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To be fair, there wasn't a rule about explaining why you downvoted when this thread was made. That rule has been implemented just recently, which is why I haven't explained my downvotes because at the time it wasn't necessary, although if anti-guy wants an explanation i'd happily give one.
kk. cool w/me. Didn't even want Sandbag that much. It was partially a pity vote anyway.
waitTo be fair, everyone should be allowed to change their votes whenever a new option presents itself. I know it makes it hard on you but it's a price that we are willing to make you pay.
I feel your hype. I can imagine Slippy's dorky frog voice yelling "FIRE" when using his up-B.
I doubt you know the depth of the game, honestly. If you did you would know that any character added would bring variety, regardless of their weapon. And most characters use punching moves FYI, so your statement about adding "variety" is pretty bs, and people don't want more Pokemon because that makes 7 characters from the same franchise
The same reasons have been used after.my votes. (where that rule was applied then) This biased way of dealing with things is quite annoying. I never read much of any posts before mine cept the ones linked in the op. So all my knowledge of this comes after the rules application in voting.
Like I said, not a single speck of intelligence
Youre being extremely childish. We are trying to promote/better the game with what we have to say. We can do without this.
I compared marth to ike to compare two different characters. I couldve simply compared marth to roy if i wanted to. Also did you even read what i said. Heres the quote so you can read again.
Hector could actually have a pretty dope moveset.
Here are some ideas I had for specials. (I would clone him off of Link or Tink, btw)
@_@
In the VERY unlikely case you are unaware, only one of the sprites is actually Hector. Obviously, he could get similar animations though.
How? There is no one in smash that fights like this: (imo she'd be the fastest swordsmen smash has ever seen).
yeah captain falcon, fox, etc. but there are no sword users that are fast, marth comes close, but samurai goroh, takamaru, or lyn can be one of the fastest swordsmen smash has seen, I don't see the problem here.
There's just A LOT more speedy, combo based characters than anything else, and for most of us, that's pretty much the entire essence of what Lyn would bring. She'd be exciting for sure, but I'd rather have Hector at this point.
But isn't PM supposed to be about speed and combos? Anyway, I respect your opinion. Although m2k gets what m2k wants, so don't be surprised if they choose her.
I suggested what? I asked how is lyn's swordstyle in smash already.... when it isn't. I think both can bring alot to the table, but lyn is more likely to be added.
I said, her sword style isn't in smash, yes most characters are quick, but she would be the fastest swordsmen in smash, no one has her playstyle.
With characters like Marth and Meta Knight in the game, having an even faster sword character strikes me as courting disaster. I would like to see Lyn make it in, but not on the basis of "she's faster and better, which makes her unique." I'd much rather see a give and take process inspired by her different style, not just throwing in a frame advantage and calling it a new thing.
Here I like lai sword style and the speed that comes with it, read some of this.
I was actually hoping you'd do that so I'd get a chance to properly defend a character I've supported since preBrawl.
Well, first and foremost, it's not about what a character can bring to the table in terms of what their weapons are, but rather, what they can do as far as what their model/mold or so on allows your imagantion to give them. Now I understand what a riddiculously broad statement that is, so bear with me for a second, and you'll soon understand what I mean by that.
Personally, I think removing Lyn's ability to use bows is the best way to go about it. Actually, her ideal playstyle and the one that meshes the best with what we see in the cannon is that of a speedy close range character. Lightning fast actually. Thus, the best base for Lyn are either Marth or Sheik. I personally vouch for Sheik. Especially since battoujutsu is performed by only drawing the sword to attack, and keeping it sheathed during all other actions.
"Another Sword character" is a bad argument because people are too shallow to look at the inherent design concepts in a character. They see an article and believe that's what defines them. Isaac for example also carries a sword, but his fighting style would be radically different from anything already in Smash as well, using the sword minimally.
Look at this roster really quick:
20% of the roster is sword users, and this is regarded as one of the most diverse and fierce fighters in the industry. And each of those sword users is RADICALLY different from the other. So, if we take away clones (Roy and TLink), we're really left with 4 different sword styles (Marth's, Ike's, Link's, and Meta Knight's - 5 if you wanna add Pit's dual swords). Ultimately, does it REALLY matter so much WHAT a character is using to fight? No, not at all. As sword users, Link, Marth and Meta Knight all play VASTLY different from each other, so really adding Lyn or Isaac in, is a non-issue if you have half a brain. It'd be like complaining about adding *insert character here* because they fight with their fists... How many fist users do we have in Smash? In a way, it kinda goes back to the "representation" arguement.
