NEW AND IMPROVED MARIO MATCHUP THREAD

[Mr.Random]

Sorry I've been absent guys. College stuff

 

[deadjames]

Wait how is Bowser 55:45? I'd say it's at least 70:30 in Mario's favor. There's not really a whole lot Bowser can do to a Mario that knows the MU.

 

[Mr.Random]

Wait how is Bowser 55:45? I'd say it's at least 70:30 in Mario's favor. There's not really a whole lot Bowser can do to a Mario that knows the MU.

Can you give a better explanation? Just want to edit the OP if you have better insight on the MU.

 

[deadjames]

Bowser has no approach, and Mario never has to approach him. If Bowser does manage to get in Mario can just run away, and keep throwing fireballs or 0-death him off a grab. Edge-guarding Bowser is also pretty brain-dead, all it takes is a well-placed cape.

 

[Mr.Random]

Bowser has no approach, and Mario never has to approach him. If Bowser does manage to get in Mario can just run away, and keep throwing fireballs or 0-death him off a grab. Edge-guarding Bowser is also pretty brain-dead, all it takes is a well-placed cape.

Thank you for your input

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Nah
It ain't that bad for bowser. Should be 60:40 Mario's favor. Bowser has his ledge atk, fire breath to stop sweet spots, SA, decent/safe OoS, that down b cancel er w/e. A good bowser isn't gonna be getting caped for days. 70:30 would be saying its like Marth v Mario. Bowser can win, it's just hard.

If you wanna make the case you're trying to prove seem legit, do a write up.

 

[deadjames]

Nah
It ain't that bad for bowser. Should be 60:40 Mario's favor. bowser has his ledge atk, fire breath to stop sweet spots, SA, that down b cancel er w/e. A good bowser isn't gonna be getting caped for days. 70:30 would be saying its like Marth v Mario.

If you wanna make the case you're trying to prove seem legit, do a write up.

Unfortunately, I'm not very articulate, so I don't really care to do a write up, but I'm both the best Mario and the best Bowser in my region. In regards to what you said Bowser's ledge attack is extremely overrated, it's probably his worst option on the ledge against non-spacies, flame is kind of irrelevant because fortress-hogging is the superior ledge-guarding option against Mario, Idk what SA stands for I'm guessing super armor, in which case Bowser doesn't have super armor he has heavy armor which Mario can break with almost any of his strong attacks, or just grab through, and down-b cancel isn't really that scary as long as you're aware of it.

 

[BLUX]

metaknight/dedede/roy main here and i can say without a doubt that metaknight vs mario is very difficult for metaknight. Mario can do everything against metaknight safely while metaknights main goal is to slowly and carefully raise your percent into an upB because a trade or mistake means a good 80% after for metaknight. if your going against a mario that doesn't fireball all the time then the matchup is much more doable, other then that i wouldn't recommend it. d3 vs. mario is like a samus vs marth matchup, they can both do stuff to eachother but its easier for marth, Mario is marth in this situation. If d3 messes up he gets punished way more then he can punish mario if he messes up (unless that messup is off stage). with d3 you need a small stage with a platform(s) that is high and in the middle and if he starts going close to the end then you need to pounce and get him off stage or else he's living to 200%. roy vs. mario is in roys favor simply because he can do what marth can do, just not as fast and a bit more difficult, also roys upB will hit mario before his cape turns you around.
so all in all i'd say this
MK vs. mario = 30/70 heres a video highlighting his strengths against him, the fight is towards the end (captain vs. captain)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unTRshvO0B4)
D3 vs. mario = 45/55
roy vs. mario = 55/45 (too be clear i believe marth vs. mario is 60/40)

 

[deadjames]

Roy does not beat Mario, he simply doesn't have the means to keep Mario out of his space, gets combo'd really hard by Mario, and unlike Marth doesn't combo him very comfortably, not to mention Mario can get a free 50% off of the dthrow CG maybe more. Then there's Roy's horrendous recovery, sure up-b beats cape, but Mario can just go out and bair Roy before he gets close enough to recover with up-b. Also I agree that MK struggles against Mario, but I'd say it's closer to 60:40, MK definitely struggles against fireballs in neutral, but he also significantly outranges Mario and gimps him very easily.

 

[GeZ]

I agree with deadjames on Bowser/ Mario MU, though to separate it from the Mario/ Marth MU, I'd say you could classify Mario/ Marth as a 20:80, and Mario/ Bowser as a 70:30.

In regards to the matchup Mario just has the fluidity and speed to make Bowser have trouble, be it with his low commitment solid normals, vs Bowser's high commitment solid normals makes the MU a slog for Bowser.

Plus the chaingrab is easy as butts on Bowser.

Plus plus the combos really really work wonders on Bowser.

