New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Big-Cat]

SmashChu, I think you're limiting yourself on characters going off of your criteria. Even Sakurai has said that a roster full of only popular characters doesn't excite him. Instead, look at not only interesting characters, but look as to what they can add to the game. In other words, does this character have anything that hasn't been done before, but don't think of anything too limiting here either as your list of newcomers will narrow down quickly.

 

[SmashChu]

EDIT: http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/ssbb/vol7_page3.jsp

There's 1 source, I'll take me some time to find the other.

No prob. I really care about the third party one. I know about the once in a lifetime thing, just not from where.

But the thing is he already made them work once, which would make it much easier to do it again ( for snake and sonic that is). Kinda stupid if you have to pay to use snake considering he was begged if you ask me /facepalm

Don't like to do this, but the points are pretty independent.

It's not easy. Snake went though a lot of trouble. And as Sakurai said, there has been people externally and internally who do not agree with it.

It definitely is a Nintendo all star game, but he still broke his rule, and in doing so he KNOWS people are going to request 3rd parties now. Kinda F'd himself

Doesn't matter. Sakurai tries to have some amount of consistency in this game and he know third parties break that to some extent. He's not going to keep doing it just cause. Also, remember how he's said he doesn't go with popular characters.

And with SC, the guests are usually console exclusive (Link for GC Spawn for Xbox, Yoda for 360, Vader for PS3) which I would say is really to determine which system you'll buy the game for (for the multi-system owners of course). Even with Sega All-Star Racing, 360 version had Banjo which was the selling point to get it for 360 as opposed to buying it for Wii or PS3 (wii was supposed to have Mario )

Note first that SC isn't the only game that does it. Lots of other games do it too. I believe Tekkan 3 had one as well. Same rule applies. heck, ROB hasn't return in Mario Kart and that's within the same company.

Second, note how they don't come back. Actually, that paragraph has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Why does it matter that the games were multiplatform?

Unless you know of a game that featured guests that wasn't multi-platform (or was but had the same guests in each game) then I think my argument just might be fair game

What argument. You talked about something totally irrelevant. What does multiplatform have to do with anything we are talking about.

edit- to the other conversation, Sakurai said including Snake he may put 1 or 2 more 3rd parties. I know for a fact I saw that somewhere, which is why everyone believed there would be three 3rd parties

Yeah, he did. And he only added one..........towards the end of the game.

I would like to state that the third party thing was a single sentence in my big post and you wanted to roll with that. Kind of missing the point.

 

[Big-Cat]

Oh my God......

I'm just speechless right now.

 

[SmashChu]

SmashChu, I think you're limiting yourself on characters going off of your criteria. Even Sakurai has said that a roster full of only popular characters doesn't excite him. Instead, look at not only interesting characters, but look as to what they can add to the game. In other words, does this character have anything that hasn't been done before, but don't think of anything too limiting here either as your list of newcomers will narrow down quickly.

I know what your saying. You want to look at "unique," characters. I made a big post on why we don't look at it that way. When using the 4 criteria Sakurai used, a character has to meet all 4. Not just 1. The one I'm talking about (character has to make people want to play the game) is really the make or break. The rest are pretty easy for most characters to make.

 

[yani_]

The point being all the games you've listed with guests are multi-platform. They use characters to sell their games on different systems. Smash is only available on Nintendo consoles, which means they don't need to add one-time guests to it, they are more then welcome to stay provided that the companies allow it. ROB wasn't used as a guest to say "Oh hey ROBS in the game come buy it" like Sonic & Snake, which is probably why he was cut in future games. Sakurai is smart. He's not going to say lets add guests one time and not do it again. Whether it be the current two returning or new ones.

He said he doesn't go with popular characters yet Sonic got in..doesn't matter if it was towards the end, he knew he was the most wanted character and got it done.

 

[Big-Cat]

But what does "make people want to play" mean really? I don't think it's just about who is popular. It can also be about meeting certain playstyle niches. Some people may want to play a certain way that would only be possible with a specific character. Let's say that someone likes to play with a lot of projectiles. If there's a character in Sm4sh that plays that way, they'll be more interested in the game.

