New No Setup IC "Jump Desync"

[DerfMidWest]

lol that sounds like a good way to do it.
I was messing around with this early, it's so ****ing cool.
the ledges are really weird to get used to though. I can ledgedash consistently, after some practice, but doing aerials from the ledge is hard.
And I can't nana rocket at all yet lmao.

 

[imrai]

I have a solution. Get the angle ready on your own sometime and put a little sharpie mark at the angle you need

Thought about this last night, it's what I'd use as well.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I've been using the sharpie trick pretty well.
I'm gonna switch to my white controller when I want to use these since the cstick on that one won't wiggle around at all.
my cstick on my good controller is a little too loose for comfort.

 

[kelots]

anyone tried using this in a tourney/vs people on stream yet? interested to see how it plays

 

[S2rulL]

I swear to god this desynch is nothing short of wizardry...

 

[DerfMidWest]

anyone tried using this in a tourney/vs people on stream yet? interested to see how it plays

I've been using the c-stick calibration technique in friendlies, but I have a wiggly c-stick, so it sucks.
I have a white controller laying around somewhere, so I'm going to try practicing on that and see how it goes.
basically, this technique is amazing, but the major drawback that makes me uncomfortable using it in tournament yet it the ledge thing.
it's so finicky and awkward that it's going to take quite a bit of getting used to in order to do basic off the ledge things.

 

[Dembo]

I can't drop from ledges when this is active, anyone else having this problem?

 

[DerfMidWest]

I can't drop from ledges when this is active, anyone else having this problem?

you have to do it with the c-stick.
problem I'm having is accidently buffering uairs when I do this.
I think it will be a lot easier once I get a new controller that hasn't been broken in.

 

[Myougi]

I love how we're still finding things with Melee's ice Climbers.
I'm going to learn this ASAP. Nice find, Fly!

20XX, here we come.

 

[SSS]

I'm currently looking into messing with what the game parses as the C-stick's neutral position to see if I can get free desynchs more or less whenever I want. For example, if I can get the game to think the C-stick in neutral has a vertical value of 75, then I could do Nana-only dsmashes whenever I want, at the cost of not being able to C-stick dsmashes with Popo. Conveniently, 75 is outside of the range at which the C-stick buffers spot-dodges, so I wouldn't need to worry about ruining Popo's shield.

Could you hold the c-stick at 75 up while plugging in your controller and then get free desynchs? You'd just have to figure out right where that was on your c-stick.

 

[Ganreizu]

Could you hold the c-stick at 75 up while plugging in your controller and then get free desynchs? You'd just have to figure out right where that was on your c-stick.

I love how the day after i explain to someone why holding inputs while plugging in a controller makes it think it's neutral, i see it being used to facilitate ATs.

Brilliant, guys. Absolutely brilliant.

 

[S2rulL]

I still can't hack this bit of tech... Been trying it for the past couple of weeks and I'm just not precise enough lol

#RollDesyncSQUAAAD

 

[SSS]

I love how the day after i explain to someone why holding inputs while plugging in a controller makes it think it's neutral, i see it being used to facilitate ATs.

Brilliant, guys. Absolutely brilliant.

Because the GameCube controller is genius and re-calibrates itself every time you plug it in to accommodate for little changes in the analog stick over time.

Bless you, GameCube Controller.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

That is one thing I had in mind, although it's easier to just reset the controller after plugging it in, at least if you want to use visual cues to help set it up.

 

[SSS]

That is one thing I had in mind, although it's easier to just reset the controller after plugging it in, at least if you want to use visual cues to help set it up.

You could mark your C-stick with a sharpie on the exact point so that you push it up until the line you drew meets the controller's shell.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't like sharpie methods much because of the degree of precision required.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I don't like sharpie methods much because of the degree of precision required.

I had the same issue with it.
I marked it with sharpie just as a guideline though, but it doesn't help much.

 

[S2rulL]

I still can't do this lmao

 

[1MachGO]

Might as well post the video I made on the C-stick stuff here as well; it's kind of long and is largely stuff already present in this topic, but it does show some examples of things that can be done with specific C-stick calibrations here and there.

Wow. The implications for this are insane. Particularly the upward re-calibration since it gives you the free jump desync. Perfect bair shield pressure might actually be very possible: http://smashboards.com/threads/ice-climbers-shield-pressure.280913/

Btw, the most reliable way to set this up would be to push the c-stick up with a metric ruler. Simply align the edge of the ruler with the base of the c-stick and count how many millimeters you needed to push it upward to get the correct calibration (you can create a reference point using the d-pad by marking a line across the controller).This method obviously won't work for the downward calibration but it should require far less trial and error to get it right for the upward one.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

There isn't a guarantee that an integer number of millimeters would work due to the precision involved.

