New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Anti Guy]

I'm not maintaining that K. Rool is a feasible choice, but I will say he isn't completely and totally unfeasible.

My idea for the blunderbuss off of Waddle Dee Toss would be like so:
Gordos (I don't see why these wouldn't be modifiable articles) are replaced with cannonballs, the power is toned down, and the probability greatly increased
Capsules are replaced with barrels (memory blank, were the capsules removed in P:M?)
If Waddle Dees and Waddle Doos are articles, they can be modified to the paralyzing and slowdown gas clouds (which either hover along the ground in a similar fashion to their counterpart's walking or just disappear). If this is an unlikely addition, they can be removed entirely.

Could also use a neutral B vacuum attack like DDD

I think it's fair enough to say it could, potentially, be done, but comparatively he's less feasible than many other good choices.

I think the minions are items... correct me if I'm wrong. But I understand that Peach's turnips wouldn't be cloneable because those items. Considering the minions act on their own and are thrown, I'd imagine they're the same.

Here. I'll propose something for K. Rool. It's my absolute dream and my mission as a gamer to one day see the villain who is arguably (along with Ridley) the most deserving character to be immortalized in Smash Bros.

So let's do this. Of course the typical moveset for K. Rool involves the Blunderbuss and the Crown, but it's been said before how un-doable those are.

Well, Ganondorf is all magic and swords, and what did we get? A bare knuckle brawler with magic fists.

K. Rool has claws. K. Rool has bulk, boxing gloves, minions and all kinds of things.

How about giving him a moveset that uses his weight, his claws and the gloves? His down-throw can be a crocodile death roll (We've discussed that in the K. Rool thread. Some kind of modified Jiggly d-throw or somethin)

Using Bowser as a base might help. Obviously the moves would be different, but the build can work for a brawling set. Stuff like the blunderbuss and crown toss can be implemented as taunts or not at all if its too difficult to build them. Perhaps K. Rool could toss klaptraps ala Dedede's side B, but if not, an invisible rushing uppercut works too. (Seriously, I'm like dreaming if a Flying Croc boxing ring stage, where he does his "HRAAAAAH!" charge to the side with the side-b. Thats another great thing about the King. TONS of useable voice work.

Thoughts Anti-Guy?

The nice thing about K. Rool is he's got all kinds of room for movesets. We've just gotta compromise a bit.

It's possible, I guess. He'd have to function as a unique character though with all of his attacks being original, and that's a huge negative with regards to workload.

- 1 to everything because characters shouldn't be included based on a popularity contest

Smash Bros is one big Nintendo popularity contest turned into a fighter.

 

[Banjodorf]

- 1 to everything because characters shouldn't be included based on a popularity contest

I'd argue if you're trying to use a limited number of clone slots left in a game by the fans FOR the fans, it's important to see who the fans really want.

Obviously it's not the ONLY reason for inclusion, but in this case I'd say it's important.

 

[HMWii22]

Pleasing the maximum number of "fans" isn't important; making a good game is important

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

So many Lyn down-votes in a couple of pages, all because of the silly notion of "over-representation", and nothing else.
I'm offended.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Pleasing the maximum number of "fans" isn't important; making a good game is important

If you give the people what they want, that kind of goes hand in hand with their perception of a "good game".

Edit: double post.....I ain't even care...as long as I meant to do it

 

[andalsoandy]

So many Lyn down-votes in a couple of pages, all because of the silly notion of "over-representation", and nothing else.
I'm offended.

It's not like she'd have a very unique moveset...

 

[HMWii22]

If you give the people what they want, that kind of goes hand in hand with their perception of a "good game".

Edit: double post.....I ain't even care...as long as I meant to do it

Brawl had what I wanted in terms of characters, stages and music. But if it was truly a good game, in terms of what we've come to expect from Smash, then PM wouldn't need to exist.

