New Sheik Tech: Instant Needle Cancels

ShinRamen

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KoRShin
#41
That sounds great too. I was thinking 'wavedash' back to get the tipper d tilt to up air kill set up. But yeah, combining these techs seems like it could be the future
 

tronfox64

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#42
@TheReflexWonder
Thats the hidden tech I couldn't quite figure out at the bottom of my original post!! I knew I wasn't just imagining this other application, but I could only replicate it once in the rarest of blue moons and had no Idea how. Thank you so much for posting this. This is another truly great tool for sheik.

I'm going to hit the lab and add this to my gameplay tonight.

Edit:

So here are just a few uses for Sheiks newly discovered wavedash. Not to mention the raw spacing advantage it gives her even when playing the game of pokes. Keep in mind the inputs are a tad tricky still so I may not be executing everything as well as people could be down the road. Also, these are used against CPU's and For Glory players since I'm not that great at it yet, so take everything with a grain of salt.

Making a Read:
http://gfycat.com/SparseOilyAmoeba

Wavedash into Shield & Punish:
http://gfycat.com/SilentDeadlyKestrel

Avoiding & Punish (You could decide to not bring out her shield for faster punishes too):
http://gfycat.com/TiredFamousBass

Reverse Momentum Forward facing Needle Edgeguard!:
http://gfycat.com/GrimTotalJavalina

Edit 2: Since reddit is here, a better term might be wavebounce cancel. I just mentioned wavedash since it had some similar uses.
 
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YGK

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#43
One application I really like, at least in theory, is a B-reverse needle cancel into grab to punish an opponent trying to roll past you. The spacing will depend a lot on how far the opponent's character rolls, but if you can learn to judge the distances correctly for most of the top tiers, it could be quite powerful.

I'd like to start testing the potential of jump canceled up smash with "needle momentum", jump canceled moves usually have lower friction on the stage, so it could be interesting to see if Sheik bounces noticeably farther. If so, it would be a fun way to hit someone that jumps past you to a low platform; you just glide backwards and get a sweet spot up smash.
 

tronfox64

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#44
@ Y YGK
Catching a rolling opponent works incredibly well with it. Here are a few more gifs with examples I recorded. Also wavebounce cancels can be used not only for needles but for needle fidgets and wavebounce cancels while landing.

More Examples of these wavebounce cancels:

Punishing Rolls:
http://gfycat.com/PastelShockedAkitainu
http://gfycat.com/IllinformedPartialGnatcatcher
http://gfycat.com/DopeyAcrobaticGreatdane

Punishing Dash Attacks:
http://gfycat.com/RecentFantasticCopperbutterfly (with Needles themselves, aka no cancel)
http://gfycat.com/EsteemedSlightAfricanelephant

Covering the Ledge while recovering high:
http://gfycat.com/QueasyAgreeableDouglasfirbarkbeetle

Mindgames?:
http://gfycat.com/DampSpeedyAuklet
 
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neoshinryu

Smash Rookie
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Aug 9, 2007
Messages
3
#45
I keep getting grounded wave bounced side B are you guys using a different controller layout or im just messing up the timing lol.
 

YGK

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#47
I keep getting grounded wave bounced side B are you guys using a different controller layout or im just messing up the timing lol.
The timing for the neutral B is quite tricky, you need to let the joystick return to neutral state before tapping B, but if you don't hit b quickly enough you won't get the sliding effect.

Try just practicing Run -> neutral B, and then canceling it with shield (don't worry about canceling it instantly yet), until you can reliably run back and forth while doing it.
Make sure to run for a little bit before trying to use neutral B, you can't use neutral B until after you are in a full run, (running has a startup phase, I call it "dashing" because you can use a dash attack, but can't use all the same moves you can use while running).
Learning this will be hard, but with patience and practice you can reduce it all to muscle memory.
 

tronfox64

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#48
I keep getting grounded wave bounced side B are you guys using a different controller layout or im just messing up the timing lol.
I'm holding Forward on the joystiq while running, and then at the same exact time, press Backwards C-Stick + special (My R Button) for the initial wavebounce, but then cancel with a light shield press into whatever you want. You may even be able to buffer a C-Stick/Jab before you shield cancel but thats incredibly difficult as you essentially have to press c-stick twice within a few frames.
 

YGK

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#50
I'm holding Forward on the joystiq while running, and then at the same exact time, press Backwards C-Stick + special (My R Button) for the initial wavebounce, but then cancel with a light shield press into whatever you want. You may even be able to buffer a C-Stick/Jab before you shield cancel but thats incredibly difficult as you essentially have to press c-stick twice within a few frames.

I'd add that a jab, down tilt, up tilt, or up/down smash can be buffered pretty easily. Definitely harder than a simple wavebounce back with no input, but once you get used to hitting A one or two frames before shield canceling, it's quite easy to do consistently.
 
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Conet

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Feb 23, 2014
Messages
60
#51
Hello everyone,
I've been practicing wave bounce back neutral special for about an hour and a half now. The problem is I cannot seem to press C-stick back (mapped to tilts) and L-trigger (mapped to special) on the same frame consistently. I can preform the whole input (including R-trigger light press to cancel needles) about 3-4 out of ten times. I'm wondering if anyone that has had success with this tech could give me advice on consistency. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

YGK

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#52
Hello everyone,
I've been practicing wave bounce back neutral special for about an hour and a half now. The problem is I cannot seem to press C-stick back (mapped to tilts) and L-trigger (mapped to special) on the same frame consistently. I can preform the whole input (including R-trigger light press to cancel needles) about 3-4 out of ten times. I'm wondering if anyone that has had success with this tech could give me advice on consistency. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Personally, when practicing any tech skill like this, I'm much more consistent the day after practicing it. In one day's training I might get up to 30-40% success rate, but 10 minutes into training the next day I'll be getting it 50-70% of the time. I think it's a combination of my brain consolidating stuff while I sleep, and my fingers being "fresh". I observed the same pattern when I was learning to drive, or doing math homework in college, etc. It's just part of how I learn, and I expect at least some other people are the same way.

Aside from that, I suggest trying to break the whole sequence down into it's components, and practice each individually as well as in combination. If you are having trouble with the running wavebounce, try practicing a standing B-reverse with L-trigger and C-stick until you can do that reliably, then do the same for the other elements. Just try to concentrate on one or two steps at a time, don't worry about getting the shield cancel timing right, or buffering inputs, until you can reliably get to the point where those inputs matter.

Also, I'm not sure if we actually need to hit special and C-stick on the same frame. I've practiced B reversing and aerial wavebounces a lot with other characters (wavebounce neutral B with pikachu is a good neutral game tool), and in my experience you can change the orientation of a special with a directional input immediately before, and/or immediately after inputting the move. For example, I do an aerial wavebounce with just the left joystick and B by inputting [<=, B, =>] with 1-2 frames between each input (not sure exactly how many frames, but I know that no two inputs are the same frame, and it feels more forgiving than one frame). I'll do some testing to be sure, but I would expect the inputs for a grounded B reverse to be similar, just using the C stick to make the first B reverse. It may be the case that they only need to be on the same frame if you hold the left joystick forward the whole time, releasing it and then inputting the second B reverse with it may be slightly more forgiving. (Assuming it works as I think it does, I still need to do the testing. I'll report back once I have.)