 

[1MachGO]

There isn't a guarantee that an integer number of millimeters would work due to the precision involved.

True, but this would ultimately depend on your reference point.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

This sounds ridiculous, but I found a great way of doing the usmash/OoS jump desynch set-up with a coffee straw.

Put the controller on a flat surface, face up, with the end of the controller opposite the triggers against an object that won't move so that the controller won't slide over the course of this. Enter the CSS holding start and either X or Y with the same hand, ready to also hit the other jump button with the same hand. With your other hand, put the coffee straw between the C-stick and the higher buttons, parallel to the long direction of the controller. With one finger on each end of the coffee straw, gradually push the coffee straw into the C-stick with a low force. As the coffee straw becomes more bent, the C-stick itself moves less and less, and by the time you're around the place you want the C-stick to be, it's not very difficult to move the C-stick by one vertical value at a time or hold it in a particular position, meaning you can zoom in on the right visual cue and hold it there throughout the controller reset. Be sure that your hands don't bump into each other when you press the remaining jump button to do the controller reset since that can screw with the C-stick's position.

Personally, I put the controller on the ground, sit down, and use my leg as the object to hold it in place. I press the buttons with my right hand curled downwards, using my thumb on start, the fingernail of my pinky on Y, ready to press X with my middle finger. I use my left pinky and left index to pull down the coffee straw.

 

[S2rulL]

This sounds ridiculous, but I found a great way of doing the usmash/OoS jump desynch set-up with a coffee straw.

Put the controller on a flat surface, face up, with the end of the controller opposite the triggers against an object that won't move so that the controller won't slide over the course of this. Enter the CSS holding start and either X or Y with the same hand, ready to also hit the other jump button with the same hand. With your other hand, put the coffee straw between the C-stick and the higher buttons, parallel to the long direction of the controller. With one finger on each end of the coffee straw, gradually push the coffee straw into the C-stick with a low force. As the coffee straw becomes more bent, the C-stick itself moves less and less, and by the time you're around the place you want the C-stick to be, it's not very difficult to move the C-stick by one vertical value at a time or hold it in a particular position, meaning you can zoom in on the right visual cue and hold it there throughout the controller reset. Be sure that your hands don't bump into each other when you press the remaining jump button to do the controller reset since that can screw with the C-stick's position.

Personally, I put the controller on the ground, sit down, and use my leg as the object to hold it in place. I press the buttons with my right hand curled downwards, using my thumb on start, the fingernail of my pinky on Y, ready to press X with my middle finger. I use my left pinky and left index to pull down the coffee straw.

You, sir, are a wizard.

 

[Theftz22]

LOL this thread is amazing. In the year 20xx, fox mains control all the coffee straw factories and secretly manufacture defective products to destroy the last bastion of anti-20xx technology.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

One more thing to say about this:

There's a strange claw grip you can use to compensate for many of the nuisances of using a strangely calibrated C-stick. Namely, you can wrap your right pinky or ring finger over the top of the controller and hold the C-stick in a position such that the game parses it as neutral or roughly neutral, and then do the rest of your inputs more or less normally. This lets you play relatively normally minus the usual uses of the C-stick, and you can simply release the C-stick to neutral whenever you want to do sensitivity desynchs. For example, with the usmash/jump desynch OoS calibration, you can just hold the C-stick down most of the way and release that whenever you want to either do usmash desynchs or the jump desynch. You can even hold down all the way on the C-stick and play mostly normally, but that does screw with edge behavior (which can be compensated for by just making the proper adjustments before grabbing the edge) and ASDI to some degree. You still need to be careful about not moving the joystick around too much, but I find this doable.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I'm interested in playing around with that later.
The biggest problem for me with the cstick calibration is just the ledge stuff.

 

[KingKirb]

So, is it theoretically possible to do this "by feel" without resetting the controller?

It's a long shot, but maybe someone could train their muscle memory and become godlike

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's at least mostly humanly feasible, although some of the stuff is pretty far from the realm of possibility. For example, actively holding the C-stick at a position that would trigger a Popo action, but not a Nana action, so that you could bust out a Nana-only usmash or whatever whenever you want, I think is a big stretch.

 

[Smog]

If the c-stick wasn't so touchy I think people would possibly do this, but it seems you need just as much muscle memory to keep the c-stick in place as to move it the the perfect degree without all the weirdness.

