Ness vs Shiek. How bad does Shiek have the advantage?

[Smashbros_7]

AND CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME THIS FTILT LOCK!

(Does it only affect Ness?)

 

[Earthbound360]

Sheik has the advantage?

 

[Smashbros_7]

Some crap about forward tilt lock.

 

[ADHD]

As a sheik mainer, ness is easy as hell. Ftilt repeatedly works a very large part of the character roster, it works on ness.

 

[Smashbros_7]

WHAT! Then doesn't Shiek have like alot of good matchups?

Oh yeah, she sucks.

 

[ADHD]

WHAT! Then doesn't Shiek have like alot of good matchups?

Oh yeah, she sucks.

No, people who suck with her, suck.

She can handle snake, meta. And she's gonna be high tier, just wait, you watch ness mainers

It's just the ice climbers There's no more needle canceling on platform stages so they're very difficult especially with those **** grabs.

Oh btw, she has a glitch with her chain where you can input an attack such as her Fsmash into it. Godly....

You people have never fought a good sheik before have you?

 

[stealthsushi]

Nice to see you again Smashbros_7; it would've been easier to ask this in the Sheik boards since everyone there loves F-Tilt locks. Haha :D

F-Tilt lock is basically being trapped in Sheik's F-Tilt starting a certain percent where the knockback is enough to keep you suspended above the ground, but not so much that it knocks you too high. That means you won't be able to shield in between F-Tilts, or be able to jump out. For Ness, I believe it starts around 10%. If the F-Tilt Lock is done correctly, you'll be trapped for a good 50-80% unless you know how to DI it, but either way, you'll be taking a lot of damage.

Also, the F-Tilt lock affects about... half the cast if correctly spaced and executed. Ness isn't the only victim. Notable characters that can be locked include: Snake, Meta Knight, DDD, G & W, Fox, Falco, and Wolf. There are more, but I wanted to mention characters that get used often

Tips to avoid many roundhouse kicks in the face:
1. Smash DI up the FIRST F-Tilt. This will give you a chance to avoid the Lock. Only works at mid percents. Very hard to do since F-Tilt comes out hella fast and has short hitstun (smaller time frame to SDI).

2. DI TOWARDS Sheik in hopes that she messes up. This is your best chance at minimizing the amount of damage. It will take a while for you to DI towards Sheik, so you will still have to eat 4-5 F-Tilts before reaching her (but its better than taking 10 and taking a near guaranteed tipper U-Smash). Once you reach her, try to Footstool Jump or DI behind Sheik since there is a slightly chance to escape when she changes F-Tilt directions.

3. NEVER DI away from Sheik, unless you like being suspended in the air for a very very long period of time

4. Hope the Sheik messes up the F-Tilt Lock. It is guaranteed 3-5 hits as long as the Sheik doesn't mess up the F-Tilt timing (i.e. they don't F-Tilt again during its IASA frames).

** Edit **
Sheik players need smarts and skills to get those kills :D I'm hoping she'll be making High Tier with her F-Tilt Locks, Vanish Tricks, and Chain Jacket. She definitely has the advantage against Ness in terms of speed and flexibility.

Go Sheik!!

 

[Smashbros_7]

Nice to see you again Smashbros_7; it would've been easier to ask this in the Sheik boards since everyone there loves F-Tilt locks. Haha :D

F-Tilt lock is basically being trapped in Sheik's F-Tilt starting a certain percent where the knockback is enough to keep you suspended above the ground, but not so much that it knocks you too high. That means you won't be able to shield in between F-Tilts, or be able to jump out. For Ness, I believe it starts around 10%. If the F-Tilt Lock is done correctly, you'll be trapped for a good 50-80% unless you know how to DI it, but either way, you'll be taking a lot of damage.

Also, the F-Tilt lock affects about... half the cast if correctly spaced and executed. Ness isn't the only victim. Notable characters that can be locked include: Snake, Meta Knight, DDD, G & W, Fox, Falco, and Wolf. There are more, but I wanted to mention characters that get used often

Tips to avoid many roundhouse kicks in the face:
1. Smash DI up the FIRST F-Tilt. This will give you a chance to avoid the Lock. Only works at mid percents. Very hard to do since F-Tilt comes out hella fast and has short hitstun (smaller time frame to SDI).

2. DI TOWARDS Sheik in hopes that she messes up. This is your best chance at minimizing the amount of damage. It will take a while for you to DI towards Sheik, so you will still have to eat 4-5 F-Tilts before reaching her (but its better than taking 10 and taking a near guaranteed tipper U-Smash). Once you reach her, try to Footstool Jump or DI behind Sheik since there is a slightly chance to escape when she changes F-Tilt directions.

