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New Smash Bros for WiiU

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Zap tackle

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Haha that's cool Spydr! You also have to meet Berserker01 (if you have not done so) once he comes on. He really did take a liking towards your arguements for Toad (he's a big Toad supporter as well). Just check out the topics and essays he made at the Toad Brigade Alliance: http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2597

Your dedication for Toad was remembered in his essays. :D
 

Spydr Enzo

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ehh we'll be on even grounds then. It's 11:40 here, and I'm pretty tired to due to relationship related stress. That's besides the point though.
You're not the only one who's been dealing with relationship related stress... That's pretty much why I haven't been showing up here for the past few months, and it's also a reason I returned... to get my mind off of all that stuff.

Fair enough, I'm sure we'll collide in some future debate. I'll keep an eye out for something that I can disagree with!

Haha that's cool Spydr! You also have to meet Berserker01 once he comes on. He really did take a liking towards your arguements for Toad. Just check out the topics and essays he made at the Toad Brigade Alliance: http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2597

You were dedication for Toad was remembered :D in his essays.
Oh yes, I've shared numeroud PM's with Berseker concerning Toad... I love that guys dedication to supporting Toad. I hope he's keeping it up!
 

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I don't want to say that. He appears way more than Zant did and he's way more of a threat. You fight him in the first dungeon and will see him throughout the game. The thing I was getting at is Sakurai is better at handling characters than the Zelda team.
Oops, my bad for jumping the gun when I don't even have/not going to buy the game then. lol

Anyway it'll be interesting to see how everyone else reacts to him as that'll be a major determining factor for his inclusion.
 

Shorts

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It wasn't a major factor for Midna & Wolf Link~

---, What did Sakurai say about Toad on the Melee blog? I've been meaning to ask you.
 

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---, What did Sakurai say about Toad on the Melee blog? I've been meaning to ask you.
I don't really remember seeing as Johnknight found it, that and I don't think it matters too much anymore, due to all of Toad's recent appearances.

Sakurai also mentioned he couldn't imagine Toad in smash as a playable character (wondering what attacks he would use), and said some other commentary. I think I covered all the important stuff.
Overall you'll have to ask Johnknight where he exactly found it as he hasn't answered my question yet on that. I'm guessing though it's on one of the fifty pages of Sakurai answering fan letters.
 

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Oops, my bad for jumping the gun when I don't even have/not going to buy the game then. lol

Anyway it'll be interesting to see how everyone else reacts to him as that'll be a major determining factor for his inclusion.
Oh no, it's not a big deal. Even still, people could argue against him and I think there are some good arguments against him. Liked to see more discussion when the game is out and everything is in the open.

Oh, and I guess I'd have to read the Toad essay now huh?
 

Shorts

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From what I hear, Sakurai is a very... unchanging man... in terms of opinions. SO, that's why I would put legitimate stock into that quote, once we see a source of course.
 

Conviction

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I really hope we don't end up having the same ideas or I'm going to start faking my views.

Melee Blog overview: Toad wasn't viable to be a character (at the time)
 

Zap tackle

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I don't understand Sakurai's view if that was true. He was able to envision Peach (a character who was on par with Toad for mainstream playable appearances), Zelda (a character who never fought prior in a game to Smash Bros.), and ROB (a NES accessory) as playable characters, so I don't see why this would not be true for Toad as the little guy has fought before.

I'm assuming that he was unable to say that they could not make Toad a playable character at that time. There were so many other characters like Wario who would need to be added in before Toad's arrival. I'm sure this would have changed with time by now.
 

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From what I hear, Sakurai is a very... unchanging man... in terms of opinions. SO, that's why I would put legitimate stock into that quote, once we see a source of course.
Well feel free to nag Johnknight about it, I personally trust him on this, but I do too wish to see a specific source.
 