 

[SmashChu]

The point being all the games you've listed with guests are multi-platform. They use characters to sell their games on different systems. Smash is only available on Nintendo consoles, which means they don't need to add one-time guests to it, they are more then welcome to stay provided that the companies allow it. ROB wasn't used as a guest to say "Oh hey ROBS in the game come buy it" like Sonic & Snake, which is probably why he was cut in future games. Sakurai is smart. He's not going to say lets add guests one time and not do it again. Whether it be the current two returning or new ones.

He said he doesn't go with popular characters yet Sonic got in..doesn't matter if it was towards the end, he knew he was the most wanted character and got it done.

The question is not why they leave. For all you know, the Polish make them do it. The fact is it does happen. Why is relevant in this situation? The fact is they don't come back. Heck, you didn't even give a reason for why they can stay if it's not multiplatform. There is no connection to draw there. I mean, if it was to sell game, wouldn't they keep bringing those same guest back on that platform to boost sales? The argument is just a mess.

Again, your harping on one point out of three to make a silly argument. This will go nowhere.

But what does "make people want to play" mean really? I don't think it's just about who is popular. It can also be about meeting certain playstyle niches. Some people may want to play a certain way that would only be possible with a specific character. Let's say that someone likes to play with a lot of projectiles. If there's a character in Sm4sh that plays that way, they'll be more interested in the game.

No, that is the opposite of what happens and I spent a lot of time making a huge post on why that isn't how it works.

Playstyle niches aren't fun, and they encourage adding characters people really don't care about. Fact of the matter is you can make any character unique, and we have a thread in this forum dedicated to doing just that. That is why characters that are likable are added. Ones people will think are interesting, even if they don't know about them. The first focus is whether or not people will like this character. The second step is making the moves and what not.

 

[yani_]

You're missing the point. Multi-platforms can't keep the same guests. It would be a mess, where as it wouldn't matter if Smash kept the same guests. You brought in the points of guests leaving SC, not me. That being said I have to finish this research essay and go to class soon, so I'll be back in a few hours

 

[Big-Cat]

No, that is the opposite of what happens and I spent a lot of time making a huge post on why that isn't how it works.

Playstyle niches aren't fun, and they encourage adding characters people really don't care about. Fact of the matter is you can make any character unique, and we have a thread in this forum dedicated to doing just that. That is why characters that are likable are added. Ones people will think are interesting, even if they don't know about them. The first focus is whether or not people will like this character. The second step is making the moves and what not.

"But when it comes to the characters," he continues, "there's a degree of balance to getting it right. The popularity of the character is important, for instance, as is the consideration of whether the character has a unique ability that only he, she or it can bring to the game."

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/5437/featuresan-audience-with-masahiro-sakurai/

This implies that he looks into playstyles as well when deciding characters.

To me, those two steps you mentioned happen at the same time.

 

[SmashChu]

You're missing the point. Multi-platforms can't keep the same guests. It would be a mess, where as it wouldn't matter if Smash kept the same guests. You brought in the points of guests leaving SC, not me. That being said I have to finish this research essay and go to class soon, so I'll be back in a few hours

None of what you've said has made any sense. You never draw a connection. Why is it X. You never say. I'm not going to continue with this because A)You don't know what your doing and B)You only want to focus on one thing.

"But when it comes to the characters," he continues, "there's a degree of balance to getting it right. The popularity of the character is important, for instance, as is the consideration of whether the character has a unique ability that only he, she or it can bring to the game."

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/5437/featuresan-audience-with-masahiro-sakurai/

This implies that he looks into playstyles as well when deciding characters.

To me, those two steps you mentioned happen at the same time.

EDIT:Better point

He didn't say anything about playstyles. He mentioned "abilities," which means anything. This is like Ghirahim and his daggers or the fact Zoroark can create an illusion of someone else. This isn't looking at a potential moveset but "what can X character do." Your inferring the playstyle thing and a lot more. This is more you looking for a preconceived conclusion than looking for what is.

