New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Plus 1 for Lip as well. I'd love to see her. We have no direct wand/staff magic users, and she has tons of potential. Plus, we already have the Lip's Stick to use as a model for an easy moveset as is. Even based off of Ness/Lucas.

Yes to Pichu too, as a fun skin.(I like that idea of powering up his moves at the cost of some percentage too) I also really don't believe it'll "take away Pikachu mains". It's very risky to hurt yourself even with more power. It's a matter of strategy and risk VS reward. We could use that type of character.

Definitely Ridley too, cause it's Ridley. He's awesome alone~

 

[Sour Supreme]

Maybeh teh PMBR can just replace Tabuu with Pichu for Boss Battles. How badass would that be? You fight through a line of intense battles with monsters only to be confronted in Final Destination by a mouse that swallowed a light bulb.

GG, Pichu. GG.

 

[arcticfox8]

Yes to Pichu too, as a fun skin.(I like that idea of powering up his moves at the cost of some percentage too) I also really don't believe it'll "take away Pikachu mains". It's very risky to hurt yourself even with more power. It's a matter of strategy and risk VS reward. We could use that type of character.

I don't get what you're trying to say
"A fun skin"
Movesets don't change at all between skins
Pichu has to be it's own character or it's not happening

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't get what you're trying to say
"A fun skin"
Movesets don't change at all between skins
Pichu has to be it's own character or it's not happening

As in you use Pikachu as the model and gives him an available moveset based around Pikachu's and some changes. I remember a Dr. Mario made based upon Mario that did that, with unique moves based upon his Melee moveset.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Shin F.]

As in you use Pikachu as the model and gives him an available moveset based around Pikachu's and some changes. I remember a Dr. Mario made based upon Mario that did that, with unique moves based upon his Melee moveset.

Sorry for the confusion.

He didn't have unique moves. He merely had cosmetic differences, which was possible because he and Mario share the exact same motions and boneset. The pills and electricity only look different. They don't act different. Pikachu and Pichu do not share the same set of bones or motions, despite how similar they seem. He would never work as a skin.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

He didn't have unique moves. He merely had cosmetic differences, which was possible because he and Mario share the exact same motions and boneset. The pills and electricity only look different. They don't act different. Pikachu and Pichu do not share the same set of bones or motions, despite how similar they same. He will never work as a skin.

I'm not picky on the details. Whatever works. My vote remains the same, but again, whatever works for Pichu.

 

[Shin F.]

I'm not picky on the details. Whatever works. My vote remains the same, but again, whatever works for Pichu.

I'm jut saying for everyone's benefit so they know - unless he is a brand new character, totally independent from Pikachu, he won't work. The idea that he could just be a skin or could be hidden behind him by holding R just isn't technically feasible to the standard PMBR sets for themselves.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm jut saying for everyone's benefit so they know - unless he is a brand new character, totally independent from Pikachu, he won't work. The idea that he could just be a skin or could be hidden behind him by holding R just isn't technically feasible to the standard PMBR sets for themselves.

I repeat what I said; Whatever works. I'm not really picky here. I just want to play as the guy again. He was fun in Melee. One of my favorites to play as(not that he was great for tourneys, but eh).

 

[ZeruSlayer]

I honestly find if Pichu were added with this mechanic the only major flaw I see is the typical question "Which is better?". I rather not have another "Fox or Falco?" type of scenario especially since there is limitless potential in the form of trophies and stickers that can trump Pichu any day when considering a worthy clone engine character

 

[F. Blue]

Making Pichu good would be unspeakable. It defeats the purpose.

 

[arcticfox8]

And yet Kirby is viable and noone gives a ****

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

HyperFalcon, you keep going on about how you're "not picky" about Pichu being a skin or not, but the thing is it's not merely an aestyetic thing, it's against the rules the PMBR have set for themselves regarding both Clone Engine characters and alternate costumes. Pichu as a Pikachu alternate skin just isn't going to happen.

I trust @ arcticfox8 will cover me here.

 

[F. Blue]

It's kinda sad that Sakurai's baby wound up worse than the joke character.