Shorts

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I don't understand Sakurai's view if that was true. He was able to envision Peach (a character who was on par with Toad for mainstream playable appearances), Zelda (a character who never fought prior in a game to Smash Bros.), and ROB (a NES accessory) as playable characters, so I don't see why this would not be true for Toad.
I don't say I agree with it, Toad's role/popularity is still about the same as it was during Melee, UNLIKE Mii's. So, I can see his opinion not changing.

Melee Blog overview: Toad wasn't viable to be a character (at the time)
Not much has changed. Everything he can do, Mario and Luigi can do. Just like in the Melee days.
Well feel free to nag Johnknight about it, I personally trust him on this, but I do too wish to see a specific source.
Nah. I believe it. Toise has mentioned it I would love a source though.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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@Zap tackle: Peach was playable in Super Mario RPG and many of her moves were from there.

As for Zelda, she fought in the TV Show and the CD-i games. Keep in mind while Nintendo may not see them as important, it doesn't mean they can't be inspiration whatsoever.

Toad... um, in all the games, he hasn't shown anything unique whatsoever really. His moves would have to be made up from scratch.
 

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I really hope we don't end up having the same ideas or I'm going to start faking my views.

Melee Blog overview: Toad wasn't viable to be a character (at the time)
That's what I'm afraid of!

About the Melee blog thing, do you have an exact source? Source or not, anyone who rules out Toad for this reason must also rule out Ridley.

I'm assuming that he was unable to say that they could not make Toad a playable character at that time. There were so many other characters like Wario who would need to be added in before Toad's arrival. I'm sure this would have changed with time by now.
Zap makes a real good point here.
 

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Nah. I believe it. Toise has mentioned it I would love a source though.
That's one of the reasons I believe it as well as I knew it was brought up before, although I couldn't remember by who. lol

When I get the time I'm planning on throughly going through the info thread to do a quick summarization so we all have a better idea of what to expect when E3 rolls around and the storm comes.
 

Shorts

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That's one of the reasons I believe it as well as I knew it was brought up before, although I couldn't remember by who. lol

When I get the time I'm planning on throughly going through the info thread to do a quick summarization so we all have a better idea of what to expect when E3 rolls around and the storm comes.
Don't forget to predict a roster PRE E3~ (I still have mine saved somewhere)
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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@Hyperfalcon
Did you look at the moveset essay from the Toad Brigade Alliance before posting that? http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12843555&postcount=2

Also I was referring to Peach's Super Mario roles. RPG had a little impact on her smash moves, but not much. Zelda never fought in a real Zelda game as well.
Isn't that you making up moves though? Okay, so there's a fair amount of moves he can have. But I didn't really read much that's specific to Toad in general either.

Also, actually, her Frying Pan is only from RPG, as is her Parasol, as well as her Slaps. All of them are RPG moves. Also, the ability to put people asleep also happens to be first used in SMRPG. It's also the most obvious influence for the Mario Finale. Since it's the first game where Mario shoots a super barrage of Fireballs.
 

Zap tackle

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Um, that is not me who made that moveset. :S That is the Smash community who made it alongside Berserker01 (who created the Toad Brigade Alliance). There is a reason why the moveset is left to be accepted by so many. If you look closely, you will see a lot of the elements from Toad's gameplay made into that moveset. Sigh...where is Berserker01 right now? He would explain this a lot more better than me.
 

Shorts

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Said the same thing after I watched Princess Mononoke.


TOADCATS.. You haven't adressed my issue with Toad. I want to hear your opinions on it. Also add in that ZELDA > Toad in terms or importance to her game. She also has Sheik to play off which makes her look a lot more "Fighty". Her inclusion was anything but insane. Plus she has a freaking Goddess moveset. One of the major elements of LoZ.

@Toad moveset I can make the coolest ShyGuy moveset EVER. Doesn't mean Sakurai sees what I do. Sakurai's subjective opinion IS THE ONNNLLLYYY ONNNNEEE THAT MATTERS~ So mold your predictions around him, not your personal opinion of the character.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Not my point. I'm saying, that a lot of the moves were pretty obvious made up and not clear cut from sources.

