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New Move Sets? PikaPika Pikachu

kirbykid

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Like Mario, Pikachu has pioneered and dominated it’s own place in the world. I find it funny that whenever journalists and annalists talk about highest selling games of all time, they conveniently leave out the Pokemon games. Topping the charts as most logged in games using the NintendoWifi service, people all around the world connect with these pocket sized creatures on a cultural level. Nintendo gave Sakurai complete creative freedom over Brawl with only one condition (or should I say four?). Mario, Link, Kirby, and Pikachu had to be returning characters. We have to respect the little yellow guy for consistently bringing in millions for Nintendo. He’s very important to Nintendo. So important, that Sakurai made him low tier in Melee? Something isn’t right here. It’s that time again.
<p align="center"> <img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/sad_pikachu_by_miyayoshi.jpg" /></p>
Pikachu is a Pokemon. Pokemon games are traditionally RPG’s. This means that Pikachu has a slew of moves available for fighting moves in Smash. <a href="http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/025.shtml">Check them out here</a>. Wow. That’s a lot. Somehow, Sakurai and team have picked only four moves to best represent Pikachu.

But before I go into detail on his moves, I wanted to address a larger problem with this character. In order to remain Pika-like, Pikachu had to be a small sized character. Unfortunately, small size generally means small range and power. Though many of Pikachu’s A moves are quite unique and versatile, there’s definitely a lack of flow between Pikachu’s moves. Pikachu is an electric mouse. Most of his uniqueness comes from his electric attacks. In the TV series and games, Pikachu can run out of electricity or “stamina.” This implies that Pikachu draws his energy for all his electric moves from a single source: the two small red electric pouches on his cheeks. Sakurai has already implemented a “stamina” system for one of our new Brawl attendees and I believe a similar approach needs to be taken for Pikachu.<!--more-->

<img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/pikachu_by_psychoartist1101.gif" alt="pikachu" height="317" width="342" />

Pikachu’s electricity (as well as all electric attacks in the game) should have the elemental effect of electricity. Because organic muscles use electric impulses to contract, when hit by electricity, your muscles would cause you to seize/scrunch up (almost into a ball). Surely, this should translate into an inability for opponents to DI as effectively when hit by an electric attack. In effect, being hit by electricity in Smash should enable a temporary paralysis. Likewise, electric attacks should have little knockback. This would make sense with Pikachu’s projectile compared to Captain Falcon’s Knee. Pikachu’s electric projectile has (virtually) no mass and should only cause the opponent to seize-up for a moment. However, the knee causes opponent to seize-up, and there’s also the physical attack behind it making it quite deadly. Now for the moves.