I'm not a hacking expert, but holding R to select a different character is probably doable. It worked for Samus and ZSS, and similar codes exist for stages and stuff. Like, make Pichu like you would any other character, but delete/don't add his character icon. Then just make a secret code that makes the game load him instead of the character you chose (Pikachu). You could theoretically do this for any 2 characters, preexisting or clones, and even costumes.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

HyperFalcon, you keep going on about how you're "not picky" about Pichu being a skin or not, but the thing is it's not merely an aestyetic thing, it's against the rules the PMBR have set for themselves regarding both Clone Engine characters and alternate costumes. Pichu as a Pikachu alternate skin just isn't going to happen.

I trust @ arcticfox8 will cover me here.

I get that. I'm fine with him being an original character. That's what I'm saying. I misunderstood that, and said "whatever works" for a reason. I don't care that much as long as he's in.

Seriously, that's why I said multiple times "whatever works". I'm not picky about him being implemented. I thought an alt could be more interesting, but that's obviously not allowed. So his own design is fine too.

Please stop misreading what I want here. I just want him in, period. As his own character is more than good enough, if not even better.

 

[arcticfox8]

HyperFalcon, you keep going on about how you're "not picky" about Pichu being a skin or not, but the thing is it's not merely an aestyetic thing, it's against the rules the PMBR have set for themselves regarding both Clone Engine characters and alternate costumes. Pichu as a Pikachu alternate skin just isn't going to happen.

I trust @ arcticfox8 will cover me here.

Is that my cue? I think that's my cue
Clone Engine info: http://projectmgame.com/en/news/clone-engine-blogpost-limits-restrictions-and-possibilities
Alt Costume info: http://projectmgame.com/en/news/alternate-costumes-blogpost

 

[Shin F.]

It's kinda sad that Sakurai's baby wound up worse than the joke character.

I'm not a hacking expert, but holding R to select a different character is probably doable. It worked for Samus and ZSS, and similar codes exist for stages and stuff. Like, make Pichu like you would any other character, but delete/don't add his character icon. Then just make a secret code that makes the game load him instead of the character you chose (Pikachu). You could theoretically do this for any 2 characters, preexisting or clones, and even costumes.

Yes, you could do that for characters (not costumes), but what I'm saying is that it would be pointless. He'll still take up a character slot that way. If you're going to do this, you may as well put him on the CSS outright, because there won't be a difference. Why would you hide him away when there is literally no benefit to it?

 

[ZeruSlayer]

Making Pichu good would be unspeakable. It defeats the purpose.

Making Pichu bad defeats Project M's purpose so what's your point?

And yet Kirby is viable and noone gives a ****

Chudat would like to have a word with you

 

[| Kailex |]

I take it these are actual upvotes? It's pretty obvious with SchAlternate but I'm not sure Khlx is actually voting. I'm currently counting all of the new votes that came in during the week of e3 and I just wanted to double check with you guys.

If you wouldn't mind in the future, if you vote again, to list out your votes so they're easier to tally? Just helps lessen our workload a little.

Yes im voting for lip and only lip

 

[CBO0tz]

Alright, without further adieu, our latest results! 300 individuals have now voted within the Clone Engine Character Speculation thread and we've got quite the spread here.

The format is of course as followed:
Name: Score (+1s, +1/2s, -1s, %)

Only characters with at least 10 votes (5 must be positive) are included.



S Tier
Isaac: 155 (151, 28, 10, 94.71%)
Ridley: 118 (124, 38,25, 86.63%)
Lyn: 88 (93, 34, 22, 85.23%)
Ganondorf / Black Shadow: 80 (104, 26, 37, 77.84%)
Dark Samus: 62.5 (62, 45, 22, 82.95%)
King K. Rool: 58 (54, 38, 15, 85.98%)
Skull Kid: 50.5 (40, 29, 4, 94.52%)

A Tier
Saki: 45.5 (41, 27, 9, 88.31%)
Bowser Jr.: 45 (48, 34, 20, 80.39%)
Sukapon: 41 (46, 36, 23, 78.10%)
Masked Man: 37 (30, 24, 5, 91.53%)
Sami: 32 (42, 14, 17, 76.39%)
Ray: 30.5 (21, 19, 0, 100.00%)

B Tier
Dixie: 27 (41, 38, 33, 70.54%)
Paper Mario: 26.5 (30, 37, 22, 75.28%)
Tom Nook: 25 (24, 22, 10, 82.14%)
Andy: 19 (18, 20, 9, 80.43%)
Samurai Goroh: 17 (14, 28, 11, 79.25%)