EDIT: WRONG. I AM WRONG. Looks like C stick b reversing works differently than I had assumed. I'll have more detailed analysis when I'm not typing on a cell phone.
 
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YGK

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#54
O.K. then, I just spent 2 hours practicing this with a GC controller, and think I have a good handle on it.

You do in fact need to make the C stick and special input on the same frame, but there's a little more to it than that. It seems that any C stick input on the same frame as a special input will result in a neutral special, regardless of which direction either joystick is held. (I may be slightly over-stating this, I didn't do exhaustive testing of every directional combination). The resulting neutral special will change orientation and momentum (or not), depending on the directions you hold the joysticks.

You can think of special moves as having 3 "reverse windows":
  1. Before inputting the move. (Only seems to apply while in the air)
  2. On the same frame as the input. (Can only do this with a C stick, the left stick input determines what special move is used)
  3. Immediately after inputting the move. (Works whether you are in the air or not, only works with left stick)
So, a grounded wavebounce makes use of windows 2 and 3. While holding the left stick forward, you input C-stick backwards and special at the same exact time, a reversed neutral B starts up, reversing all of your momentum, then window 3 begins and the game sees your input with the left stick and switches your orientation back to what it was. The second reverse does not seem to change the direction of your momentum, only your orientation, I don't have a firm understanding of the rules around this, but at least in this case it seems that your momentum follows the direction of your first reverse.

You can also execute a "non reversed wavebounce" (we may need a new term for this), by simply moving the C stick the same direction as your left stick. Mechanically, this works the same as the grounded wavebounce, but you never change direction. While this is functionally the same as just releasing the left stick and instantly inputting a special, I actually think it may be easier to do reliably, once you've mastered the timing. Buffering a tilt or jab with the C stick this way could be tricky, but you can easily buffer an F tilt by simply keeping your left thumb where it is and tapping A before shield canceling.

One interesting application of the C stick mechanic is the "standing wavebounce". It's essentially useless in an real match (maybe you could use it to bait an approach, if your opponent is easily tricked). But it can be a useful training tool. Using the same mechanics as the grounded wavebounce, but without any momentum, you can B reverse a neutral special up to two times while standing still. The inputs are the same as you would use for a running wavebounce, but you don't have to run around the stage doing it, which simplifies the training exercise and makes it easier to focus on getting the C-stick and special input on the same frame.

Before today I hadn't spent too much time practicing with the GC controller, but have spent 5-10 hours practicing on the 3ds. I realized how useful the "standing wavebounce" could be as a training tool about 45 minutes into today's practice. I'm now much better at every version of this technique on the GC controller than on the 3ds. Here's how I practiced:

NOTE: I bind tilts to C stick and special to L. If you have C stick set to smashes, replace F tilt with F smash in the descriptions below.

I started by simply training the C-stick reverse neutral B. The only inputs are C-stick and special (left trigger in my case), C stick input should be the opposite direction of where you are facing, then shield to cancel. (again, I didn't try to cancel as quickly as possible, I would just wait and see if I successfully reversed it or not, then cancel). If you input special too early, you will do a non-reversed neutral B, if you hit the C stick too early, you will do a turn around F tilt. And of course, if you do it right, you will do a turnaround neutral B (pay attention to when you accidentally do a tilt. If you aren't paying attention a early tilt followed by a early special will look like a perfect input. I set the training mode camera to zoom to make my mistakes and successes as visually obvious as possible).

After I had spent ~30 minutes doing C-stick B reverses (I could do 3-5 in a row before messing up, but I'd usually mess up a few times in a row too), I practiced running wavebounces for a bit. After 5-10 minutes of moderate success I decided to work on the standing wavebounce, since each attempt, successful or otherwise, tool less time than the running version. The inputs are the same as a running wavebounce, left stick forward, C-stick back and special at the same time. If you do it right, you should see one frame of a reversed neutral B before turning back to your original orientation (you'll see a Sheik-torso sized flash of color, it's pretty obvious once you've seen it).

The timing for the left stick is pretty forgiving, but it does effect what the results of a mistake look like. If you are inputting the left stick before anything else (this is always the case with a running wavebounce, you should probably practice the standing one in a similar way), then hitting special before the C stick will result in a side B, and hitting C stick before special will result in a instant dash attack. If your left stick input is at the same time as your special input, but the C stick input is late, you will do a side B, If the C stick is early and special is late, you will see an F tilt. Technically you can make the left stick input a few frames after the special input (during reverse window 3), but the point of this is to make the running version easier, so I wouldn't practice this.

After I was pretty consistent at that, I went back to the running version and after a few minutes I was more consistent than ever before. I'm sure tomorrow I'll be even better, but I still plan on using the standing version as a regular training exercise to make it more consistent.

This isn't necessarily the best possible way to practice for everyone. It worked great for me, so I thought it would be worth sharing.

Wow, that post ended up a lot longer than I expected.
 

Conet

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
60
#56
O.K. then, I just spent 2 hours practicing this with a GC controller, and think I have a good handle on it.

You do in fact need to make the C stick and special input on the same frame, but there's a little more to it than that. It seems that any C stick input on the same frame as a special input will result in a neutral special, regardless of which direction either joystick is held. (I may be slightly over-stating this, I didn't do exhaustive testing of every directional combination). The resulting neutral special will change orientation and momentum (or not), depending on the directions you hold the joysticks.

You can think of special moves as having 3 "reverse windows":
  1. Before inputting the move. (Only seems to apply while in the air)
  2. On the same frame as the input. (Can only do this with a C stick, the left stick input determines what special move is used)
  3. Immediately after inputting the move. (Works whether you are in the air or not, only works with left stick)
So, a grounded wavebounce makes use of windows 2 and 3. While holding the left stick forward, you input C-stick backwards and special at the same exact time, a reversed neutral B starts up, reversing all of your momentum, then window 3 begins and the game sees your input with the left stick and switches your orientation back to what it was. The second reverse does not seem to change the direction of your momentum, only your orientation, I don't have a firm understanding of the rules around this, but at least in this case it seems that your momentum follows the direction of your first reverse.

You can also execute a "non reversed wavebounce" (we may need a new term for this), by simply moving the C stick the same direction as your left stick. Mechanically, this works the same as the grounded wavebounce, but you never change direction. While this is functionally the same as just releasing the left stick and instantly inputting a special, I actually think it may be easier to do reliably, once you've mastered the timing. Buffering a tilt or jab with the C stick this way could be tricky, but you can easily buffer an F tilt by simply keeping your left thumb where it is and tapping A before shield canceling.

One interesting application of the C stick mechanic is the "standing wavebounce". It's essentially useless in an real match (maybe you could use it to bait an approach, if your opponent is easily tricked). But it can be a useful training tool. Using the same mechanics as the grounded wavebounce, but without any momentum, you can B reverse a neutral special up to two times while standing still. The inputs are the same as you would use for a running wavebounce, but you don't have to run around the stage doing it, which simplifies the training exercise and makes it easier to focus on getting the C-stick and special input on the same frame.

