New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Empyrean]

Ganondorf is perhaps one of my most favorite characters in P:M (even in Brawl), mainly because his moves are so slow yet satisfying to connect, like literally every move. Gotta love dat SideB!

That being said, I wouldn't mind if he got a stance change, but I definitely don't like the Black Shadow/Ganon idea. If anything is to be done with Dorf at this point, I say go with the stance change or nuthin.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Stance change > Blackondorf any day.

If the sword provides a bigger range, then the drawback to this could be the cool down time after each sword attack.
Mix this up with some "unconventional" attacks such as a Fair that pierces forward (hard to land hits) to make up for the range advantage.
Start up time is also a factor that could be used in exchange for the range advantage.

 

[Solbliminal]

Oh hey! It's Strider's level 3 hyper combo~

 

[Banjodorf]

Unnecessarily giving characters more options can easily tip the balance of a lot of matchups.

I don't think it would be in anyone's best interest to add it simply because it gives Ganon more options.

But I think you know that already.

It could. But Ganon is probably the only character in PM that isn't viable at a high level. If they tweaked the moveset so it had less power, but maintained its range, it could easily be a good option for him. Besides, it still has some if the same problems:

- Horribly gimp able recovery
-Poor vertical/horizontal recovery
-Difficulty closing gaps

I mean, the PMBR can tweak it, but I honestly only see it helping Ganon a little, while adding multiple layers of fun for existing Ganon players.

 

[trojanpooh]

If they modified it so one was slower / more damage and one was faster / less damage, I'd be okay with it being a thing. Or if Sword Ganon wasn't taunted into and had to be Z-ed into like Giga Bowser so you wouldn't switch mid fight.

Sword Ganon's range for the same amount of damage / knockback basically is too OP without some sort of drawback.

No modifying of old Ganon. It's not fair to the fans to change him just because a bunch of people who don't play as him want him to have a sword.

 

[Ginge]

I'm not saying to fully modify him. But if it there was an option to hold down Z at the character select screen to give him a sword for casual play (that was completely not tournament legal), it'd be alright.

I know the Ganon players are very vocal about not wanting their character touched. But a non-invasive solution like that could be cool.

 

[Marthmario]

I guess the Lyn talk went cold... Anyone up for her being a sheik clone?

 

[Zzuxon]

Top 5:
Toad
Sukapon
Ridley
Paper Mario
De Cloned Ganondorf

Others:
Tom Nook.
Waluigi
Skull Kid

 

[Ginge]

I think most of the people supporting Lyn would be okay with her in any form with any moveset

Sheik clone could work well. And I discussed my thoughts on the key things that would need to be changed last night if you want to look at that post to add on / develop further.

 

[Sharic X]

It sent me to the past.

 

[Tuvillo]

Is it possible to have a character with ranged moves as normal attacks? Lots of fighting games have such a character- One whose main weapon is a Bow/Gun and does not use anything else. You'd really only need one article (arrow) for the entire character and have lots of interesting new ideas to implement on Lyn.

Of course she'd still be a Sword user, but I sense some interesting refreshing ideas here that would make her not "just another sword user" (Dair an arrow shot downwards for example)

 

[red9rd]

 

[Sharic X]

Is it possible to have a character with ranged moves as normal attacks? Lots of fighting games have such a character- One whose main weapon is a Bow/Gun and does not use anything else. You'd really only need one article (arrow) for the entire character and have lots of interesting new ideas to implement on Lyn.

The thing is, in Smash Bros., all standard attacks are the punch/kick/etc. type attack. That would make the character odd and it just might not work. If an enemy is right next to you, you have to wait for the animation to happen, then the character shoots. If the person fighting you is Fox, Link, Mario, [insert character name here], you're pretty much screwed if your character will only have ranged moves.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Is it possible to have a character with ranged moves as normal attacks? Lots of fighting games have such a character- One whose main weapon is a Bow/Gun and does not use anything else. You'd really only need one article (arrow) for the entire character and have lots of interesting new ideas to implement on Lyn.