C Tier
Ninten: 14.5 (11, 11, 2, 91.67%)
Lip: 9 (4, 10, 0, 100.00%)
Toad: 9 (24, 22, 26, 63.89%)
Waluigi: 8.5 (34, 31, 41, 61.32%)
Hector: 8.5 (15, 21, 17, 67.92%)
Tetra: 5.5 (11, 15, 13, 66.67%)

D Tier
Ballon Fighter: 4 (1, 8, 1, 90.00%)
Slippy: 3 (5, 4, 4, 69.23%)
Red / Pokemon Trainer: 2 (8, 4, 8, 60.00%)
Young Link: 0.5 (4, 3, 5, 58.33%)
Plusle & Minun: -4 (6, 8, 14, 50.00%)

F Tier
Toon Zelda: -8.5 (7, 7, 19, 42.42%)
Krystal: -9 (14, 30, 38, 53.66%)
Gray Fox: -10 (3, 2, 14, 26.32%)
Pichu: -12 (42, 26, 67, 50.00%)

Sonic Tier
Tails: -25 (18, 22, 54, 42.55%)
Knuckles: -30 (17, 14, 54, 36.47%)
Shadow: -48.5 (17, 11, 71, 28.28%)



Notable mentions:

• Ninten, Balloon Fighter, Slippy, Young Link, and Gray Fox join the ranks.
• Saki jumps to the top of A rank
• Ray is still going strong with no negative votes, 100% approval rating
• Lip is currently the same way as Ray, 100% approval rating
• Skull Kid soars up into the S Tier with all the other higher ups.

I too, have some down votes to add.
-1 to:
Lyn: Because Fire Emblem isn't in dire need of a character if it's going to be another swordsman.

Skull Kid: Zelda's already got a decent main antagonist fighter.

Masked Man: As much as I enjoy the potential he could have, his (Spoiler Alert) twin brother Lucas has a costume that resembles him already, that wouldn't be good for player recognition.

Dixie: She would be a fine addition, but with only so many clone slots, the DK franchise doesn't need another protagonist.

Toad: he isn't the best choice to be a Mario representative, and there's enough Mario representatives anyway.

Hector: not as recognizable as the rest of the swordsmen in the Fire Emblem series. If I were to ask my friends "Who's Hector"? They probably wouldn't be able to point him out on any Fire Emblem game cases. As cool as an Axe would be.

Balloon Fighter: His main attacks in games are to pop other balloons, and he dies when his balloons pop.

Poke Trainer: his main Pokémon are independent, and without any proper main Pokémon, he can't really fight.

 

[JCOnyx]

Yes im voting for lip and only lip

That's what I assumed and I already counted it as such, thanks for confirming though. Bumped Lip up a couple spots because of the sudden influx of votes, keep them coming. We need more flowering based strategies, Olimar and Ivy aren't enough.

 

[Banjodorf]

Aren't you only allowed 5 downvotes?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I too, have some down votes to add.
-1 to:
Lyn: Because Fire Emblem isn't in dire need of a character if it's going to be another swordsman. Female/Samurai or not, Lyn wouldn't really do much that the rest of the swordsmen cannot do.

Skull Kid: Zelda's already got a decent main antagonist fighter, and I'm pretty sure most people don't even know what Skull Kid could really do offensively. He's a wizard who runs from fights, not really joins them.

Masked Man: As much as I enjoy the potential he could have, his (Spoiler Alert) twin brother Lucas has a costume that resembles him already, that wouldn't be good for player recognition.

Sami: If she's gonna be a female Rambo with guns, she's gonna have a problem being spammy. If she uses explosives, she fills a niche too similar to Snake. If she sends tanks and stuff to fight for her, she sounds like she fills a role too similar to Triple D.

Andy: Same as above for the tank building. Repairing/building things shouldn't be your mode of thinking in a fighting game.

Ray: #size.

Actually, even if they brought his size up, he seems a bit overpowered as it is for having a jetpack and a raygun. If he were to have even more upgrades to build a move set, I could see him being either over or underpowered.

Dixie: She would be a fine addition, but with only so many clone slots, the DK franchise doesn't need another protagonist.

