This is a new samus technique, which I first discovered playing a falco when up B-ing out of shield. This is samus's Second Spike! The way this is performed is catching your opponent on the edge of your up B hitbox, http://i.imgur.com/oKSgZ.gif, when this move is nearly complete, the hitboxes all spin in a clockwise direction, and if your opponent is caught on the outer most edge of the hitbox, their momentum will be continued on with this move. The are two outcomes if done correctly depending where you first catch your opponent, either directly upward behind samus, or the more frequent, launched at a 45 degree angle downward behind samus. Videos will be coming up later today when I get the time to do them.
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NEW SAMUS TECHNIQUE, 2nd SPIKE!!!
- Thread starter Litt
- Start date
Here you guys go, lemme know what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iINpgzhdac&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iINpgzhdac&feature=youtu.be
Violence
Smash Lord
Yeah, but... it isn't new... I'm pretty sure we've all done this on accident and we all know about it. It's very susceptible to DI and not a very reliable thing.
_wzrd
Smash Journeyman
not a samus player, but it seems like it'd be a pretty funny way to edgeguard someone, especially falco/or falcon with their lame recoveries.
drop from the ledge up b up on their recovery lmfao
drop from the ledge up b up on their recovery lmfao
Violence
Smash Lord
No, it's not a technique, it's not a technique if it only works on computers or stationary dummies.
You might as well be telling me Samus has a chain throw.
No, you can use the reverse up b closer to the opponent and it in turn launches them upward instead, so yes it can be used against real players when samus is using up b out of shield... sooo eat a **** violence, and no samus does not have a chain throw but she can tech chase alright if she has the extended grappling ;P
Violence
Smash Lord
If it's a launcher which, you know, the reverse up B is well known to do, then first of all, it's not new, and second of all, it's not a "second spike."
And the extender for tech chasing is also not real. If the opponent purposely misses tech and neutral get ups on reaction to the extender coming out, they have frame advantage for an easy punish.
And the extender for tech chasing is also not real. If the opponent purposely misses tech and neutral get ups on reaction to the extender coming out, they have frame advantage for an easy punish.
violence, you are just being intentionally argumentative, this is a new technique, if others wish to disagree I will be happy to argue with them but nothing you say has any substance and I believe you are just jealous you did not understand this move before myself.
Violence
Smash Lord
o_O dude, everyone who's ever up B out of shielded a space animal knows about the random chance they have of getting knocked out of it at a weird angle, it's nothing new.
Seriously, are you just trying to troll here? A technique is something that you do that has efficacy based on how well you perform it. Up B ooS is a technique. Jab canceling is a technique. When your opponent has to DI favorably for your move to achieve a certain outcome, it ceases to be a technique. For example, Fair->Fair->Fair is not a technique, it's only works if your opponent DI hard in on each Fair. Likewise, an up B spike only works if your opponent either doesn't DI a reverse up B launch into your back spin hitbox or manages to favorably DI into your back spin hitbox after being regular up B'd. It's not like it doesn't happen, but you don't have control over whether or not it happens, your opponent does.
Try recording some video of this happening in tournament and do it consistently and repeatably. You'll see what I mean.
Seriously, are you just trying to troll here? A technique is something that you do that has efficacy based on how well you perform it. Up B ooS is a technique. Jab canceling is a technique. When your opponent has to DI favorably for your move to achieve a certain outcome, it ceases to be a technique. For example, Fair->Fair->Fair is not a technique, it's only works if your opponent DI hard in on each Fair. Likewise, an up B spike only works if your opponent either doesn't DI a reverse up B launch into your back spin hitbox or manages to favorably DI into your back spin hitbox after being regular up B'd. It's not like it doesn't happen, but you don't have control over whether or not it happens, your opponent does.
Try recording some video of this happening in tournament and do it consistently and repeatably. You'll see what I mean.
when can you use this technique?
when is it useful?
can you do it consistently against competent players and consistently get favorable results from it?
from what I could tell from the video, it's not all that great for edgeguarding. a cpu marth could recover from it around 100%?
it seems like it could be good for gtfo, but the mechanics look confusing...i dunno, put up some matches between you and someone else and if you can use it in a way that seems useful, maybe it'll catch on
violence is just being skeptical. if you want your new "technique" to catch on, you gotta answer the skepticals too dude
when is it useful?
can you do it consistently against competent players and consistently get favorable results from it?
from what I could tell from the video, it's not all that great for edgeguarding. a cpu marth could recover from it around 100%?
it seems like it could be good for gtfo, but the mechanics look confusing...i dunno, put up some matches between you and someone else and if you can use it in a way that seems useful, maybe it'll catch on
violence is just being skeptical. if you want your new "technique" to catch on, you gotta answer the skepticals too dude
Ya I know dude, I dont have any good recording equipment, and havent have the time to go to any tournies in a while, to answer your questions, its main use it just out of a shield, it is useful all the time because normally when ending an up B you are left vulnerable for a few seconds but if you can successfully pull this off, your opponent will be shot up or down giving you proper time to recover. This is technically a spike because of the physics behind it, but in no way can it be used to edgeguard consistently, I put this up more to give a better understanding of the physics behind this move as well as a practical application of it. I dont have the time, or patience to convince skeptics, but try it for yourself people and hope my description helped.