 

[Kyu Puff]

So theoretically it's possible to have Popo wavedash backwards and Nana u-smash/blizzard from neutral? Sounds pretty broken if anybody could figure out how to execute it consistently.

At least some of the oddities present with the joystick are also present with the C-stick, e.g. if you hit up on the C-stick with a vertical value of 181 while the stick is horizontally neutral (i.e. has value 128), Popo alone will usmash. I'd expect behavior to be mirrored very closely, but I'll look into it more.

edit: dsmash works similarly with (128, 75) (I'm just going to use (x,y) coordinates in the obvious way for the sake of typing less henceforth).

edit 2: you can also have Nana alone dsmash if you're initially holding (128,75) and switch to something much smaller vertically; (128, 7) is what I observed and I haven't checked anything else yet. I'd assume you could get Nana to usmash alone in a similar way (or jump alone with the regular joystick, or C-stick OoS).

edit 3: It looks like the C-stick behavior is that (128,y) yields a Popo dsmash for any value of y less than or equal to 75 and a Nana dsmash for any value less than or equal to 74. Probably similar for usmash.

edit 4: behavior is similar horizontally; (192,128) yields Popo fsmashes to the right, (193, 128) yields Nana fsmashes to the right.

last edit for this post: I should mention that you don't need to worry about how quickly you're moving the C-stick, which is a concern with the left joystick.

I've noticed c-stick oddities before (solo smashes as well as ICs performing two different smashes) but could never consistently recreate it. Can't believe I'm just seeing this now, good work.

There's another easy way to instantly have Nana solo smash--input smash with the c-stick and simultaneously dash backwards Popo. I know it works with at least f-smash and it's easy to perform.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't see an easy way of having Nana blizzard on her own, but usmash on her own is definitely doable. The closest thing to an isolated Nana blizzard I'm aware of is jump desynch -> wavedash down -> Nana blizzard during the WD landing lag, which is very doable with the usmash calibration. That's the one I mostly dabble in nowadays, and the only one I'd feel comfortable using in tourney right now. I like it since I can get a lot of mileage off the jump desynch without even needing to move the C-stick at all, which can prevent a lot of undesirable side effects that come with moving the C-stick during this, e.g. it not moving back to quite the same position afterwards. FWIW, I don't think that's much of an issue with barely used controllers, though. I have a new white smash controller that I intentionally use rarely for the sake of keeping the C-stick rigid, and everything works swimmingly with it. I would have used it with the usmash calibration against certain opponents at Apex if my bracket worked out a little differently.

On a different note, I am reconsidering using the dsmash calibration for some things. The usmash calibration makes shielding weird and difficult, which heavily limits the MUs I'd consider it in, but the dsmash one doesn't have that issue, although it makes grabs weird and doesn't open up as many desynch options as the usmash calibration. I also plan on finding new calibrations that could yield other desynchs soon, some of which I can envision being pretty good.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I don't know if this has been mentioned anywhere, but the sensitivity desynch also works horizontally on the control stick. It's possible to make only Popo dash, while Nana stands in place. This variation of the desynch allows you to input any move for Nana immediately out of stand in place. I can't do it consistently yet, so I've only attempted c-stick smashes, but I don't see any reason Blizzard/Ice Block wouldn't be possible. You can also cancel Popo's dash with shield if you don't actually want to move forward.

Edit: I've gotten it to work with Blizzard. Conveniently, you can get Popo to dash by flicking the control stick very slightly above one of the "bottom corner" notches (difficult but possible). If you immediately rotate downward into the notch, Nana will crouch, and you can perform Blizzard without affecting Popo. I haven't tested shielding yet, but I believe that this angle allows you to shield without spotdodging, so theoretically you could instantaneously make Popo shield and Nana blizzard out of any grounded position.

Update: I've gotten instant shield + Blizzard to work, both in frame by frame mode and in real time. It's a pretty subtle movement, but I think it's worth learning as it might be the fastest and least telegraphed way to have Nana desynch directly into a Blizzard.

 

[Kyu Puff]

 

[Smog]

I think this may all just be my controller being a few degrees different or the shape is different.
I have an orange spice top that is pretty old, and my circuit board is a new sm4sh controller

The controller that works is degrees the top left notch of the c-stick 62,183 and the top most notch is 133,211

My other controller is top left notch 64,194 and top most 125,218

It'll probably not be able to do any of these things once it gets worn in more
Alright so I was practicing shield dropping and kept having both spot dodge or 1 spot dodge and 1 fall through. So I did it on the ground to see and popo spot dodged and nana stayed in shield. I used Axe's shield drop method. I can do this desync very consistently.

or then or then or Sorry about the video. I edited it too close, but you can see what happens.

