New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Saikyoshi]

Actually, the likelihood of a character being in Smash 4 isn't a valid reason for downvoting.
If you voted on Ridley and he did end up as DLC, you could use that vote on someone else.

But if he's already been made and released when he gets announced?

Also, likelihood of being in Smash 4 was on several character's "cons" lists.

 

[Shin F.]

Also, likelihood of being in Smash 4 was on several character's "cons" lists.

We didn't know the roster when those were written. We do now. That's another thing that was changed in the new OP, which you can see the draft of on page 499.

 

[TRJV]

But if he's already been made and released when he gets announced?

Then the PMDT would continue with releasing it.
The point of the rule was that they wouldn't start working on a character if it'd already been announced for Smash 4.

 

[UltimateWario]

-Oh, by the way;
-1 Dark Samus
Reason: It's not a character, it's a pallete swap. Just look at how hated is. Just make it a costume like 4's doing.

-1 Ridley
Reason: I'd like to make it clear that I AM a Ridley supporter. However, there's still a lingering chance he'll be DLC... Paid DLC.

1. You clearly know jack-all about Dark Samus. Dark Samus is no more of a palette swap of Samus than Mewtwo is of Mew.

2. Eligibility for Smash 4, DLC or otherwise, is not an acceptable reason for a downvote.

 

[Saikyoshi]

We didn't know the roster when those were written. We do now. That's another thing that was changed in the new OP, which you can see the draft of on page 499.

We really don't. DLC is a very strong possibility and I think it should be taken into account.

1. You clearly know jack-all about Dark Samus. Dark Samus is no more of a palette swap of Samus than Mewtwo is of Mew.

Dark Pit is no more of a palette swap of Pit than Dark Samus is of Samus, but does that stop him from sticking out like a sore thumb? Does that stop the average player from hating him? Does that stop him from not being aesthetically different from his source?

 

[UltimateWario]

Dark Pit is no more of a palette swap of Pit than Mewtwo is of Mew, but does that stop him from sticking out like a sore thumb? Does that stop the average player from hating him? Does that stop him from not being aesthetically different from his source?

Do you even know what Mew and Mewtwo look like? I'm not defending Dark Pit, he's a piece of **** and terrible roster addition. Dark Samus, on the other hand, isn't just Samus but different colors. She has a different design and completely different abilities. By your logic, we should take out Luigi because he looks kinda similar to Mario except different colors.

For reference, here are the two of them.

Spoiler

Unlike Pit and Dark Pit, there are model differences and a complete difference in abilities.

We really don't. DLC is a very strong possibility and I think it should be taken into account.

Even if that were the case, why would you DOWNVOTE him? If the (highly likely) chance of him NOT being DLC, that would just be fighting against a cause you claim to support.

 

[Shin F.]

We really don't. DLC is a very strong possibility and I think it should be taken into account.

Yes, we do. We know the entire Smash 4 roster. DLC is a bonus that may come after the fact, but even if it does, there is no guarantee that even if we do get DLC, this character or that one will happen. And how long will it take for us to get this DLC? A month? A year? Will we get Ridley three years from now? There's too much uncertainty, and no reliable information telling us who may become a new character or when we might get them.

So no, it should not (and for the purposes of this thread, will not) be taken into account.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Do you even know what Mew and Mewtwo look like? I'm not defending Dark Pit, he's a piece of **** and terrible roster addition. Dark Samus, on the other hand, isn't just Samus but different colors. She has a different design and completely different abilities. By your logic, we should take out Luigi because he looks kinda similar to Mario except different colors.

Do you even hear yourself right now? This really just sounds like a massive pile of fan bias and hypocrisy.

Dark Pit used different weapons than Pit in his own game, after all. Whole new set of abilities.

Even if that were the case, why would you DOWNVOTE him? If the (highly likely) chance of him NOT being DLC, that would just be fighting against a cause you claim to support.

Because I don't want to risk having the entire game shut down?

 

[UltimateWario]

Do you even hear yourself right now?

Do you?

You literally just said that the differences between Pit and Dark Pit are comparable to the differences between Mewtwo and Mew. To clarify, Dark Pit started as a palette swap in Brawl. His very ORIGINS are that of a palette swap.

Because I don't want to risk having the entire game shut down?

Except it wouldn't?

 

[Shin F.]

Do you even hear yourself right now? This really just sounds like a massive pile of fan bias and hypocrisy.

Dark Pit used different weapons than Pit in his own game, after all. Whole new set of abilities.