<strong>Thunder Jolt</strong>: It’s a projectile that moves at medium speed. When it hits opponents it causes a slight jolting stun. On the ground the electricity bounces. In the air, it travels in a straight diagonal line. Because of the slow speed and trajectory options, this move is hard to aim. Also, because Pikachu can’t cancel or spam this attack, its uses dwindle. And finally, it doesn’t set up into Pikachu’s other attacks well because of Pikachu’s low speed and the lag from launching the attack. What can be done?
<ul>
<li>I think this attack needs to have 2 parts. 1) Charge. 2) Release. Have you noticed that all the top and high tier characters can cancel or store the “charge” for their projectiles? It’s little things like this that help make those characters good.</li>
<li>1) CHARGE: Hold down the button; Pikachu stores energy. Pikachu should be able to store three levels (similar to Mr.Game&amp;Watch’s three bucket levels). How quickly Pikachu can charge is a matter of overall game balance. So we’ll move on.</li>
<li>2) RELEASE: Depending on the charge, Pikachu can release a variety of attacks. Thunder Jolt would be the slowest and have the least amount of stun. Then Thunder Wave: A short shockwave of energy that travels out in a bubble to about twice the size of Pikachu’s shield. This attack would paralyze opponents for much longer than the jolt, allowing Pikachu to set up other attacks. Keep in mind, the charged used up for this attack would leave Pikachu’s other electric attacks weaker. In this way, Pikachu can’t freeze you, and then kill you with a really strong electric attack. From this point, it’s easy to imagine additional attacks: Discharge. Thunder bolt. However, it would also be interesting if Pikachu could power up his other moves, even A moves, with the Charge.</li>
</ul>
<strong>Thunder: </strong>As part of the paltry list of Smash projectiles that attack up, Thunder is probably the most powerful. A cloud appears and ushers forth a bolt of lightening that never stops until hits the ground or Pikachu. If it does hit Pikachu, there’s an explosion of electricity, and anyone nearby is blasted. Unfortunately, hit or miss, Pikachu has a lot of lag from this attack. This is understandable. Jumping up and around on platforms is how players can position themselves around the stage and around opponents. If you’ve seen the way I fight with Ness, you would understand how deadly up projectiles are. So, in Pikachu’s case, this super strong up projectile had to be balanced. Too bad, it was limited too much.
<ul>
<li>I like the idea of an ominous cloud hovering around as Pikachu feeds it with energy until finally it erupts. What if the cloud could be summoned and charged before the thunder strikes so Pikachu wouldn’t have so much lag.</li>
<li>I never liked how the actual thunder bolt had multiple hit boxes. It needs to be a solid column of energy that greatly paralyzes opponents. If enemies are in the air, the electric bolt should seek them as it tries to find the shortest path to the ground. If opponents get shocked in the air, they would fall straight down unable to move.</li>
<li>The electric explosion around Pikachu should be as strong as the knee or stronger. It should operate under the new havok bomb explosion physics too.</li>
<li>If you think this move is too good, well… good! I want to make this move good enough that Pikachu can only use it a few times before all his stamina is used up. Just like in the game, Thunder was a strong move that could be used very few times. Spamming would not be advised.</li>
</ul>
<strong>Skull Bash:</strong> This move helps Pikachu recover. Like Mario’s Tornado, it’s good for little else. It’s not that strong, and it requires some charge which only increases Pikachu’s lag. It can be stopped easily with attacks or grabs. It’s easy to dodge. I would much rather have Double Team or Agility, but that’s not the name of the game. We have to work with what we have. Creative limitations are what shape the mind. So let’s get shaping.
<ul>
<li>Remember when I said that Pikachu’s release could be used with other attacks. While charging the skull bash, it would be interesting if Pikachu could use any stored up charge to perform a move called Discharge. Because using the move in this way would be a defensive countermeasure, Discharge (as the name implies) would bring all of Pikachu’s charge levels back to zero. Discharge would release a quick burst of energy surrounding Pikachu to push opponents away. Think of the push like the F.L.U.D.D but with much smaller range.</li>
<li>Pikachu shoud have unflinching/super armor while flying at enemies. The more players charge up skull bash, the more super armor they get, the faster they fly, and the more damage they could do. This is a good trade off because it allows Pikachu to be aggressive with the attack.</li>
<li>Because the attack can still be easily dodged by jumping, I believe this attack should have the added bonus of being able to push opponents back even if they’re shielding. Similar to how Mario’s cape works through shields, this move would send opponents sliding back with stun but no damage. This would prevent easy defensive counters, and it would bring a little terror into the move.</li>
</ul>
<strong>Quick Attack:</strong> It’s quick. But as an attack, it falls short. One of the single most versatile recovery moves in the game, what can be done to make it better? I have a gripe against teleporting or fast recovery moves. I understand how Sakurai tried to balance recovery moves. Each player had to be balanced against how their recovery move attacks, how far they move, how quickly they move, how much lag they have before and after, and how invincible they are while doing it. Mewtwo and Zelda have the longest teleports. Because they can’t inflict any damage while recovering, their distances, speeds, and lag times are very low. Fox’s recovery is very long and very versatile. He can point it in 16 directions! To balance this ability, Fox has to charge the up B before launching off. The damage and knockback done with this move is minimal. Unfortunately, the developers couldn’t see that Fox’s speed and power allow him to combo after his Up+B hits opponents. If this wasn’t enough of an oversight, Fox has (magical) flames that protect him when charging. Clearly the balance isn’t with Fox. With Falco, his recovery move has some seriously killing potential. So, in theory, they balance it with a shorter distance and no (magical flames) when charging. This is why we can beat him up so easily, right? Unfortunately, both Fox and Falco have illusions. These moves are invincible in some ways, fast, variable (they can be shortened), and Fox can combo out of it while Falco’s can kill you off the edge. These characters have terribly unbalanced recoveries. For the record, Marth, Sheik, Samus, Peach, and Jigglypuff break the recovery rules too. (Do you wonder why they’re at the top of the tier list?)
<ul>
<li>Just like in the RPG’s quick attack is weak. If it were any stronger, it would be Volt Tackle (and we all know what happened to that move). This move is good, and follows the rules. What can I say? [STAMP]</li>
</ul>
What?! <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=ozZ4ZM5S6Hg">Pikachu’s evolving</a>.
<p align="center"> <img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/pikachu_by_viittaperkele.jpg" height="321" width="372" /></p>
“Pika-HIGH TIER!” Yeah, pretty much.
 