 

[Anti Guy]

Pleasing the maximum number of "fans" isn't important; making a good game is important

They will make a good game regardless. And like Banjodorf said, it's just something to consider. It's not the end-all-be-all. They make the decisions. But Isaac being extremely popular and Shadow being extremely unpopular, for example, might tip them off to something like "hey, we should consider Isaac," or "maybe Shadow wouldn't be worth our time." Also other characters doing better than expected would be another thing to look at. Aside from that, there's absolutely nothing that says the top five characters here will make the roster or anything like that. It's just data.

So many Lyn down-votes in a couple of pages, all because of the silly notion of "over-representation", and nothing else.
I'm offended.

I think you "anti-representation" guys just have to suck up the fact that representation is a legitimate factor for many people.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

It's not like she'd have a very unique moveset...

You obviously haven't seen ManlySpirit's post.

Brawl had what I wanted in terms of characters, stages and music. But if it was truly a good game, in terms of what we've come to expect from Smash, then PM wouldn't need to exist.

Brawl was a FANTASTIC game. It just took a giant dump on competitive players. Don't get the two confused.

 

[Banjodorf]

Pleasing the maximum number of "fans" isn't important; making a good game is important

I mean, people wouldn't play Smash so rabidly (most of them, I'd wager anyway) if it was all Jigglypuffs. The Project M mantra seems to be to have as much fan-hype AND balance as possible. I don't think the chosen characters have anything to do with how well it'll play.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I think you "anti-representation" guys just have to suck up the fact that representation is a legitimate factor for many people.

I just think the argument is moot, considering that Project M isn't trying to "fairly" advertise Nintendo titles. Considering it's a mod made to make a game more competitive, moveset potential should be the big breadwinner.

I just don't like seeing "Lyn...meh...too many FE characters. TOAD! GEEZ THAT GUY'S COOL! PICHU! I LOVE THAT GUY!" People should at least be consistent with their reasoning if they're going to bring it up.

 

[andalsoandy]

You obviously haven't seen ManlySpirit's post.

Until I see it, I'm going with the notion that Lyn represents a series that's lucky to have even three fighters without bringing much to the table.

 

[MLGF]

It's not like she'd have a very unique moveset...

It's not like she was an interesting character in the series either besides "Lawl, first female lord"... which is also wrong.
I literally can't think of a single notable thing Lyn has going for her, she's important for a tedious tutorial before becoming completely superfluous to the plot.
I really don't see an appeal, even without the FE saturation argument, because characters like Ephraim (Lance), Hector (Axe), Leif (Weapons Master), or... anyone else exist.

 

[Anti Guy]

I just think the argument is moot, considering that Project M isn't trying to "fairly" advertise Nintendo titles. Considering it's a mod made to make a game more competitive, moveset potential should be the big breadwinner.

That's how it is with the existing game, but they never said anything like that regarding new characters. In fact, their whole thought process when it comes to new characters is largely unknown. So until then, it's an opinion. Many people are of the opinion of that new characters, despite this being in a custom mod that's not about advertising Nintendo titles, should still try to adhere to the original principles of bringing popular characters together in a fighting game. You might not think so, but that's your opinion. Many others think otherwise. It's not like they're arguing something that is an incorrect fact, like what has been done several times here. Just let it be.

 

[andalsoandy]

It's not like she was an interesting character in the series either besides "Lawl, first female lord"... which is also wrong.
I literally can't think of a single notable thing Lyn has going for her, she's important for a tedious tutorial before becoming completely superfluous to the plot.
I really don't see an appeal, even without the FE saturation argument, because characters like Ephraim (Lance), Hector (Axe), Leif (Weapons Master), or... anyone else exist.

True... I suppose...
Heh, I haven't played Fire Emblem much. The first one and Gaiden (NES) are really my only experiences with the series so far. Though I do see your point. Why pick the generic sword character when you have so many other options?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

It's not like she was an interesting character in the series either besides "Lawl, first female lord"... which is also wrong.
I literally can't think of a single notable thing Lyn has going for her, she's important for a tedious tutorial before becoming completely superfluous to the plot.
I really don't see an appeal, even without the FE saturation argument, because characters like Ephraim (Lance), Hector (Axe), Leif (Weapons Master), or... anyone else exist.