People don't hate Dark Pit just because he's a dark Clone of Pit given his own slot. They hate that Kid Icarus has 3 reps while Metroid and DK still have just two. They hate him because he's a symbol of Sakurai's bias for Kid Icarus in this game. And Dark Pit is seen as a worthless addition because his moves for the most part don't even have different properties from Pit's.

None of which is true for Dark Samus. In fact, I've seen a lot of people saying that if there was going to be a Dark clone, it should've been Dark Samus, so comparisons between the two aren't very apt, all things considered.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Because I don't want to risk having the entire game shut down?

Alright, look. The PMBR said that if they start working on a character and finish him/her/it then Smash 4 is later given that character as well, they won't scrap the character. This means that, should Smash 4 later have Mewtwo as DLC, they won't just throw their own Mewtwo in the trash and the rest of Project M along with it.

So no, DLC should not be factored at all because of that statement. We don't NEED to.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Do you?

You literally just said that the differences between Pit and Dark Pit are comparable to the differences between Mewtwo and Mew. To clarify, Dark Pit started as a palette swap in Brawl. His very ORIGINS are that of a palette swap.

You replied before I edited that post.

And also:

For reference, here are the two of them.

Spoiler

Ooh, a different pose. Slightly more geometric armor. That changes everything, doesn't it?

People don't hate Dark Pit just because he's a dark Clone of Pit given his own slot. They hate that Kid Icarus has 3 reps while Metroid and DK still have just two. They hate him because he's a symbol of Sakurai's bias for Kid Icarus in this game. And Dark Pit is seen as a worthless addition because his moves for the most part don't even have different properties from Pit's.

None of which is true for Dark Samus. In fact, I've seen a lot of people saying that if there was going to be a Dark clone, it should've been Dark Samus, so comparisons between the two aren't very apt, all things considered.

Because Metroid is cooler than Kid Icarus? That's seriously the only difference between the two I can think of.

 

[UltimateWario]

Ooh, a different pose. Slightly more geometric armor. That changes everything, doesn't it?

Ooh, a different pose and different heights. That changes everything, doesn't it?

 

[Shin F.]

Ooh, a different pose. Slightly more geometric armor. That changes everything, doesn't it?

Bad example for Dark Samus' appearance, IMO.

Because Metroid is cooler than Kid Icarus? That's seriously the only difference between the two I can think of.

Metroid has more games, has sold much more than Kid Icarus, and is generally more popular. Why should Kid Icarus have more characters than it, let alone Donkey Kong?

 

[Saikyoshi]

Ooh, a different pose and different heights. That changes everything, doesn't it?

Yeah, it doesn't. And frankly, I didn't really like Luigi that much either in 64/Melee. He didn't start looking and acting unique until Brawl.

Bad example for Dark Samus' appearance, IMO.

That's even closer to normal Samus.

Bad example for Dark Samus' appearance, IMO.
Metroid has more games, has sold much more than Kid Icarus, and is generally more popular. Why should Kid Icarus have more characters than it, let alone Donkey Kong?

How would adding Dark Samus not be an example of the same creator bias on our end? Kid Icarus is more popular than Metroid in Japan, and I didn't even bring up Donkey Kong, so I don't know why you are.

Anyway, my downvote still stands and is not going to change.

 

[Saikyoshi]

[[Accidental double post.]]

 

[Shin F.]

How would adding Dark Samus not be an example of the same creator bias on our end? Kid Icarus is more popular than Metroid in Japan, and I didn't even bring up Donkey Kong, so I don't know why you are.

Oh, I dunno... Because we didn't create Dark Samus?

I brought up DK because you were comparing Dark Samus to Dark Pit, saying she would have a similar reception. I was explaining why this is not the case - Dark Pit is getting so much hate because of the fact that Kid Icarus has more representation than Metroid and DK. Not because he's a Dark Clone.

On the other hand, it is generally agreed that Metroid could use another character, and many have said they would have preferred Dark Samus as a Clone to Dark Pit.

For this reason, the comparisons you made between the two aren't valid, because it's not Dark Pit's appearance or even strictly his moveset that caused his reception, but the representation of his series over a more deserving one.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Oh, I dunno... Because we didn't create Dark Samus?

I brought up DK because you were comparing Dark Samus to Dark Pit, saying she would have a similar reception. I was explaining why this is not the case - Dark Pit is getting so much hate because of the fact that Kid Icarus has more representation than Metroid and DK. Not because he's a Dark Clone.