 

[---]

Well it's nice to see that for once I'm not the one who has to repost the character criteria. lol

 

[SmashChu]

Well it's nice to see that for once I'm not the one who has to repost the character criteria. lol

Haha true. Although you say that as I delete it and rewrite my post. But what the heck, might as well post it again.

1. The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.

2. The character must be unique.

3. The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.

4. They must contribute to the game balance.

 

[masterluigi1]

I could go on and on about how third parties wont be added, but I'll say this.

1)It is not a walk in the park to add any third party character. You have to go though a lot of legality, and pay fees to use them. Sakurai has also gone on record say it's harder to make third party characters work than building a game from the ground up. Adding them isn't easy and having a lot of them (3,4 or even 5) is hard to keep up

just because it's hard doesn't mean it won't happen

2)As much as you think otherwise, the game is still a Nintendo All Star game. Sakurai has defined it as such and it's plastered all over the game in terms of advertisements

yeah, and it was a nintendo all star game when they put in sonic and snake.
this point is irrelevent.

3)Games have guest characters all the time (which is what the third parties are. Sakurai even said that on the Dojo). Usually they are kicked out after a game. They rarely, if ever, come back. This is why you don't see Yoda in SC5. You also wont see banjo in the next Sega All-Stars game. I'm sure there are more.

i don't see why sonic and snake will be cut.

sonic(because of ssbb) already has MANY crossover games with mario and the developer for snake wanted him in.

also comparing comparing smash to soul calibur(a multiplatform game)is absurd
soul calibur is a series that puts third parties in to sell on that particular console.

lol youre acting like adding third parties is THE SAME for every game.

 

[Shorts]

OH CHU, do you REALLY think that I think we would be getting ALL those characters from that list? I added Junior AND Toad just because I feel there is a SLIGHT chance I may have wrote Junior off prematurely.

Not going to ARGUE the third party characters, because I don't give a crap about them. I put them on there to BOOST my number. STILL, the other 22 are definite candidates. Some are stronger than others, of course.

Also, your new avi is very scary.

onic(because of ssbb) already has MANY crossover games with mario and the developer for snake wanted him in.

Actually, it was Mario and Sonic at the OG...

 

[SmashChu]

Geez what is with kids and thinking third party characters will stay. It's only them. Most other posters who have actually been here a while get it. I'll do this one quick, and than I'm done. Gonna move onto a big post......again.

just because it's hard doesn't mean it won't happen

You try to go from making already different Nintendo characters fit and than making a character from a totally different company with different culture and processes and try and make them work too.

If you look at Snakes progression, you''ll see what I mean.

yeah, and it was a nintendo all star game when they put in sonic and snake.
this point is irrelevent.

Actually, it's the most important point.

The game is about Nintendo and their characters. That's the focus of the game. Thigns outside of it are not. Cross over games are fragile as is, so trying to tip it will destory the game. Sounds crazy, but try and find me some successful cross over games. Most don't become as big as Smash. The Vs Games, Sega All-Stars, Namco X Capcom, Jump Ultimate Super Stars, DreamMix TV World Fighters. All of them did bad. The Sega one was probably he most successful and I don't think ti broke 2 million. Keeping focus is what helps the game sell. Otherwise, it would only appeal to diehard players.

i don't see why sonic and snake will be cut.

sonic(because of ssbb) already has MANY crossover games with mario and the developer for snake wanted him in.

also comparing comparing smash to soul calibur(a multiplatform game)is absurd
soul calibur is a series that puts third parties in to sell on that particular console.

lol youre acting like adding third parties is THE SAME for every game.

Yeah, let's forget about legal issues and money. Yeah, they'll be back because those things exist. Sarcasm aside, you don't understand what goes into these games. It's not a simple matter. Heck, even internally, you have to get a lot of approval.

Also, not sure why Soul Caliber is irrelevant to these people. Probably because they have to argue around it lest their points fall apart.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Anything seems possible. And I think there are more characters than the forbidden 7 that Sakurai considered. He probably doesn't want to reveal them Cause they're the newcomers of Smash 4.

