New Sheik Tech: Instant Needle Cancels

[WondrousMoose]

There are a lot of words in this thread, and I haven't read over them all in a week or so, so this may have already been said. If not, here ya go.

For the grounded wavebounce, if you release the left stick right before you input the C-stick + B, you perform a B-reversal in the same direction as your initial momentum. This means that, combined with a standard grounded dash B-reversal (dash>B-reverse; I'm sure there's a name for that), we can pull out needles and slide/face in any direction out of a dash.

 

[pokio55]

There are a lot of words in this thread, and I haven't read over them all in a week or so, so this may have already been said. If not, here ya go.

For the grounded wavebounce, if you release the left stick right before you input the C-stick + B, you perform a B-reversal in the same direction as your initial momentum. This means that, combined with a standard grounded dash B-reversal (dash>B-reverse; I'm sure there's a name for that), we can pull out needles and slide/face in any direction out of a dash.

That sounds great actually. Thanks for the idea!

 

[tronfox64]

There are a lot of words in this thread, and I haven't read over them all in a week or so, so this may have already been said. If not, here ya go.

For the grounded wavebounce, if you release the left stick right before you input the C-stick + B, you perform a B-reversal in the same direction as your initial momentum. This means that, combined with a standard grounded dash B-reversal (dash>B-reverse; I'm sure there's a name for that), we can pull out needles and slide/face in any direction out of a dash.

This makes Needles incredibly flexible, since it's basically the only way to B-Reverse without also bringing your momentum back towards your opponent. It's a good trick in the air too. So many mind games...

 

[WondrousMoose]

I feel that the new C-stick Wavebounce (C-Bounce?) deserves its own thread. There is so much that can be said about it and INC that this thread may get too cluttered to really develop either. I'd like to start the new one, unless @ tronfox64 or someone else would rather.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Please do. I'm extremely confused by the two techs now @ WondrousMoose

 

[tronfox64]

I actually like the term C-Bounce a lot for the second tech. By all means make a second thread, as I can totally see how the two techs are similar enough to be confusing, despite pretty different inputs/applications. I even have a couple more tricks using C-Bounces that I'll comment with once the new thread is up.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Done.

Edit: as an update to my earlier post regarding the weird insta-shield frame in the Needles startup animation, I've noticed that that's the first frame from which she can fire needles, meaning that she can fire them off earlier than she can cancel them. INC seems to fit into that window.

 

[tronfox64]

Just Added this to @ WondrousMoose 's thread (http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-tech-c-bounce.409439/) but I figure we have enough information here for these to be relevant here as well. I'll also compile these into the OP.

This tech (C-Bouncing) is so flexible in the air that I wanted to bring attention to some applications:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------Recovering from the Ledge--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ledge Mind Games into TheifNade Fish:
http://www.gfycat.com/RareLivelyBats

Ledge Mind Games into Fish:
http://www.gfycat.com/ConsiderateMiserableArrowana

---------------------------------------------------------Edge guarding against opponents who recover low--------------------------------------------------------

Stage Hugging Low Needles (Combos into Bouncing Fish ofc):
http://www.gfycat.com/FlawedMindlessHarrierhawk

Stage Hugging Vanishes (with different variations in depth):
http://www.gfycat.com/AdventurousHandmadeBasilisk

Stage Hugging Bouncing Fish (Can also mix it up by bouncing off the stage depending on the map):
http://www.gfycat.com/KlutzyAppropriateAlabamamapturtle

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Platform Dropping---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Platform Mind Games 1:
http://www.gfycat.com/ReflectingMeagerDowitcher

Platform Mind Games 2:
http://www.gfycat.com/DigitalInbornHypacrosaurus

----------------------------------------------------------------------Avoid being Juggled from Below----------------------------------------------------------------------

Aerial Juking:
http://www.gfycat.com/BigheartedCommonChickadee


---------------------------------------------------------------------Bonus: Quickly Go under Stages!---------------------------------------------------------------------

Quickly and easily go under almost any stage! (Works on Battlefield too. Couldn't get under Final Destination though):
http://www.gfycat.com/PassionateIlliterateBirdofparadise

Note: Some of these can also be done with a regular wavebounce in the air, but for some reason Sheik gets more horizontal momentum out of a C-Bounce than a standard wavebounce, and she keeps her (typically better) forward facing direction.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Alright, I'm lost. I can't get this consistently at all. I can C-Bounce like there's no tomorrow, I can Wavebounce/needle fidget into anything on command, but I cannot get this to work. When I test in slow motion, it seems like the only time that I can input the shield is that 1-frame window I mentioned above, in which she goes straight to shield, rather than return to neutral. I'm sure that's not the case, though. Advice? Tips? How on earth are you people doing this?

