New Marth player needing help w/Fox.

[verditude]

Before you redirect me to some guide, note this: I am a casual player, and I can't do some of the techs like pivoting or WDing yet. I got Melee this last week, so bear with me.

Anyway, my brother plays Fox, and is somehow always able to beat me. He doesn't use any advanced techs (I use a couple, like l-cancel) and he still beats me almost all the time. I have a couple questions:

1. Can I chaingrab him with the upthrow from 0? About how high can I get his damage before he can jump out? What should I follow up with?

2. He won't try to sweetspot the ledge. What is the best move to hit him out of his Firefox?

3. Can I shield grab him out of his dash attack?

4. What's my best method of approach? I was thinking dash, jump, down air, l cancel, grab. Or for mindgames, I could run close and immediately Counter in anticipation of a forward smash.

Answers will be much appreciated.

 

[ComboTurtle]

Before you redirect me to some guide, note this: I am a casual player, and I can't do some of the techs like pivoting or WDing yet. I got Melee this last week, so bear with me.

Anyway, my brother plays Fox, and is somehow always able to beat me. He doesn't use any advanced techs (I use a couple, like l-cancel) and he still beats me almost all the time. I have a couple questions:

1. Can I chaingrab him with the upthrow from 0? About how high can I get his damage before he can jump out? What should I follow up with?

2. He won't try to sweetspot the ledge. What is the best move to hit him out of his Firefox?

3. Can I shield grab him out of his dash attack?

4. What's my best method of approach? I was thinking dash, jump, down air, l cancel, grab. Or for mindgames, I could run close and immediately Counter in anticipation of a forward smash.

Answers will be much appreciated.

Ok, im not the best marth player here, but i do have a fair amount of experience in the matchup

1. yes u can i like to forward throw first and then regrab just follow the di and grab accordingly, u can start pivot grabbing from 23% iirc at about 30% or more depending on di you either wanna utilt to regrab or utilt -> utilt either way you want the whole thing to end in a tipper and a death or an easy edge gaurd.

2. if he's below the stage and hes not going to sweet spot it u can counter and then follow up by jumping off with either a fair or reverse up b, if u know where he's going to go and hes not sweetspotting the ledge just either forward smash or if u dont know where hes going u can try to jab and then if he goes up in the air to psych u out u can use the fsmash after the jab, while he's falling.

3. depends where he finishes after it, if hes in front of you sure, if not i think your options include a sh dair out of shield or roll away... im not entirely sure about this one.

4. sh retreating fairs work well in the match up, downtilts, mindgame into grabs counter is a **** way to approach and will get u punished same with your l cancelled dair idea. just try to space some nice fairs and throw in some good down tilts and grabs, you should be fine.


i hope i helped, i dont normally give advice so i hope it helped

 

[kenkowtow]

Before you redirect me to some guide, note this: I am a casual player, and I can't do some of the techs like pivoting or WDing yet. I got Melee this last week, so bear with me.

Anyway, my brother plays Fox, and is somehow always able to beat me. He doesn't use any advanced techs (I use a couple, like l-cancel) and he still beats me almost all the time. I have a couple questions:

1. Can I chaingrab him with the upthrow from 0? About how high can I get his damage before he can jump out? What should I follow up with?

2. He won't try to sweetspot the ledge. What is the best move to hit him out of his Firefox?

3. Can I shield grab him out of his dash attack?

4. What's my best method of approach? I was thinking dash, jump, down air, l cancel, grab. Or for mindgames, I could run close and immediately Counter in anticipation of a forward smash.

Answers will be much appreciated.

OK well if you definatly want to get super better do something like what guy above me. But if it's not like the end of the world and you only want to be able to beat your brother (without learning pivot timing, SHFFLC, etc (which really are not too hard to learn)) then you may want to follow my advice.

1. Don't really bother too much with chaingrabbing. Chaingrab sure but only until about ~25% and then u-tilt or something. Chaingrab again until 40-50%ish depending on which way they fall then u-tilt.

2. The simple edgeguard solution: F-Smash or Shieldbreaker. If he comes from above then move to him and then smash.

3. 9 times out of 10 you will be able to. If your brother is smart he will catch onto this and learn to dash grab instead of dash attack, so make sure you have something in your sleeve in that occasion.

4. As far as your BEST approach... Assuming you don't learn to SHFFLC or Wavedash... Run -> crouch -> d-tilt. Or you could full jump and then attack, mix it in with a double jump and then fastfall f-air (full jump first and then before reaching fox jump again).