 

[Mr.Random]

I agree with deadjames on Bowser/ Mario MU, though to separate it from the Mario/ Marth MU, I'd say you could classify Mario/ Marth as a 20:80, and Mario/ Bowser as a 70:30.

In regards to the matchup Mario just has the fluidity and speed to make Bowser have trouble, be it with his low commitment solid normals, vs Bowser's high commitment solid normals makes the MU a slog for Bowser.

Plus the chaingrab is easy as butts on Bowser.

Plus plus the combos really really work wonders on Bowser.

I've been playing the Marth MU more (playing one of the best Marth's in FL) and I have to day although it's hard. It's definitely 60:40 Marth rather than 20 or 30 for Mario. Mario gets a lot of good punishes as well and I've gimped Marth's at really low %s. Plus fireball spam is effective on medium and big stages. You have 3 bans when you win so ban YS, WW, and FoD and you'll be good. When I'm striking I feel PS2 or Dreamland are solid places to force strikes. Always ban BF, YS, and FD when you can on the first match.

 

[GeZ]

Fireball spam shouldn't work on Marth. It doesn't if the Marth knows the MU. It's definitely not 60:40.

 

[Mr.Random]

Fireball spam shouldn't work on Marth. It doesn't if the Marth knows the MU. It's definitely not 60:40.

You throw out fireballs faster then Marth can aerial.
Also am I the only one who thinks the Mario creams Puff in this game?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Puff is trash in this game

 

[GeZ]

Nobody really reps puff and a lot of the newcomers/ veterans have new ways to easily deal with her.

You throw out fireballs faster then Marth can aerial.
Also am I the only one who thinks the Mario creams Puff in this game?

With good spacing/ SHFFLing/ spot dodging/ etc Marth can circumvent fireballs. Even with an alright grasp of all of that he can **** you for spamming it.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Any top 10 character can nair/fair and can get you, and the fireball.

 

[Mr.Random]

Puff can't edgeguard us as easily anymore, can't combo into rest, you can DI all her air combos away and she can't do anything about it. We can kill her early, fireballs annoy her air mobility, and you can camp her out. Dsmash kills at 100, Fsmash kills at 80, Usmash kills at 90, and Fair sweetspot kills at 70.

 

[deadjames]

You throw out fireballs faster then Marth can aerial.
Also am I the only one who thinks the Mario creams Puff in this game?

Doc beat Puff in Melee, this is nothing new.

 

[Mr.Random]

Doc beat Puff in Melee, this is nothing new.

Thought it was even on smashboards?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I can see how that would happen. Trying to think now, if I can do something for a MU..

 

[Mr.Random]

Need to learn everything about all three spacies matchups for CEO.

 

[GeZ]

They're easily comboable/ gimpable/ murderable, so all the difficulty and importance of those matchups are the neutral. If you want to beat space animals you have to do it in the neutral game.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

@ Mr.Random

Vs falco
Ban FD no matter what!
You can also ban the other stages with a similar layout.
Yoshi's story is also worth a ban.
Yoshi island is good against him with that long single platform. Lylat is good against people who don't practice there.

Ban the usual against fox

Wolfs nair is 0 on sheild. Nothing else he has, aside from shine, is that good on sheild. If he likes to pillar, you can challenge the dairs. They are above -4 on sheild. His bair is like -3 or -4 on sheild. You can CC his shine, it doesn't even launch or send you anywhere when you do that. I don't know how high you can go with that tho. Respect his fsmash. That's just a few things I can tell you off of the top of my head. HMU with a PM or message on Skype if you want info or something explained in depth.

 

[deadjames]

Thought it was even on smashboards?

Imo Doc beats Puff.

Edit: I like to take spacies to Skyworld, recovering there is hell for them, although be aware that Fox can kill you really early off the top there. Also, I don't think FD is that bad against Falco provided you are proficient at the CG because Mario has an easier time dealing with lasers than many characters do.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I don't think FD is that bad against Falco provided you are proficient at the CG because Mario has an easier time dealing with lasers than many characters do.

Did you, think when ya said that one? Going to FD for the sake of the CG is not worth it, and ill advised. You tried grabbing a good spacey before? Going to FD against Falco, is like asking a black person to go to the back of the bus, while you're in ghetto and your the only white person within 10 miles. Mario has just as hard of a time against lasers as any other character on the roster.

 

[Mr.Random]

One thing I noticed in more recent matches is that you can shield grab spacies easier in this game. I don't know why. Like there are instances where I swear shine beats out grab because of invincibility.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If the spacey is slow on execution, it's possible to grab armor them. Realistically, well timed shield pressure is not punishable.