Tom Nook: he could warrant a C&D from Nintendo if he were to do the same moves the Villager does in Sm4sh.

Toad: he isn't the best choice to be a Mario representative, and there's enough Mario representatives anyway.

Hector: not as recognizable as the rest of the swordsmen in the Fire Emblem series. If I were to ask my friends "Who's Hector"? They probably wouldn't be able to point him out on any Fire Emblem game cases. As cool as an Axe would be.

Balloon Fighter: His main attacks in games are to pop other balloons, and he dies when his balloons pop, I can't even make a moveset out of that.

Poke Trainer: his main Pokémon are independent, and without any proper main Pokémon, he can't really fight. And being able to randomly spawn Pokemon would be a little overpowered if they decided to do that.

I'd go on, but the rest of the Tiers have characters that are voted badly for obvious reasons.

Select Pikachu and hold R.

I have some downvotes to add:
Lyn - Too many Fire Emblem characters, Lyn is not very noteworthy among them. Too many sword users too.
Hector - ^
Dark Samus - We don't need a palette swap. I don't care how little effort it takes, if a character isn't noteworthy or interesting, don't even bother.
Bowser Jr - Too many Many Mario characters, and he's not that special.
Skull Kid - Zelda has enough representation, and even then I would choose Midna or Impa first. Skull Kid has only appeared in one game (you can say the same for Sheik but that was mother****ing Ocarina of Time, the pinnacle of all Zelda games, Majora's Mask isn't nearly as important)
Masked Man - Already a costume. Mother isn't important enough for two reps let alone three.
Ninten - Too much Mother, would work better as a Ness costume.
Toad - He's already with Peach, and his only talent is picking up turnips faster. Too much Mario
Paper Mario - This may be judgemental, but I don't want another flat character. Too much Mario. Of all the Mario RPGs, Paper Marios are some of the worst.
Samurai Goroh - None of the F-Zero characters are all that interesting, he's perfect as an assist trophy (I'm indifferent on Black Shadow/Ganondorf).
Tetra - Too much Zelda.
Toon Zelda - She was cut from Brawl for a reason.
Pokemon Trainer - Too much Pokemon (instead he should be summoned as the Pokemon's final Smash and throw a bunch of Pokeballs heheh)
Pulse & Minun - Too many Pokemon.
Krystal - The worst Star Fox character, from the worst game. Too much Star Fox. The only space animal I need is Slippy.
Tails - No third party characters. This also applies to:
Knuckles
Shadow
Deepthroat
Roy Campbell
Otocon
Anyone from Sonic or Metal Gear
That assist trophy from Sim City

Just asking for a little perspective.
Are you guys truly AGAINST (not indifferent to) every character you listed?
Or were you guys just rattling off names you don't support?

If it's the latter, then down votes are a little unwarranted.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

I too, have some down votes to add.
-1 to:

Ray: #size.

Actually, even if they brought his size up, he seems a bit overpowered as it is for having a jetpack and a raygun. If he were to have even more upgrades to build a move set, I could see him being either over or underpowered.

Having options doesn't make a character overpowered. ROB uses a boost style up b similar in a sense to a jet pack; also, Fox and Falco have access to their neutral b rayguns. Try not to consider a character as overpowered/underpowered unless they're implemented into the game...any less would be overspeculating which will just cloud your decisions and your votes. Size is pretty arguable in this case but I will say this: pokemon has proved to me that sizes are bs. If you compare the sizes you find in a pokedex to the pokemon currently in the Project M this proves that size isn't a factor in this mod. Other than that all your -1 votes seem fine in terms of opinion

 

[CBO0tz]

Just asking for a little perspective.
Are you guys truly AGAINST (not indifferent to) every character you listed?
Or were you guys just rattling off names you don't support?

If it's the latter, then down votes are a little unwarranted.

Just one thing, you can vote down as many characters you want, correct? Not just 5, like the ones you vote up?

And depends on how far AGAINST goes.
I'm against characters that are either adding techniques and tools we already know how to use, ones that are protagonists when their franchise is already using enough good guys, and ones that I can't see having movesets that are able to be balanced with the rest of the cast.
Some of the characters I down voted had qualities I liked, don't get me wrong. But I'm looking for balance with choosing these characters.