On the other hand, it is generally agreed that Metroid could use another character, and many have said they would have preferred Dark Samus as a Clone to Dark Pit.

For this reason, the comparisons you made between the two aren't valid, because it's not Dark Pit's appearance or even strictly his moveset that caused his reception, but the representation of the series over a more deserving one.

Bolded: I honestly don't think that's the case. I hear complaints about his similarities to Pit a lot more often than I do about the series he's from.

Underline: P:M has a fan and developer base where Metroid is far more easily forgiven than other series. That's why I call bias – maybe not CREATOR'S bias, but bias nonetheless.

Think about what it would look like to someone who's not a Metroid fan. They're more common than you think. They'd think: "why does this costume have its own slot?"

If you're not going to listen about Dark Pit, look at the complaints against Young/Toon Link and Dr. Mario, who are more visually distinct from their source than Dark Samus/Pit.

 

[leekslap]

Bolded: I honestly don't think that's the case. I hear complaints about his similarities to Pit a lot more often than I do about the series he's from.

Underline: P:M has a fan and developer base where Metroid is far more easily forgiven than other series. That's why I call bias – maybe not CREATOR'S bias, but bias nonetheless.

Think about what it would look like to someone who's not a Metroid fan. They're more common than you think.

-_- Wow. You sir just blew my mind with your stupidity. If we follow your logic then any character who will get added is very biased because the PMDT listens to the community. So is Little Mac, Shulk, etc. You are practically saying that fan favorites of many people that are not you should not be added because only you matter. That has to be one of the most selfish things I have ever heard.

You clearly don't know **** about Metroid. Metroid Prime is one of the greatest FPS of all time and many times has Super Metroid been listed number 1 greatest game of all time. Dark Samus is NOT a clone. I mean did you even bother to check? No. Dark Samus is like a cold and calculating yet brutal animal. She zips and teleports all over the place firiing weak scattershot phazon or powerful corrupt beams of energy. Basically, she'd be an aggressive and fast Samus.

 

[PlateProp]

Ooh, a different pose and different heights. That changes everything, doesn't it?

Those pictures look dope as ****

10/10 Do want to replace current P:M css

On a side note, pretty sure Dark Pit will be better than normal Pit in smash 4, apparently he's got harder hits while still being a sword puff.

 

[Rasgar]

I don't understand all the complaining about Dark Pit. Seriously, he's almost exactly like Pit... on purpose, so that another character could be thrown into the game. Maybe that could be considered a lazy addition, but do people honestly think he stole the place of another "better" character just because he has a slot on the roster? How does the development time for "palette swap with slightly different properties" equate to "fleshed out non-clone character with an original moveset"?

 

[Saikyoshi]

-_- Wow. You sir just blew my mind with your stupidity. If we follow your caveman level logic then any character who will get added is very biased because the PMDT listens to the community. So is Little Mac, Shulk, etc. You are practically saying that fan favorites of many people that are not you should not be added because only you matter. I'd love to say all the things in my head about how stupid you are but it would take me days.

You clearly don't know **** about Metroid or anything for that matter. Metroid Prime is one of the greastest FPS of all time and many times has Super Metroid been listed number 1 greatest game of all time. Dark Samus is NOT a clone. I mean did you even bother to check? No. Dark Samus is like a cold and calculating yet brutal animal. She zips all over the place firiing weak scattershot phazon or powerful corrupt beams or energy. Basically, she'd be an aggressive Samus

Bold: You might want to rethink that.

Underline: Little Mac, Shulk, etc. don't look identical to an existing character.

My vote against American Dark Pit still stands.

 

[leekslap]

I don't understand all the complaining about Dark Pit. Seriously, he's almost exactly like Pit... on purpose, so that another character could be thrown into the game. Maybe that could be considered a lazy addition, but do people honestly think he stole the place of another "better" character just because he has a slot on the roster? How does the development time for "palette swap with slightly different properties" equate to "fleshed out non-clone character with an original moveset"?

Representation and importance and bias is why. Dark Pit barely changes from Pit and Sakurai put him in because he made Uprising. Pikmin is a more popular franchise and Alph could have replaced him easily with rock pikmin and a more Brawl moveset.
Pit still has that black costume though so I really don't see the point.

 

[leekslap]

Bold: And this is why I don't take the Metroid fanbase seriously.

BASICALLY. Did you not hear about the teleporting and scattershots and being faster? If you actually knew anything, you'd see those are actually big deviations from Samus. I mean she'd more diversified than Roy or Falco or even Luigi. You just insulted so many people for a very bad reason, you know? I mean how stuck up can a person get?