 

[Deleted member]

@SmashChu: Not to refute your point, but the Mario & Sonic at the Olympic games were extremely successful.

On to another topic, Waluigi has got to be the most overrated character I have ever seen for a potential candidate for SSB4. Mario Kart 7 shows he is disposable and cannot properly represent the spin-off games. If people are so desperate to support someone to represent it so badly, then I'd argue that Toad would do a better job since he has appeared in more spin-off games then Waluigi can ever hope to be in.

So I want to ask a few people here this; do you think Toad represent the spin-offs better then Waluigi? I would say so.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If Waluigi was so important or unique as a character he'd be in Wario games. Toad and Jr. are far better characters.

 

[---]

3rd Parties are something I can live without, as I find them optional. Still getting one is like winning the lottery IMO. lol

On another note though, it seems to be everyone vs. SmashChu right now. Kuma must be so happy.

 

[Deleted member]

If Waluigi was so important or unique as a character he'd be in Wario games. Toad and Jr. are far better characters.

This. Outside of a cameo appearance in a WarioWare game, he has made no appearance in a Wario game. Waluigi may be extremely well known in spin-offs, but in importance, he pales in comparison to Toad, Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, and even Daisy, Rosalina, and Toadette as they were at least in one main title.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

@SmashChu: Not to refute your point, but the Mario & Sonic at the Olympic games were extremely successful.

On to another topic, Waluigi has got to be the most overrated character I have ever seen for a potential candidate for SSB4. Mario Kart 7 shows he is disposable and cannot properly represent the spin-off games. If people are so desperate to support someone to represent it so badly, then I'd argue that Toad would do a better job since he has appeared in more spin-off games then Waluigi can ever hope to be in.

So I want to ask a few people here this; do you think Toad represent the spin-offs better then Waluigi? I would say so.

I think Toad would be a much better spin-off rep. Most people(I believe) say Mario Kart is Waluigi's saving grace(or at least gives him a better chance). Toad has been in more Mario Karts and pretty much every spin-off anyway. Toad is much higher in priority.
Regardless, I don't support either... But I support Toad over Waluigi.

 

[Shorts]

On to another topic, Waluigi has got to be the most overrated character I have ever seen for a potential candidate for SSB4. Mario Kart 7 shows he is disposable and cannot properly represent the spin-off games.

Why would you use Mario Kart as any sort of proof of anything?...

You do realize Junior and Diddy were both absent, and are usuals in the MK series. Does this mean they're disposable. MK is so RANDOM, don't take anything other than stage concepts and music from it.

So I want to ask a few people here this; do you think Toad represent the spin-offs better then Waluigi? I would say so.

I don't think it matters. What matters is Toad and Junior are honestly the only real choices left. Waluigi is a joke. Paper Mario is unrealistic, Geno is a big ???, and every other Mario character doesn't matter. OH, I suppose there is Doc...? But to play the game, I would say YES. Spin-Offs are where Toad shines.

 

[Gallowglass]

Haha true. Although you say that as I delete it and rewrite my post. But what the heck, might as well post it again.
1. The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.

2. The character must be unique.

3. The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.

4. They must contribute to the game balance.

I don't know how this list works in SSB correctly. Overall it's pretty solid but there are exception to each rule.

1. You can list all the WTF character for this. I mean when you first saw ROB and G&W did you really get excited to play them? Now don't get me wrong they are great character but did anyone by buy Melee because Ice Climbers were in it?

2. Throughout Smash there have been un-original characters. 64 had Mario and Luigi, Melee your had the clones like Pichu, and Brawl you still have characters like Falco and Lucas.

3. This one I had the biggest problem mainly because of Snake. The metal gear characters stand out like a sore thumb. I would think with enough imagination nearly every main character could fit in SSB.

