 (12 characters total).
In Brawl, Young Link was made into the more recent Toon Link, 4 Melee newcomers were cut, and 17 newcomers were added (giving us 13 more characters than Melee).
Okay. I want him in, but only if we have enough extra slots. I want Jr. and Toad in first before him, since they're widely better choices, even to me. And far more important to the regular series.
Only problem I've had with Toad is a failure to imagine a moveset for him. But I'd prefer Bowser Jr. any day. He seems like the character who'd have interesting gimmicks with that paint brush. Toad seems bland but maybe something would work out. But Smash needs more villains anyway.
Look around. Many people have thought up great movesets for him. Thanks to New Super Mario Bros. Wii, people have made even better ones. Keep in mind it came out after Brawl, so it's possible that Sakurai could now imagine a moveset for him. Especially since this is his second major playable appearance.(first being Super Mario Bros. 2 USA) We don't need to speak more on Jr. since we already are on the same page.
Wario made his debut as the main antagonist in a Game Boy game sometime in the early 90's(I forgot the title) with the intent of him being the mirrored, bad boy version of Mario.
And he grew out of that and became the star of two series. You see, you just described Waluigi, who never actually went beyond that. He may be more of a jerk, so Waluigi has his own unique personality... but that's it.
Fair enough. Wouldn't a nerf to their grab game do the job better than removing an entire character?
You missed the point and I think you're forgetting that Victini is this generations small cute uber similar to Mew, Celebi, Jirachi..etc At most he'd be a Pokeball special, similar to past games. I never really indicated that Zoruark was 'popular'. Rather, like Lucario he was among the first Pokemon to debut representing his generation. Also, take into consideration that Zoruark was featured in his own Pokemon movie much like Lucario was.
Oh, no, let's not compare them. First, Victini was released very early on, and was pretty easy to get a copy of. Second, unlike them, he's just not another typical psychic type, he's far different and while mostly a backseat helper(a support character), he doesn't even fight like the rest. Zoroark doesn't rep the generation. Victini is the only one that GameFreak has shown support for, in fact, he's the only Legendary besides Mew and Mewtwo to have multiple movies.
The problem is, Victini does not play like any other character. Comparing him to Pokeball Pokemon is silly no matter how much you think they seem alike. The fact that he has the capability of gliding already changes everything from those small guys. He can indeed have a completely unique moveset that isn't a feral fighter.
No Pokemon can really compare to Pikachus iconic status( Though Jiggz is pretty big in Japan I hear) within the franchise so that's an irrelevant point. Lucario was never labeled the mascot Pikachu was either. Aside from Zoruark I can't really imagine any other viable 5th generation rep. He's the perfect candidate.
He's not the "perfect" candidate. He never was. That's nothing but a personal opinion. Jigglypuff actually is kind of popular now in the Pokemon franchise, but is just a veteran in Smash. Her popularity isn't that low. Lucario, however, was the regular rep of Gen IV, as unlike Zoroark, gained immense popularity, and, also, was easily available without some annoying event, meaning that players could easily play as him without issues. However, Zoroark doesn't have that option. The only way to get a copy of him is to trade or download. You cannot get him normally. Now, there's a ton of choices for a 5th Gen rep, and so far, Victini is in the lead in actual character importance. He wins hands-down on who the possibly rep is.
The roster size, at the most, from smash game to smash game, increased by 14 in Melee (14 newcomers) from Smash 64 (12 characters total).
In Brawl, Young Link was made into the more recent Toon Link, 4 Melee newcomers were cut, and 17 newcomers were added (giving us 13 more characters than Melee).
64 gave us 12 characters in 12 slots. Melee gave us 14 characters in 13 slots. Brawl gave us 17 (I guess since no one really counts Toon Link as a newcomer) characters in 14 slots. It seems that the number of new slots increases by one... so IMO, it is possible we might get 15 more slots in Smash 4... as for the actual number of newcomers, it could be somewhere between 15-20 characters, I dunno... it depends on whether we get any more transformation characters or not and whether some characters get cut/replaced or not (there's no guarantee that some of them might or might not get cut).
64 gave us 12 characters in 12 slots. Melee gave us 14 characters in 13 slots. Brawl gave us 18 characters in 14 slots. It seems that the number of new slots increases by one... so IMO, it is possible we might get 15 more slots in Smash 4... as for the actual number of newcomers, it could be somewhere between 15-20 characters, I dunno... it depends on whether we get any more transformation characters or not and whether some characters get cut/replaced or not (there's no guarantee that some of them might or might not get cut).
Personally, I judge it based on characters. Slots smots. Gimme characters!
It is possible what you are saying though (getting 15 slots), although 20 newcomers seems way far fetched. 15 is possibly (a bit unlikely, but possible). 20 sounds like too much.
In business it's easier and cheaper to keep clients than to get new ones. I imagine the same thing is true with playable characters in smash bros. Keep that in mind with veterans.
Exactly. DLC for instance for MvC3 had Jill Valentine and someone else. I mean, let's say the entire Brawl roster, plus Mewtwo, Roy, Bowser Jr., Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, Ridley, Zoroark, Issac, Takamaru, Little Mac, and Mega Man to give us an even 50 on disc. Then, 25 DLC characters were added to get a 75 playable character total.
[COLLAPSE="Which 25 characters would follow=??? Here is my list:"]1. Dr. Mario
2. Toad
3. Paper Mario
4. Tingle
5. Vatti
6. Knuckle Joe
7. Bandana Dee
8. Krystal
9. Pichu
10. Deoxys
11. Plusle and Minun
12. Victini
13. Samurai Goroh
14. Black Shadow
15. Te Masked Man/Claus.
16. Lyn
17. Krom
18. Paletuna
19. Medusa
20. Saki
21. Mach Rider
22. The Balloon Fighter
23. Tails
24. Geno
25. Pac-Man[/COLLAPSE]
I really had to think to make this list...
I still don't think any 3rd Parties will have more than one rep. And I don't get why Anthony Higgs is so requested. Same with Ghirahim. What's the deal with them?
Personally, I judge it based on characters. Slots smots. Gimme characters!
It is possible what you are saying though (getting 15 slots), although 20 newcomers seems way far fetched. 15 is possibly (a bit unlikely, but possible). 20 sounds like too much.
In business it's easier and cheaper to keep clients than to get new ones. I imagine the same thing is true with playable characters in smash bros. Keep that in mind with veterans.
Oh, boy... it is so hard to pick which characters could fill out those 15 slots. Well... I could cut Lucario and Ike... and give their slots to Zoroark (or Victini) and Krom respectively. I could cut Toon Link and give his slot to Tingle... while replacing Sheik with Impa while she shares the same slot with Zelda (effectively trolling both Sheik and Impa fanbases even though Impa is basically the updated Sheik). That is four newcomers so far... and I haven't even used up those 15 empty slots. In my dream roster, those 15 slots could be filled out by:
1. Dixie Kong & Kiddy Kong
2. King K. Rool
3. Meowth or Team Rocket (Meowth, Meowth & Arbok, Meowth & Weezing)
4. Mewtwo
5. Palutena
6. Medusa
7. Little Mac
8. King Hippo
9. Takamaru
10. Ducks & Hunting Dog
11. Starfy
12. Mii
13. Toad
14. Ridley
15. Mega Man or Bad Box Art Mega Man (either one is fine with me)
Cut 4 veterans (Lucario, Ike, Sheik, Toon Link) and add about 18 newcomers plus Mewtwo... very nice!!! Not a bad trade-off, IMO.
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