3. NEVER DI away from Sheik, unless you like being suspended in the air for a very very long period of time

4. Hope the Sheik messes up the F-Tilt Lock. It is guaranteed 3-5 hits as long as the Sheik doesn't mess up the F-Tilt timing (i.e. they don't F-Tilt again during its IASA frames).

** Edit **
Sheik players need smarts and skills to get those kills :D I'm hoping she'll be making High Tier with her F-Tilt Locks, Vanish Tricks, and Chain Jacket. She definitely has the advantage against Ness in terms of speed and flexibility.

Go Sheik!!

Thanks for the info. Thats all I need.
Your a pretty cool Shiek main dude/chick.

Does that mean Shiek has an advantage on Falco/Wolf/MK and possibly Snake?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yes, right at the moment, Shiek is considered a Snake counter because of the ftilt lock and because the needles royally screw up his recovery. Despite winning the most tournaments, Snake is supposed to have several other counters too including the Ice Climbers, Wolf, and Pikachu. Regarding the Ftilt lock, I predict that a solution will be found to it within a month or so simply because high tier character players usually seem to put more energy into trying to elminate all their character's weaknesses than anyone else.

 

[ADHD]

Thanks for the info. Thats all I need.
Your a pretty cool Shiek main dude/chick.

Does that mean Shiek has an advantage on Falco/Wolf/MK and possibly Snake?

Falco is a little bit advantagous, wolf is definitely ***** vs sheik, MK is possible, but sheik has a very tough time.

Wow, people don't know much at all about sheik do they? Snake gives sheik a hard time with his insane priority, you cant tilt lock him as much as wolf or fox, which is a loss, but you can combo his *** like a mofo.

 

[stealthsushi]

Thanks for the info. Thats all I need.
Your a pretty cool Shiek main dude/chick.

Does that mean Shiek has an advantage on Falco/Wolf/MK and possibly Snake?

First, its Sheik not Shiek :D Glad the info helped ya :D
It doesn't necessarily mean Sheik has a crazy advantage, but evens up the match versus these opponents. Meta Knight is probably the hardest match up of the characters you listed; he has a disjointed hitbox, faster attacks than Sheik, and is horrendously hard to kill with Sheik given his good recoveries. Against Falco and Snake, the F-Tilt lock combined with good gimping abilities allows her to fight evenly (or slight advantage) versus them. F-Tilt lock is a nice way to combat Falco's chain grab while the F-Tilt lock + needles helps balance out the big difference in KO ability. Not a complete advantage, but the lock definitely helps even the matchup. If you include Sheik/Zelda combo, then the matches are probably either even (or close to it) or in Sheik/Zelda's favor. Oh, and I forgot Wolf-- easy for Sheik :D

Yes, right at the moment, Shiek is considered a Snake counter because of the ftilt lock and because the needles royally screw up his recovery. Despite winning the most tournaments, Snake is supposed to have several other counters too including the Ice Climbers, Wolf, and Pikachu. Regarding the Ftilt lock, I predict that a solution will be found to it within a month or so simply because high tier character players usually seem to put more energy into trying to elminate all their character's weaknesses than anyone else.

There already is a solution to the F-Tilt lock as I mentioned above, but its difficult to get out of when performed correctly. You can escape with less damage and avoid the KO with smart DI, but to avoid it all together is to not let Sheik hit you with the first F-Tilt (hard to do since F-Tilt is Sheik's bread and butter along with the B-Air approaches).

Sheik / Snake matchups are one of my favorite to play since its roughly 50:50 with both characters having distinct advantages against each other: Sheik has speed, gimping, and high comboability vs. heavy characters-- Snake can KO Sheik at 90% .

Of the characters likely in the top tier (Snake, MK, DDD), I personally think Sheik has the advantage versus Snake and DDD (when combined with Zelda), but MK poses the biggest threat. Other characters like G&W and Olimar are very troublesome, but with developments in Sheik's metagame, I'm sure the matchup gap can be reduced.

-------

Heh, sorry for the tangent onto Sheik's game in the Ness boards. I wish you guys the best of luck in your matchups, especially with all those infinite release grabs you have to deal with

 

[Brinzy]

Wow, people don't know much at all about sheik do they?

Well duh, if you don't play a character and you don't face it very often, how are you supposed to know oh-so-much about it?

Ftilt-lock is the main thing that Sheik does to me, but past that, the match isn't terrible. Ness actually has pretty good priority vs. Sheik, but Sheik still has a bit more range and a lot more speed in the air. I think that, in most cases, Sheik will get a hit in on Ness due to its speed and range, but whenever my aerials actually clash with Sheik, I always get a hit in, whereas I only take a hit every now and then in return. I don't know Sheik's exact priorities in the air, but I do know that it's better at hitting first.