4. Yeah it's hard to balance when you have character like Metaknight and Ganondorf.

I'm not saying you're wrong but the idea isn't completely sound either. Sometimes when I think Sakurai goes out of his way to break every logical pattern in creating a roster.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@SmashChu: Not to refute your point, but the Mario & Sonic at the Olympic games were extremely successful.

On to another topic, Waluigi has got to be the most overrated character I have ever seen for a potential candidate for SSB4. Mario Kart 7 shows he is disposable and cannot properly represent the spin-off games. If people are so desperate to support someone to represent it so badly, then I'd argue that Toad would do a better job since he has appeared in more spin-off games then Waluigi can ever hope to be in.

So I want to ask a few people here this; do you think Toad represent the spin-offs better then Waluigi? I would say so.

Bowser Jr. and Diddy Kong got the same treatment as Waluigi for Mario Kart 7, but at least those two had mainstream roles.

 

[Big-Cat]

Anything seems possible. And I think there are more characters than the forbidden 7 that Sakurai considered. He probably doesn't want to reveal them Cause they're the newcomers of Smash 4.

While I wouldn't say they indicate who would be potential newcomers, it does give some insight on how the design process works. It wouldn't surprise me if the forbidden seven were characters they had partial movesets for at one point and not just empty files waiting to be worked on (assuming they had stuff in them before going gold).

 

[Deleted member]

Why would you use Mario Kart as any sort of proof of anything?...

You do realize Junior and Diddy were both absent, and are usuals in the MK series. Does this mean they're disposable. MK is so RANDOM, don't take anything other than stage concepts and music from it.

Diddy Kong and Bowser Jr. have played important roles in mainstream games (Donkey Kong and Super Mario Bros. respectively), which makes them difficult to dispose of. Waluigi has not made a single major mainstream appearance (as we all know). Also note that Diddy and Bowser Jr. were not in Mario Kart DS whereas Waluigi was, so like 99% of people expected Waluigi to return. The very fact that Waluigi failed to appear in the most important spin-off in years is not just due to randomness, but Nintendo deciding he was not important enough to be in this game.

 

[masterluigi1]

Geez what is with kids and thinking third party characters will stay. It's only them. Most other posters who have actually been here a while get it. I'll do this one quick, and than I'm done. Gonna move onto a big post......again.

kid...lol i'd say you're the one acting like a kid

You try to go from making already different Nintendo characters fit and than making a character from a totally different company with different culture and processes and try and make them work too.

If you look at Snakes progression, you''ll see what I mean.

snake got in brawl though and he's someone that no one would expect let alone fit in over lets say megaman

Actually, it's the most important point.

The game is about Nintendo and their characters. That's the focus of the game. Thigns outside of it are not. Cross over games are fragile as is, so trying to tip it will destory the game. Sounds crazy, but try and find me some successful cross over games. Most don't become as big as Smash. The Vs Games, Sega All-Stars, Namco X Capcom, Jump Ultimate Super Stars, DreamMix TV World Fighters. All of them did bad. The Sega one was probably he most successful and I don't think ti broke 2 million. Keeping focus is what helps the game sell. Otherwise, it would only appeal to diehard players.

it's seems as if you're trying to brush me off as if i'm nothing and ignore all my points....
do you not understand that this was a nintendo all star game when snake and sonic got in... I never said the the fact that this is a nintendo all star is irrellevent I said that YOU bringing it up is irrelevent.

Yeah, let's forget about legal issues and money. Yeah, they'll be back because those things exist. Sarcasm aside, you don't understand what goes into these games. It's not a simple matter. Heck, even internally, you have to get a lot of approval.

Also, not sure why Soul Caliber is irrelevant to these people. Probably because they have to argue around it lest their points fall apart.

lol..it's funny that you think I don't know this yet you completely ignore mario and sonic at the olypics(which I brought up)

not sure how my points fell apart when you didn't even address them.

 

[SmashChu]

kid...lol i'd say you're the one acting like a kid

Your grammar gives you away (and this is from someone who makes a lot of mistakes).

 

[Big-Cat]

So wouldn't mean that you're a kid as well?