 

[tronfox64]

@ WondrousMoose What specifically are you having troubles with? Canceling a C-Bounce to enter neutral rather than shield?

 

[WondrousMoose]

@ WondrousMoose What specifically are you having troubles with? Canceling a C-Bounce to enter neutral rather than shield?

I'm fine with C-bouncing; it's the INC I can't pull off.

Edit: Perfect INC, that is. I'm fine buffering an attack for a normal needle cancel, but I'd like to consistently do away with those extra ~7 frames.

 

[tronfox64]

I'm fine with C-bouncing; it's the INC I can't pull off.

Edit: Perfect INC, that is. I'm fine buffering an attack for a normal needle cancel, but I'd like to consistently do away with those extra ~7 frames.

I recommend practicing stand still INCs to get the timing down since it is pretty strict. Start Needles, then quickly press A then Shield. if you do this over and over, you should eventually get the jab to come out at the soonest possible moment frequently enough to instill it into your muscle memory. Then, you carry over this timing into other uses, such as tilts and (probably the hardest) reverses. Once you feel sufficient enough standing still, start to work on pulling it off straight out of a run.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I recommend practicing stand still INCs to get the timing down since it is pretty strict. Start Needles, then quickly press A then Shield. if you do this over and over, you should eventually get the jab to come out at the soonest possible moment frequently enough to instill it into your muscle memory. Then, you carry over this timing into other uses, such as tilts and (probably the hardest) reverses. Once you feel sufficient enough standing still, start to work on pulling it off straight out of a run.

I suppose I'll just be frustrated until we have a stronger grasp on the mechanics behind this. This is what I've come to understand so far:

• When you press B, Sheik moves her arm with her needle(s) over her head. You can't do anything at this time
• On a single frame with her needle(s) straight in the air, you can shield immediately (rather than return to neutral) or throw the needle(s)
• From the next frame until she charges her sixth needle, you can cancel at any time, triggering her cancel animation, roll, or throw her gathered needle(s)
• In order to perform an INC, you must input the shield on that precise frame in step 2 with the buffered attack coming just before (I don't know just how soon before, but it's crazy fast).

This is my best understanding of the tech. Can someone who has tested more extensively please prove me wrong? If it is a single frame, then okay, I'll accept that and practice more. If, however, it isn't, well, that makes it just a little bit less tough, but still doable.

 

[tronfox64]

Edit: It seems the window where needles can be "instant" canceled is this same window you mention @ WondrousMoose . It seems to be right as the needle faces straight up, but before the spark comes out. If you try to INC (into attack or shield) any earlier, and Sheik will cancel into neutral with no action. Cancel any later and Sheik will perform the full needle startup and cancel animations, and then attack on the first possible frame (so roughly 15~ frames?). INC takes advantage of this sweet spot (where the needle is almost completely vertical) which seems to be only 1-2 frames big.

I don't think their will be some easy "trick" to learning this unfortunately. It's probably just going to be one of those tech skills people will need to practice repetitively until they can abuse it in actual combat.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Edit: It seems the window where needles can be "instant" canceled is this same window you mention @ WondrousMoose . It seems to be right as the needle faces straight up, but before the spark comes out. If you try to INC (into attack or shield) any earlier, and Sheik will cancel into neutral with no action. Cancel any later and Sheik will perform the full needle startup and cancel animations, and then attack on the first possible frame (so roughly 15~ frames?). INC takes advantage of this sweet spot (where the needle is almost completely vertical) which seems to be only 1-2 frames big.

I don't think their will be some easy "trick" to learning this unfortunately. It's probably just going to be one of those tech skills people will need to practice repetitively until they can abuse it in actual combat.

K, I'm starting to get the hang of at least practicing it. I've been working to consistently get that instant shield, then add some tilts in with the C-stick. At some point, I'd like to consistently shield 10-20 times in a row. 5 is my record. Heh.

I've enjoyed INC into Needles. When done correctly, it looks like a third arm bursts out of her head with more needles. If I can get it down, I see this becoming a sort of showy - though entirely impractical - sort of multishining, in that it's a cool, frame-perfect tech that l33t MLG kids can spam.