So now, lets look at what Lyn can bring to the table in terms of fighting style that has NOT been seen in Smash ever before:
Lyn's greatest strength lies in the inspiration for her fictional fighting style. Take a look at the animation for her strikes in FE:
Notice how her sword is sheathed before she strikes? This is called Battoujutsu. Those who have read Ruroni Kenshi know what I'm talking about, but it's actually fairly common in media in Japan. For example, Guilty Gear's Baiken uses a similar style:
But just to add a few more visual representations of what I see in this style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFIVxm6eKBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_C_xEqSwOQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blDwVvAhyEw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwlpnxUZsdA
Likewise, you can see more of it in Big Bang Beat's Senna:
So in short.
What IS this fighting style? And what makes it unique, well first off, the obvious stuff. It is a Japanese sword style, that uses a Katana, Katana users are null in Smash, there isn't a single one, so technically, though a "sword user" a Katana and a Western sword are actually as different from each other as an RPG and a rifle, or to make a simpler analogy an Axe and a Spear. So that easily overcomes the pesky "b-but, ANOTHER sword user" argument. Though still a sword, it's a very different tool from what we've seen in Smash so far.
Now, to define the style. Well, as you saw in what I posted, it's a lightning fast fighting style in which the sword remains sheathed when not used and is pulled out very quickly to strike (one, two, three or more times) and then resheathed. It is focused on explioting the openings and weaknesses you see on an attacking opponent and punishing them severely with quick an ruthless combos. It's a lethal killing technique that requieres very quick reflexes. It is also a very defensive fighting style that requieres as much mental capacity as it does physical. A calm and clear head that can read opponents quite well. A swift killing art that is focused on ending combat as soon as possible with lethal and controlled strikes.
So how do we translate that into Smash? Well, simple, Lyn would be a very fast character, much faster than all of the other sword users, with very fast attacks that have low knockback, decent hitstun but also low lag so she can quickly punish with combos. To compensate, she's very frail in terms of defence. However, using a defensive sword style, obviously she'd be a character who can make healthy use of the counter, much better than Marth or MK ever could, an it would actually be a central part of her fighting style, much like Baiken in GG (and Hakumen in BB).
Anyway, I cover all the details here:
[collapse= repostan because YES]
The Moves:
STATS:
Weight: 82
Fall Speed: 2.4 http://www.ssbwiki.com/Falling_speed
Air Speed: 1.222 http://www.ssbwiki.com/Air_speed
Dash Speed: Rank 2 (Melee Fox, and Brawl C.Falcon) http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dashing
Rolling Frames- Forward: 6-19/23 Backward: 7-21/27 http://www.ssbwiki.com/Rolling
Jump Height: Rank 6, Melee Sheik, Force: 2.80 http://www.ssbwiki.com/Jumping
Traction: 0.08 http://www.ssbwiki.com/Traction
Learning Curve: Medium
ADVANTAGES:
-Great running speed and attack speed, as well as good air speed and solid traction giving her awesome mobility.
-Fall speed allows her to stay airborn long enough to maintain her aerial combos, but fall fast enough to keep her grounded to follow up.
-Fast sword strikes allow her to do combos flawlessly.
-Gatling cancels further facilitate this.
-Good knockback from some of her Smash attacks making her a lethal killer. Allowing her to score kills at around 100%.
-Best counter in the game is a very useful tool for approach and evasion.
-Great approach options, and strings.
-Her UpB is a very useful maneuver for follow ups and evasive maneuvers.
-Vanishing rolls, and Smash Charges can make her unpredicatable
DISADVANTAGES:
-Fast Fall speed combined with a poor 3rd Jump means she has a time recovering.
-No ranged attacks.
-Easily killed and her combo potential is diminsed at higher damage.
-Throws are useless offensively as they don't set up opponents. They're only useful defensively.
-Shorter attack range and relatively low stun damage puts her in harms way.
Specials
[COLLAPSE="Standard B: Counter"]
As I said, the best counter in the game, it comes out much faster than Marth's however, the timing is a bit more tricky, you have to be skilled in order to use this. Like all counters, she's invincible when DOING the counter. Also, in addition to using this technique, you have the opportunity to follow up with one of 4 commands, each one doing something different.
-Not doing a command will cause her to parry her opponent's attack and leave them open to a counter attack, she sets them up at her sweetspot, but does practically no damage doing this (1%-2%).
-Pressing A right after she counters her opponent's attack will cause her to counter attack with a rapid slash, it does decent damage (13%) and knockback allowing you to pursue your opponents.