 

[Deleted member]

SmashChu, while you're here, what do you think of Mii's? Do you think they will appear in the game? I personally am not excited for them, but they are IMO highly deserving.

 

[SmashChu]

So wouldn't mean that you're a kid as well?

Difference between mistakes and "I can't capitalize anything."

SmashChu, while you're here, what do you think of Mii's? Do you think they will appear in the game? I personally am not excited for them, but they are IMO highly deserving.

Maybe. You know, I'm not really sure. I would think so just because they aren't much different from adding ROB or Mr. Game and Watch and the Wii series was a big new series. I'd figure that they would be one of those funky characters with a lot of varying moves. It really comes down to "are they a character," I don't think Sakurai would disagree.

 

[Metal Overlord]

Grammar? Seriously? One of the most piss-poor, strawman arguments in existence?

We're on a public forum, for god's sake, not at a job interview or some ****. Not everyone cares about that type of trivial crap; just because the person of interest doesn't display top-notch grammar doesn't mean they're a kid. It could mean they're just more laid-back, but whatever. It doesn't matter if you don't use capitalization or make small errors or whatever, the main points is what you should be focusing on. As long as the content itself is sound, as long as they don't sound like a ******* and you can understand their posts clearly, it doesn't matter how it's delivered, period.

 

[masterluigi1]

Grammar? Seriously? One of the most piss-poor, strawman arguments in existence?

We're on a public forum, for god's sake, not at a job interview or some ****. Not everyone cares about that type of trivial crap; just because the person of interest doesn't display top-notch grammar doesn't mean they're a kid. It could mean they're just more laid-back, but whatever. It doesn't matter if you don't use capitalization or make small errors or whatever, the main points is what you should be focusing on. As long as the content itself is sound, it doesn't matter how it's delivered, period.

yes this lol

 

[Conviction]

In others words if the grammar and spelling aren't obstructing the content and how it is interperted, shut up and get over it.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Arguing about something so trivial and off topic really doesn't make anyone here look any better, so let's get back on topic shall we?

Honestly I'm not excited for Miis myself... but I wouldn't be surprised if they were in some way playable in the game. What if they are the customizable characters that Sakurai talked about? It would make a lot of sense that way wouldn't it? I really don't think they should be playable in the game just because they aren't actual characters... they're basically just avatars that can be thrown into a few newer Nintendo games. I don't know, I just don't like it.

If they do get in the game, though, I expect them to be some kind of "side character" that isn't really part of the actual roster. They're just kind of off to the side on the character selection screen as a little bonus, kind of like how they were on the Mario Kart Wii Character Select Screen. That's how I'd prefer it if they must be in playable form.


@SmashChu:
Yo, check out the character discussion group. It's actually pretty active right now and your input on some topics (Wario and Pokemon, mostly Pokemon right now) would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Conviction]

What I think about Miis?

If they really, really, really, really had to be in. I'd just make them assist trophies.

ACTUALLY, I really like that idea. Miis for assist trophies!

 

[Spydr Enzo]

What I think about Miis?

If they really, really, really, really had to be in. I'd just make them assist trophies.

ACTUALLY, I really like that idea. Miis for assist trophies!

I always thought that too, but I could never figure out what exactly they would do as Assist Trophies. Any ideas?

 

[Big-Cat]

Mii Parade?

 

[Oasis_S]

Mii Parade. A bunch of random Miis of yours pop out and run-- DAMN IT KUMA.

 

[Deleted member]

If they do get in the game, though, I expect them to be some kind of "side character" that isn't really part of the actual roster. They're just kind of off to the side on the character selection screen as a little bonus, kind of like how they were on the Mario Kart Wii Character Select Screen. That's how I'd prefer it if they must be in playable form.

That's my ideal way of handling Mii's as well if they were playable. Perhaps the character selection screen can switch to choosing your Mii's? One section with 40-50ish playable characters and another dedicated to Mii's. Or perhaps one screen and Mii's sticking out to the right of the roster?

Mii Parade?

Eh, I think it would work for a Final Smash better if they were playable.