I can do this one with all 3 of my controllers.

This is pretty much just a possibly safer option than up-b OoS I believe. It works in the same way only Popo spot dodges you have more control over nana.

I then thought about the jump desync and the c-stick smash attacks

or then or then or

Now how can we get the c-stick fully left or right without triggering a smash attack?
I do realize it is currently as useful as the roll desync, but as long as the c-stick is fully left or right, you can do it. Rolling was just an example of it.

You can also do this with holding then going or . So you can do AC U-air hold up and then upsmash to desync

I you can AC bair hold or even when you hit the ground then go to or and boom
You can also


Both of those techniques I can get already about 90% of the time.

Also. When I input or exactly, nothing happens, or only popo smashes. If I wiggle my finger just a tiny bit only popo smashes whether it be u-smash or f-smash. It is hard to do, but I feel it can be mastered pretty more so than other strategies. Unless this is just my controller being super good for this desync

I have found a fool proof way of making only nana smash.

So then all I am doing is over and over and she keeps smashing.

I think this may all just be my controller being a few degrees different or the shape is different.

 

[DerfMidWest]

So theoretically it's possible to have Popo wavedash backwards and Nana u-smash/blizzard from neutral? Sounds pretty broken if anybody could figure out how to execute it consistently.

Oh I just saw this now and had a thing.
Out of wd back, you can do an empty pivot and have nana jump and blizzard out of her run stop animation and popo won't do anything.

You can also have nana jc usmash if you continue dashing forward instead of empty pivot (so basically just the 2 dash dd desync) , but you can shield stop really quickly so that you don't go very far from nana.

So neither of these are as fast as the jump desync, but they are much easier to be consistent with, and I've been using both of then a fair amount lately.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Just another cool thing (solo jump OoS -> Blizzard -> Nana Blizzard):

Unfortunately you can't keep shielding with Nana, because she does a turnaround Blizzard as soon as Popo touches the ground.

 

[Sieghart]

Just wanted to point out, just in case anyone cared, that I figured out the "nana only smash". As far as I know it only actually works with usmash. Let me try to break this down in an understandable manner:

Popo Up-Smashes by himself: Get the C-Stick in this () position and ride the notch to its end (). It seem that this needs to be done from edge to edge in regards to the notches.

Nana Up-Smashes by herself: Get the C-Stick in this () position and ride the notch to its end (). Seemingly needs to be done edge to edge like the above.

It's also worth noting that how you get the C-Stick into the prerequisite position is completely irrelevant. It's got nothing to do with buffering as the entire point is to get it there, not to use a move. In other words, you can dash and move your C-Stick into position during said dash if you so pleased. It's not really a tradition desync since you don't buffer anything and it seems more like one of those clever stick manipulation tricks like angling shield to make shield dropping easier or doing the 10-frame quarter circle pivot.

Here's a video to prove I did it:

I made sure to take ample time between repetitions so that you can all tell it's legit and not just me doing something completely different. It's also worth noting that the Nana Up-Smash is infinitely easier because doing the motion in reverse does not trigger any smash attacks so long as you don't go messing with other notches. It seems its a matter of which direction you're moving in. It also seems that the Nana Up-Smash notch is largely some sort of deadzone so it's extremely easy to repeat it over and over without doing anything else. Popo Up-Smash runs the risk of F-Smashing if you go too back down the notch which is why in my video you'll see the I use a dash to reset back to the starting position between each Popo Up-Smash. The walking in between Nana Up-Smashes is just me making it easier to tell that there are no shenanigans on my part, since you don't run the risk of doing any other smash attacks by going back and forth along the notch you can just reset to Nana's starting position during the Up-Smash if you so please.

EDIT: Not too sure about the exact notch positions anymore to be quite frank but what I explained should give you guys enough to work with to find something more exact regardless. I don't have much experience in stuff like this but I did what I could.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

As far as I know it only actually works with usmash.

It works with every smash.

 

[Sieghart]

It works with every smash.

Thanks for the clarification, then. Was this previously known before Smog posted and I tested more and is a there a better explanation out there than mine? If so I'd love to read it and see how close I was.

 

[Smog]

Ive realized even though we can almost get it decently consistently in practice, doing it in real matches is almost dumb. There are better options you can do because of the slight chance what you wanted to happen doesnt happen.