-If you instead choose to press B, Lyn will vanish and appear behind her opponent and slash them with a powerful slash, this is a very quick move, however, the slight delay does allow your opponent some time to block if they see it coming, this is where the mind games come in as this is MUCH more powerful attack than the A variation, doing 16% damage and very good knockback, still not quite a killing move, but at high damages it just might earn you a KO.
-Your final option is pressing Jump and any direction (or no direction), with which Lyn will vanish and reappear a short distance away in the direction you pressed. She doesn't cover mush ground with this, but enough for evasive maneuvers. This is essentially her defense against Powerful Ranged Attacks and Explosives, but it can also be used for mind games.
Now, in addition to all this, whiffing Lyn's counter has less delay than Marth's, Peach's, Ike's or even Meta Knight's. This is done due to how tricky the timing can be on it (about as tricky as Hakumen's drive), but she's still open to a counter-attack from quick attacks. Also, her counter works on everything from attacks to projectiles to command grabs (like Bowser's Side B), not Normal Grabs (Z/Shield+A) though.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Side B: Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki (someone more creative can rename this)"]
She pushes the ground with her front foot and vanishes appearing a certain distance from her starting location. It has much less range than Fox's Illusion, but it is an effective killing move. She only attacks if she catches an opponent with it, so outside of that, it's an OK recovery move as it can also be used in mid-air. It has landing lag on both occasion, but double if she attacks, and the knockback only happens when she sheathes her sword having a delayed effect, so she DOES leave herself exposed to attack for a bit, but you have to be quick. It does 13% damage if it hits, and opponents are sent flying downward.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="UpB: Leap of Faith"]
She kicks off the ground doing a high leap, landing back on the ground safely. It is a very quick jump, and if used on the ground it can be used as an evasive failsafe as most of her moves can cancel into it. This attack does no damage, but it is very functional, Lyn never goes into recovery mode allowing Lyn to use this move as a sort of High Jump or Jump cancel to follow up with combos. Likewise, it can be cancelled out of my most of her techniques as well. The height of the move is about the same height as her regular jumps, however it is MUCH quicker than her normal jumps, making it a great move for combos.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="DownB: Suio-ryu Iai Kenpou"]
She draws her sword and does a rapid slash. This move is delay-able allowing her to concentrate, thus increasing the damage, knockback and range a bit. The high angle of the move makes it a good Anti-Air move, and the fact that you can delay it makes for good mindgames. You can only delay it for a maximum of 2 seconds. 9% damage uncharged, 14% fully charged. It launches opponents upward a set distance regardless of charge and damage. Obviously it's also usable in the air as well. [/COLLAPSE]
Normal Attacks
Her normal attacks are divided into slashes and kicks, learning to flow between them is the best way to effectively use her offensive prowess.
A = Lyn hits with the hilt of her sword. After landing this hit you can press A again and she will perform a Knee Strike to the Solar Plexus. Finaly, press A 3rd time and she stabs her opponent's foot with her sword. It is a quick move and hits low, it also causes opponents to bounce upon getting hit. Setting them up for combos.
Damage: 1st hit: 2%, 2nd hit: 4%, 3rd hit: 5%
><+A = Lyn does a rounhouse kick with her back leg towards her opponent's head and continues the spin leaving her back exposed. You can then press Aagain to do a reverse horizontal slash with her sword similar to Kenshin's Ryu Kan Sen (not exactly like it, it would be similar to TKD's reverse side kick (or back kick) for those who know MA, but with a sword, however that's the best example I can think of). Both of these moves are great Anti-Air techs, however the 2nd strike is slower to come out and tricky to time properly. 2nd hit is also a launcher.
Damage: 1st hit: 8% 2nd hit: 12%
^+A = This is similar to Kenshin's Ryu Shou Sen: A rising attack where she places her hand on the bottom of the blade and holds it horizontally above her head, then rises straight up, aimed at the opponent's neck. Opponents are sent downward when hit by this, setting them up for Lyn's Dair.
Damage: 11%
v+A = Lyn sticks her leg out and does a low hitting roundhouse kick at her opponents feet. It is a good footsie poke with some slide. It is a decent approach move. Pressing ><+A again at the end of the move will cause Lyn to slide toward her opponent doing a quick slash aimed at their torso. When hit by this opponents will be launched.
Damage: 1st hit: 5%, 2nd hit: 9%
Dash+A = Lyn vanishes, does a slight jump, and does 3 quick stabs aimed at her opponent's neck. You can see this move in the .gif. Not one of her best approach moves, though it can cause for some good mind games.
Damage: 3% per slash.
