New (higher) tier list ranking?

[ohaiduhg]

Why is everyone talking about Marth and Falco? Wario is THIRD now. That seems so wrong.

Yeah look at all those matches. Every single one of them includes a Meta or Snake... or Wario. We definitely see DDD, Falco, and Diddy paling in comparison to all that WarioSpam.

I'm still on that ZSS will rise bandwagon, so will Pit. It surprised me that Pit was lower than ZSS, tbh.

 

[lil cj]

ZSS, Pit, and Sonic
Are the chosen ones
They will continue to move up
they have alot of potential and new things are being discovered everyday
They will be the ones to take down MK

 

[ohaiduhg]

It's like you stalk my posts and know that I main ZSS and my cousins main Pit and Sonic... and that I gave up Meta Knight.

Stalk a little harder because my Meta ***** all in his path and there is no way Pit nor Sonic can stop him. hahahahaha;D Pit is actually a lot of trouble for him. >_>

Idk but I think it was a fluke almost that Sonic got to mid-tier. He is just so awful and unusable. I think Link will be the one to take Meta down. Personally, I think ZSS vs Meta is even. Lern2SideBw/her

 

[FadedImage]

lol sonic.
I do not understand what anyone sees in him. he's got 10 of the same attack... lol

and it's not that Marth moves through the lasers any better than us, it's the fact that he actually has options when he's coming down on Falco AFTER he's over the lasers, we really don't.
And from what I've heard d3 vs. marth is close to even. it's a very momentum heavy match-up, whoever's got control is gonna ****.

d3 comparison to sheik is perfect. he raaapes so many cast members out of tourney viability it deserves s tier, because counting match-ups is what gets you higher tier.

ZSS will continue to move up, but she's gonna plateau pretty soon because no one is going to pick up ZSS to counter anyone unless we find a way to even up the mk match-up. (imo she'll be stuck at top of B or bottom of A)

 

[ohaiduhg]

lol sonic.
I do not understand what anyone sees in him. he's got 10 of the same attack... lol

and it's not that Marth moves through the lasers any better than us, it's the fact that he actually has options when he's coming down on Falco AFTER he's over the lasers, we really don't.
And from what I've heard d3 vs. marth is close to even. it's a very momentum heavy match-up, whoever's got control is gonna ****.

d3 comparison to sheik is perfect. he raaapes so many cast members out of tourney viability it deserves s tier, because counting match-ups is what gets you higher tier.

ZSS will continue to move up, but she's gonna plateau pretty soon because no one is going to pick up ZSS to counter anyone unless we find a way to even up the mk match-up. (imo she'll be stuck at top of B or bottom of A)

Dash Attack is Falco's worst nightmare. If you learn to get in Falco's face with Neutral B he can't do much. If he lazers from that close the cooling lag messes him up and if he shinekicks at that point the cooling lag will REALLY mess him up. Her NeutB is short range and the reflector doesn't give it a bounce back boost. If you know how to space yourself right Falco gets screwed over big time.

 

[JigglyPunch]

I say mid-bottom B tier.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why are you guys putting her so low? ZSS only has four bad matchups. She's got a few 45:55s (Diddy Kong) but her worst ones are Falco, Luigi, Sheik, and MK. And a lot of you disagree with me over Sheik.

 

[Nefarious B]

I just want to hear the rationale versus Sheik, I don't think you've ever explained why you think it's bad. The others I can see, though IMO if you know the luigi matchup (don't let him get off his kill moves) it is 50:50.

 

[FadedImage]

imo Falco is her only serious bad match-up, everyone else is at maximum 40:60

but I think the reverse is almost true to, I don't think she's a heavy counter to anyone, maybe ROB and others that nobody cares about.

The thing about ZSS is pretty much all of her match-ups are **** close to even, some are slight disadvantage (most top tiers) and some are slight advantage (mid-high). In general, she belongs in high tier because she simply can't overtake other top tier chars in their **** match-ups.

 

[ohaiduhg]

Why are you guys putting her so low? ZSS only has four bad matchups. She's got a few 45:55s (Diddy Kong) but her worst ones are Falco, Luigi, Sheik, and MK. And a lot of you disagree with me over Sheik.

And I would argue those aren't even bad for her at all. MK doesn't have a long range move. Falco gets DALocked to gimp or anything to gimp(BAir>Anything Falco has coming back at you from off the edge.) Luigi I don't get what he has over ZSS other than he can't be DALocked. Idk what Sheik has on ZSS, but Sheik is very gimpable as well.

ZSS is a gimping machine with Bair and knowing when to Dsmash recoveries with its bull****ingly good priority and range is just godly good.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, since I've been messing with dash locks my success rate vs Falco has increased dramatically. I don't think the matchup is anywhere near 30:70 anymore, closer to 40:60. In my friendlies vs. Bloo! today, each time I hit with Dazlock it was a stock. That's ****ing awesome, even if he did mess up off stage once.