Violence
Smash Lord
Are you still trying to maintain that you can consistently do this on another human being? Because I'm going to keep calling bull**** on that if you are.
Also, why is shooting your opponent down toward the ground faster a good thing? They can just tech and now they have frame advantage while you're stuck in special fall. One of the advantages of up B to top platforms is that your opponent is often knocked onto the platform after you, letting you use your frame advantage to tech chase them in such a small area. Making them fall to the ground faster is counterproductive.
So I still don't really think that
1. This is new.
2. This can be done consistently on any human opponent using any kind of DI.
3. That even if it can be done, that is a desirable thing to do, as the result is pretty much the opposite of what you want to happen.
Also, why is shooting your opponent down toward the ground faster a good thing? They can just tech and now they have frame advantage while you're stuck in special fall. One of the advantages of up B to top platforms is that your opponent is often knocked onto the platform after you, letting you use your frame advantage to tech chase them in such a small area. Making them fall to the ground faster is counterproductive.
So I still don't really think that
1. This is new.
2. This can be done consistently on any human opponent using any kind of DI.
3. That even if it can be done, that is a desirable thing to do, as the result is pretty much the opposite of what you want to happen.
To address your questions, I can actually do it consistently on the edge of my up b hotbox, as for the tech, it is irrelevant because when they are thrown downward, it slows down their motion so much so that you can get back to the ground with a fast fall before they are able to even tech. Also if you shoot them upward rather than down, it gives you even more time to get back to the ground. No i would agree with you that this is not new, I am merely trying to explain the physics behind this relatively confusing move as well as practical applications of this technique. As i have said before, it is very difficult to DI out of this because of a, the number of times you are being hit by the 4 hitboxes in this move as well as the timing in which you are being launched, and finally yes it is a desirable thing to do, and it will catch almost everyone off guard as to what is happening in the moment.
Pluplue
Smash Ace
Neat but not exactly useful. Good players will always DI out of your up b. Also the knockback of the spike is too weak to be able to follow up with anything.
I do have another theory as to the physics behind this move, when the 4 hitboxes are spinning around, there seem two be two spikes, one down to the left and one down to the right, and it depends which hit box is the last to hit the opponent on the way up as to the follow up direction in which they go because of the attack.
Violence
Smash Lord
So first of all, try playing some actual good human players and test this out of them, and then record video like you have of yourself. I'm pretty sure you can't do it consistently in a match.
Second of all, you are completely wrong about it "slowing down their motion." Did you watch your own videos? There's no way you're touching the ground before they can tech. Every single time you perform it, they hit the ground first, not close. How are you trying to claim that your "spike" slows their motion? It clearly doesn't, it sends them flying toward the ground.
Shooting them upward rather than downward is otherwise known as a regular up B.
It's not difficult to DI at all, the Up B has multiple hitboxes, once you get to a certain level pretty much everyone and their mother DIs your Up B.
Catching people off guard is not a good reason to do something. If it doesn't gain you any kind of advantage, catching people off guard is pretty close to completely useless. For example, I try to shield grab you. You expect an up B so you wavedash back after shield pressure, and I grab you. That is catching someone off guard, but it gains you something.
You recover high with Marth. Rather than do the easy fsmash/utilt edgeguard, I go for an up B reverse spike. I caught you off guard, but you recover easily from it, and I fail to edgeguard. My new "technique" gained me absolutely nothing, and I shouldn't have done it in the first place.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
These areguments are stupid. The only time this can be useful, yes it has uses, is out of shield. Your example Violence involves someone being stupid. You obviously do not edge guard using this. If you get it OoS and your opponent is not prepared to DI out of it because uh, they are pressuring your shield so they can quite possibly flub their defensive DI then it forces them into the air, away from you, and possibly off stage. There. It just makes up B OoS better when your opponent doesn't DI correctly. It gives you a bit of offensive control. It's not game breaking and I don't think that was K_Litt's intention.
I think you just pushed him into defending it in ways he did not originally intend to so you could not discredit him.
(uthrow->upair with fox must not be a technique since I, a bad player, can SDI out of it right? No.)
It is not a go to option but it has uses.
I think you just pushed him into defending it in ways he did not originally intend to so you could not discredit him.
(uthrow->upair with fox must not be a technique since I, a bad player, can SDI out of it right? No.)