Before today I hadn't spent too much time practicing with the GC controller, but have spent 5-10 hours practicing on the 3ds. I realized how useful the "standing wavebounce" could be as a training tool about 45 minutes into today's practice. I'm now much better at every version of this technique on the GC controller than on the 3ds. Here's how I practiced:

NOTE: I bind tilts to C stick and special to L. If you have C stick set to smashes, replace F tilt with F smash in the descriptions below.

I started by simply training the C-stick reverse neutral B. The only inputs are C-stick and special (left trigger in my case), C stick input should be the opposite direction of where you are facing, then shield to cancel. (again, I didn't try to cancel as quickly as possible, I would just wait and see if I successfully reversed it or not, then cancel). If you input special too early, you will do a non-reversed neutral B, if you hit the C stick too early, you will do a turn around F tilt. And of course, if you do it right, you will do a turnaround neutral B (pay attention to when you accidentally do a tilt. If you aren't paying attention a early tilt followed by a early special will look like a perfect input. I set the training mode camera to zoom to make my mistakes and successes as visually obvious as possible).

After I had spent ~30 minutes doing C-stick B reverses (I could do 3-5 in a row before messing up, but I'd usually mess up a few times in a row too), I practiced running wavebounces for a bit. After 5-10 minutes of moderate success I decided to work on the standing wavebounce, since each attempt, successful or otherwise, tool less time than the running version. The inputs are the same as a running wavebounce, left stick forward, C-stick back and special at the same time. If you do it right, you should see one frame of a reversed neutral B before turning back to your original orientation (you'll see a Sheik-torso sized flash of color, it's pretty obvious once you've seen it).

The timing for the left stick is pretty forgiving, but it does effect what the results of a mistake look like. If you are inputting the left stick before anything else (this is always the case with a running wavebounce, you should probably practice the standing one in a similar way), then hitting special before the C stick will result in a side B, and hitting C stick before special will result in a instant dash attack. If your left stick input is at the same time as your special input, but the C stick input is late, you will do a side B, If the C stick is early and special is late, you will see an F tilt. Technically you can make the left stick input a few frames after the special input (during reverse window 3), but the point of this is to make the running version easier, so I wouldn't practice this.

After I was pretty consistent at that, I went back to the running version and after a few minutes I was more consistent than ever before. I'm sure tomorrow I'll be even better, but I still plan on using the standing version as a regular training exercise to make it more consistent.

This isn't necessarily the best possible way to practice for everyone. It worked great for me, so I thought it would be worth sharing.

Wow, that post ended up a lot longer than I expected.
Before I read your responses, I went and tried the wave bounce tech again, and to my surprise, found myself doing it much more consistently. I guess you were right when you said that it was easier the next day.

Anyway, I figured most of that stuff on my own while practicing, but your explanation will help people trying to learn this tech for the first time. I can do it pretty consistently now, but I'm going for perfection. With that being said, I'm going to hit the lab tomorrow and see what I can do with buffering tilts and different approach options and report back.
 
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TakeYourHeart

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Jun 20, 2015
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solemnpancake
#57
My god, this is awesome and terrifying at the same time.

It's early in the morning and I've finally settled down again to sleep, but as a Little Mac main I may have nightmares!

@ tronfox64 tronfox64 Props for this frankly brilliant find. This may warp the entire meta (until Sakurai and his crew patch it out, because this likely makes Sheik Godtier). :p
 

YGK

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#58
I doubt this will get patched in any significant way. It doesn't enable any broken combos or make Sheik any more difficult to hit, it just opens up more movement options, mindgame tools, and approaches. Utilizing this is very technically demanding, and it's advantages are only as good as the player makes them, unlike other AT's which give some characters unbelievable amounts of free damage off a single setup, like fox's double jab infinite, or Lucas' 0-Death chaingrab. If this does get patched, it probably won't be until there are more dominant players using Sheik; despite being generally regarded as one of, if not the single best character in the game, there aren't a lot of top players who main Sheik, and Nintendo won't spend their developers time tweaking something unless it gets a lot of public exposure.
 

TakeYourHeart

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solemnpancake
#59
I doubt this will get patched in any significant way. It doesn't enable any broken combos or make Sheik any more difficult to hit, it just opens up more movement options, mindgame tools, and approaches. Utilizing this is very technically demanding, and it's advantages are only as good as the player makes them, unlike other AT's which give some characters unbelievable amounts of free damage off a single setup, like fox's double jab infinite, or Lucas' 0-Death chaingrab. If this does get patched, it probably won't be until there are more dominant players using Sheik; despite being generally regarded as one of, if not the single best character in the game, there aren't a lot of top players who main Sheik, and Nintendo won't spend their developers time tweaking something unless it gets a lot of public exposure.
I do see your point, but even a mini-wavedash can count for a lot. It has a quick way to attack out of it and if mastered it can give Sheik one of the best and quickest punishes in the whole game for otherwise safe moves. There will be times where rolling will be just better as an evasive option, but this gives Sheik some absolutely screwy close range spacing and options.

Time will ultimately tell, but I'll place a bet it will eventually get patched out as it's dependent on a few frames and may prove very exploitable (god help us all if you can do something less marginal and more insane like a bouncing fish out of it).
 

tronfox64

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#60
(god help us all if you can do something less marginal and more insane like a bouncing fish out of it).
Actually you can do exactly that. You can "WaveFish" in the air, while landing, on the ground, etc. In fact, It works exceptionally well with bouncing fish especially. Here are some examples.

Landing WaveFish
http://gfycat.com/MediumSmallIbadanmalimbe

Grounded WaveFish:
http://gfycat.com/SkeletalSpotlessBelugawhale

Aerial WaveFish:
(Uses the Needle Fidgit tech to cancel the wavebounce into specials, most notably Bouncing Fish and Vanish)
http://gfycat.com/LikelyJampackedIchneumonfly

P.S. I hope they don't patch it. It really feels skillful to pull off and, while I love this game to death, it's good to have some techskill back.

Edit: I'm pretty confident this stuff won't be patched out simply because at the core, they are really just fancy B-Reverses. As long as B-reversing exists, these should carry on working.
 
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TakeYourHeart

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solemnpancake
#61
Actually you can do exactly that. You can "WaveFish" in the air, while landing, on the ground, etc. In fact, It works exceptionally well with bouncing fish especially. Here are some examples.

Landing WaveFish
http://gfycat.com/MediumSmallIbadanmalimbe

Grounded WaveFish:
http://gfycat.com/SkeletalSpotlessBelugawhale

Aerial WaveFish:
(Uses the Needle Fidgit tech to cancel the wavebounce into specials, most notably Bouncing Fish and Vanish)
http://gfycat.com/LikelyJampackedIchneumonfly

P.S. I hope they don't patch it. It really feels skillful to pull off and, while I love this game to death, it's good to have some techskill back.
Good heavens, that first GIF defies physics (and has one of the sickest dodges of a jab I've ever seen).

I agree that to a certain extent of techskill is nice and that this is tame compared to something like Rush Canceling (even if that had counter tech), but I think that under the overall game design direction of this game, being that cancelling is something usually meant to be done sparingly to get the player out of a bad position if a mistake was made (with said cancel often having it's own pre-made frames or flowing neatly enough into already existing ones), it probably won't stick.