I did not say it was a bad moveset or it wouldn't work. In fact, it's freakin' awesome. Great job.

I wouldn't say 7 moves means much. Majority was made-up, my only point. Which is clearly true. Like I said, it's a great moveset regardless.
 

Zap tackle

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Anyways, you have to also remember that all the Mario characters in Smash also got moves that were created for them exclusively due to their properties. The reason? Because Mario characters lack in depth. Peach has over half her moveset to be made up, but it still feels natural to her as it contains her elements. What about Luigi and his green missile? Bowser and his B side? There is more. Toad can also fit under here too as long as he gets a moveset surrounding his properties. He would also be able to have actual moves as well (like that moveset stated).

This is why we created a moveset surrounding Toad's speed, throws, and power while keeping Mario elements in it.

@Shortie

This is not one person's idea. Many voted upon the idea, and this helps us to see how well Toad would perform as a character (I'm sure that you helped as well before). If Nintendo was to make Toad as a character in SSB4, they would also have to look through similar elements that we also covered (not our moveset, but Toad's strengths and abilities).

Also I'm sure that Sakurai is not the only one designing the movesets. Why on earth would there be so many developers for Smash, yet only one guy has all the fun of making the movesets? Perhaps Sakurai has trouble on Toad, but many others would not.
 

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Spydr Enzo

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@Shortie:

The point of making movesets for characters is to prove that they actually have something to work with. Yes, you can do that for a lot of characters, but when it is a character that is iconic, popular, and easily recognizable by anyone familar with Super Mario, than it means a lot more.
 

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Anyways, you have to also remember that all the Mario characters in Smash also got moves that were created for them exclusively due to their properties. The reason? Because Mario characters lack in depth. Peach has over half her moveset to be made up, but it still feels natural to her as it contains her elements. What about Luigi and his green missile? Bowser and his B side? There is more. Toad can also fit under here too as long as he gets a moveset surrounding his properties. He would also be able to have actual moves as well (like that moveset stated).

This is why we created a moveset surrounding Toad's speed, throws, and power while keeping Mario elements in it.
I said it was a great moveset.

Also, as Try-Hyphen pointed out. Movesets don't have to be obvious for it to work. Those aren't part of the criteria. I do remember the whole thing of being "Toad just wouldn't work in Smash" though. I forgot where it was cited. Sakurai said the the same thing for Animal Crosser.
 

Conviction

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ahhh I like this guy already.

@Spydr: This is true but in cases like Toon Link they have material to work with has been overlooked. I guess a more extreme exmaple that fits your exact criteria is Ridley, even though he is iconic, popular, and easily recognizable what's to say they won't be overlooked again? I'm just throwing that's a possibly. Even though I support Toad I can see where Short's is coming from.

Hopefully Shorts is wrong.
 

Zap tackle

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@Hyper Falcon

Actually Sakurai never mentioned Toad for the Brawl case. He said specifically that he could not imagine characters like the Animal Crosser (and other AC characters) and Nintendog to be playable as they do not fight in their games.
 

Spydr Enzo

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ahhh I like this guy already.

@Spydr: This is true but in cases like Toon Link they have material to work with has been overlooked. I guess a more extreme exmaple that fits your exact criteria is Ridley, even though he is iconic, popular, and easily recognizable what's to say they won't be overlooked again? I'm just throwing that's a possibly. Even though I support Toad I can see where Short's is coming from.

Hopefully Shorts is wrong.
True, but you could say the same for literally any character. The thing about Toon Link is that, despite his vast potential for a unique moveset, Sakurai still seems to see him as a form of Link (which he is) and the replacement of Young Link in Melee, which was why he was doomed to be a clone. Toad, on the other hand, is more unique in shape than most of the current roster. Also, how many more times can Sakurai overlook characters like Ridley? With fewer viable characters to choose from, he's going to have to force them in there at some point. Don't forget about characters like Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Wario, etc. who were overloked until Brawl. They still made it.