 

[Heldentyp]

First off, I would like to thank you @ tronfox64 , for you contributions to the Ninja clan. I just picked up Sheik three days ago out of a character crisis and I am since learning her fancy techniques.
Half an hour ago I started to practice the instant needle cancels and have been able to pull them off quite some times. (Mainly ftilts, since I felt I needed those the most, however it's not necessarily hard to pull of other tilts from this point.)


So, since a few people are still struggling to do these or don’t know when to input their buttons, I would like to share how I learned instant needle cancels rather fast:

My GC-Controller settings:
- Special Attack
- Shield
- Attack


(From here on I will assume you’re facing to the right side and you’re using my GC-Controller settings.)


1st Instant needle cancel while in neutral.

- Go to training mode, set the camera to zoom and the paste to 0.3 x, accept the settings.
- Now charge your needles by pressing and watch the animation carefully. You should note that little blue sparkle around Sheiks shaking left hand, just after a few frames. This sparkle does the trick:

• Press and hold
• Right before the blue sparkle pops up flip the to either side. Note: afaik this input is not forced to be frame perfect. It’s also possible to make the input right when the sparkle pops up. Just be sure to not do the input just when the animation is starting.
• Finally quickly press to cancel the animation. But be sure you have flipped your before that! Release when the tilt comes out (or directly with if you feel confident about it.)

- If you have done everything right Sheik should cancel her needle charging and instantly throw out your preferred tilt. Note: Actually, if you understand the process I find this to be easier pulled off in normal speed. Do it like however suits you best. I like to think about it like doing the wave Sheik is doing with her left hand. The buttons are almost pressed simultaneously but rather in a flowing move one after another. If you feel confident about it go over to step 2.

2nd Needles while running.

I find this to be trickier than Instant needle cancel while in neutral. What you want to do is just get a feeling for the time frame by releasing your and pressing .

• Press and hold .
• Release the to anytime you like.
• Almost immediately press afterwards to charge your needles.

If you have done everything right, Sheik should slide a short distance out of running while charging her needles. Try to get confident with the timing.

3rd From here on it’s really just putting step 2 and step 1 together. Just try to focus on your inputs. You should get the hang out of it quickly.


Hopefully this helps some of you learning this unique technique, I feel like every Sheik main ought to be able to perform this in fight. Now back to the labs.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Alright, I've got frame data.

Standard needle cancel:
http://gfycat.com/AmbitiousNervousBedbug

Instant Needle Cancel (INC):
http://gfycat.com/NauticalFreshGypsymoth

Failing to perform an INC requires you to wait another 8 frames before the buffered attack comes out. In order to perform the INC, you must input the shield on frame 7, which is the frame on which Sheik holds the needles almost perfectly vertical in the air. This tech works because that is also the frame on which Sheik can release her needle(s), and the buffered attack simply overrides that. We had sort of known this already, so now it's official.

I apologize for the potato-quality footage. That is a gif of me using my iPhone to film my computer monitor, showing what I had already filmed with my iPhone. Anything higher quality would be appreciated.

 

[BigHairyFart]

In order to perform the INC, you must input the shield on frame 7

So this tech is frame perfect? Damn, I was hoping for at least a two-frame window.

 

[Jaxas]

Confirming this is still possible in v1.1.0!

 

[00-Zero]

Alright gents. New INC stuff incoming:

While messing around with INC yesterday, I kept was contemplating how to use this to do smashes directly out of INC
I managed to get one random fsmash out of a full run and needless to say, I was a bit hype because a running fsmash with all of our options is amazing, but I couldn't figure out how I did it. A few more times I pulled it off but didn't realize how I was doing it.

And then it happened..I realized that my finger kept grazing the b button
It finally hit me! I had A+B smash turned ON
Upon realizing this, I found out that you can essentially use the INC buffer window to buffer A+B smash attacks

What this means is that you can do fsmash forward at any point during a run
Now this isn't the only application, this can be paired with anything that you would be able to do with INC
For Example:
Run>>B reverse>>A+B>>INC Fidget
C-Bounce>>Dsmash/FSmash
SH B reverse needles>>D/F Smash
Falling from platforms - runoff>>B-reverse>>D/F Smash
Forward/backward falling needle charge>>UpSmash can catch opponents off guard if they think you're landing with needles
My favorite being running fsmash. I've been able to catch a few people off guard with it as it seems to be instinctual to try to punish a Sheik charging needles in front of you

Long story short, A+B smash turned ON
It enables you to buffer smash attacks out of INC

Edit* I'll have some GIFs either tonight or tomorrow to demonstrate this tech's usefulness

 

[Metallinatus]

Alright gents. New INC stuff incoming:

While messing around with INC yesterday, I kept was contemplating how to use this to do smashes directly out of INC
I managed to get one random fsmash out of a full run and needless to say, I was a bit hype because a running fsmash with all of our options is amazing, but I couldn't figure out how I did it. A few more times I pulled it off but didn't realize how I was doing it.