Looking back, I may have overvalued how useful this is to Sheik and I really wouldn't mind if this stuck around, but there is something to be said about Sakurai keeping the game design consistent and that Smash is a game where if you make a move, you stick to it. Even if you have to occasionally stop something awesome. =P =/

But do have fun with this while you have the chance! There is also something to be said for those little moments of forbidden yet ambiguously temporary thrills. :4sheik:

Edit: Just remembered that the Wii U may be hackable. You might just be able to throw this into whatever gonzo Smash 4 mods you guys could make years down the road.
 
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_Tree

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DekuBaba
#62
Actually you can do exactly that. You can "WaveFish" in the air, while landing, on the ground, etc. In fact, It works exceptionally well with bouncing fish especially. Here are some examples.

Landing WaveFish
http://gfycat.com/MediumSmallIbadanmalimbe

Grounded WaveFish:
http://gfycat.com/SkeletalSpotlessBelugawhale

Aerial WaveFish:
(Uses the Needle Fidgit tech to cancel the wavebounce into specials, most notably Bouncing Fish and Vanish)
http://gfycat.com/LikelyJampackedIchneumonfly
Tronfox. Stop. My fingers can't handle all this delicious tech.
 

YGK

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Jan 23, 2015
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Minneapolis, MN
#63
Wow, I actually didn't realize you could cancel into other moves while in the air. During my testing I only ever tried to cancel into aerials, so I assumed the airdodge was unavoidable. It's pretty rare for there to be a situation where you can use specials but not normal attacks; can Sheik do this in previous games as well? It makes sense as a way to make off stage needle charging easier to recover from, but the timing is so strict it feels like a bug.

If they were to patch this, they would probably just do it by increasing the number of startup and/or cooldown frames for charging needles. If they did that the tech would still be relevant, since the momentum changes would still work, you would just act out of them slower. Completely eliminating this tech would involve drastic changes to the game engine (removing wavebouncing, or changing how specials work with stage friction) or adding a ridiculous amount of lag to a single move, and there isn't really any precedence for changes like that in previous patches. The closest thing they've done is make grounded specials no longer slide off ledges, and I don't think they did that intentionally, or at least it probably wasn't their real goal; just think about how Dreamland 64 would have worked without those changes, people would fall off the stage or platforms every time they used a special near the ledge when the wind was blowing their direction.

@ TakeYourHeart TakeYourHeart : I see your point about this being somewhat inconsistent with some of the games design principles, but move canceling isn't all that rare in smash: jumps can be canceled with item throws, up smashes, and up specials, rolls can be canceled by grabs and item throws, etc. Character specific canceling is a little more rare, but still not totally absent, Sonic can cancel his spin dash charge in a few ways, DDD can cancel his up B (bad example, but true), and Sheik can cancel dash attack into grab (OK, that one might get patched out).
 

Jaxas

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#64
I'm gonna summarize(/make a key from) @ Y YGK 's post a bit for myself, and I figured I may as well post it for other people to use too. He has some great stuff here, I'd hate for people to just skip over it because tl;dr or something.



Basic Info
  • You can buffer a "Non reversed wavebounce" (really just an easier input for the standard INC) by inputting the controls for a wavebounce (:GCR: + :GCB: + :GCCL:) but instead hitting the Cstick the direction you're facing (so :GCR:+:GCB:+:GCCR:)
    • It's easy to Ftilt out of this by hitting :GCA: before the INC while still holding :GCR:


Training Stuff
  • You can do a "Standing Wavebounce" to more efficiently practice grounded wavebounces.
    • Inputs are the same as a running Wavebounce, but you don't have to actually move
    • If done correctly, you'll see 1 frame of a reversed Needle Charge before turning back around and facing forward (hard to miss)
Column 1 Column 2

Input Outcome
:GCB: early Non-reversed Needle Charge
:GCCL: early Backwards Ftilt/(Fsmash)
:GCR:&:GCB: before :GCCL: Side Special
:GCCL: before :GCR:&:GCB: Ftilt(/Fsmash)


Also, if you hit :GCR: before anything else (also how it works while running!)
Column 1 Column 2

Input Outcome
:GCB: before :GCCL: Side Special
:GCCL: before :GCB: Dash Attack
 

TakeYourHeart

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
277
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solemnpancake
#65
Wow, I actually didn't realize you could cancel into other moves while in the air. During my testing I only ever tried to cancel into aerials, so I assumed the airdodge was unavoidable. It's pretty rare for there to be a situation where you can use specials but not normal attacks; can Sheik do this in previous games as well? It makes sense as a way to make off stage needle charging easier to recover from, but the timing is so strict it feels like a bug.

If they were to patch this, they would probably just do it by increasing the number of startup and/or cooldown frames for charging needles. If they did that the tech would still be relevant, since the momentum changes would still work, you would just act out of them slower. Completely eliminating this tech would involve drastic changes to the game engine (removing wavebouncing, or changing how specials work with stage friction) or adding a ridiculous amount of lag to a single move, and there isn't really any precedence for changes like that in previous patches. The closest thing they've done is make grounded specials no longer slide off ledges, and I don't think they did that intentionally, or at least it probably wasn't their real goal; just think about how Dreamland 64 would have worked without those changes, people would fall off the stage or platforms every time they used a special near the ledge when the wind was blowing their direction.

@ TakeYourHeart TakeYourHeart : I see your point about this being somewhat inconsistent with some of the games design principles, but move canceling isn't all that rare in smash: jumps can be canceled with item throws, up smashes, and up specials, rolls can be canceled by grabs and item throws, etc. Character specific canceling is a little more rare, but still not totally absent, Sonic can cancel his spin dash charge in a few ways, DDD can cancel his up B (bad example, but true), and Sheik can cancel dash attack into grab (OK, that one might get patched out).
I see. I had no idea it would take so much to get fully rid of this piece of tech. If true, you guys might be able to keep this after all.

(I say "if" cause while this is beyond me, it might be wise to not underestimate Sakurai or Nintendo in general, like poor ol' Greninja did). Neat though.
 

6 g0d

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
27
#66
is anyone else finding this extremely difficult to pull off anyone have anytips for learning?
 

tronfox64

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
72
Location
CT, USA - East Coast
#67
@ 6 g0d 6 g0d are you practicing Sliding Needle Cancels, or Forward Wavebounces? We sort of ended up with 2 different techs going on here.

if its the latter, try just running in one direction and pressing Backwards C-Stick + Special at the same time to do a front facing wavebounce (You will probably need to set a trigger button or Z to special). Don't worry about canceling it into a shield or attacks until you have it down reliably. Add those in once you feel comfortable.

If it is the former, I like my method of letting the left joystiq return to neutral for a moment, and then holding R (my Special) and buffering A (jab), followed immediately quick Shield. However, as @ Y YGK wrote above, and @ Jaxas Jaxas made a diagram of, you can also practice holding forward and doing a Forward C-Stick + Special to enter a a Needle State directly out of run. Once you have that down, you can practice immediately after buffering an A (jab) + quick Shield. Let us know if you end up with any success.
 