Smash
Note that while charging a Smash Attack Lyn takes the same exact Battoujutsu style stance for all 3 of her Smash Attacks, this makes her unpredictable and is a core feature of her character, given that Battoujutsu is built on the premise of speed and unpredictability.
[COLLAPSE="Kenshin"][/COLLAPSE]
><+Smash = She does a forward horizontal slash similar to Kenshin's Sou Ryu Ken. In a typical Samurai fashion, the damage has a slight (wind-like) delay effect. At the end of this attack, if timed properly (now this is tricky), you can press A again to do two more successive rapid "heavy" slashes. Pretty much video related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFIVxm6eKBA. The follow up can only be done on the charged version. The first hit has a vaccum-like effect that pulls her opponents to her, the 2nd slash is a great killing move.
Damage: 1st hit: 9-13% 2nd hit: 2%, 3rd hit: 15%
^+Smash = She does an upward slash in an arching motion. The amount of charge determines the angle of the slash. No Charge is a 50 degree angle, half and full charge is 90 degree. At 90 degrees it is one of Lyn's best KO moves. Here's a filler sprite for it:http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/images/e/e4/BBCS_Jin_Rehhyou.png
Damage: 15-24%
v+Smash = If uncharged, she simply spins in place while crouched and does a full crescent horizontal slash that covers both sides. Fully charged it's more similar to Zoro's Tatsumaki from One Piece, minus the ridiculous lasting tornado. This is the best visual representation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHHl0sC78jI. Essentially, her crowd breaker, mostly useful for multiple enemies, though it can be great during certain situations. Though her other Smash Attacks set up better.
Damage: 12-21%
Aerial Moves
Lyn's aerial game is phenomenal. She has to be very close to her opponents in the air to land her moves, however, this is where she racks up damage the most quickly. Effective use of her UpB to follow up into quick combos is what makes Lyn a lethal opponent.
Nair = Lyn does a very quick horizontal slash. This attack has almost no knockback, but instead pulls opponents toward her. Tap A again, and Lyn will cancel into a different slash. You can tap A up to six times with this move doing 6 very quick slashes. It serves a very good combo filler than can rack up damage quickly.
Damage: 2-4% per slash.
Uair = She does a horizontal spin (she turns her body horizontally while doing a 540* rotation), and does an (upward) slash by extending her arm. This is a good K.O. move but the timing has to be perfect.
Damage: 13%
Fair = Lyn does a front flip while swinging her sword vertically above her head. She spins 3x each spin causing damage and travels forward and down for a short distance, there is little knockback from this move and it serves as mostly combo filler.
Damage: 5% x3.
Bair = A Mule Kick similar to Sheik's, but with slightly more punch if she hits from up close. One of her best aerial approach options.
Damage: 6% (10% up close)
Dair = Essentially Kenshin's Ryu Tsui Sen, she faces the ground and dives towards it while pointing her blade downward, with a slight angle. You can see it in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK5-jY0jGhk at 2:45, except Kenshin does more of a slash. My idea is more like, the dive itself if the slash. The stance is the similar though. You can also see Lyn do this same exact stance in her critical hit .gif. What's unique about this move is that the animation allows for it to be used in conjuntion with her U+A, you can do her U+A right after this move. The slash of this sends her opponents upward allowing you to combo withU+A. This attack is great for set ups, however, at higher damages it hits too hard to be a proper set up move.
Damage: 10%
Throws
Lyn's throws are meant to be more defensive than set ups. Thus most of them focus on getting her opponents off of her.
Pummel = Knees opponent in the Solar plexus.
Damage: 2% per hit.
Down = She slams her opponent on the ground, mounts them in missionary possition, and stabs downward with her sword at her opponent's neck.
Damage: 10%
Up = She steps on her opponent's foot and does an upward slash as if she were slicing her opponents in two; opponents are flung upward.
Damage: 6%
Forward = She stabs her opponent in the torso and then kicks them away.
Damage: 7%
Back = She spins the opponent around, steps behind them and gets them in a choke hold placing her sword at their throat, and the slices. As they fall, she kicks them away from her with a side kick.
Damage: 7%
Taunts
1. She turns around and whispers something, while Sakura flower petals blow in the wind.
2. Draws her sword, inspects it closely, and slashed toward her side as if to "clean the blood" a small gust appears at the ground, she twirls the sword and re-sheaths it.
3. Draws her sword places it horizontally above her brow as if glaring at her opponent, says some thing about honor in Japanese and re-sheaths it
FINAL SMASH
Her critical hit in her .gif. After grabbing the Smash Orb, you must strike your opponent (like Ike's), and the opponent is then "paralyzed", she then does and upward slash with a back flip, and vanishes into thin air, only to reappear at all sides above her opponent in 5 copies and bring a maelstrom of pain down on them. The opponent is then thrown flying of the stage for a K.O.