Sariku

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I don't get why People say Pikachu was horrible in Melee. Yes, maybe alittle light, but otherwise he can stack up with characaters in the High Tier section.

Some of his moves have major lag, but just don't use them. I say Pikachu should still be High Tier... Sorry, I sound kinda n00bish but being on a Wii I dont' wanna type alot.
 

PilotEvan

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I am very glad that you didn't vouch to change Quick Attack. Of all Pikachu's special moves, I too always thought it was the most balanced and best executed.
 

LaniusShrike

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That all sounds lovely and all, except that I do think Quick Attack has one big failing- it takes way too long to actually recover after using the move. Often pikachu barely has to be edge guarded against, as when he launches back you can easily just wait on the ground, grab him and give him the heave-ho off the stage again. Ideally, it'd be an attack you can use and then quickly attack again, since... well, it's supposed to be a quick attack.

Your other alterations seem rather interesting, and would make Pika's gameplay much more entertaining yet practical.
 

Homelessvagrant

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Master Hand is a nobody and I completely agree with you Kirbykid. Skull bash should be Fludded with a better move (has he been shown using it yet, I hope not). I hope pika is high tier next game. The first two pics were cool two.

I think pikachu would be cool if he were say emo. (I don't support emoism but Pikachu would be the perfect emo pokemon).
 

Shadow_Kirby

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ya, it WOULD be cool if pikachu kicked a lot more ***. oh, but my fastest time for beating master hand is with pickachu.
.
.
oh and im on a wii too, lol.:chuckle:
Me too!!
and have been since the day I signed up for the original website.....

Pikachu should have Double-edge or something..

Homeless long time no see......
 

Homelessvagrant

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Iron tail could really be cool. It could be laggy (but not by much) while the tail glows and then pikachu quickly flicks he tail forward then down. It could be a meteor smash (we all know he needs one of those anyway).
 

Shadow_Kirby

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Iron Tail

I think it could be kinda like Kirby's hammer it would glow doing a very small amount of damage to oppenents behind him, then swiping forward it would give them a good smack....
In air he could spin around while doing Iron tail.....
 

Shadow_Kirby

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You are not giving Pika a used Kirby move (no matter how much I like the pink blob). And Pika needs another Meteor smash (besides The Foot stool jump).
Well I'm hoping Kirby's Hammer is replaced so it would only belong to Pikachu...

Meteor Smash- why Iron Tail?
Anyway I later mentioned the possibilty of double-edge which is quicker and stronger than skull bash...
And skull bash is supposed to have lag.
 

Someone1

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This is waaaaay off topic, but wouldn't it be great (in VS matches) if you could set individual variables to different players/CPUs? Like you could set different stocks, different sizes, different jumping heights, different weights, different attack-strengths... the possibilities are infinite. This almost undoubtedly won't be in brawl though.
 

Shadow_Kirby

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Well ok sounds cool....
Off topic-
I had a dream last night that I was playing Brawl and I chose to play survival mode and make it through about 21 battles and then it goes to a cutscene inside a space ship and Fox is running at me (Kirby) and then a lazer fires and takes down Fox and Wolf falls from the ceiling and we start to fight.....
Yeah kinda random.....

Pikachu should have double team that would make for a fun battle

I'm so blind! I just noticed skarmory on the flying stage and I officially accept the Drifloon theory!
Lucario for brawl!
Shadow Kirby signing off....
 

Homelessvagrant

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Well I'm hoping Kirby's Hammer is replaced so it would only belong to Pikachu...

Meteor Smash- why Iron Tail?
Anyway I later mentioned the possibilty of double-edge which is quicker and stronger than skull bash...
And skull bash is supposed to have lag.
Because none of his other moves are meteor worthy and Iron tail if it struck forward and down would first knock the player down and then being metallic (which equals hard) would be Pika's hardest hitting attack making it smash meteor worthy. double edge does damage to both players and being a normal attack doesn't seem very appealing. I just want skull bash to die.
 