The thing is, in Smash Bros., all standard attacks are the punch/kick/etc. type attack. That would make the character odd and it just might not work. If an enemy is right next to you, you have to wait for the animation to happen, then the character shoots. If the person fighting you is Fox, Link, Mario, [insert character name here], you're pretty much screwed if your character will only have ranged moves.

Mega Man plays this way in Smash 4 (shoots lemons on his jab and nair, and a charge shot for his forward smash). Additionally, the Villager fires his slingshot for his bair. I think it might be too hard to do for the clone engine though...

EDIT: I just realized the formatting was weird there, oops.

 

[Ginge]

I think the exciting thing about the Ganon/Sword-Ganon mod is the idea of extending a character to have a secondary moveset without wasting another character slot. For instance: Wario having both his Wario Land and Wario Ware movesets on one character.



So new question posed to the group: would any other characters benefit from a mod like this either to a subset of their moves or all of their moves? I know Snake fans would like the option to switch between tranqs and rockets

 

[AnOkayDM]

So new question posed to the group: would any other characters benefit from a mod like this either to a subset of their moves or all of their moves? I know Snake fans would like the option to switch between tranqs and rockets

Toon Link. Either Young Link fans could quit whining and get his moveset back, or Toonie could have the option to have a more WW-esque moveset.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

I'm not saying to fully modify him. But if it there was an option to hold down Z at the character select screen to give him a sword for casual play (that was completely not tournament legal), it'd be alright.

I know the Ganon players are very vocal about not wanting their character touched. But a non-invasive solution like that could be cool.

I was thinking that his Utilt and Nair could be the two moves that utilized his sword, since they're not often used in competitive play as far as I know. If I'm wrong please do correct me on that one though.

It would be awesome to give him a neutral B reminiescent of his OoT energy ball attacks as well (but it's impossible to add projectiles ;__

 

[GunBlaze]

I think the exciting thing about the Ganon/Sword-Ganon mod is the idea of extending a character to have a secondary moveset without wasting another character slot. For instance: Wario having both his Wario Land and Wario Ware movesets on one character.



So new question posed to the group: would any other characters benefit from a mod like this either to a subset of their moves or all of their moves? I know Snake fans would like the option to switch between tranqs and rockets

Or Falco

 

[shinhed-echi]

Heh, well.. stance change Sheik where she plays just like in OoT, with harp-based movesets.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I was thinking about making Sheik and Zelda taunt transformable but then I realized that we can`t risk buffing Sheik anymore then she already has been.

 

[Saito]

It could. But Ganon is probably the only character in PM that isn't viable at a high level.

Source.

I'm pretty sure all of the characters in this game are viable at high level play, or else the PMBR would be doing something about that specific character.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

There really are plenty of ways to give Ganon sword capabilities.
Fsmash could become an optional two-part attack, first the elbow bash followed by a spin attack with his sword, very similar to an attack he uses in the TP final battle. The idea is that they wouldn't chain into each other at all, and the first hit would be just as powerful. The main purpose would be to follow up on an opponent that got their shield up in time but was too slow acting out of it. Best of all, it doesn't interfere at all with the existing moveset. A similar path could be taken with ftilt, by giving it an optional follow-up stab.
Nair could be a double sword slash, also taken from the TP final battle, essentially with identical (or slightly improved) frames, power, and hitboxes, only disjoint. It could also be a kick-sword combo, where Ganon draws his blade during the kick and slashes in place of the second. A similar path could be taken with usmash or dsmash, although the animation would likely be more awkward.
Utilt could be a similarly functioning, overhead two-handed sword strike
He really should get something that remotely resembles one of his magic attacks in OoT, as well, probably in place of Warlock Punch.