Wasserwipf

Smash Apprentice
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wasserwipf
#68
Soo. Sorry for being late on the train, but i finally managed to grab onto it... somehow, I guess.
Aaanyway, since the description on the OP is extremly sloppy and imo not correct at all, I felt like adding what I know here (I dunno if anyone else cares how this works, I do so yea). (Oh ima talking about the INC btw)

So, first things first, info. Needles. Okay, Needles basicly consits of 3 Animations.
1. Needle start (this will always happen when we use needles, it brings sheik to the position where she charges needles)
2. Needle charge (the animation where we gather Needles)
3. Needle cancel (the animation that plays when we cancel the charge)

Basicaly, we can only cancel the Needle charge animation. Both Needle start and Needle cancel are 7 frames long.
Now what OP suggests is that we Needle start, go to Needle charge and cancel that asap.
This is, infact, possible. HOWEVER, this takes 14 frames to happen at least, and requires you to be frame perfect. (If you are not, it will delay it further).
Shielding, let go, then attack is faster than that (somewhere in the 10 frames)

Now, how do we apply our tech here? So, what you need to do, is buffer the C-Stick during the 7 Frames of the NEEDLE START animation and then hit Shield, also within that timewindow. If you are too slow, you'll get into the Needle charge animation. You don't want to be there, it limits you extremly.
If done correctly however, we can SKIP both needle charge and needle cancel and throw out our attack on the fastest frame. It takes a total of 7 Frames and is always frame perfect. (7 Frames is not instant, but faster than human reaction, which is 10-12 on average).
So thats about the knowledge i have.
What I don't know:
1. Do we need to hold special
2. Does the order of C stick & shield matter?
3. Do w need to let go of shield within those 7 frames as well (I'd say so)
4. why defuq this works. I have literally no idea.

Since it's a 7 frame tech with... 3-6 inputs, it's super hard to figure them out exactly, I'm sorry.
What i guess is that we Needle>let go of special>C-stick>shield>let go of shield(>let go of C-stick).
Thats sounds logicaly to me, order might be different tho.

Ok that's it, hope that helped a bit. Oh and sorry for bad enlgish^^. Not my mother tongue
 

tronfox64

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
72
Location
CT, USA - East Coast
#69
Aaanyway, since the description on the OP is extremly sloppy and imo not correct at all
Let me know what you think was sloppy and I'll be happy to fix it up :). I did redo the OP recently too and it should be a little easier to read.

Now what OP suggests is that we Needle start, go to Needle charge and cancel that asap.
This is, infact, possible. HOWEVER, this takes 14 frames to happen at least, and requires you to be frame perfect. (If you are not, it will delay it further).
Shielding, let go, then attack is faster than that (somewhere in the 10 frames)
I'm sorry if anything was confusing but I showed all examples of 7 frame cancels, and even explained it as much faster than a normal wave needle (14 frames). I was suggesting that we perform the the tech by buffering to cancel early, not the other way around.
Also, shielding and letting go is around 19 frames, still longer than a regular wave needle, as Zankoku helped figure out on the first page.

Now, how do we apply our tech here? So, what you need to do, is buffer the C-Stick during the 7 Frames of the NEEDLE START animation and then hit Shield, also within that timewindow. If you are too slow, you'll get into the Needle charge animation. You don't want to be there, it limits you extremly.
If done correctly however, we can SKIP both needle charge and needle cancel and throw out our attack on the fastest frame. It takes a total of 7 Frames and is always frame perfect. (7 Frames is not instant, but faster than human reaction, which is 10-12 on average).
This is all correct.

So thats about the knowledge i have.
What I don't know:
1. Do we need to hold special
2. Does the order of C stick & shield matter?
3. Do w need to let go of shield within those 7 frames as well (I'd say so)
4. why defuq this works. I have literally no idea.
1. It's not necessary but I find it easier to pull off while holding it.
2. C-Stick cannot come out after Shield, or else you enter the full needle charge and cancel animation (waveneedle)
3. I press shield extremely quickly and lightly, but I will test this out tonight.
4. I tried to explain my theories in the OP as to why this works but i'm still not 100% sure if they are spot on or not. :p

Since it's a 7 frame tech with... 3-6 inputs, it's super hard to figure them out exactly, I'm sorry.
What i guess is that we Needle>let go of special>C-stick>shield>let go of shield(>let go of C-stick).
Thats sounds logicaly to me, order might be different tho.
Try these inputs out and see if they work any better for you.
:GCR: > :GCN: (very briefly) > Hold :GCB: (My :GCRT:) > :GCCN: > :GCLT: (briefly tap for a full cancel, or hold for shield)

Letting go of the inputs other than shield don't seem to matter much, if at all.

Alternatively you can try YGK's method, which involves:

While holding :GCR:, press :GCCR: + :GCB: (My :GCRT: too make it much easier), and then cancel with a buffered :GCCN:/:GCA:, then :GCLT:
 
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Wasserwipf

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 22, 2012
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191
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Switzerland
3DS FC
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wasserwipf
#70
----------------------------------------------------------------------------How I THINK it works (Sorry, its very hard to do considering I haven't practiced much yet):

How I THINK it works (Sorry, its very hard to do considering I haven't practiced much yet):
I think this takes principals from the Wave Needle, where your needle changes your momentum, and then the shield cancels your needles, but instead buffers an attack in before you actually have the shield input registered (or at the same time? it's difficult for me to tell). It doesn't make sense to me as to why it can happen so instantly, as needles typically have a few more uncancellable start up frames ( I could be wrong) but I'm pretty sure you can INC as fast as you can do the inputs.

Updated Theory:
The inputs are really tricky for whatever reason. My new theory is that when you press L (or R) during Needles, instead of L programmed to cast a shield right away, there seems to be a programmed 1-2 frame window of programmed "go back to neutral state so that you can then shield" and THEN shield will come out should you still be holding (Probably seen by developers as an easy way to let Sheik cancel her needles without changing the code for shields in general). I think this is why you can also wave needle without shield ever coming out- you simply let go of shield during this weird window where L acts like a "go to neutral" action rather than "shield". Because this small window of weirdness exists, I'm guessing you can buffer in a move and, if done correctly, the move will go off at the same time as "go to neutral", since it's unlikely they would have added any lag whatsoever to this property of "go to neutral". The end result is you never need to wait for shield or neutral out of needles.
This is all I see in the OP regarding the tech, and it's what I consider sloppy. You talk about a 1-2 frame window, and compare this even to waveneedeling which afaik works completly different and from a different mechanixc, so yea, thats what bugs me.

@controls, I was not asking how to perform this, but rather stating that it has many inputs, so I'm not aware what exactly I'm doing, when I'm letting go from what etc. (considering mechanical timing n stuff as well, it's pretty hard for me...) Oh and I consider letting go of something an input as well, and my guess is that letting go of the right stuff at the right time is crucial
 

tronfox64

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
72
Location
CT, USA - East Coast
#71
Its exactly like a waveneedle though... just interrupted with a buffered attack because of that tiny window where shield acts like a cancel instead of a shield. You can use mewtwo as a counterexample, since he will always go into shield when canceling out of his neutral B. Because he doesnt have this tiny window of "weirdness", he cant take advantage of it to the extent that Sheik can.

The controls can be difficult to learn, as I had quite some difficulty getting the hang of it as well, but letting go of things is actually pretty lenient as far as my memory serves. If anything is crucial to be let go at a specific point, I will come back and update this tonight when I can check with the game.