 

[Saikyoshi]

BASICALLY. Did you not hear about the teleporting and scattershots and being faster? If you actually knew anything, you'd see those are actually big deviations from Samus. I mean she'd more diversified than Roy or Falco or even Luigi. You just insulted so many people for a very bad reason, you know? I mean how stuck up can a person get?

And you replied just before I edited. I apologize.

Anyway, the problem is that she still looks identical to Samus and would not be received well by anyone outside the Metroid fanbase. There's a reason Smash 4 only has her as a costume; she's not visually distinct.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

*sees annoying arguing over a small issue*

*brings up how cool Isaac would be in Project M*

*the thread is saved for a little while*

 

[Shin F.]

Anyway, the problem is that she still looks identical to Samus. There's a reason Smash 4 only has her as a costume; she's not visually distinct.

The same could be said of Dark Pit, so no, I find it highly unlikely that this is why she's not a character.

 

[leekslap]

Bold: You might want to rethink that.

Underline: Little Mac, Shulk, etc. don't look identical to an existing character.

My vote against American Dark Pit still stands.

*sigh* Looks don't matter! I mean, at this point you are just ignoring what I just said to help your case. They are DIFFERENT, OK.

 

[Saikyoshi]

The same could be said of Dark Pit, so no, I find it highly unlikely that this is why she's not a character.

Because Kid Icarus is more popular than Metroid in Japan.

If the countries were reversed, then Dark Samus would be in and we'd be arguing about adding Dark Pit right now.

*sigh* Looks don't matter! Dark Samus doesn't even look like you say he does. She's clearly a whole different beast but your brain is so stubborn. You are still being a narcissist and an idiot. They are DIFFERENT, OK.

If you're going to keep insulting me for not supporting your character for what I feel is a valid reason, I will report you.

 

[Shin F.]

Because Kid Icarus is more popular than Metroid in Japan.

Irrelevant. The statement you made was about their appearance, which has nothing to do with popularity.

If the countries were reversed, then Dark Samus would be in and we'd be arguing about adding Dark Pit right now.

So you're saying that if Smash was made more with western audiences in mind, Dark Samus would be in? Not saying you're right, but if that's the case, then why not put her into Project M, which is developed primarily for and by western audiences?

 

[leekslap]

Because Kid Icarus is more popular than Metroid in Japan.

If the countries were reversed, then Dark Samus would be in and we'd be arguing about adding Dark Pit right now.

Nobody wanted Dark Pit and Sakurai would have added him anyway because of a very small reason you seem to forget. HE MADE THE DAMN GAME.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Irrelevant. The statement you made was about their appearance, which has nothing to do with popularity.

So you're saying that if Smash was made more with western audiences in mind, Dark Samus would be in? Then why not put her into Project M, which is developed primarily for and by western audiences?

The fact of the matter is, we do know DP was in out of Sakurai bias.

And another fact is, there are a large percentage of users who are not a KI:U fan that hate him.

Dark Samus would be PR suicide among anyone who's not a hardcore Metroid fan.

 

[Shin F.]

Dark Samus would be PR suicide among anyone who's not a hardcore Metroid fan.

Ignoring the very important fact that she's the #6 most popular character in the polls, here, just half a point under K Rool.

Spoiler: Most Recent Results 9/21/14

434 unique voters.
Character: Total (+1, 0.5, -1, % Approval)

Top 5
Isaac: 207.5 (200, 39, 12, 95.22%)
Ridley: 154.5 (168, 43, 35, 85.77%)
Ganondorf / Black Shadow: 117 (144, 32, 43, 80.37%)
Lyn: 106 (115, 46, 32, 83.42%)
K Rool: 89.5 (80, 51, 16, 89.12%)

S-Tier (55+ total)
Dark Samus: 89 (87, 54, 25, 84.94%)
Skull Kid: 81.5 (65, 43, 5, 95.58%)
Saki: 65 (55, 38, 9, 91.18%)
Ray: 58.5 (44, 31, 1, 98.68%)
Sami: 56.5 (61, 23, 16, 84.00%)

A-Tier (30+ total)
Masked Man: 51.5 (41, 37, 8, 90.70%)
Sukapon: 51.5 (56, 43, 26, 79.20%)
Dixie Kong: 44 (55, 48, 35, 74.64%)
Paper Mario: 41.5 (40, 49, 23, 79.46%)