COMBAT FOCUS:
Being a Battoujutsu/Iaijutsu user, she always has her sword sheathed when running, jumping, crouching, etc... The only times she draws it are when she attacks. That is the premise behind this fighting style.
Lyn's combat prowess is focused on Speed and Combos as previously said. Her character has an emphasis on mobility and approach, she has very quick and very good offense, with very stylized, swift sword slashes. She can string opponents into relativeley long combos in the right hands. A lot of her moves have gattling cancels, meaning she's able to flow from one move to another rather well as faster moves will cancel into slower moves allowing for quick combos.
This is where I pause to explain the difference between Lyn's sword attacks and kicking techs. Whenever Lyn does a sword based tech, she has some frame delay while she resheathes her sword. The recovery lag doesn't last long, but long enough to prevent combos. Effective use of her techs is what makes her a good fighter. To prevent this, you must cancel into other sword techs before she resheathes. You cannot cancel from sword techs to kicks or throws. This means that Lyn has to rely on gatling cancels to keep the flow going. Now while this may seem complicated at first, it's actually rather intutive, as it makes logical sense.
Also, as her focus is on quick speed and fast combos, her jumps are a bit shallow compared to Marth (I would say similar to C.Falcon, but with Fox's falling speed, Marth is too floaty for her playstyle), however her attack speed and running speed are much greater. She does more damage at closer ranges, given that her focus is all about running up and getting real close to do combos. The idea is to allow her the opportunity to do Guilty Gear style combos (think Chipp). I feel her running speed would be very similar to Fox's. Making her one of the faster characters in the game.
As I said before, she vanishes during her rolls, similar to how Slayer in GG vanishes during his dashes, this adds to her unpredictability. She has some of the fastest attack speed in the game, and the fastest running speed out of all the sword users.
Her weaknesses lie in her light stun damage in a lot of her moves, likewise her lack of long range moves, meaning she must rely on her counter to deal with those situations. Also, previously mentioned. Lyn is rather frail for a middle weight, it is the setback of her swift speed. When she's taken high damage she has a hard time setting up and following combos, meaning Lyn must be quick to earn her kill, thus making her a momentum character like Marth, but with much more risk-reward oriented.
COMMON COMBOS:
Dtilt>NeutA>2nd Hit>3rd Hit>Ftilt>2nd Hit>UpB>Nair x6>Fair>Dair>Utilt>Dair>USmash
Neut A>2nd hit>3rd hit>FSmash>Dash Cancle>DashA>Dtilt>2nd hit>DashCancel>USmash>Uair
From (A) Counter: SH>Nair x6>Fair>Side B
From (A) Counter: SH>Nair x6>Fair>FF>DownB>UpB>UAir
SH>Bair>SH>Bair>DSmash>Jump Cancel>Nair x6>Dair>Utilt>Dair>USmash
Tell me your thoughts.[/collapse]
[/collapse]
So, looking at things from a competitive standpoint. Lyn's potential as a fighter is clear and obvious (once again, tourney hotshot Mew2King agrees and supports her for Smash 4). She would be one of the fiercest characters on the roster, bringing a unique blend of moves and fighting styles that haven't been trialed on Smash ever before. A style that would not only be pleasant to look at, but also open new doors in terms of what can be seen done by characters on the game. Same way you see Falcon, Marth, Sheik, and other top tier characters do some crazy things in Melee, but with a unique Japanese flair that only makes it look THAT much cooler.
So, while you see SWORDS, I see a unique style that has yet to be tapped and brings a lot to the table. I honestly don't see other characters bringing in as much as Lyn barring Isaac and Ridley.
To use your same argument against you: but we already have FOUR Magic users in Smash, we don't need more (Zelda, Ness, Lucas, and Mewtwo).
Lyn's real strengths lie not in being a girl, you can slap a penis on her and make her a man, and I'd still push for her (err him). Why? Because the fighting style is unique, an hasn't been seen in Smash before, AND it's one that brings a lot of potential in terms of competitive play. A fast and fierce character that can follow up with some mean combos. In other words, PM suddenly becomes Guilty Gear (ok, maybe not, but w/e).
Only in his sprites, does his axe look like a hand-axe. In a lot of his official artwork, his axe is HUGE. It could work like a mix of Dedede and Ike in terms of how he swings it. He can also do a lot of Ike/Ganon-esque punches and kicks.
The best I can think of is to go to your recent posts (