New Sheik Tech?

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
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Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
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Minneapolis, Minnesota
#41
Sounds fair. However, there's still one huge issue: run->crouch->shine is only a 1 frame loss off a 1 frame input. You can do something slightly different that has almost exactly the same functionality. This is not true of this Sheik tech -- if you are one frame off, you quite simply don't do it or anything similar to it. I still think running shine should be differentiated from this Sheik tech.

To me, differentiating between "perfect running shine" and imperfect running shine is like differentiating between wavedashes that have the minimum difference in angle, or differentiating between firefox/bird angles by only a couple degrees.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,340
#42
@ EddyBearr EddyBearr Yeah I see your point, I've been pondering myself whether proper running shines are worth it.

However I think you're forgetting that as I already mentioned, you can just as well do run -> crouch -> needles, which is equally inferior version (well not exactly equal, since the traction values probably differ, but you get the point) of the tech, and also easier to do. Also if you run off plat with shine, doing running shine gives you a lot more speed than crouch shine does, because the 2 frames are enough to reduce your speed quite a bit.


As a side note, your frame data is a little off. Crouch shine is 2 frames slower than running shine, because if you don't shine immediately (let's call it frame 0), then you'll go into run stop on the frame 0. This means that shine is not possible on frame 1, but instead you must crouch. Then you can shine frame 2, as opposed to frame 0.
 

GX2

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 9, 2015
Messages
20
#43
So.. This is a nearly frame perfect tech? I don't like frame perfect techs, but this looks like an awesome mix-up/approach. And, I assume the 0.80 is "melee meters per frame"?

I'll refer to it as Sheik's Vudu [Dash/Apprach/Boost] so to continue to give my respects to the amazing Vudujin.

EDIT:
Test done with @protato on his stream, found that frame perfect (22 frame initation off max-distance battlefield platform) needles lead to further distance than simple run off + max drift, and that frame 19 needles give comparable distance to max drift. You have to put stick to neutral and input b on the same frame, and there's a modest window in which you can activate before falling off in which you can needle and still shoot them out.

The Input: Stick to Neutral AND Press B during same frame at any point during run. A lenient window for a 1 frame input.
*REMEMBER TO LET GO OF DIRECTION ON FRAME PRIOR SO IT GOES TO NEUTRAL DURING THE NEXT FRAME.


Frame *16: Just a placeholder, Sheik is near the ledge and is in run
Frame 17: Sheik does the input, and it FAILS. Sheik will ledge cancel her own needles and you will lose any charge without releasing any
Frame 18: Earliest possible input. BETTER than run-off needle already as run-off needle leads to Sheik plummeting Stick to Neutral AND Press B during same frame.
Frame 19: Input is possible, better than frame 18 for distance.
Frame 20: Input is possible, about as good as natural drift in terms of distance
Frame 21: Input is possible, better than frame 20 for distance
Frame 22: Latest possible input. Noticeably further in distance than run-off + drift w/o needles.
Frame 23: Sheik falls off platform

*16 is an arbitrary number as you can do it at any point during a run

So you have a 5 frame window before you fall off a ledge to do a 1 frame combination of stick to neutral and pressing b to release needles. Doing so let's you lunge forward with your needles, giving you an approach option.


Benefits:
+Significantly longer needle approach
+All the follow-ups of any needle approach
+Sheik's range off a platform is noticeably larger.
+Needles are amazing anyways, auto-cancels and etc
+Relatively lenient timing window for the input, as any of the 5 possible frames appears to be better than run-off needle alone.
+Can be practiced alone, at home, without anyone
+If you mis-space, you auto-cancel anyways, so you're pretty safe.

Drawbacks:
-Potential to release chain with input failure
-Potential to skid animation with input failure
-Distance varies, meaning it's hard to space with precisely
-Potential to lose all needles if done just before the viable input window
-1 frame co-input
-Dependent on quality of control stick

Evaluation of Drawbacks:
~Chain sucks, but it's only if you screw up.
~Skid animation can be interrupted with a lot of things so not much risk there.
+Needles on the ground are always nice, and you auto-cancel anyways
+Neutral free-fall state so you have fair/nair protection
-1 frame input is tricky
-Control sticks suck


A video of this will likely be made in not too long thanks to Protato having done this on stream.


I'm practicing this on battlefield and it feels both easy and extremely big for Sheik. You can use it to run off platform or stage for deep edgeguards (fair after needle), it's a great approach.. this is great.

Thanks for the post dude its great to have some physical answers
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
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Jun 14, 2013
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Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
#44
@ EddyBearr EddyBearr Yeah I see your point, I've been pondering myself whether proper running shines are worth it.

However I think you're forgetting that as I already mentioned, you can just as well do run -> crouch -> needles, which is equally inferior version (well not exactly equal, since the traction values probably differ, but you get the point) of the tech, and also easier to do. Also if you run off plat with shine, doing running shine gives you a lot more speed than crouch shine does, because the 2 frames are enough to reduce your speed quite a bit.
My testing found that you have 5 frames to do the needle trick, and only frames 3-5 are good enough to warrant the tech. If you put in the extra time to crouch, I think you inherently burn at least 2-3, with that 2 or 3 frames still requiring a frame perfect "stick to neutral and b in the same frame" to not down-B. At that point, the air speed is only a tad greater than the air speed involving simple run-off, which imo makes it not worth it.
 