Sheik is better on the ground, end of. Faster, more range, a stupid lock, and its damage output on the ground might be better than Ness's.

Needles are a huge pain. Lucas has one main advantage over Ness: being able to PK Fire through Sheik's needles. Ness does not have this advantage, and if there is any distance between the two of them, Sheik will annoying the living hell out of Ness, forcing him to get close... where Sheik generally does better.

Of course, Ness has his own advantages. For one, the yo-yo is amazing. Sheik has a pretty nasty dash attack, and it otherwise likes to approach to keep its opponent under constant pressure. As long as the Ness isn't predictable, he can get very easy yo-yo smashes on Sheik. SH-fair is the way to go against Sheik, as it is against nearly everyone. Ness's dash attack is excellent, as it'll outprioritize anything of Sheik's jointed attacks... so long as you use it before Sheik can hit you. Overall, Ness also kills a bit sooner before Sheik, though allow me to say that while Sheik's knockback isn't amazing, it isn't non-existent, and Sheik CAN KO before 100%, notably with a good timed Usmash.

As for recovery, Ness has to be careful of the typical gimps, but he also needs to be wary of needles, which will screw up his recovery, and if they don't cause him to die, Ness will probably have a fair bit more damage on him when he returns... or rather, IF he returns. Sheik has a tether and an Up B to use in order to get the ledge, both to edgehog and to recovery itself. Punishing Sheik is also harder this time around because, upon reappearing, Sheik has a wind effect that pushes Ness away, making punishment a little harder. Ness still has his old PK moves and his own mindgames working, but they aren't exceptional (and sometimes not very effective) against Sheik.

I would go 40-60 in this match, in Sheik's favor at best, but really, I wouldn't be surprised if this were 30-70. I know I said recently that I thought the match was even, but I think this is just because of the Sheik I play against. Finally, yes, I will refer to Sheik as an "it."

 

[Yuna]

1. Smash DI up the FIRST F-Tilt. This will give you a chance to avoid the Lock. Only works at mid percents. Very hard to do since F-Tilt comes out hella fast and has short hitstun (smaller time frame to SDI).

Just as a note, you don't DI during hitstun, you DI during freeze frames. While they interlap for the most part, they are not the same thing. For one thing, hitstun lasts longer than freeze frames.

 

[Levitas]

Don't get caught in the ftilt lock, you shouldn't anyways.

 

[Uffe]

Ness shouldn't even get caught in the f-tilt lock. I've had someone do that to me and I escaped almost effortlessly. Usually when I'm fighting Sheik players and I get them really annoyed by Ness' PSI the eventually turn into Zelda. I've had a Zelda mainer transform into Sheik hoping to win the match and I annoyed him with Ness' PSI and he just transformed back after like a few seconds because he thought that's all I was going to use.

 

[stealthsushi]

Just as a note, you don't DI during hitstun, you DI during freeze frames. While they interlap for the most part, they are not the same thing. For one thing, hitstun lasts longer than freeze frames.

Thanks for the clarification. Does that mean that the freeze frame for Sheik's F-Tilt is nearly non-existent? That would make it ridiculously hard to SDI out of the first hit.

 

[ADHD]

Ness ground game--bad range, crappy, slow.

Sheik's ground game--quick, strong, her strongpoint.

The only thing ness is a bit better in is aerial priority, and not by too much.

Needles stop his defensive play and force him to approach with his crappy ground game.

 

[Yuna]

Ness shouldn't even get caught in the f-tilt lock. I've had someone do that to me and I escaped almost effortlessly. Usually when I'm fighting Sheik players and I get them really annoyed by Ness' PSI the eventually turn into Zelda. I've had a Zelda mainer transform into Sheik hoping to win the match and I annoyed him with Ness' PSI and he just transformed back after like a few seconds because he thought that's all I was going to use.

Ness' PSI? Which one (since most of his attacks are psionic)? If you mean PSI Magnet, AFAIK, it doesn't work on any of Sheik's moves.

Thanks for the clarification. Does that mean that the freeze frame for Sheik's F-Tilt is nearly non-existent? That would make it ridiculously hard to SDI out of the first hit.

Yes. It's nearly non-existent.

 

[Earthbound360]

Oh is that it? I've experienced that, and it doesn't give Sheik the upper hand. Honestly, it's not that bad. Besides, Sheik wont be KOing at 80% anyways.

 

[Brinzy]

Have you ever been hit with the first hit of Usmash and nothing else? The knockback on that thing surprised me.

 

[Yuna]

Oh is that it? I've experienced that, and it doesn't give Sheik the upper hand. Honestly, it's not that bad. Besides, Sheik wont be KOing at 80% anyways.

Sweetspotted Upsmash should KO Ness at 80-ish%, IIRC.