MetaKnight'sSword

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they could probably replace Skull Bash with a "Thunder Wave" move, paralyzing opponets and breifly damaging then (^^)v



also to one who started this thread and said that Pikachu should run out of electricity....that would be a little bit too much like the anime......
 

Burning Lava

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I just gotta say, that you might have your wishes granted with Pikachu's ability to charge his neutral B special.

I've said it before, but it looks to me like in the first trailer, Pikachu flickers for a moment before sending out his special. It might just be how he looks during the animation lag preceding the actual "hit-box projection," but it could very well be the first tiny bit of a charge.

Watch this HD version:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/10606.html.
It's kind of close-up on Pikachu, so you won't miss it.
 

kirbykid

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What does RPG stand for and it's been a while since I heard from you, speed demon fox_.
RPG = Role Playing Game. Though this definition might sound a little too generic, the term applies to those types of games where damage and health are the result of equations and calculation. In other words, you hit them and numbers pop up. These games generally have different kinds of STATs and lots of customization.
 

Sneaky 2.0

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You forgot the funny hidden picture comments! :mad: You're Kirbykid, not Kirby King!
 

cloudz

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you give fox's recovery a lot of credit...


HEs got one of the easiet to edge guard against. almost anything goes through his "wall of flames"
 

greenblob

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Falco has a good recovery? I'd say he has one of the worst in the game. Fox and Marth's aren't that great either.

Anyways, I don't really like the limited Thunder range. Back in Smash 64 you could thunder-spike opponents with a quick up smash into thunder, which could let you kill up to 30-40% earlier. I'd love to see this back. It was a great and flashy way to end your combos.
 

kirbykid

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Falco has a good recovery? I'd say he has one of the worst in the game. Fox and Marth's aren't that great either.

Anyways, I don't really like the limited Thunder range. Back in Smash 64 you could thunder-spike opponents with a quick up smash into thunder, which could let you kill up to 30-40% earlier. I'd love to see this back. It was a great and flashy way to end your combos.
Let's not (kirby)Kid ourselves.

Those tiers still have good recoveries.

Worst in the game? I laugh. Kirby and Gannondorf have some of the worst recoveries. Options = good recovery. Falco has a lot of options compared to Kirby and Gdorf. Lets get real.

Also, Marth's is really good. You have to consider how their moves work with everything else they can do as a character. Have you seen M2K tear up off the edge cause Marths recovery is so fast and accurate? I saw him nearly beat a whole crew by himself.
 

greenblob

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http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=94647

I know that this isn't without flaws, but I agree with most of it. Currently Marth is at the bottom of Low, Sheik is one above Marth, Fox is mid, and Falco is 3rd worst.

Marth is screwed if you manage to hit him out of his up B (or after his up B before he lands), needs specific spacing to sweetspot (and therefore is predictable), doesn't get so much distance in the first place, and, along with Sheik,has a laggy landing animation.
The light shield recovery also kills Marth's sweetspotting, and his edge tech sucks.

There are many attacks that can out-prioritize or trade hits with the Firefox. Also, the "magical flames" can't protect against most aerial edgeguards. The illusion has crappy priority.
Falco's is like Fox's, except with less distance. And Falco is pretty much screwed if he's hit once due to his falling speed.

Kirby is one below Fox and Ganondorf is at the top of high tier.
 

kirbykid

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http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=94647

I know that this isn't without flaws, but I agree with most of it. Currently Marth is at the bottom of Low, Sheik is one above Marth, Fox is mid, and Falco is 3rd worst.

Marth is screwed if you manage to hit him out of his up B (or after his up B before he lands), needs specific spacing to sweetspot (and therefore is predictable), doesn't get so much distance in the first place, and, along with Sheik,has a laggy landing animation.
The light shield recovery also kills Marth's sweetspotting, and his edge tech sucks.

There are many attacks that can out-prioritize or trade hits with the Firefox. Also, the "magical flames" can't protect against most aerial edgeguards. The illusion has crappy priority.
Falco's is like Fox's, except with less distance. And Falco is pretty much screwed if he's hit once due to his falling speed.

Kirby is one below Fox and Ganondorf is at the top of high tier.
Because Kirby isn't at the bottom, that list fails.
What did they base their rankings on? Gannondorf HIGH TIER? :laugh:

If he does one warlock kick he's a gonner. Otherwise, he's dead anyway.