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Scroll

Smash Ace
Premium
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
533
#50
Flying needle approach. It's just a needle approach with extra range to me. Rarely expected, gets grabs.
I see. The thing that happens in my mind (I havent really tried too hard to implement (yet!) is that the needle comes out as you leave the platform, a moment passes and then you land. For needle grab to work you need to hit them as late as possible.

So that brings up two questions. Can you charge needles in this animation to delay the throw?
Have you tried doing it with needle storm?
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
#52
I see. The thing that happens in my mind (I havent really tried too hard to implement (yet!) is that the needle comes out as you leave the platform, a moment passes and then you land. For needle grab to work you need to hit them as late as possible.

So that brings up two questions. Can you charge needles in this animation to delay the throw?
Have you tried doing it with needle storm?
I do it when using multiple needles. I also use it sometimes to quickly close space while still threatening hitboxes -- basically declaring ownership of wherever I'd auto-cancel (land).
 

Arrestme

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
47
Location
OWN Inc.
NNID
Eulogy
#55
So.. This is a nearly frame perfect tech? I don't like frame perfect techs, but this looks like an awesome mix-up/approach. And, I assume the 0.80 is "melee meters per frame"?

I'll refer to it as Sheik's Vudu [Dash/Apprach/Boost] so to continue to give my respects to the amazing Vudujin.

EDIT:
Test done with @protato on his stream, found that frame perfect (22 frame initation off max-distance battlefield platform) needles lead to further distance than simple run off + max drift, and that frame 19 needles give comparable distance to max drift. You have to put stick to neutral and input b on the same frame, and there's a modest window in which you can activate before falling off in which you can needle and still shoot them out.

The Input: Stick to Neutral AND Press B during same frame at any point during run. A lenient window for a 1 frame input.
*REMEMBER TO LET GO OF DIRECTION ON FRAME PRIOR SO IT GOES TO NEUTRAL DURING THE NEXT FRAME.


Frame *16: Just a placeholder, Sheik is near the ledge and is in run
Frame 17: Sheik does the input, and it FAILS. Sheik will ledge cancel her own needles and you will lose any charge without releasing any
Frame 18: Earliest possible input. BETTER than run-off needle already as run-off needle leads to Sheik plummeting Stick to Neutral AND Press B during same frame.
Frame 19: Input is possible, better than frame 18 for distance.
Frame 20: Input is possible, about as good as natural drift in terms of distance
Frame 21: Input is possible, better than frame 20 for distance
Frame 22: Latest possible input. Noticeably further in distance than run-off + drift w/o needles.
Frame 23: Sheik falls off platform

*16 is an arbitrary number as you can do it at any point during a run

So you have a 5 frame window before you fall off a ledge to do a 1 frame combination of stick to neutral and pressing b to release needles. Doing so let's you lunge forward with your needles, giving you an approach option.


Benefits:
+Significantly longer needle approach
+All the follow-ups of any needle approach
+Sheik's range off a platform is noticeably larger.
+Needles are amazing anyways, auto-cancels and etc
+Relatively lenient timing window for the input, as any of the 5 possible frames appears to be better than run-off needle alone.
+Can be practiced alone, at home, without anyone
+If you mis-space, you auto-cancel anyways, so you're pretty safe.

Drawbacks:
-Potential to release chain with input failure
-Potential to skid animation with input failure
-Distance varies, meaning it's hard to space with precisely
-Potential to lose all needles if done just before the viable input window
-1 frame co-input
-Dependent on quality of control stick

Evaluation of Drawbacks:
~Chain sucks, but it's only if you screw up.
~Skid animation can be interrupted with a lot of things so not much risk there.
+Needles on the ground are always nice, and you auto-cancel anyways
+Neutral free-fall state so you have fair/nair protection
-1 frame input is tricky
-Control sticks suck


A video of this will likely be made in not too long thanks to Protato having done this on stream.


I'm practicing this on battlefield and it feels both easy and extremely big for Sheik. You can use it to run off platform or stage for deep edgeguards (fair after needle), it's a great approach.. this is great.

This.Is... utterly amazing information! I suppose we were right on it's path with D-stick angles thinking it was from dash to tilt. Since leading the D-stick to neutral with your thumb works for me over just releasing it back. Makes timing it with pressing B much easier. 1 frame, damn.

One lesson I take from this is using Skid animations (when starting a dash too close to the edge, & u can't crouch cancel it before falling (aka moonwalking phase.) to buffer a tilt in opposite direction, and spamming B, makes it easier to execute.

Oh btw, I found that the "magical needle" that went down&off the plat even tho I didn't jump, was due to me resetting my position with 20xx quick-load key combo. It doesn't reload the game, just your positions & health. It also ****s up with some stuff, but great for practice. Sadly just a myth now.

Thanks, once again, for the experimental data! Cheers to you & your friend.
 
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