 

[Banjodorf]

I don't see "I can't see them having a moveset I can't think of" as a very valid reason when the PMBR can probably get pretty creative as a team, to be perfectly honest.

 

[JCOnyx]

Exactly. Serious guys, if all of these characters would ruin P:M for you, how do you guys ever enjoy anything? Here are the rules again real quick just to give you guys a refresher.

Unofficial Polling

So that we have better evidence of what the community is thinking, a tally of votes will be kept to debate which characters are most desired for the five remaining clone slots. The following are the voting rules:


1. Each unique poster can vote up to 5 characters. They will be tallied for 1 point each. Note: users may not change these five votes unless for some reason that character becomes disqualified. Pick your votes wisely. You don't need to use all your votes at once, you may always wait and add them in later.

2. Each unique poster can then vote for any number of characters after that. They will be tallied for 1/2 point each. The idea is that if you had to choose 5, you'd give more weight to those.

3. Each unique poster can down vote any number of characters. Only down vote if you're actually AGAINST the character being in. If you're indifferent, just don't vote on that character. This will be also be tallied on a separate count rather than subtracting against the up votes. This is to differentiate actual opposition from just indifference to a character. Note: From now on, it is required to give an explanation (it doesn't have to be long, it can be brief as long as it's reasonable) for all anti votes. Otherwise they won't be tallied. This is to try to keep things honest and not use these votes to play the numbers.

4. That means characters you're indifferent on... just don't vote. You can say if you're indifferent to the idea though, and we can tally that so we have a more complete picture.


This way we can have a good barometer on what the community is thinking. Because unlike SSB4, the PMBR is here and they might actually listen. And this game is for the community. So if a character is only attracting 50% popularity or less, it will probably not be worth the PMBR's effort.

If you are truly against these characters and they would make you not want to pick this game up again, then by all means, downvote them. But if you are neutral towards their inclusion, do not. It's that simple. From an outside perspective, it looks like you guys are just downvoting the other characters to move yours farther up the list, which is why we implemented the explanation rule in the first place.

Just one thing, you can vote down as many characters you want, correct? Not just 5, like the ones you vote up?

And depends on how far AGAINST goes.
I'm against characters that are either adding techniques and tools we already know how to use, ones that are protagonists when their franchise is already using enough good guys, and ones that I can't see having movesets that are able to be balanced with the rest of the cast.
Some of the characters I down voted had qualities I liked, don't get me wrong. But I'm looking for balance with choosing these characters.

Do NOT worry about balance. I tried speculating characters based on their potential balancing issues and Cmart of the PMBR came in and just laughed at us. They can easily handle balancing themselves and it should not be a concern of ours when discussing possible characters for the clone engine. Just a heads up.

 

[arcticfox8]

I remember Cmart's intervention
haven't heard from that guy since
But that man is a ****ing hero

 

[JCOnyx]

Didn't we just hear from him again not too long ago though? Didn't he explain that the 700 hours for Mewtwo was just on animating and not balancing/playtesting. It could have even left out modeling if I recall correctly.

 

[CBO0tz]

I don't see "I can't see them having a moveset I can't think of" as a very valid reason when the PMBR can probably get pretty creative as a team, to be perfectly honest.

If they're too creative, that takes like a thousand hours to make something happen.
I personally look for characters with a reasonable amount of interesting unique abilities, and can back it up with a notable reputation.
Advance Wars reps like Andy got the reputation, but the ability to use tanks or turrets as minions isn't really much. Yeah they could make up new abilities for him, but essentially building a base out of tanks and turrets is a little bit turtleish and out of since with the strictly offensive fighting style the rest of Smash has.
The best example I can think of for comparing this 'style' to is Balloon Fighter. His weakness in his game is those balloons. No character in Smash has a weakness per se, as they all take damage. You could make those balloons a really effective hotbox, but then how would he attack for like, everything he does? -float- at people? It just doesn't feel right.
You can argue my down votes are unwarranted, but I did think of reasons for every character why they shouldn't take a clone slot.

 

[Shin F.]