The worst, very worst matchup is Sheik. That is by far our worst matchup nowadays IMO. We have no OOS game to speak of. We have a pseudo-OOS game I guess, but Sheik has the best shield pressure in the game and is the only character I'm afraid of being gimped by. It's just no contest, Sheik rocks us.

A lot of Sheik players say the matchup is even, I want to know what godly ZSS they're vsing because I can't win.

but I think the reverse is almost true to, I don't think she's a heavy counter to anyone, maybe ROB and others that nobody cares about.

ROB, ICs, and maybe King Dedede. Game and Watch is another one I don't think I can lose to. I don't know if we like, wreck him, but it's a **** good matchup for us.

We also have minor advantages (60:40 or 55:45s) on Kirby and Olimar, too, and arguably Snake. (I know you're not onboard, Faded lol)

 

[ph00tbag]

I just want to hear the rationale versus Sheik, I don't think you've ever explained why you think it's bad. The others I can see, though IMO if you know the luigi matchup (don't let him get off his kill moves) it is 50:50.

Sheik is the way she is because she doesn't have to get hit by your approaches, and you can't really do a whole lot about hers. She will hit you more than you hit her. Add to that the fact that she just seems to have a really good edgeguard game against ZSS.

I agree with you on the Luigi Match-up, though. You just have to play defensive and take your hits when you can. Luigi doesn't have a whole lot on your approach, and doesn't have very many good ways to approach you if you just shield through his rushdowns and wait for the nair on block. He also gets destroyed by comboing dash attack and jab x3. Plus, he has to be careful about using cyclone to recover.

 

[Hence]

The worst, very worst matchup is Sheik. That is by far our worst matchup nowadays IMO. We have no OOS game to speak of. We have a pseudo-OOS game I guess, but Sheik has the best shield pressure in the game and is the only character I'm afraid of being gimped by. It's just no contest, Sheik rocks us.

Diddy has the best sheild pressure in the game.

A lot of Sheik players say the matchup is even, I want to know what godly ZSS they're vsing because I can't win.

If you excessively use specials against Sheik or make obvious patterns in "spacing," you'll get wrecked. Your main problem, from what I've seen, is that you play against every character the same way. You need to actually adapt to situations, characters, and players to win in Brawl. Sheik is not at all difficult. Her only advantage is that she can F-Tilt lock us. Then again, we can easily SDI out and Down+B before she gets a follow up (U-Smash, N-Air, U-Tilt, etc.).

We also have minor advantages (60:40 or 55:45s) on Kirby and Olimar, too, and arguably Snake. (I know you're not onboard, Faded lol)

My matchup statistics:
Kirby: 70:30 ZSS
Olimar: 50:50
Snake 55:45 ZSS

I'll be making a type of matchup thread sometime today.

 

[sasook]

Personally, I think ZSS vs Meta is even. Lern2SideBw/her

Go watch Snakeee vs. M2k. All he did was the whip, and look how well that worked. >_>

lol sonic.
I do not understand what anyone sees in him. he's got 10 of the same attack... lol

Lol well, a good Sonic can be tough. Like that Malcom vs. Anther match someone posted in Snakeee's thread a while back.

d3 comparison to sheik is perfect. he raaapes so many cast members out of tourney viability it deserves s tier, because counting match-ups is what gets you higher tier.

^_^ ty sir.

MK doesn't have a long range move.

He doesn't need one, lol. He's dominated the game for the last year, why would he suddenly need one now?

Luigi I don't get what he has over ZSS other than he can't be DALocked.

An aerial game that rivals yours. Plus, fsmash and nair KO at scary low percents.

Add to that the fact that she just seems to have a really good edgeguard game against ZSS everyone.

She's known as the queen of gimping for a reason.

Her only advantage is that she can F-Tilt lock us. Then again, we can easily SDI out and Down+B before she gets a follow up (D-Smash, N-Air, U-Tilt, etc.)

No one should be hit by more than 2 ftilts.

 

[noradseven]

Don't forget about the weeges down B, its like the nado all over again.

Sheik is nasty because of her ground/air speed, alot of your standard tactics don't work against her d-tilt does quite some wonders though.

Im not very surprised about sonics placing I think he should drop 2-3 spots though and he probably will after people go ohh man he isn't as crappy as we though you play him, I already played sonic a good bit and beat alot of people, because they just went lol sonic. Then next thing you know they are at 130%, and got PS's into a f-smash.

How many of you actually play these characters you are talking about IRL consistently in our casual group which is **** huge, the only people we are really missing is like a good Yoshi player, because most of us got really good with 2-3 characters, and there is like 15-16 of us, with no overlapping mains.