And then it happened..I realized that my finger kept grazing the b button
It finally hit me! I had A+B smash turned ON
Upon realizing this, I found out that you can essentially use the INC buffer window to buffer A+B smash attacks

What this means is that you can do fsmash forward at any point during a run
Now this isn't the only application, this can be paired with anything that you would be able to do with INC
For Example:
Run>>B reverse>>A+B>>INC Fidget
C-Bounce>>Dsmash/FSmash
SH B reverse needles>>D/F Smash
Falling from platforms - runoff>>B-reverse>>D/F Smash
Forward/backward falling needle charge>>UpSmash can catch opponents off guard if they think you're landing with needles
My favorite being running fsmash. I've been able to catch a few people off guard with it as it seems to be instinctual to try to punish a Sheik charging needles in front of you

Long story short, A+B smash turned ON
It enables you to buffer smash attacks out of INC

Edit* I'll have some GIFs either tonight or tomorrow to demonstrate this tech's usefulness

Can't you also change in the Settings which Smash you want to use with A + B?
Is DACUS back?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Can't you also change in the Settings which Smash you want to use with A + B?
Is DACUS back?

That's not even close to DACUS. You don't even need INC to do running usmash anyway lol

also you can choose which smash to do with A+B by choosing the direction on the control stick, same as control stick + A

 

[Metallinatus]

That's not even close to DACUS. You don't even need INC to do running usmash anyway lol

also you can choose which smash to do with A+B by choosing the direction on the control stick, same as control stick + A

Oh, ok.... I, as most people I believe, never really used A + B to Smash, so I didn't even know how to do different Smashs with it as you saw
But, isn't DACUS a tech to buffer the Up Smash while you're still sliding? Of course, use INC to buffer an Up Smash is not the same thing, but isn't the result, virtually, the same?

 

[00-Zero]

The A+B option with INC best benefits Fsmash since you don't have to input a direction for it

*Edit, but in regard to it being like DACUS, not really because you don't slide with the upsmash, moreso just initiate it out of a run

 

[Deployment]

This new techs took me awhile. The fact that i had to make a new learning curve and brainwashed myself to use special with my right bumper. In conclusion, C-bounce tech will change the meta. Thank you guys for this gold mind I really appreciate it.

 

[tronfox64]

Good find @ 00-Zero . I had previously settled for moving smashes only out of foxtrots as my C-stick was set to tilts. Might have to turn my A+B=Smash back on now.

I'll add this to the OP (with your credit of course).

 

[Roy Renard]

Hello, I'm just recently trying to learn Sheik. I've always mained defensive-style characters, and this would be my first try at using a pressure-heavy character with tons of options at its disposal and barely no lag, lol.
So, anyways, Iv'e been in Training Mode all day long since I realized, after watching a video by ZeRo where he says that the better the Sheik player, the more he'll get from a single hit confirm, that it's super important to know how to do those f-air strings that carry opponents all over the stage in order to get the most out of Sheik's combo game (along with an efficient use of Bouncing Fish); however, I'm not sure what's the most efficient way to input these f-air strings. I usually use the C-stick to space aerials, and I found that's the best way to input a "combo starter" f-air, but the following f-airs are much faster to do by sliding my thumb from the X (jump) button to the A button; however, I'm not sure if I must fast fall each f-air in order for them to combo better, or if it's better to just buffer each f-air to come after their normal landing. How do you guys input your f-air strings/combos?
Also, I have watched several videos of ZeRo using Sheik, and I found that sometimes he's charging needles and somehow he just dashes towards the other player and grabs. How do you cancel needles into a regular dash? As far as I know, the only way to do that is if the needles got fully charged; otherwise, if you input a direction while charging needles you get a roll. What are all the ways to cancel a needle charge?
Thank you in advance!