You know, I must admit, that's the first valid strike against Lyn I've ever seen.
Good work.
However, looking at things objectively, almost EVERY Nintendo character is extremely generic.
It may sting, but it's the truth.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

So many Lyn down-votes in a couple of pages, all because of the silly notion of "over-representation", and nothing else.
I'm offended.

Lol don't worry giga booser it was just -3

Anyway for the people who want her moveset. http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...ems-green-haired-lethal-beauty-lyndis.329084/

Manlyspirit might pop by and answer your questions directly, he also talked about the moveset somewhere in this thread, and I believe? a PMBR person saw it and liked it.

Plus she's M2k approved.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I´m all up for Ninten to complete the Mother trio. Why not?

He could be the fastest of Mother characters (and I mean Fast-Falling combo type character)
His playstyle could revolve around buffing/status inducing moves,

I'd love to see the suggested moveset Shin F. made, but I can't find it.

 

[Banjodorf]

I just don't like seeing "Lyn...meh...too many FE characters. TOAD! GEEZ THAT GUY'S COOL! PICHU! I LOVE THAT GUY!" People should at least be consistent with their reasoning if they're going to bring it up.

I think this OUGHT to be generally agreed upon. If Anti-Guy stated that its a legitimate factor, I think that should be a ouch for people to not even need to say it. I also agree though, that if Lyn is too much representation, characters like Krystal, Toad, and ESPECIALLY Pichu and Lyn are overstepping series (their series already got a CLONE slot even.)

Yeah. Honestly the focus needs to be on series with 2 or fewer characters, or new ones like Golden Sun.

 

[HMWii22]

I mean, people wouldn't play Smash so rabidly (most of them, I'd wager anyway) if it was all Jigglypuffs. The Project M mantra seems to be to have as much fan-hype AND balance as possible. I don't think the chosen characters have anything to do with how well it'll play.

So let's put Lyn in the game because we need yet another sword character with their entire moveset disjointed?

Anyway I have faith in the PMBR to include useful characters who actually add something to the game and make it more interesting, instead of just pandering to the fanboys who whine the loudest.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

I think this OUGHT to be generally agreed upon. If Anti-Guy stated that its a legitimate factor, I think that should be a ouch for people to not even need to say it. I also agree though, that if Lyn is too much representation, characters like Krystal, Toad, and ESPECIALLY Pichu and Lyn are overstepping series (their series already got a CLONE slot even.)

Yeah. Honestly the focus needs to be on series with 2 or fewer characters, or new ones like Golden Sun.

EXCEPT this isn't about representation, its about adding easy clone characters that would cause hype.

Ridley is hype
Isaac is hype
Dixie is an easy clone
People want teh pichu for some reason
Lyn can showcase exactly how PM can play like with those fast attacks.


Also, almost everyone in the cast can punch/kick so by that logic LETS NOT ADD ANYMORE PUNCHING CHARACERS GUIZE...

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

So let's put Lyn in the game because we need yet another sword character with their entire moveset disjointed?

Anyway I have faith in the PMBR to include useful characters who actually add something to the game and make it more interesting, instead of just pandering to the fanboys who whine the loudest.

Well you haven't exactly suggested anything remotely insightful, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Starcutter]

Red will add more variety to the meta.

Truth.

 

[andalsoandy]

Lol don't worry giga booser it was just -3

Anyway for the people who want her moveset. http://www.smashboards.com/threads/緑天龍-green-heavenly-dragon-fire-emblems-green-haired-lethal-beauty-lyndis.329084/

Manlyspirit might pop by and answer your questions directly, he also talked about the moveset somewhere in this thread, and I believe? a PMBR person saw it and liked it.

Plus she's M2k approved.

So her Up B is a generic jump, Neutral B is Marth's Down B, Down B is Ike's Neutral B and Side B is Fox's Illusion.

I'm not saying I hate it but there are just so many other options that add a more unique experience rather than playing Marthfox or foxarth or whatever.

...Farth?

 

[HMWii22]

Well you haven't exactly suggested anything remotely insightful, so I'll leave it at that.

My insightful idea is to not just suggest a character because they are your favourite.

 

[Anti Guy]

...Farth?