I'm a bit late, but I want to reiterate what Alf and JCOnyx have said. Down votes are only to be used for characters who would truly ruin the game for you, not just characters you don't like or that you're neutral toward. Note that it says reasons for downvotes do, in fact, have to be reasonable. Saying that a character would be too overpowered or underpowered is not a reason, nor is being unable to imagine a moveset. With the very large lists of downvotes here, well, as it's been said -

From an outside perspective, it looks like you guys are just downvoting the other characters to move yours farther up the list, which is why we implemented the explanation rule in the first place.

Now, votes against a character for being in a well-repped series are fine, but it does look pretty bad if you up-vote characters from another well-repped series.

To give an example, something like this:

Skull Kid: Zelda's already got a decent main antagonist fighter

is a fair reason. You feel like the villains of Zelda are well-repped already and don't need any more? That's fine.

Something like this:

and I'm pretty sure most people don't even know what Skull Kid could really do offensively. He's a wizard who runs from fights, not really joins them.

is not. Peach, for instance, is a classic damsel in distress, but she'll beat the crap out of anyone in Smash. And having no idea what moveset they could have doesn't mean anything. Characters like Balloon Fighter and Skull Kid have, in fact, had movesets thought up - very original and fun ones, at that.

As another example:

Toad - He's already with Peach,

This is a decent reason for a downvote. It could influence the moveset of another character, which wouldn't be received well. Some might counter that he could be changed to Toadsworth, but I would accept this reasoning.

and his only talent is picking up turnips faster.

This I would not accept as a good reason, especially since it's well-known that Toad could have many other abilities from unused Mario power-ups.


All that said, just be careful with your down-votes. They're to be saved for characters that would truly ruin the game for you. That doesn't mean they won't be counted or anything like that, but it's important that you really consider if the character is truly worth it.

 

[CBO0tz]

I'm a bit late, but I want to reiterate what Alf and JCOnyx have said. Down votes are only to be used for characters who would truly ruin the game for you, not just characters you don't like or that you're neutral toward. Note that it says reasons for downvotes do, in fact, have to be reasonable. Saying that a character would be too overpowered or underpowered is not a reason, nor is being unable to imagine a moveset. With the very large lists of downvotes here, well, as it's been said -

Now, votes against a character for being in a well-repped series are fine, but it does look pretty bad if you up-vote characters from another well-repped series.

To give an example, something like this:

is a fair reason. You feel like the villains of Zelda are well-repped already and don't need any more? That's fine.

Something like this:

is not. Peach, for instance, is a classic damsel in distress, but she'll beat the crap out of anyone in Smash. And having no idea what moveset they could have doesn't mean anything. Characters like Balloon Fighter and Skull Kid have, in fact, had movesets thought up - very original and fun ones, at that.

As another example:

This is a decent reason for a downvote. It could influence the moveset of another character, which wouldn't be received well. Some might counter that he could be changed to Toadsworth, but I would accept this reasoning.

This I would not accept as a good reason, especially since it's well-known that Toad could have many other abilities from unused Mario power-ups.


All that said, just be careful with your down-votes. They're to be saved for characters that would truly ruin the game for you.

Alright, I see.

 

[JCOnyx]

By the way, found that post by Cmart I was thinking of.

It was only 9 pages back, that's quite the short memory you got there Arctic

 

[ZeruSlayer]

You can argue my down votes are unwarranted, but I did think of reasons for every character why they shouldn't take a clone slot.

Your downvote for Ray was unjustified

 

[Banjodorf]

If they're too creative, that takes like a thousand hours to make something happen.
I personally look for characters with a reasonable amount of interesting unique abilities, and can back it up with a notable reputation.
Advance Wars reps like Andy got the reputation, but the ability to use tanks or turrets as minions isn't really much. Yeah they could make up new abilities for him, but essentially building a base out of tanks and turrets is a little bit turtleish and out of since with the strictly offensive fighting style the rest of Smash has.
The best example I can think of for comparing this 'style' to is Balloon Fighter. His weakness in his game is those balloons. No character in Smash has a weakness per se, as they all take damage. You could make those balloons a really effective hotbox, but then how would he attack for like, everything he does? -float- at people? It just doesn't feel right.
You can argue my down votes are unwarranted, but I did think of reasons for every character why they shouldn't take a clone slot.

Why don't you let the PMBR worry about making the actual movesets work, and balancing the characters, rather than trying to do it for them and using that as a reason against characters others support, especially when the thread has already been told not to do that.