It is not a go to option but it has uses.
How I feel. Somewhat. It just punishes bad DI because everyone DI's correctly all the time (i.e. Marth fair combos).
Violence
Smash Lord
You can't control when it happens out of shield because your opponent is moving all around your shield and a reverse up B won't always result in this effect. Go ahead, try it in your next match.
You need SDI to escape Fox's uthrow uair, at a precise timing, at a precise direction. For this, you literally just have to hold a single direction to avoid the spiking hitbox, anywhere that isn't into the hitbox. It's far easier than most other DI requirements in the game because of how much time you have to input the DI and the nonspecificity of the DI direction. You can be pressuring my shield and then react to getting hit by my up B and easily have plenty of time to move the control stick away. It's not that it's escapable, it's that it's very easily escapable. Let's turn this around. Your jab cancel pressure Fox's shield, and Fox manages to grab you, and instantly dthrow dsmashes. Do you get hit by it? Of course not, dthrow to dsmash is ridiculously easy to avoid, not only can you tech, but you can DI away. Foxes usually dthrow->tech chase because Samus's tech roll is slower than Fox's dash. This is very similar to this technique. They can DI away to avoid being spiked, and even if they are spiked, they can tech the ground before Samus can do anything to follow up. There's no reason to do it, it's counter productive to the reason you want to Up B out of shield in the first place, to gain frame advantage or a combo. When you hit a normal up B out of shield to a top platform, you want your opponent to land on the top platform or on the side platform, because now you make the first action. It's not productive to have them hurtling downward toward the side platform rapidly, because they can just tech and now you don't have the first action, they do.
Again, I fail to see the uses.
You send your opponent to the ground faster, which is bad.
You can't follow up on it, which is bad.
You give your opponent frame advantage, which is bad.
So yeah. Not new, not consistently usable, and not a desirable outcome.
You need SDI to escape Fox's uthrow uair, at a precise timing, at a precise direction. For this, you literally just have to hold a single direction to avoid the spiking hitbox, anywhere that isn't into the hitbox. It's far easier than most other DI requirements in the game because of how much time you have to input the DI and the nonspecificity of the DI direction. You can be pressuring my shield and then react to getting hit by my up B and easily have plenty of time to move the control stick away. It's not that it's escapable, it's that it's very easily escapable. Let's turn this around. Your jab cancel pressure Fox's shield, and Fox manages to grab you, and instantly dthrow dsmashes. Do you get hit by it? Of course not, dthrow to dsmash is ridiculously easy to avoid, not only can you tech, but you can DI away. Foxes usually dthrow->tech chase because Samus's tech roll is slower than Fox's dash. This is very similar to this technique. They can DI away to avoid being spiked, and even if they are spiked, they can tech the ground before Samus can do anything to follow up. There's no reason to do it, it's counter productive to the reason you want to Up B out of shield in the first place, to gain frame advantage or a combo. When you hit a normal up B out of shield to a top platform, you want your opponent to land on the top platform or on the side platform, because now you make the first action. It's not productive to have them hurtling downward toward the side platform rapidly, because they can just tech and now you don't have the first action, they do.
All these things are not necessarily good if they don't get you frame advantage. When you up B a Fox at low percents on Final Destination, and you don't have a good landing in mind, like the edge, they get to spam laser until they laser cancel their landing out of tumble rather than hitting the ground and entering knockdown. Your up B forced them into the air and away from you, and possibly off stage, but because they get to touch the ground while not in knockdown first, they have frame advantage, and that's why up Bing in that situation is bad. Similarly, if you up B and happen to hit a reverse spike, now they're either on the ground even faster than before, or slightly off stage, while you can't follow up. They double jump back on stage, and now you've finally landed, and they're running before you get out of special landing lag.
Again, I fail to see the uses.
You send your opponent to the ground faster, which is bad.
You can't follow up on it, which is bad.
You give your opponent frame advantage, which is bad.
So yeah. Not new, not consistently usable, and not a desirable outcome.
Wow lol this got a bit more attention than I anticipated, but here it is used at 10:40 in the video, and the opponent is completely taken by surprise by it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZI9QKeQ7SI
Violence
Smash Lord
I'm not saying the effect doesn't happen, notice how Darrell was unable to control whether or not it happened. He up B's the first time and it doesn't happen, and he up B's the second time and it happens.
Also, look at the end results. At 10:40, Darrell up B's and Sheik is thrown upward as usual. Darrell gets to the ground, and has successfully reset the situation back to neuitral.
At the end of the second up B, Binyan(Darkatma) is thrown onto a platform and then falls to the ground stage and is in standing animation BEFORE Darrell is. Darrell's trapped in special fall. The reason Binyan choked is because he's a at a super high percentage. The move was completely unsafe there, AND uncontrollable. Exactly my two points.