 

[Banjodorf]

@Saito

Well I can't give evidence to that point aside from personal experience, but I also can't find any evidence to the contrary. The point still stands however that it'd solve the problem of having to use a clone slot on it, and if they wanted, they could just make it so you had to choose one mode before starting a match. or that you couldn't switch back to it, whatever.

There are ways to do it that could make everyone happy. And it's a great mod that needs to see the light of day.

 

[Anti Guy]

I guess the Lyn talk went cold... Anyone up for her being a sheik clone?

I don't understand the talk of Lyn being a Sheik clone.

Clones have nothing to do with the speed or anything, so that should not be a factor. Is it because of Sheik's needles? Because she's a ninja? Lyn is NOT a ninja. And the most important thing is none of her attacks and animations would even resemble Sheik's. Sheik doesn't even have a sword. So you might as well be cloning Luigi or something.

Ike, on the other hand, is a much better model. You can use many of his animations and just make the physics faster, lighter, and more elegant. If you want to realize ManlySpirit's ideas about her sword draw, you can make the smash attack starting animations look all the same, but then come out differently.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I don't understand the talk of Lyn being a Sheik clone.

Clones have nothing to do with the speed or anything, so that should not be a factor. Is it because of Sheik's needles? Because she's a ninja? Lyn is NOT a ninja. And the most important thing is none of her attacks and animations would even resemble Sheik's. Sheik doesn't even have a sword. So you might as well be cloning Luigi or something.

Ike, on the other hand, is a much better model. You can use many of his animations and just make the physics faster, lighter, and more elegant. If you want to realize ManlySpirit's ideas about her sword draw, you can make the smash attack starting animations look all the same, but then come out differently.

Earlier, I suggested enlarging Shiek's needles to use as arrows for Lyn's bow. They look almost EXACTLY like some of the arrow sprites in FE6-8 and I imagine Lyn's arrows functioning like stronger needles as well.
The Shiek route would only be optimal if they wanted to incorporate her bow though. Otherwise, cloning off of Shiek like you said is just like cloning off of anyone else.

 

[Anti Guy]

Earlier, I suggested enlarging Shiek's needles to use as arrows for Lyn's bow. They look almost EXACTLY like some of the arrow sprites in FE6-8 and I imagine Lyn's arrows functioning like stronger needles as well.
The Shiek route would only be optimal if they wanted to incorporate her bow though. Otherwise, cloning off of Shiek like you said is just like cloning off of anyone else.

You shouldn't pick a base just for a single attack. And if you really just wanted the bow, then Pit would be better. From what I understand, the animations are so, so, so much more important that it's not even funny.

Also, Lyn doesn't even need a bow. It's like a secondary weapon that she gains after promotion, but it's not like it's a core part of her character. Just like how Mario has different powerups like Raccoon Mario; it doesn't mean we have to use them.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

You shouldn't pick a base just for a single attack. And if you really just wanted the bow, then Pit would be better. From what I understand, the animations are so, so, so much more important that it's not even funny.

Also, Lyn doesn't even need a bow. It's like a secondary weapon that she gains after promotion, but it's not like it's a core part of her character. Just like how Mario has different powerups like Raccoon Mario; it doesn't mean we have to use them.

I don't see how Pit's bow would be a better option, considering FE arrows aren't bolts of energy.
In the Clone Engine blog post, they said they first pick a character to clone based on what articles are most desirable. They obviously didn't clone Mewtwo off of Lucario for animations. They only picked Lucario for 2 attacks (aura sphere and command grab). That's why in my movesets (which may or may not be good/viable), I based them off of characters only for what articles they could offer.
But like you said, Lyn doesn't need a bow. It's definitely not a defining point of her character.
However, the option is still there, and is still a possibility until we get more info.

 

[Ginge]

He's not referring the the energy bolt. The physical animation of drawing a bow and releasing could be used with a different projectile instead of a beam of light. That's what he means by the animations matching.