Will add that to the OP too

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

My insightful idea is to not just suggest a character because they are your favourite.

While I obviously can't speak for everyone, many people have provided plausible movesets and cloning possibilities to support their picks. Favoritism is just an added bonus. Your fan boy generalization isn't accurate (for the most part, though I guess I fall under that category, considering how much of a **** I've been).

 

[XStarWarriorX]

So her Up B is a generic jump, Neutral B is Marth's Down B, Down B is Ike's Neutral B and Side B is Fox's Illusion.

I'm not saying I hate it but there are just so many other options that add a more unique experience rather than playing Marthfox or foxarth or whatever.

...Farth?

If you haven't noticed there's 5 slots, the characters will be cloney anyway.
The PSI kids that you suggested sound less unique to me then lyn does.
It just sounds to me like you don't like the character in general.

(amount of attemps to post this 3.)

 

[andalsoandy]

Will add that to the OP too

All five of my votes for Farth

-1 for everyone else

 

[PsionicSabreur]

So let's put Lyn in the game because we need yet another sword character with their entire moveset disjointed?

Anyway I have faith in the PMBR to include useful characters who actually add something to the game and make it more interesting, instead of just pandering to the fanboys who whine the loudest.

Plenty of non-sword characters have huge disjoints (Ivysaur and Jigglypuff, for instance), and Lyn being a katana user would hopefully cut down on her range. Still a valid argument, I suppose. Think along the lines of Roy, he has decent range, and he can play spacing and keep-away, but he still finds it hard not to trade with non-sword characters and his playstyle is much more rewarding at close range. Hopefully Lyn could be saved from a forced campy playstyle in much the same way, albeit with a different exact method.

Notice this thread is not a deciding vote. It is a rough way to gauge popularity, which is an actual criteria for choosing a character. Also, whether you believe me or not, a lot of voters have made decisions based on who they think would make a mark on gameplay, instead of just pure fanboyism.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

They will make a good game regardless. And like Banjodorf said, it's just something to consider. It's not the end-all-be-all. They make the decisions. But Isaac being extremely popular and Shadow being extremely unpopular, for example, might tip them off to something like "hey, we should consider Isaac," or "maybe Shadow wouldn't be worth our time."

Yea cause the people in this thread are obviously the only fans with an opinion on clone characters and the results are an accurate representation of the 40,000+ people who download this game

 

[HMWii22]

While I obviously can't speak for everyone, many people have provided plausible movesets and cloning possibilities to support their picks. Favoritism is just an added bonus. Your fan boy generalization isn't accurate (for the most part, though I guess I fall under that category, considering how much of a **** I've been).

I feel like I'm being close-minded anyway, whether it applies to you specifically or not. I'm sure you get what I'm trying to say but yeah you're right too. I just don't think PM needs any more Fire Emblem characters, and I say that as a big fan of FE.

Plenty of non-sword characters have huge disjoints (Ivysaur and Jigglypuff, for instance), and Lyn being a katana user would hopefully cut down on her range. Still a valid argument, I suppose. Think along the lines of Roy, he has decent range, and he can play spacing and keep-away, but he still finds it hard not to trade with non-sword characters and his playstyle is much more rewarding at close range. Hopefully Lyn could be saved from a forced campy playstyle in much the same way, albeit with a different method.

Yeah I get that, I just don't see what Lyn would add to the game that couldn't easily be incorporated into one of the 3 already-existent FE characters.

popularity, which is an actual criteria for choosing a character

See, that's the problem. It shouldn't be a criteria and I don't think it will be either

 

[Xebenkeck]

A few things to say after reading the last few pages.

@Anti-guy, there is no problem what so ever with adding a model for K.rool into the game. That is actually rather easy. The problems with K.rool is that there are not any characters in the game with a body and bones similar to him that animations could be attached to.