Because you would really be surprised on some of the crazy **** other characters can do to people like lucas's down air into up B thunder smash combo on larger characters like Snake, Rob, DK and DDD.

 

[~ARES]

Last night, I played some matches against my brother (who plays SSBB a lot more casually than I do). I picked ZSS and he picked Sheik, and we both went in kind of blind--he never plays against Zero Suits and I have never seen a decent Sheik.

I was surprised at how much trouble he gave me, especially since I play a lot more than him. I'm probably just a noob, but my usual tactics didn't work well at all. I tried spacing with side-B, but he was always able to get a PS -> grab or PS -> dash. My zoning sucked more 'cuz of those needles, too. And whenever I was caught in a shield, seemed like he could put a lot of pressure on me... our bad OOS game got really noticeable really quick.

Then there's the f-airs and Sheik's general gimpiness... the aerial game competition hurt. Whenever we traded blows, I always came out with the higher %.

Just surprised me how poorly I did against a pseudo-random Sheik when I usually play well against my state's best Metaknights...

 

[noradseven]

Last night, I played some matches against my brother (who plays SSBB a lot more casually than I do). I picked ZSS and he picked Sheik, and we both went in kind of blind--he never plays against Zero Suits and I have never seen a decent Sheik.

I was surprised at how much trouble he gave me, especially since I play a lot more than him. I'm probably just a noob, but my usual tactics didn't work well at all. I tried spacing with side-B, but he was always able to get a PS -> grab or PS -> dash. My zoning sucked more 'cuz of those needles, too. And whenever I was caught in a shield, seemed like he could put a lot of pressure on me... our bad OOS game got really noticeable really quick.

Then there's the f-airs and Sheik's general gimpiness... the aerial game competition hurt. Whenever we traded blows, I always came out with the higher %.

Just surprised me how poorly I did against a pseudo-random Sheik when I usually play well against my state's best Metaknights...

Lol Trey, yeah, his style isn't well suited for fighting ZSS, in some ways. We haven't played for like 2months, but normally I would lose the first 1-2 then go on a winning streak, I have far more problems with Adam, mainly because I can read Trey like a book.

Sheik it tough, over B's kinda fail against her unless she is in the air, I got probably the best sheik in the state, unless there is someone who never goes to tournies, so you can try out mine, its p. good, if we ever run into each other.

Also you have no idea how frustrating it is to beat peach with link then lose to jiggs with ZSS, that match is not 9:1 in our favor Sfp you are insane its more like 6:4 our favor.

 

[sasook]

Peach doesn't have that big of an advantage over Link....

It's like 6/4 her favor.

And I too had trouble with Jiggz as ZSS once. Her pound went through what seemed like my everything.

 

[Charby]

I like your avatar ARES

 

[ph00tbag]

Don't forget about the weeges down B, its like the nado all over again.

How to beat Cyclone: Hold A.

 

[ThreeSided]

Peach doesn't have that big of an advantage over Link....

It's like 6/4 her favor.

And I too had trouble with Jiggz as ZSS once. Her pound went through what seemed like my everything.

I have the same history with every sinlge Jiggly I've ever played: Each game is insanely close, but I always win 2 in a row to make the match.

Our air speed is better than jiggly's. Just keep your distance and SH plasma whip like a *****. It usually gets the job done.

Keep in mind that I haven't fought a good jiggly in a long time, but the above still seems to be true. That was back when I was horrible; I did nothing but spam plasma whip. And it really worked well against Jiggly. Her air speed is low, she is very light, and she is all short-ranged melee attacks. Just space with plasma whip and use tilts to keep her away. In my opinion, this is a battle better fought mostly on the ground.

 

[~ARES]

I like your avatar ARES

Thanks. I seem to get that a lot.

 

[Hence]

Your signature is nice too.
Hah, you NC Zero Suits should get together and take a photo after exchanging MMs.

 

[~ARES]

Your signature is nice too.
Hah, you NC Zero Suits should get together and take a photo after exchanging MMs.

I'm up for it... I see ph00t pretty often already. He has a nice hat.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I'm up for it... I see ph00t pretty often already. He has a nice hat.

Why yes he does. I almost asked him to have sex with me when I met him at C3.

 

[Nefarious B]

Why yes he does. I almost asked him to have sex with me when I met him at C3.

Ban this troll please Dazwa, he clearly has nothing constructive to say.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Ban this troll please Dazwa, he clearly has nothing constructive to say.

Oh yeah? Well I counter-ban you! Take him away Dazwa!

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I feel that ZSS is at about the right place on the tier list. She might even be able to move up a bit if people perform well with her in tournaments.

 

[Nefarious B]

Oh yeah? Well I counter-ban you! Take him away Dazwa!

Douche**** is my new favorite word of the day

 

[wWw Dazwa]

also we don't really need a speculation thread since the tier list came out, so locked'd