 

[randomnerdchris]

You shouldn't pick a base just for a single attack. And if you really just wanted the bow, then Pit would be better. From what I understand, the animations are so, so, so much more important that it's not even funny.

Also, Lyn doesn't even need a bow. It's like a secondary weapon that she gains after promotion, but it's not like it's a core part of her character. Just like how Mario has different powerups like Raccoon Mario; it doesn't mean we have to use them.

I disagree promotion is permanent unlike power ups and it thus becomes the default playable state. Plus aren't articles the only thing that you can't add in the clone engine so really the number of articles i. e. needles is the most important thing.

 

[Marthmario]

Idk guys Sheik just seemed to have the motions down.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

He's not referring the the energy bolt. The physical animation of drawing a bow and releasing could be used with a different projectile instead of a beam of light. That's what he means by the animations matching.

That's the thing with articles. You can't just use a different projectile. The projectile itself is what they need to clone for, with a few exceptions.

 

[Ginge]

That's the thing with articles. You can't just use a different projectile. The projectile itself is what they need to clone for, with a few exceptions.

Did not know that. Then what about Link for his arrows?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Did not know that. Then what about Link for his arrows?

It's possible, but I like Shiek's needles more, for their appearance and how they can be fired. They travel MUCH faster, they don't need to be charged, and they can be shot at an angle in the air, which I think suits Lyn perfectly.

 

[Chzrm3]

Yeah, I mean even if you base Lyn off Ike you still need to redo a ton of those animations. Like I was saying before, there's no way she can just retain his fsmash and that makes any kind of sense.

I also do like the idea of her having the bow. Maybe it wasn't a part of the character everyone saw, but I think that's okay considering some characters don't even use their own moves. It also gives her another interesting point of distinction. Marth is a pure swordsman, Roy is swords + fire, Ike is a really brolic swordsman, and then Lyn is a nimble swordswoman (lol) with a bow. That's kind of a cool angle, and even though it's not the best representation of all the different FE classes, it does paint a sort of picture, haha.

There are also a few Sheik attacks that would fit pretty well. I could totally see nair staying the same, for example, and even bair/uair. I like the idea of Lyn as this character that uses her sword less frequently than the other characters, and kind of only when it's going to be very powerful (smash attacks and specials, for example).

I dunno. If she's based off Ike, which animations do you think you can retain? Certainly not the smash attacks. I'm thinking bair and the tilts, and that's really it. (and probably not uptilt, that's too meaty).

Again, I have no problem with her being based off Ike. I like both those ideas. I just don't think it's as clear cut as basing her off Ike saving tons of time. I think it saves you two-three moves, tops, and you lose out on an interesting option by being unable to ever give her a bow.

edit: lots of posts came in while I wrote this, I was talking to the tomato : >

 

[randomnerdchris]

Did not know that. Then what about Link for his arrows?

Well can you remove articles? If not you'd end up with a lot of useless articles on a Link clone.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Well can you remove articles? If not you'd end up with a lot of useless articles on a Link clone.

I'm positive they can. Otherwise Mewtwo would be much different.

 

[Chzrm3]

Well can you remove articles? If not you'd end up with a lot of useless articles on a Link clone.

I think you always have the option to not use 'em. So if you clone someone off Ness because you like his kit, but you want to change his recovery to be a more standard vertical Up-B, Pika thunder just kind of doesn't get used.

Incidentally, that probably means you can slide it into some other part of the character. Like, this Ness clone does an ftilt and a PK-thunder flies out. (terrible example, but you get the idea haha)

 

[randomnerdchris]

What articles does lucario have over mewtwo?

 

[Starcutter]

What articles does lucario have over mewtwo?

pretty much everything.


what what do you mean like articles? like shadow ball over aura sphere? that kind?

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

What articles does lucario have over mewtwo?

They haven't really clarified what can be considered an article. If Luke's command grab is an article, then i could see his counter and Up-B being potential articles as well.