Edit: Releasing buttons doesn't seem to matter at all as I thought. However, it seems even shield doesn't need to be released. You can decide to hold down all inputs aside from the left Joystick if it makes it easier for you.
 
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YGK

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 23, 2015
Messages
55
Location
Minneapolis, MN
#72
@ Wasserwipf Wasserwipf : No need to rag on the OP, it was one of Tronfox's first posts here, and the tech was (and still is) being developed. If people really want to understand this tech, they should read the whole thread, not just the OP. The excellent gif's tronfox provides in the OP demonstrate what is possible with the tech, explaining how it works and how to do it is what this conversation is for. As for your technical questions, I suggest you review some of my earlier posts; my analysis provides answers to several of your questions, and although my thoughts are not hard fact, they are consistent with all the evidence we've found so far.

On the subject of inputs; releasing buttons has no effect on the tech as long as each input in entered in the correct order and with the correct timing. There are two exceptions to this; if you are trying to use neutral B while running, and choose not to use the C-stick + special input method, you need to release the left joystick at the correct time to avoid using side-B, and if you do not buffer an attack prior to inputting shield to cancel needles, you should quickly release the button to avoid shielding after you've canceled the animation.

@ Jaxas Jaxas : Thanks for organizing my findings like that, I am prone to lengthy explanations and having information organized like that will surely be helpful for others trying to learn how this works.

@ TakeYourHeart TakeYourHeart : I could be wrong, I'm not a game developer so perhaps there's something I'm not thinking of they could do to fix this. But I am a software developer and based on my understanding of how a game engine like this works, it would be difficult to fix this tech without making some uncharacteristic changes. I guess only time will tell.

@ 6 g0d 6 g0d : If you haven't already, I suggest you carefully read my post beginning with the sentence "O.K. then, I just spent 2 hours practicing this with a GC controller, and think I have a good handle on it." I go into a lot of detail about how I've been practicing this, and I've made a lot of progress using those techniques. This isn't easy, but with practice you can do it consistently.


Finally, there's an aspect of this tech that I'm just now fully appreciating, and would like to draw more attention to. While needle charging has very fast startup and cancel animations, buffered inputs appear to come out faster than simply canceling needles and then attacking should allow. If you slow down tronfox's gifs from the OP, you can see that Sheik transitions from the needle charging animation to an attacking animation, seemingly without a single frame of the cancel animation being rendered. While the 30 FPS gifs are not sufficient evidence to say the animation is skipped (and I don't believe that is the case), it is clear that Sheik does not go through a complete 7 frame cancel animation before initiating the next attack. Until we can get a frame-by-frame analysis of this tech from a 60fps video captured directly (that is, recorded by a capture card like you would use to stream, not by a camera pointed at the screen), we cannot be sure about the frame data, but there is plenty of evidence of buffered inputs coming out in less than 14 frames.
 

Wasserwipf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
191
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Switzerland
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wasserwipf
#73
@ Wasserwipf Wasserwipf : No need to rag on the OP, it was one of Tronfox's first posts here, and the tech was (and still is) being developed. If people really want to understand this tech, they should read the whole thread, not just the OP. The excellent gif's tronfox provides in the OP demonstrate what is possible with the tech, explaining how it works and how to do it is what this conversation is for. As for your technical questions, I suggest you review some of my earlier posts; my analysis provides answers to several of your questions, and although my thoughts are not hard fact, they are consistent with all the evidence we've found so far.

On the subject of inputs; releasing buttons has no effect on the tech as long as each input in entered in the correct order and with the correct timing. There are two exceptions to this; if you are trying to use neutral B while running, and choose not to use the C-stick + special input method, you need to release the left joystick at the correct time to avoid using side-B, and if you do not buffer an attack prior to inputting shield to cancel needles, you should quickly release the button to avoid shielding after you've canceled the animation.
Don't get me wrong, but @ tronfox64 tronfox64 stated himself that he recently updated the OP, so it would be nice if all the info would be found there.
Also please don't get mad at me for the following.
I posses a 60 FPS capture card. I went through this frame by frame. This is exactly why I'm posting. And i read all the posts. The thing is, there are many many many mistakes here and there (stating the needle startup aniamtion is roughly the same as b reverse. It's more then twice the time... and the duration of the tech, just an example).
What I wanted to point out originally is that Needle startup is 7 frames (this is a fact), needle cancel is 7 frames as well (this is a fact as well...). With the tech, we skip the second 7 frame animation. Which makes no sense to me as why this works.

So this shows us that this tech has no cancel animation at all, which is wrongly used in many posts, and that bugged me (as it shows me people have not yet understood whats happening). So yea, sorry if this sounds angry, it's hard for me to express myself in english :(.

@ tronfox64 tronfox64 you're right, Waveneedle skips the cancel as well. This makes me wonder, can we get rid of the cancel aniamtion without any input at all? Btw.
-INC: We skip it with a move.
-Waveneedle: (Perfect Input, 7 frames as well): We simply do a B-reverse to skip it.
That's why i tought the techs are familiar, but don't work the same way. But i can't realy figure out whats going on.
 

6 g0d

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
27
#74
thanks for the help guys :] i have been practicing alot and im starting to get it every once and a while so with more practice it should just become muscle memory.i can already see how important this will be.
 

tronfox64

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
72
Location
CT, USA - East Coast
#75
Keep working on it @ 6 g0d 6 g0d ! I was very discouraged in my initial practicing as well, but even in laggy For Glory matches I can pull it off without even thinking about it now. its just something you have to play around with until you can do it more and more consistently.

@ Wasserwipf Wasserwipf Ill take a look at the OP and see if I can't word things a bit better later tonight. I think the OP could use some touching up now as well. In addition, I think the reason we can "skip" frames 8 through 14 and guarantee a 7 frame cancel is because of this weirdness window that happens before shield comes out that allows buffered inputs to happen. I would elaborate as to why it works further... but I'm calling it weird for a reason :p

@ Y YGK I agree, Ill try to consolidate all the major things back into the OP tonight, but anyone learning this should definitely read the whole thread as many other posts have made helpful contributions or insights as well.
 
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WondrousMoose

Mind the antlers
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WondrousMoose
#76
While testing at 1/4 speed in Training, I noticed that there's a tiny window - maybe 1 frame; I'm bad at counting - where if you press Shield, she shields immediately, rather than return to neutral.

When you first press B, she lifts her left arm over her head with the first needle. The first standard cancel-able frame (return to neutral before shielding) is when her wrist pops back just slightly and comes just before a small, blue flash. If you shield the frame(?) before this - when her needle is straight up - that instant shield happens. I'm assuming that the buffered attack overrides that, thus giving us an attack instead of the needle cancel animation or shield.

I apologize for the vague language. I would greatly appreciate if someone more experienced tested this. While nothing astoundingly new, I feel that it's always good to fully understand our tech.
 
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YGK

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 23, 2015
Messages
55
Location
Minneapolis, MN
#77
@ Wasserwipf Wasserwipf : Thanks for clarifying your opinions, your English is easy to understand, but you tend to state things in a very simple and direct way, which can make you sound somewhat impolite. I'm sure this is a common problem when learning English. I still think it isn't necessary to make significant changes to the OP, but since tronfox has decided to update it, he may as well make the technical information more accurate.