Also, look at the end results. At 10:40, Darrell up B's and Sheik is thrown upward as usual. Darrell gets to the ground, and has successfully reset the situation back to neuitral.
At the end of the second up B, Binyan(Darkatma) is thrown onto a platform and then falls to the ground stage and is in standing animation BEFORE Darrell is. Darrell's trapped in special fall. The reason Binyan choked is because he's a at a super high percentage. The move was completely unsafe there, AND uncontrollable. Exactly my two points.
Except this tech is still very underexplored and most people still don't know how to use it.... I would have then and now told you that you are a dumbass tho for making this kind of postyoLitt this is the kind of post that your current self would've given your old self a looooooooot of grief over
That may not be true, it is my theory that there are 4 ways the up b can send you, all normal SDI out of normal falling out is how the up b normally functions where the players gets sent into tumble. The 2 middle ares in which you can be sent out left or right force this strange spike animation as a result of the circular hit boxes, so even if you DI or SDI out of the up b at this point you will still be spiked, and if the opponent is released from the up b hitboxes above samus, they get sent flying upward.
(To make more sense, the hitboxes either move clockwise or counter clockwise depending on samus's position and if you reverse the up b or not.) Any one of the 4 you can be closest to when SDiing out of the Up b, so if you are on one of them goign from the upper most point to the right side in a clockwise motion, they will get sent outwards and downward at the spike angle.
Now this is just me theorizing tbh and I have no clue if anything of this is legitimate or not, but i am fascinated by this tech and not quite sure how to explore it any further given the tools/technology at my disposal.
Entirely weight and fall speed dependent, as I said, this tech is unexplored even by myself because I don't have the proper tools to test my theories regarding how it may work
Samus grounded upb has 2 spiking hitboxes above her on hitgroup 5-12, which occur between frames 14-29 and send at 200°. The 2 lower hitboxes never spike, and all other hitboxes send between 100° - 110° except the very last single hitbox which sends at 70°. The hitboxes don't spin with samus, so the spiking boxes are always the upper ones. The upper hitboxes have lower priority, so the victim has to hit only them to get spiked. The hitboxes of early groups are stronger than later groups, and the spiking hitboxes are even weaker than the hitboxes below samus.
13th hit is a big single hitbox that's very weak and causes the low kb on the victim that usually happens. However if he escapes before the last hit, the kb will be much higher, and the earlier he escapes the harder he gets sent off.
Aerial upb doesn't have spiking hitboxes at all.
Hope this helps to understand the upb.
13th hit is a big single hitbox that's very weak and causes the low kb on the victim that usually happens. However if he escapes before the last hit, the kb will be much higher, and the earlier he escapes the harder he gets sent off.
Aerial upb doesn't have spiking hitboxes at all.
Hope this helps to understand the upb.
Umm, what do you mean? Hitbox spikes if it sends below or exactly horizontal angle, it's never % dependant except in the case of sakurai angled moves on grounded opponents, but samus upb doesn't have those.
Hmm perhaps you can better explain how... i believe it was phanna... used it as a spike against a falcon rising with up b while phanna was on stage? (was in one of his combo vids and im sure you or at least someone here remembers/can link). II don't understand how Up could have a spike hitbox when falcon did not go above the stage, unless in that instance I am thinking of, the falcon was riding the wall, and phanna reverse up bed so the bottom 2 hitboxes of the up b swapped when contact with falcon was made so he could not be carried upward with samus so falcon was stage spiked and not actually spiked as a result of the spikes in the up b? Only thing I can imagine actually occurred should your data be correct on samus's up b hitboxes. Also where did you get that information? Ive scoured the boards and internet for ages for anything relevant to the up b frame data.
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If the falcon was riding wall when he got hit, I think a stage spike is likely since the upb sends up and toward samus.
Looked up in the Toomai's hitbox spreadsheet. You can find a download link in the kadano's perfect marth thread, in the op at the index.
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Xtra_Crispy
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2015
- Messages
- 54
Saw this in a video today, Hugs seems to get a kill off this against westballz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkScP2twHgM
11:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkScP2twHgM
11:45
different thing, westballz sdied out of the up b and mistechs the side of the stage and just fell
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Aftermath
Smash Champion
Well, it looks like he techs at first glance, but he's still in tumble afterwards and there was a green shockwave instead of the tech animation. Most likely it was just a stage spike from the last couple hits of the upB. Even if he wasn't being sent straight sideways, the strangeness of YS could have come into play.
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Pretty much this, except he didn't even sdi. The upb just sent him towards the wall and he missed the tech, so he got stage spiked.
only way to know that is to ask westballz if he sdied... :/ otherwise my theory is just as valid as yours
Comet7
Smash Lord
if there was a green flash west didn't tech it