If you have worked with Brawlbox you know how easy it is to put animations of other characters onto a model. Just load whoever s Fit(insert character name)MotionEtc.pac onto the model you wish. Example You have a K.rool model, just open that in BB, and then say you want to put DDD's animations onto him, just open the FitDededeMotionEtc.pac and all the animations will load for DDD on K.rool's model. And in three easy steps you can make ANY animation in the game autoadjust to fit the model. 1) Make frame 2 all keyframes. 2) copy/paste the t-stance(frame 0) onto frame 1. This cause the rest of the animation to "autosnap" the the models proportions. 3) Reanimate frame 1 so it isn't a T-stance. Then walla you've put say Lucas, ftilt onto samus.

The problem is that if the bones are not similar then the animation can(not always) look funky. So for example, putting a Ness animation onto Lucas is extremely easy to do. But try putting an animation from someone who has awkward bones, like DK or ROB, then you get really stupid things happening and literally have to adjust every frame of the animation. Essentially make a new one. So if you have a character like K.rool who doesn't have a character in the game similar to his body it's hard to make a clone of him animation wise.




This ties into the second thing about Dixie. There is nothing in the game that can emulate her hair right now. No other character in Brawl has a giant ponytail. So yes it would be easy to make her body move like Diddy, but for EVERY SINGLE animation you would have to personally animate the hair. There are about 260 animations for every character. For me personally if I was an animator in the PMBR, that would be a massive turn off.


This is why characters with bodies which are either identical to or very close to existing characters are ones which are far more likely to be implemented. Like Pichu, Claus, Lyn, Issac.

That isn't to say a character like Dixie or K.rool can't be done. Its just they would be a significantly bigger undertaking then other suggestions

 

[andalsoandy]

If you haven't noticed there's 5 slots, the characters will be cloney anyway.
The PSI kids that you suggested sound less unique to me then lyn does.
It just sounds to me like you don't like the character in general.

(amount of attemps to post this 3.)

I really just think we have enough sword users, plus we already have a clone AND a semi-clone of Marth.
The PSI kids have a lot of stuff in their games that they don't use in Smash. You can literally change every move Ness or Lucas has and make it something different (and canonical.)
I don't really have anything against Lyn, and to be fair I don't have an affinity for Earthbound either.

 

[Anti Guy]

Yea cause the people in this thread are obviously the only fans with an opinion on clone characters and the results are an accurate representation of the 40,000+ people who download this game

Dude, I don't know how many times I've responded to you about this, but I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Do you not understand how surveys work? They poll a small population to get a gauge of the total population. FFS, understand some basic math here.

 

[HMWii22]

Dude, I don't know how many times I've responded to you about this, but I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Do you not understand how surveys work? They poll a small population to get a gauge of the total population. FFS, understand some basic math here.

I live in Toronto and according to "polls", our crack-smoking mayor has a 42% approval rating. I'm not surprised that people think polls are a joke

 

[Starcutter]

K Rool could be cloned by body from Dedede. without the puffups and stuff.

 

[Anti Guy]

I live in Toronto and according to "polls", our crack-smoking mayor has a 42% approval rating. I'm not surprised that people think polls are a joke

Either that or a large chunk of the people in Toronto are a joke. And here's more on that topic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24824648

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Another thing to add to my thoughts on over-representation.
With 5 extra slots, and a game that has 41 characters with basically all of the big franchises' covered fairly well, there WILL be inevitable over-representation. No matter how anyone will look at it, someone's gonna say "There's too many characters from X franchise", and that's CLEARLY been evidenced with this thread. With a lot of these characters, we're REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as significant characters go.

 

[Shin F.]

I´m all up for Ninten to complete the Mother trio. Why not?

He could be the fastest of Mother characters (and I mean Fast-Falling combo type character)
His playstyle could revolve around buffing/status inducing moves,

I'd love to see the suggested moveset Shin F. made, but I can't find it.

Right here. There were two posts.
http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...ts-updated-11-13.341479/page-57#post-16015925
http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...ts-updated-11-13.341479/page-63#post-16019693

Another thing to add to my thoughts on over-representation.With 5 extra slots, and a game that has 41 characters with basically all of the big franchises' covered fairly well, there WILL be inevitable over-representation. With a lot of these characters, we're REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as significant characters go.

Funny, that. There's this character that starred in the first game of his series who has perfect moveset potential... *hint hint*