For these two particular characters, you bring up some interesting ideas, but again, these are two out of a massive list you gave, and downvotes aren't something to do lightly in this thread.

 

[Kazyx]

[Most Wanted]

• Waluigi (Mario Bros / Wario?)
  WAAAHHH!! When will he appear in anything OTHER than a party game!?
• Ridley (Metroid)
  But he's too big!
• Ray MK III (Custom Robo)
  From that overlooked series a lot of people know about, but most people never played.

• Saki Amamiya (Sin and Punishment)
  The guy who I always thought was a girl

• Black Shadow (F-Zero) and Ganondorf(Legend of Zelda)
  A two-in-one package where the current Falcon-clone Ganondorf will be reskinned to his arch nemesis Black Shadow, and the clone slot will be used to recreate Ganondorf using available models

[1/2 Point Votes]

• Paper Mario (Paper Mario)Like Game & Watch, but color
• Bowser Jr. (Super Mario)Bowser's kid who's been trying to make it big in the Mario games
• Pichu (Pokémon)Because he's a veteran
• Pokémon Trainer / Red (Pokémon)If he could fight on his own...
• King K. Rool (Donkey Kong)The main villain of Donkey Kong
• Skull Kid (Legend of Zelda)Recurring character and villain of Majora's Mask
• Samurai Goroh (F-Zero)The second most popular F-Zero character.
• Dark Samus (Metroid)The other big Metroid villain
• Lyn (Fire Emblem)A popular female FE lord
• Isaac (Golden Sun)"..."

[Anti-Votes]
The entirety of the Sonic-related cast (Tails, Knuckles, & Shadow)
Whether they'd be clones or not, I'm strongly against 3rd-party franchises being over-represented. They should stick to the one Assist Trophy and one Character Slot. I feel anything more is just too much. If we want to add 3rd-Party characters, then we choose a different franchise at the least, and a different 3rd-Party company at the most.

 

[caldw19940]

I too, have some down votes to add.
-1 to:
Lyn: Because Fire Emblem isn't in dire need of a character if it's going to be another swordsman. Female/Samurai or not, Lyn wouldn't really do much that the rest of the swordsmen cannot do.

Skull Kid: Zelda's already got a decent main antagonist fighter, and I'm pretty sure most people don't even know what Skull Kid could really do offensively. He's a wizard who runs from fights, not really joins them.

Masked Man: As much as I enjoy the potential he could have, his (Spoiler Alert) twin brother Lucas has a costume that resembles him already, that wouldn't be good for player recognition.

Sami: If she's gonna be a female Rambo with guns, she's gonna have a problem being spammy. If she uses explosives, she fills a niche too similar to Snake. If she sends tanks and stuff to fight for her, she sounds like she fills a role too similar to Triple D.

Andy: Same as above for the tank building. Repairing/building things shouldn't be your mode of thinking in a fighting game.

Ray: #size.

Actually, even if they brought his size up, he seems a bit overpowered as it is for having a jetpack and a raygun. If he were to have even more upgrades to build a move set, I could see him being either over or underpowered.

Dixie: She would be a fine addition, but with only so many clone slots, the DK franchise doesn't need another protagonist.

Tom Nook: he could warrant a C&D from Nintendo if he were to do the same moves the Villager does in Sm4sh.

Toad: he isn't the best choice to be a Mario representative, and there's enough Mario representatives anyway.

Hector: not as recognizable as the rest of the swordsmen in the Fire Emblem series. If I were to ask my friends "Who's Hector"? They probably wouldn't be able to point him out on any Fire Emblem game cases. As cool as an Axe would be.

Balloon Fighter: His main attacks in games are to pop other balloons, and he dies when his balloons pop, I can't even make a moveset out of that.


Poke Trainer: his main Pokémon are independent, and without any proper main Pokémon, he can't really fight. And being able to randomly spawn Pokemon would be a little overpowered if they decided to do that.

I'd go on, but the rest of the Tiers have characters that are voted badly for obvious reasons.