Unless someone can seriously explain that list, I'm going to discount it completely.
 

Homelessvagrant

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So who's on top of the b attack tier list surely not Luigi who's on top of the Taunt tier list three steps above the worst in Shield rolling tier list in which Ganondorf rules all.

(If people can't see the sarcasm then their stupid)=_=
 

Homelessvagrant

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wow homeless you are really like pokemon
Do you mean I remind you of pokemon or that I just really like pokemon? :)
I do indeed like the pokes. I actually was part of the poke hate group back a while ago, when dissing pika was in. That was until I realized it all was for naught and that the poke games themselves were pretty cool. I understand that people hate it because of the anime and the hype. I dislike the anime like a Legend of Zelda fan hates the LOZ cartoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yYohAySKm4&mode=related&search=

This show reaks of adult induinda.........and lameness

But this ones better, I'm sorry Zelda fans I mean no direspect, I'm just trying to relate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eh31KEa-CA&mode=related&search=

Yeah, I'd say pokemon is my second favorite series next to Smash bros and I have the mindset to specialize Pokemon Trainer in brawl (Mainly squirtle if possible). I fully support the Gba games and a few Console games like pokemon snap and Coloseum (only because it has wifi) but not Stadium (oh that game was horrible). I think pokemon has a lot of untapped potential (there's more they could do with the series, expecially the Console games [when are we going to get a full console poke quest?]). Still please don't don't take me as an obsessed fanboy or anything. It's just a fun game that's all. Oh and Squirtle's awesome. Sorry I got of subject.
 

greenblob

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Perhaps you're thinking Captain Falcon. Ganon's recovery isn't bad at all. The horizontal distance is very good. Also, he's pretty easy to edge-tech with.

Kirby's recovery is very similar to Marth's, except he gets much more distance, he's not as screwed if he doesn't sweetspot, and it's a bit slower.
Distance is probably why Kirby is middle. Although his up B is vulnerable, he doesn't need it much of the time and he can counter edgeguards with a well placed aerial, something not very many characters can do due to their limited distance.
 

kirbykid

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Perhaps you're thinking Captain Falcon. Ganon's recovery isn't bad at all. The horizontal distance is very good. Also, he's pretty easy to edge-tech with.

Kirby's recovery is very similar to Marth's, except he gets much more distance, he's not as screwed if he doesn't sweetspot, and it's a bit slower.
Distance is probably why Kirby is middle. Although his up B is vulnerable, he doesn't need it much of the time and he can counter edgeguards with a well placed aerial, something not very many characters can do due to their limited distance.


This is the kind of ridiculous "theory battling" that never holds up in real matches. You're talking to the most experienced Kirby player in the world. When I say his recovery is bad, I mean it.

You should have seen me crush all the other little Kirby's at the OC3. You say well placed aerial? Which aerial exactly? The one with practically no range, knockback, or priority? You mean all of Kirby's Aerials.

It doesn't matter how many jumps Kirby has. He doesn't have the speed or the moves to back them up. And up B is sooo bad. You can beat it down with neutral a punches. That's ridiculous.

Gannon only has a few options. Warlock Kick: if he does, it makes him extremely predictable and killable. Everything else is a pathetic mind game. Stand your ground and cover the edge.

Oh, and Kirby is screwed anyway. He doesn't really have a sweet spot.
 

feelxmyxwrath

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http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=94647

I know that this isn't without flaws, but I agree with most of it. Currently Marth is at the bottom of Low, Sheik is one above Marth, Fox is mid, and Falco is 3rd worst.

Marth is screwed if you manage to hit him out of his up B (or after his up B before he lands), needs specific spacing to sweetspot (and therefore is predictable), doesn't get so much distance in the first place, and, along with Sheik,has a laggy landing animation.
The light shield recovery also kills Marth's sweetspotting, and his edge tech sucks.

There are many attacks that can out-prioritize or trade hits with the Firefox. Also, the "magical flames" can't protect against most aerial edgeguards. The illusion has crappy priority.
Falco's is like Fox's, except with less distance. And Falco is pretty much screwed if he's hit once due to his falling speed.

Kirby is one below Fox and Ganondorf is at the top of high tier.
LOL! Gannondorf = bottom tier fox and falco = top tiers Marth = VERY high
 
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