 

[deadjames]

Did you, think when ya said that one? Going to FD for the sake of the CG is not worth it, and ill advised. You tried grabbing a good spacey before? Going to FD against Falco, is like asking a black person to go to the back of the bus, while you're in ghetto and your the only white person within 10 miles. Mario has just as hard of a time against lasers as any other character on the roster.

Dealing with lasers as Mario is easy as jumping over the first one and throwing a fireball at Falco, doing that consistently will deter him from using lasers. Seems to me like you're the one that's not thinking if you haven't figured this out yet.

 

[Japsy]

That Marth section was a really helpful read, thanks a lot
I have loads of trouble recovering against a Marth though. It's like every one of his attacks covers the entire area of where I can land. What I've been doing against my Marth maining friend is bait him into attacking then airdodging onto stage.
Usually I wall jump, maybe cape afterwards depending on how deep I was, to get parallel to him (if he's standing near the edge, which he usually is), then when he pulls out an attack I airdodge towards him/the stage. You can always grab ledge to refresh your jumps too.
Does the momentum from b-down refresh when you grab ledge? if you try doing it twice in the air only the first one helps you recovery, the second one drops you down like deadweight
Yeah nevermind, it refreshes, good to know.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Dealing with lasers as Mario is easy as jumping over the first one and throwing a fireball at Falco, doing that consistently will deter him from using lasers. Seems to me like you're the one that's not thinking if you haven't figured this out yet.

That's what falco wants you to do. You and a lot of others like to think mario is much better than he actually is, due to a lack of solid experience. Playing those local no names just isn't enough in same cases. But that's besides the point.

Jumping over a laser so you can pick an option that is out prioritized by whatever he does, is what he wants.
Falco>mario on FD
Lasers controll the game and when you get close, lasergrab, nair, dair and shine> all of Mario's options.
Possiably even on a lot of other stages, especially the ones that allow you to maneuver around lasers. ie, platform(s).
Mario does not win on FD.
Nether he or doc won it in melee and this game is no different.

 

[Mr.Random]

Anyone know the ZSS matchup?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Anyone know the ZSS matchup?

Some stuff I know, chain grabs till 40-50, unclankable nB, SDi her jab combo(3hit one) it can lead to a dsmash, learn fsmash range, nair can clank and is a combo move, SDi her fair, she can dash cancel her nB etc etc. She is also a good combo weight.

 

[Mr.Random]

Alright guys. Just got done in CEO. I swept through my bracket until one character ****ed me over.......Mewtwo. I swear I tried everything. I tried to punish teleport, no luck. Tried to SDI out of combos, no luck. Tried to edgeguard him, no luck. Tried to recover against him, no luck. How do you beat this ****ing character?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Alright guys. Just got done in CEO. I swept through my bracket until one character ****ed me over.......Mewtwo. I swear I tried everything. I tried to punish teleport, no luck. Tried to SDI out of combos, no luck. Tried to edgeguard him, no luck. Tried to recover against him, no luck. How do you beat this ****ing character?

Nearly all of his crap has some sorta disjoint, redic ones at that, they have marth like range and better, with less lag. The only way I find success in this MU, is play a heavy bait and punish game. Edge guarding him is about predicting and or baiting his up B. You aren't gonna be able to bair or stick that nair out against a capable m2 player. A good amount of m2's love to TP>nair. You can punish that if you play right. He does have infinite options out of up B, so its a dangerous mix up situation. If m2 ever shadow balls, you cape it and he reflects it, keep cape'ing it. I think the cape has less lag.

Depending on what combos he was doing, I could tell you where to DI and what to SDi.

What all were the problems you faced?

Once he gets around idk, 30% you don't really get much off of your hits. Fireballs don't do much, so yea, heavy bait and punish game. You could probably get some dair into kill move setups against him. I haven't played the MU in a while.

You could probably switch, since this MU is kinda hard.

 

[GeZ]

Mewtwo can be annoying but these all sound like general gripes as opposed to MU gripes. Are you sure you weren't just outplayed?

 

[Mr.Random]

Mewtwo can be annoying but these all sound like general gripes as opposed to MU gripes. Are you sure you weren't just outplayed?

Absolutely not. Otherwise I wouldn't be upset. Mario just can't get in and most of Mewtwo's combos do almost 80% while we only get 30%+. Fireballs don't work and he can choose to invade your space at anytime with Up B. Please tell me how to beat this character or should I just switch to another character?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

M2 doesn't have to outplay mario to win. He can actually be outplayed and still win in this MU.

 

[Omega Male]

Anychance OP can add quotes to the appropriate characters? Would be easier for people to come at a glance

 

[Mr.Random]

Anychance OP can add quotes to the appropriate characters? Would be easier for people to come at a glance

I would but I need volunteers to share their experience on certain MUs.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If you wanna win, you, will, read.