How exactly is the size of Ray an issue for this game when
- Kirby is only 8 iches tall
- Olimar is barely bigger than the size of a bottlecap
- ROB's only real height is the toy of him
- Bowser ranges from a few inches tall to Ridley sized
- Charizard is made significantly taller since in Pokemon he's only 5ft7 (to put that in perspective, that's the same height as Little Mac who's 5ft 7 in Punch out Wii)
- Lucario isn't even 4ft tall yet was bumped upto be tall enough to be considered a middleweight
- Mewtwo is 6ft7 which is much taller than Samus and half the heavyweights...this could go on for every character in the game who has confirmed heights or heights you can compare to things in real life.

 

[Camc10]

I'm only voting for lip at the moment.

 

[Solbliminal]

@ CBO0tz Just going to throw in my two cents on this subject of your down-votes. While you are entitled an infinite amount of down-votes, it is incredibly unreasonable to down-vote for things that ultimately should only be the concerns of the PMBR development team. Based of your overall reasoning, you are putting the concerns of the PMBR on your shoulders to dictate your votes, as well as highly contradicting arguments. To simplify things that have been said:


-Scale is irrelevant. Especially in the context of a non-canon game like Smash. Characters like Kirby and Olimar were scaled up. Ganondorf was scaled down, even against his canonical height comparison to Link.

-Balance is not something to be concerned about. PMBR decides how to balance the characters. It is hardly something to stress about when balance is ultimately decided from hands on experience. And since these characters are not already in the game, it is pointless to even bring up.

-Just because you can't see a moveset in a character does not mean it is impossible. A character like Balloon Fighter has just as much source material to work from as Ice Climbers and Pit. But even then it is hardly relevant, since characters like Captain Falcon, Sheik, R.O.B., Fox, and even Pac-Man had little to no source material from their own games to make a full fledged moveset. Don't let your own lack of imagination be the deciding factor of how you vote.

-C&D guidelines have already been given to the community by the PMBR. The only characters that should even be concerned about in this regard are 3rd party and characters who already appear playable in Smash 4. Comparing characters to those in Smash 4 is completely pointless. PMBR has already stated that they will personally avoid anything that can be seen as a potential C&D. That includes avoiding content comparable to Smash 4.

 

[CBO0tz]

@ CBO0tz Just going to throw in my two cents on this subject of your down-votes. While you are entitled an infinite amount of down-votes, it is incredibly unreasonable to down-vote for things that ultimately should only be the concerns of the PMBR development team. Based of your overall reasoning, you are putting the concerns of the PMBR on your shoulders to dictate your votes, as well as highly contradicting arguments. To simplify things that have been said:

-Scale is irrelevant. Especially in the context of a non-canon game like Smash. Characters like Kirby and Olimar were scaled up. Ganondorf was scaled down, even against his canonical height comparison to Link.

-Balance is not something to be concerned about. PMBR decides how to balance the characters. It is hardly something to stress about when balance is ultimately decided from hands on experience. And since these characters are not already in the game, it is pointless to even bring up.

-Just because you can't see a moveset in a character does not mean it is impossible. A character like Balloon Fighter has just as much source material to work from as Ice Climbers and Pit. But even then it is hardly relevant, since characters like Captain Falcon, Sheik, R.O.B., Fox, and even Pac-Man had little to no source material from their own games to make a full fledged moveset. Don't let your own lack of imagination be the deciding factor of how you vote.

-C&D guidelines have already been given to the community by the PMBR. The only characters that should even be concerned about in this regard are 3rd party and characters who already appear playable in Smash 4. Comparing characters to those in Smash 4 is completely pointless. PMBR has already stated that they will personally avoid anything that can be seen as a potential C&D. That includes avoiding content comparable to Smash 4.

Alright, I edited my post of downvotes since I shouldn't have put the worries of the PMBR in my own judgment. Also I didn't really think of a good reason to down vote Ray. But in my defense I was up until 4, so my train of thought was probably not where it usually was. I feel as though apologies are needed. I'll leave the brainstorming for character moves to myself.

 

[caldw19940]

Just throwing this out but I made a height chart out of boredom comparing how characters would look going by accurate height measurements in Smash for a few characters to put things in perspective for anyone thinking height is a factor in who should be in the roster :V

You might have to zoom in on a few but you get the idea.

By the way for anyone curious Other M Ridley is about 14 Feet since he's just over twice as tall as Samus so he'd only be a little bit taller than Ganon in this image. The smallest version of Ridley is about as tall as Ganon.