On a similar note, I think I will edit some of my earlier posts with a correct explanation of how the cancel animation is skipped. At first I had just assumed the end animation has an early IASA frame so Sheik would act before finishing the animation (it is hard to distinguish the first 3-4 frames of the cancel animation from the charging animation), but now that I've been practicing frame perfect inputs and reviewing the gif's it is more apparent that we nearly or completely skip the animation.

@ WondrousMoose WondrousMoose : You are correct, there is a 1-2 frame window (I think 1, but I can't really test it) where inputting a shield will immediately cancel the animation into a shield, instead of performing the cancel animation and then shielding. Realizing that this window must somehow be special, I did some testing and realized we already know what this window is, but haven't completely characterized it yet. This is the cancellation window for Instant Needle Canceling. Your post helped connect a few dots for me, and now I think we can properly define the critical input window for INC.

Here comes another wordy technical analysis! Like many of my other posts, this isn't entirely new information, just a more detailed description of what we currently know.

There are two types of grounded needle cancels; Needle Canceling (NC) and Instant Needle Cancelling (INC). (I think there is only one for aerial needles, but I'll test that later)
The differences between these two forms are subtle:
  1. While a buffered input can be used out of both NC and INC, Sheik must return to a neutral state before attacking out of an NC. With INC you bypass the needle cancel animation and neutral state, transitioning from the startup animation for needles, directly into whatever attack you buffered. The difference between these transitions is most obvious with a buffered down tilt: while doing a NC buffered Dtilt you will see Sheik's head bob up to standing height before the tilt comes out, with an INC she just drops straight down into Dtilt. The transition animation in NC lasts only ~7 frames.
  2. Performing an INC requires you to cancel the needle charge animation during a small window during the startup animation. Exactly when this window begins and how many frames it lasts still needs to be tested, but the timing is quite strict. Cancelling after this window will result in a NC.
  3. Using a buffered INC attack while running will cause the move to be used while Sheik still has forward momentum, causing the move to slide along the ground slightly. (I think a nearly "frame perfect" NC may also experience this to a lesser degree. A "frame perfect NC" is a NC canceled one frame later than an INC, triggering the cancel animation).
The cancellation window for INC is the same as the "instant shield" window WondrousMoose described. It seems to last only 1-2 frames, and begins before Sheik completes the crouching animation at the start of her neutral B. It is around the first frame in which Sheik's hand is visible over her shoulder. The timing is tight, but not instant, and it feels like it's pretty close to the 7 frame startup time mentioned in previous posts (meaning, I think this special 1-2 frame window starts about 7 frames after initiating needles).

This window has a special property that should be useful for practicing the timing; if you tap shield during it, with no attacks buffered, your shield will come up, if you do the same one or more frames after the window, you will cancel needles without shielding (the input has to be very fast, faster than most people are used to tapping their shield button). When you buffer an attack during an INC, Sheik attacks instead of shielding, but the shield is easier to recognize than the subtle difference between NC and INC forms of the same attack, so it may be helpful to practice the INC timing without buffered attacks, then add in buffered attacks when already have the INC cancel timing down.

It would be very helpful if someone with a capture card (@ Wasserwipf Wasserwipf ?) could record a few examples of NC vs INC and provide 60fps gif's or videos to demonstrate the differences.

P.S. now that I have a more complete understanding of how this tech works, I think it is slightly more patch-able than I previously stated. They could remove the special cancel window that makes INC work differently than NC. However, I believe that this window was not put in accidentally, so it is very unlikely they will remove it. Even if they do, basic NC still has a lot of utility as a spacing tool, complete elimination of needle cancelling techniques would still require the drastic changes I mention in my earlier posts.

P.P.S. I think we are getting close to a complete technical understanding of this tech, once we have some frame-by-frame examples of the timing it may be a good idea to compile everything into a guide. There is some false information and mistaken analysis in this discussion, which is a natural consequence of us learning how it works over the course of this discussion. I don't think it makes sense to go back and correct previous posts every time we realize we made a mistake, but having a single document which accurately and completely details how this tech works could be enormously helpful for people trying to learn.
 

Tricky Al

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
34
Location
Dayton, OH
#78
This is
----------------------------------------------------------------------------Intro-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys. New Smashboards user here. Glad to be a part of the ninja revolution.
Was recommended to move this to it's own thread from the Sheik Compendium of Advanced Techniques, Combos, and Tricks thread so here it is. Guess this isn't my first post any longer ^^

Anyways, I was messing around with wave needling... and accidentally instant needle canceled (INC?) into a jab (diagonal c-stick ftw). I then spent forever trying to recreate it (wasn't quite sure what inputs I had used) and finally managed to do it well enough to record it. However curiosity got the best of me, and alas I tried other moves as well... and lo and behold it worked with each. Essentially what this means is that any move can be used at any time while running with whichever direction of momentum and facing you want.

-Anyways the Gifs-

Note: Further techniques and applications have been discovered throughout the course of this thread, and have been added to this OP.

Another Note: Don't give up when trying to practice anything below! The inputs have really strict timing and must all be pressed within very quick succession. It took me probably 2 straight hours of failed practice just to do it once in a blue moon (With enough practice, everything here can be ingrained into muscle memory for near flawless execution mid match).

-----------------------------------------------------Tech 1: Instant (7 Frames) Needle Cancels----------------------------------------------
Running Reverse DTilt (with reverse momentum):
http://gfycat.com/BleakSameIchthyostega

Running Reverse DTilt (with standard momentum):
gfycat.com/ContentEsteemedFrillneckedlizard

Running DTilt:
http://gfycat.com/EvergreenBlissfulGalapagossealion

Running Jab:
http://gfycat.com/SeriousNeglectedHorsemouse

Running Reverse Jab:
http://gfycat.com/SarcasticExhaustedKomododragon

Running FTilt (I'm so good at spacing /s):
http://gfycat.com/SleepyGlossyEmu

Running Reverse FTilt (has a ton of reach if you space it better than I did):
http://gfycat.com/ScaryGleefulEgg


As @ Jaxas Jaxas has pointed out, it seems you can do any move out of running Needle Cancels.

Whats really cool is how Needle Cancelling covers the options that Perfect Pivoting cannot, and vice versa. In neutral standing animation or fox trotting/dash dancing? Perfect Pivots covers pretty much any option with sliding momentum (I think people in general hugely underestimate the usefulness of PPs and Forward Attacking Perfect Pivots [FAPPs... coincidence, I swear]). Already committed to a full run? Instant Needle Cancel into whatever you want in whichever direction you want with momentum. They go together like Peanut Butter and Jelly.

This seems to be about as fast as you can Needle Cancel into attacks out of a Dash Dance:
http://gfycat.com/SelfassuredDeepHornbill#

-Old- How I THINK it works (Sorry, its very hard to do considering I haven't practiced much yet):
I think this takes principals from the Wave Needle, where your needle changes your momentum, and then the shield cancels your needles, but instead buffers an attack in before you actually have the shield input registered.