Sakurai could base his moveset and play-style off of his speed seen in Super Mario Bros. 2, as well as his surprising superhuman strength. We don't have many small characters who are speedy but also strong.

Basically, you could name any random Nintendo character and say that they have potential, and then someone else could go on to argue that "Sakurai might not see that potential." Well, he might not. BUT, he might. We don't know. That's why I usually steer clear of that argument.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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@Zap Tap(nickname): I'm waiting for that to be cited, actually. I wouldn't be surprised if he said it, though.

@Spydr: In my opinion, I don't think any character is severely likely besides the Forbidden 7, Mii, and MegaMan at best.
 

Zap tackle

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Don't forget about characters like Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Wario, etc. who were overloked until Brawl. They still made it.
Good point. It was indeed odd to see why these guys were not put in despite the fact that we got characters like Pichu and Roy, etc in it (not to say that I dislike these characters, but they are lower in importance in comparison to those like Wario, Diddy, Dedede, and even Meta Knight).

@Iblisx

That sounds good (especially if Berserker, Oasis, and others gets in too :p).

@Hyper Falcon

Hm, a nickname? Zap Tap interesting :D

Also in regards to Toad, I have no idea about Melee; however, I do remember Sakurai not saying a thing about Toad during Brawl.
 

Spydr Enzo

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Hmmm good, good. I agree.

This will enjoyable. I say we start a real argument tomorrow when we're not tired.
Agreed!

I don't know if I will be on tomorrow though. I'm actually preparing to go out of town for the rest of the week, and I'll be back Saturday morning. THEN, I will really be able to start getting into things.

@Spydr: In my opinion, I don't think any character is severely likely besides the Forbidden 7, Mii, and MegaMan at best.
Ugh... I hate the Miis. I'd rather discuss them another time...

That sounds good (especially if Berserker, Oasis, and others gets in too :p).
I'd like to meet this Oasis guy. I've heard about his speculation skills, I'd just like to see for myself.
 

Zap tackle

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Do any of you guys remember Sakurai's journal about the characters he considered for Brawl?

Here is the list of Nintendo characters he apparently listed and considered from his interviews:

Koopa Troopa (Super Mario Bros. - 1985)
Hammer Bros. (Super Mario Bros. - 1985)
Toad (Super Mario Bros. 2 - 1988)
Petey Piranha (Super Mario Sunshine - 2002)
Geno (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars - 1996)
"Cel-Shaded" Link (The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker - 2002)
Tetra (The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker - 2002)
Link's Uncle (The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past - 1991)
Ganon/Ganondorf (The Legend of Zelda/The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - 1986/1998)
Bow Wow the Chain Chomp (The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX - 1998)
Ridley (Metroid - 1986)
Peppy Hare (Star Fox - 1993)
Slippy Toad (Star Fox - 1993)
Krystal (Star Fox Adventures - 2002)
Wolf O'Donnell (Star Fox 64 - 1997)
Diddy Kong (solo) (Donkey Kong Country - 1994)
Diddy Kong & Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong Country/Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy Kong's Quest - 1994/1995)
King K. Rool (Donkey Kong Country - 1994)
Ninten (Mother - 1989)
Jeff (Mother 2 [EarthBound in the U.S.] - 1994 [1995])
Claus (Mother 3 - 2006)
Lucas (Mother 3 - 2006)
King Dedede (Kirby's Dreamland - 1992)
Lololo & Lalala (Kirby's Dreamland - 1992)
Marx (Kirby Super Star - 1996)
Oguma (Fire Emblem: Ankoku Ryuu to Hikari no Tsurugi - 1990)
Nabarl (Fire Emblem: Ankoku Ryuu to Hikari no Tsurugi - 1990)
Sigurd (Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu - 1996)
Ike (Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance - 2005)
Mia (Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance - 2005)
The Black Knight (Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance - 2005)
Black Shadow (F-Zero X - 1998)
Palutena (Kid Icarus - 1986)
Medusa (Kid Icarus - 1986)
Eggplant Wizard (Kid Icarus - 1986)
Isaac (Golden Sun - 2001)
Felix (Golden Sun: The Lost Age - 2002)
Little Mac (Punch-Out!! Featuring Mr. Dream - 1990)
Dragon Chan (Super Punch-Out!! - 1994)
Banker (Mario Paint - 1992)
Ray 01 (Custom Robo - 2004)
Captain Olimar (Pikmin - 2001)
Tom Nook (Animal Forest - 2001)
Chibi-Robo (Chibi-Robo! - 2005)
Muddy (Mole Mania - 1996)
The Blue Virus (Dr. Mario - 1990)
Lip (Panel de Pon - 1995)
Furil (Nintendo Puzzle Collection: Panel de Pon - 2003)
Takamaru (Nazo no Murasamejou - 1986)
Harry the Robot (Teleroboxer - 1995)
Sukapon (Joy Mech Fight - 1993)
Donbe (Shin Oni ga Shima - 1987)
Ayumi Tachibana (Famicom Tantei Club Part II: Ushiro ni Tatsu Shoujo - 1989)*
Professor Kawashima (Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day - 2006)
Urban Fighters (Urban Champion - 1984)
#166 Golden Sun characters and/or Advance Wars infantrymen
#218 Famicom Tantei Club characters

Sakurai has some interesting choices here.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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@Zap Tap: Yep!

@Spydr: Best choice for the possible customizable characters in SSB4. Note that we're going to have some customization. I think this is the perfect way. It gives you your own personal feel after all.
 

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(especially if Berserker, Oasis, and others gets in too :p).
Eh, I don't like discussing Toad much anymore. I've accepted he's probably the more likely choice over Junior. He has everything else going for him. I just don't think he would be a very interesting fighter, AN OPINION OF WHICH WAS SOLIDIFIED WHEN HEARING SAKURAI APPARENTLY FELT THE SAME WAY, but if he gets added anyway and Sakurai finds a way to make him more interesting, then that is just SWELL.

I think the bigger question is: "Will we get a Mario newcomer at all?"
 

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@Spydr: Best choice for the possible customizable characters in SSB4. Note that we're going to have some customization. I think this is the perfect way. It gives you your own personal feel after all.
Yeah... I guess seeing Miis in SSB4 is inevitable... still, I'd rather that NOT be the case

Eh, I don't like discussing Toad much anymore. I've accepted he's probably the more likely choice over Junior. He has everything else going for him. I just don't think he would be a very interesting fighter, AN OPINION OF WHICH WAS SOLIDIFIED WHEN HEARING SAKURAI APPARENTLY FELT THE SAME WAY, but if he gets added anyway and Sakurai finds a way to make him more interesting, then that is just SWELL.

I think the bigger question is: "Will we get a Mario newcomer at all?"
Ah, so you're the Oasis guy I've been hearing about. I'll be keeping my eye on you, as well as Iblis. ;)

I actually find it quite likely that we will see a Mario newcomer. The question is, will it be Toad or Bowser Jr.?
Or both? :o
 

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@Spydr: Well fortunetly for you Sakurai doesn't like Mii's either. ;)

@Zap Tackle: I'm pretty sure you forgot a few characters.

EDIT:
Of course, I think there was a possibility of taking Smash Bros. in a more casual-gaming direction. For example, we could make the art style simpler or make it possible to use Miis. However, with the various titles that the Wii was to offer, I felt that people were looking for something different. That’s the reason I decided in very early stages of development that the Wii pointer and motion movements would not be a primary feature of the game.
Source
 
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