Well I hope I didn't sound evil or anything... I honestly don't mean to demean you, but now that I read over my post it seems mean -.-.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

okay... if they dont DI or react fast enough or either you can chain your first two fthrows, but they DO have time to jab or roll.

until you get really confident with your skills, stick to fsmash and dtilt for edgeguarding. its not fancy but it gets **** done.

if he isnt doing adv techs, you can shield grab everything he has.

dont approach with dair... if you want to approach use spaced fair. if you tip it you can run it and grab before he falls then combo that way, or get another fair to utilt or fsmash.

 

[verditude]

Another question: Which moves use the sweetspot? I know Fsmash and his aerials do but what about his specials? Is it possible to sweetspot a dolphin slash, for instance?

Oh, and thanks for the responses.

EDIT: One more thing. What's the best way to do a "short hop double fair"? Should I use the C stick or the A button? And is this still useful if I miss the L cancel? I still can't shuffl well, but this tech sounds useful given I don't have to fastfall.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

all moves have tips b moves are harder to notice but they do.

 

[ComboTurtle]

do whatever feels right for you for the double fair, i use a for the first then c stick for the second...


and dude just l2 cancel.

 

[verditude]

Thanks for all the help guys, I might as well give y'all an update. My bro plays really aggressively, that is, he doesn't really try to combo much, just shoots an attack in my direction whenever possible, usually a smash or an aerial. So I tried shield grabbing (thanks for the advice) and spamming Counter, and it worked. I play him about even now.

My question is this: What can I do out of a grounded Counter at mid to low damage?

 

[ComboTurtle]

stop spamming counter... ffs

 

[verditude]

Hey, it works. Why shouldn't I use it? True, there are ways to punish it, but my bro doesn't employ them. He never even ****ing grabs. Anyway, is there no way to combo out of a Counter?

 

[knightpraetor]

what combo turtle means..is that if you know he's going to attack you could just hit him instead of countering..after all if you know where he is and that he's about ot attack..it's pretty easy to predict what trajectory he will come in on...

and then you just swing ol' New Jersey at him

and that should do nicely..better players use uptilt to interrupt careless approaches
n00b players use fsmash mostly..

mid players like me tend to use aerials because they are easier to aim, though they don't always combo as nicely as uptilt..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yea, dont use counter. if you think you are going to get hit it is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better to move away and punish his attack. even idiots catch on to counters.

 

[greenpika]

i use counters a lot... i feel sad...
anyway, they're rite, you shouldnt use too many counters, cuz marth's counter is alot worse than roys. counters are really good for edge guarding tho, especially for firefoxes. if you're bro is off the edge with a firefox, jump off and hit him with a bair, or d-tilt him if you have really good timing. i love d-tilt firefoxes, its so fun to just watch them fall...
if he's below you, stand back a little and start chargin your b. if he goes above you, predict where he's going to fall and either do a uair or a u-tilt. also try to start training your shffls.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Basically the thing with Counter is that it comes out in seven frames, whereas the fair and jab come out in four. This means that not only will you be able to interrupt them more consistently with the fair or jab, but you can also combo better.

I personally like approaching with the nair, but you can do that or the fair or even grab. I'm pretty sure Emblem Lord wrote a guide to approaching, should take a look at that.

Ummm... yeah if he doesn't sweetspot the Firefox, you can just Counter. It's not as effective as the fsmash, but it's safe and really funny.

 

[DAVO]

For short hop double fair I use the Z button for the first attack and if hes near me i use the c stick to stop moving forward , if hes a little further I continue using the z button or the A button
TIP: short hop double fairs dont need lots of speed , they need timing and rythm ( much like the dancing blades) if you press the button to early after the first fair it will not do anything and you wont be able to do it , if you press it to late either you make a very incomplete and not very useful fair , or you just land.
Good luck with your marth

 

[AIDS]

#1 chain grab works till 30 %, after that you can use Utilts remember tip a Utilt if the player DI's infront of you he will go dtraight up so he will always be behind you, or above, turn around with ur Utilts when you wish to keep him center, also in the middle of your chain throw do a downthrow and Fsmash him, instinct say it is so hard to make that tech when you are reflexing to a chain throw, so he will most likly miss the tech and it should be a tip or close to a tip around 20-30ish

#2 it is almost imposable to sweet spot and escape this technique go CLOSE to the edge like as close as you can and do a counter, as fox gets hit go off the edge and do a jump Fair(non tip as close to the handle as you can) and then recover and edge hog, if fox catches on and goes to low for you to get the Fair reverse up B and grab the edge and edge hog him, if you are good the reverse up B will hit.

#3 ofcoarse! freakin abuse him if he does somthing that laggy!

#4 for an aproach do not do somthing laggy like Dair, you want stuff like well Spaces Fairs, Dash dance grab, a good dash dance is a long one, as long as you can with still making the dash dance continue.

anything you do not understand please PM me, but i assure these are the best and most consistant ways.