Updated Theory:
The inputs are really tricky for whatever reason. My new theory is that when you press L (or R) during Needles, instead of L programmed to cast a shield right away, there seems to be a programmed 1-2 frame window of programmed "go back to neutral state so that you can then shield" and THEN shield will come out should you still be holding (Probably seen by developers as an easy way to let Sheik cancel her needles without changing the code for shields in general). I think this is why you can also wave needle without shield ever coming out- you simply let go of shield during this weird window where L acts like a "go to neutral" action rather than "shield". Because this small window of weirdness exists, I'm guessing you can buffer in a move and, if done correctly, the move will go off at the same time as "go to neutral", since it's unlikely they would have added any lag whatsoever to this property of "go to neutral". The end result is you never need to wait for shield or neutral out of needles so long as something is buffered to come out during this window of weirdness.

Inputs for Needle Canceled Attacks: Run > [Let go of left stick for a split second] > hold B (or B-Reverse, I use R as a second special button for this) > C-Stick > Shield

:GCR: > :GCN: > Hold :GCB: (My :GCRT:) > :GCCN: > :GCLT:

Note on inputs #1: Make sure to hold down special button until after you press shield. This makes it incredibly more reliable for some reason. If done correctly, you should start an attack 7 frames after your running animation

Note on Inputs #2: I might recommend setting your extra shield button (R in my case) to Special Attack, as it feels a bit more natural to press R and L in quick succession than B and L and it allows me to flick the C-Stick to the right for FTilts within the tightly timed execution window much more reliably since my thumb doesn't have to be committed to B as well.

Note on Inputs #3: I realize my description of the inputs is mediocre at best. When I started learning it, I consciously thought of it in 2 steps. 1. Cancel Run into Needles (with whichever direction you want, essentially the start of a wave needle if your going to B-reverse) and then 2. as quickly as my fingers can (you should still be within the first few frames of bringing out needles), buffer the input of the attack I want to use, and like a frame later add in a brief L to add in this "go to neutral" weirdness phase.

Grab applications:
Originally I couldn't get it to work with grab (I could have just been failing) so the closest thing I could pull off was this
Wave Needle standing grab:
http://gfycat.com/AppropriateDisgustingArthropods
Edit: Actually there does seem to be a grab option with that seems better than a regular boosted grab. Will have to try to figure out the inputs more precisely. Ill post any gifs of it right here if/when I do.
Edit2: This may actually be a roll cancelled grab.

----------------------------------------------Tech 1.5: Landing Attacks out of aerial Needle Charging-----------------------------------
(NOTE - THE BELOW GIFS NO LONGER WORK AS WELL IN 1.0.8 DUE TO NEEDLE GLIDE NO LONGER CARRYING MOMENTUM OFF LEDGES. You can still wait until your in the air, but the speed is slower):
(Just input C-Stick > Shield just before you land while needling)

Edit:
You can actually still do these almost as fast using the tech below. it's still not quite as fast, but its faster than a normal B-Reverse while airborne.
http://gfycat.com/BlueJitteryCrow
http://gfycat.com/HardNaturalBat
http://gfycat.com/DearestDigitalAlligatorsnappingturtle
http://gfycat.com/PracticalSpotlessDinosaur
http://gfycat.com/HighSilkyLamprey

Inputs: While charging Needles in the air, buffer an attack just a couple frames before landing, then quickly press shield to cancel the charge and let the buffered attack come out.

While airborne: :GCB:(my :GCRT:) > About to hit ground > :GCCN: > :GCLT: (shield just as you hit the ground)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One other "weird thing". Every once in a while I accidentally do an extreme wave needle backwards while still facing the same direction I was running. It puts you into neutral extremely quickly too. Imagine a wave needle that's twice as fast and far, and keeps you facing forwards instead of turning you. No idea how to replicate this yet but it has something to do with left/right C-stick in combination of left/right stick while Needle Canceling

Edit: This has been fully discovered now too and has a huge myriad of applications! See below!

^ ---------------------------------------------------------Tech 2: Wavebounce Cancels-----------------------------------------------------------
(Note this is different from from traditional wavebounce in inputs, and produces a slightly further bounce in the air. It's [imo] a good bit easier than current wavebouncing methods as well, but it's still definitely worth knowing both):

This "weird thing" has been Figured out thanks to the video by @TheReflexWonder towards the bottom of this page! Its a Grounded Wavebounce Cancel that acts similarly to a backwards wavedash believe it or not. It can also be used in the air for forward-facing-yet-retreating needles, needle fidgit options such as airdash back and then cancel into bouncing fish, or for needle landing (which you can then integrate tech 1.5 out of).

Added - Examples of Retreating Wavebounce Cancels from the next page:

--

New - Aerial and Grounded "WaveFish":
(You can "WaveFish" in the air, while landing, on the ground, etc. In fact, It works exceptionally well with bouncing fish especially. Here are some examples.)

Landing WaveFish
http://gfycat.com/MediumSmallIbadanmalimbe

Grounded WaveFish:
http://gfycat.com/SkeletalSpotlessBelugawhale

Aerial WaveFish:
(Uses the Needle Fidgit tech to cancel the wavebounce into specials, most notably Bouncing Fish and Vanish)
http://gfycat.com/LikelyJampackedIchneumonfly

--

Making a Read:
http://gfycat.com/SparseOilyAmoeba

Wavedash into Shield & Punish:
http://gfycat.com/SilentDeadlyKestrel

Avoiding & Punish (You could decide to not bring out her shield for faster punishes too):
http://gfycat.com/TiredFamousBass

Reverse Momentum Forward facing Needle Edgeguard:
http://gfycat.com/GrimTotalJavalina

Punishing Rolls:
http://gfycat.com/PastelShockedAkitainu
http://gfycat.com/IllinformedPartialGnatcatcher
http://gfycat.com/DopeyAcrobaticGreatdane

Punishing Dash Attacks:
http://gfycat.com/EsteemedSlightAfricanelephant

Covering the Ledge while recovering high:
http://gfycat.com/QueasyAgreeableDouglasfirbarkbeetle

Releasing Needles instead of Canceling:
http://gfycat.com/RecentFantasticCopperbutterfly

Mindgames? (can be done a bit faster than done here too):
http://gfycat.com/DampSpeedyAuklet

Inputs for Grounded Wavebounce Cancels:
While holding :GCR:, press :GCCL: + :GCB: (My :GCRT: too make it much easier), and then cancel with :GCLT:

Edit4: Fixed up the post... a lot. Also, read the entire thread to get a full understanding of how everything works, as a good amount of information was discovered from various users as to how and why both these techs work.

I don't play competitively so I'm not quite sure what the implications of this are... but something tells me 20XX includes Sheik.
This is f*****g amazing! I think I just became a Shiek main. First day and I'm already pulling it off. With standard controls too! I'll be in the lab if you guys need me >:D
 

Tricky Al

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
34
Location
Dayton, OH
#80
Welcome to the Ninja academy. You must have some Sheikah blood within you to be pulling them off that quickly! Awesome!
Don't give me too much credit lol! It's far from consistent. And I love the technical stuff personally. I'm a big fighting game fan and have only gotten into competitive Smash over the past three months but I'm hooked! Loving Sheik's ability to defy gravity. Thanks to anyone that contributed to this thread :)
 
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