 

[ArikadoSD]

Hello, I'm just recently trying to learn Sheik. I've always mained defensive-style characters, and this would be my first try at using a pressure-heavy character with tons of options at its disposal and barely no lag, lol.
So, anyways, Iv'e been in Training Mode all day long since I realized, after watching a video by ZeRo where he says that the better the Sheik player, the more he'll get from a single hit confirm, that it's super important to know how to do those f-air strings that carry opponents all over the stage in order to get the most out of Sheik's combo game (along with an efficient use of Bouncing Fish); however, I'm not sure what's the most efficient way to input these f-air strings. I usually use the C-stick to space aerials, and I found that's the best way to input a "combo starter" f-air, but the following f-airs are much faster to do by sliding my thumb from the X (jump) button to the A button; however, I'm not sure if I must fast fall each f-air in order for them to combo better, or if it's better to just buffer each f-air to come after their normal landing. How do you guys input your f-air strings/combos?
Also, I have watched several videos of ZeRo using Sheik, and I found that sometimes he's charging needles and somehow he just dashes towards the other player and grabs. How do you cancel needles into a regular dash? As far as I know, the only way to do that is if the needles got fully charged; otherwise, if you input a direction while charging needles you get a roll. What are all the ways to cancel a needle charge?
Thank you in advance!

Hey, this is the wrong thread to be asking these kinds of questions so I'll answer your question in this thread.

 

[Simikins]

Just thought of an application for INC on battlefield. F-Throw onto the platform, dash into INC Utilt. If they miss tech, jab lock. Woo. Just a more reliable way to catch the window.

 

[Roy Renard]

Hey, this is the wrong thread to be asking these kinds of questions so I'll answer your question in this thread.

Oh, sorry, for some reason, I thought I was posting in the Q&A thread. I just had many tabs open at the same time :/
Anyways, thank you for your answer!

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Learning to space this around your opponent effectively is the real challenge. I feel like if you get too close you can get dash grabbed. The biggest thing is knowing how your opponent reacts to your dash in's, adapting to that, and mixing it up.

EDIT: How fast can you cancel the forward wavebounce to a jump or attack?

 

[Illuminose]

Hello, I'm just recently trying to learn Sheik. I've always mained defensive-style characters, and this would be my first try at using a pressure-heavy character with tons of options at its disposal and barely no lag, lol.
So, anyways, Iv'e been in Training Mode all day long since I realized, after watching a video by ZeRo where he says that the better the Sheik player, the more he'll get from a single hit confirm, that it's super important to know how to do those f-air strings that carry opponents all over the stage in order to get the most out of Sheik's combo game (along with an efficient use of Bouncing Fish); however, I'm not sure what's the most efficient way to input these f-air strings. I usually use the C-stick to space aerials, and I found that's the best way to input a "combo starter" f-air, but the following f-airs are much faster to do by sliding my thumb from the X (jump) button to the A button; however, I'm not sure if I must fast fall each f-air in order for them to combo better, or if it's better to just buffer each f-air to come after their normal landing. How do you guys input your f-air strings/combos?

I only use the C Stick to space. I use Y + A for all combos (fast fall every fair).

Also, I have watched several videos of ZeRo using Sheik, and I found that sometimes he's charging needles and somehow he just dashes towards the other player and grabs. How do you cancel needles into a regular dash? As far as I know, the only way to do that is if the needles got fully charged; otherwise, if you input a direction while charging needles you get a roll. What are all the ways to cancel a needle charge?
Thank you in advance!

Tap shield to cancel the needle charge without putting up shield (holding will put up shield). Then input the dash immediately. That's how you cancel the needle charge into a dash as fast as possible. If you press a direction you will roll, shield + down will spot dodge immediately, and shield + A will grab. You can also buffer any action (jab, tilt, smash) by inputting it then QUICKLY tapping shield, which performs it immediately (this is called INC). In the air you can only air dodge or fidget, fidgeting being cancelling that air dodge into any special by inputting it immediately after the air dodge.

 

[Darklink401]

This looks really neat xD I'll have to practice it...and probably fail the first half hour :>

I love Sheik's fsmash so I'd love to do it out of a run.

 

[00-Zero]

Some additional info for the A+B smash out of INC when your unused trigger is mapped as special: (this is likely already the case for those implementing c-bounce)

It seems that if you are using the shoulder button as the initial needle charge for for INC, simply buffering an A input (after the special, before the shield cancel) will still register as an A+B smash attack, seemingly due to the shoulder not having fully retracted.