B-Tier (15+ total)
Tom Nook: 29 (30, 28, 15, 79.45%)
Andy: 28 (22, 32, 10, 84.38%)
Ninten: 26.5 (24, 23, 9, 83.93%)
Waluigi: 23 (47, 42, 45, 66.42%)
Samurai Goroh: 22 (17, 23, 9, 83.93%)
Takamaru: 19 (10, 18, 0, 100%)
Lip: 17.5 (11, 13, 0, 100%)

C-Tier (0+ total)
Tetra: 11.5 (18, 19, 16, 69.81%)
Pichu: 10.5 (68, 35, 75, 57.87%)
Hector: 9.5 (20, 25, 23, 66.18%)
Mach Rider: 7.5 (1, 13, 0, 100%)
Prince Sable: 7 (3, 8, 0, 100%)
Primid: 7 (7, 8, 4, 78.95%)
Ashley: 6.5 (2, 9, 0, 100%)
Rawk Hawk: 6.5 (1, 11, 0, 100%)
Slippy: 6 (7, 8, 5, 75.00%)
Leon: 5 (3, 6, 1, 90.00%)
Micaiah: 4 (3, 6, 2, 81.82%)
Balloon Fighter: 4.5 (1, 9, 1, 90.91%)
Toad: 3 (25, 26, 35, 59.30%)
Young Link: 1.5 (4, 5, 5, 64.29%)

D-Tier (0 and lower)
Pokemon Trainer: -2 (13, 6, 18, 51.35%)
Plusle and Minun: -2.5 (8, 7, 14, 51.72%)
Krystal: -3 (26, 34, 46, 56.60%)
Toon Zelda: -8.5 (8, 7, 20, 42.86%)

F-Tier (Bottom 5)
Gray Fox: -9 (5, 4, 16, 36.00%)
Liquid Snake: -9 (2, 2, 12, 25.00%)
Tails: -29.5 (22, 29, 66, 43.59%)
Knuckles: -41 (22, 16, 71, 34.86%)
Shadow: -55.5 (22, 15, 85, 30.33%)

Tell me again how hated and unpopular she would be?

 

[Saikyoshi]

Ignoring the very important fact that she's the #6 most popular character in the polls, here.

among anyone who's not a hardcore Metroid fan

SmashBoards is extremely Metroid-centric. Don't pretend otherwise.

 

[leekslap]

Because Kid Icarus is more popular than Metroid in Japan.

If the countries were reversed, then Dark Samus would be in and we'd be arguing about adding Dark Pit right now.


If you're going to keep insulting me for not supporting your character for what I feel is a valid reason, I will report you.

Let's not forget you insulted me and a TON of other people.

The fact of the matter is, we do know DP was in out of Sakurai bias.

And another fact is, there are a large percentage of users who are not a KI:U fan that hate him.

Dark Samus would be PR suicide among anyone who's not a hardcore Metroid fan.

Geez theese alerts are coming every 5 secs. Unlike you, some people respect a large fanbase's opinions and wouldn't really be bothered by that. Dude your opinions are so radically different, how can yoj tell?

 

[Blitzus]

Volke is the best Assassin, guys.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Let's not forget you insulted me and a TON of other people.

I said I was sorry for that.

Though I seem to remember you calling me "stupid" and using "caveman logic" before I ever started talking to you.

Geez theese alerts are coming every 5 secs. Unlike you, some people respect a large fanbase's opinions and wouldn't really be bothered by that. Dude your opinions are so radically different, how can yoj tell?

All I know is, people don't like palette swaps, and SmashBoards is very heavily Metroid-biased. Nobody but SmashBoards and other heavily Metroid-based fan groups would appreciate her addition.

 

[leekslap]

SmashBoards is extremely Metroid-centric. Don't pretend otherwise.

OK, I'm done! You just said the reception would be terrible and immediately contradict yourself for millionth time that the BIGGEST smash community really likes Metroid. Dude even casuals can appriciate how badass metroid is.

 

[Saikyoshi]

OK, I'm done! You just said the reception would be terrible and immediately contradict yourself for millionth time that the BIGGEST smash community really likes Metroid. Dude even casuals can appriciate how badass metroid is.

SmashBoards isn't the only community in the world. The reception everywhere else would be terrible.

 

[Shin F.]

SmashBoards is extremely Metroid-centric. Don't pretend otherwise.

Really? Wanna show me something to back that up, or is it just an empty statement? I don't see Metroid around here any more than any other series.