The main benefit is that it makes f-smashing out of INC more consistent and requires one less special input to do so.

I don't really understand how it would be registered as 2 separate special inputs though as you are using the single (shoulder) special input to initiate the needles as well the B input for the A+B smash.

Regardless, it's made f-smashing out of a run with INC a bit easier due to the one less special to input (as opposed to using B to initiate the needle charge, and then buffering A+(another)B before the shield to cancel into f-smash; you can also use B to initiate the charge and then use A+(shoulder)B to do this but at that point you're still entering 2 special inputs)

TL;DR Inputs: Run>Needle Charge(trigger special)>Immediate A>Tap Shield
In my case >>
If done right, you should be doing an INCancelled f-smash out of a run

I suppose you could always charge needles, and then input Forward+A>Shield to accomplish the same thing but in my experience, A+B is far easier because you don't have to time the directional input for the smash (Risking rolling if you don't time it right) unless you're d/u-smashing out of INC. In that case, A+B is still easier because while charging needles, you can hold up or down and then press A+B>Shield at any point to initiate U/D-Smash.

Nothing big, just a way do something easier lol

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

In order to perform the INC, you must input the shield on frame 7

I was only just looking into this now for the purposes of updating the smash dictionary and, for the record I guess, you must input shield on frame 8 of the neutral special animation. If you do it on frame 7 you won't get a cancel at all, and if you do it on frame 9 you'll get the slower version. I can see why you thought it was frame 7 though just judging by the visuals because the jab is activated by shield i.e. its first frame is on the same frame as the shield input, not the frame after.
The prior attack input can of course be done on any frame before 8 if you're doing the instant version, but this is complicated by the fact that the attack input must be done much closer to the shield input if you do the slower version, i.e. the earliest you can do a jab input if you end up cancelling the needle charge on frame 9, is frame 6; otherwise, of course, you can do the (other) jab input after the shield input during the 7 frame delay seen in the slower version so long as you let go of shield first.
Sorry to be a pain.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I was only just looking into this now for the purposes of updating the smash dictionary and, for the record I guess, you must input shield on frame 8 of the neutral special animation. If you do it on frame 7 you won't get a cancel at all, and if you do it on frame 9 you'll get the slower version. I can see why you thought it was frame 7 though just judging by the visuals because the jab is activated by shield i.e. its first frame is on the same frame as the shield input, not the frame after.
The prior attack input can of course be done on any frame before 8 if you're doing the instant version, but this is complicated by the fact that the attack input must be done much closer to the shield input if you do the slower version, i.e. the earliest you can do a jab input if you end up cancelling the needle charge on frame 9, is frame 6; otherwise, of course, you can do the (other) jab input after the shield input during the 7 frame delay seen in the slower version so long as you let go of shield first.
Sorry to be a pain.

Oh, not a pain at all! I was just going by what I saw in slo-mo, but if it's really frame 8, it doesn't make much difference when executing the tech, but it's good to know.

 

[Simikins]

Hey Ninja's, 3DS user here :]
I can confirm that C-bouncing does NOT work on the New 3DS. If you do the inputs perfectly it does a wavebounce grenade.
INC however, DOES work. Not for tilts as the C-stick can't be changed from smash, but it works for all smashes (when using the C-stick) and of course jab.

And an application for INC, if you dash into a Dtilt, that's the closest thing there is to dashing into a crouch, and for matchups where we can crouch under a lot of stuff (like ZSS grab) this could b useful. The only thing with this is that Sheik's hurtbox is larger when performing Dtilt, than when crouching, so we'll be able to crouch under less stuff.

Everyone needs to learn these techs, omg.

 

[tronfox64]

For what its worth, Cloud can Instant Limit Cancel in the same way Sheik (and now rob too!) does hers... only his doesn't seem to have the 1 frame window and is much more lenient.

 

[z34_danny]

I think they patched this in the recent 1.1.4 update. I didn't use this tech too much but while in the lab practicing it, it seems a bit slower than I remembered. Can someone confirm this?

 

[WondrousMoose]

I think they patched this in the recent 1.1.4 update. I didn't use this tech too much but while in the lab practicing it, it seems a bit slower than I remembered. Can someone confirm this?

It still works. It's a frame-perfect tech, though, so you have to get the timing down.