 

[Earthbound360]

And how often does Ness let Sheik sweetspot that?
I'll answer that for you; not often. 1 KO move. Ness players can read that.

 

[Uffe]

Ness' PSI? Which one (since most of his attacks are psionic)? If you mean PSI Magnet, AFAIK, it doesn't work on any of Sheik's moves.

PSI meaning his PK Thunder, Fire or Flash. I just like using PSI better. Anyway, anyone's attack can cancel out PKT and PKT can cancel out most attacks. But how many people know where it's going? Sheik could try and cancel out Ness' PKT, but it doesn't mean the Ness player is aiming directly into her attack just for her to cancel it. Sheik could simply use her multi jab and Ness could just simply aim at her head or backside. Personally I think Zelda's alter ego is going to have a harder time against Ness. Whenever I come across Sheik I don't worry at all. When it's Zelda I literally have to think of how I'm going to defeat her.

 

[_clinton]

And how often does Ness let Sheik sweetspot that?
I'll answer that for you; not often. 1 KO move. Ness players can read that.

You guys are aware that some Shiek Players just turn into Zelda when the killing is right...right?

 

[NukeNess]

You guys are aware that some Shiek Players just turn into Zelda when the killing is right...right?

DO NOT TURN THIS INTO ANOTHER NESS VS ZELDA FIGHT!!!! lol

 

[Blackbelt]

DO NOT TURN THIS INTO ANOTHER NESS VS ZELDA FIGHT!!!! lol

He's not, he's pointing out that Sheik can rack up alot of damage against Ness relatively easily, than switch to Zelda, who has alot of KO moves that will have no diminishing return on them, since she just transformed.

 

[NukeNess]

Someone needs to come up with a way to show sarcasm through text. They would be a millionaire if they did. I know what he was going for I was just messing around.

 

[Blackbelt]

Someone needs to come up with a way to show sarcasm through text. They would be a millionaire if they did. I know what he was going for I was just messing around.

That's why jk was invented, in order to display sarcasm via text.

 

[VilNess]

Yes, Another Sheik SSBB mainer here.
At around 80% and up, it´s time to hit Ness (or anyone else at that weight category) away and switch to Zelda. Sheik isn´t supposed to be played alone IMO... except sheik is pretty good at gimping.
So if sheik doesn´t get early %´s edgeguard, ther is always Zelda...
getting Ness to 80%´s shouldn´t be a problem. Sheik/Zelda has the advantage.

 

[Earthbound360]

Is this the only reason people think Sheik has the advanatage? Cuz its a horrible reason. I haven't ever had a problem with this, and like I said, Sheik cant KO. If she transforms, she can KO, but Zelda's KO moves arent the easiest things to land. She's got a lot, but landing them is the difficulty.

Honestly, I highly disagree with Sheik having the advantage. In fact, I'd say Ness has the advantage.
*waits for Yuna or some rabid Sheik player to tear me up*

BTW Chrome Pirate, you're arguments make me laugh cuz of how wrong they are. Ness has decent ground game, not crappy. Utilt combo, dtilt is wicked quick, and his grab and throws are among the best in the game. His dash attack is one of the best IMO also, and his usmash is too good if used right. And what kind of Ness approaches with ground game anyways? And more aerial priority but "not by much?" You've gotta be kidding me.

 

[Brinzy]

It's not a horrible reason. That ftilt lock is painful. It's not even the ONLY thing Sheik can do. Sheik outranges Ness on the ground, and we all know it outspeeds Ness. Yo-yos work wonders vs. it, but aside from that, what can Ness really do to stop Sheik? Dash attack is good, but you'd have to get it out before the Sheik player hit you. Dtilt is quick, but it's short-ranged, and Sheik doesn't always trip/flinch from it, so don't be surprised if it just starts kicking you anyway. A lot of what you're saying applies to anyone, and it all assumes that you've gotten past the opponent and you're doing these things already. The problem with that is the fact that Sheik can get in quickly, and it has needles. Ness has some decent ground moves, but Sheik is generally better anyway...

Also, no, Ness doesn't completely outprioritze Sheik. He has his fair and other moves to get in over Sheik, but Sheik clashes a lot with him. Even if you discount that, Sheik moves so fast that it'll probably hit you before you even get your moves out, namely anything that isn't fair. Ness's nair will be beaten out by Sheik's kicks, and with his two fastest viable aerials out the way, you're left with one that can be easily avoided (uair) and two that don't come out fast enough to stop a Sheik who can get inside quickly.

Then there's the fact that Sheik > Ness at gimping, undeniably. The fact that Sheik can tether the edge now and that its Up B has been improved make it harder for Ness to edgeguard the thing with his abilities. The most gimping you'll get with PK moves now will probably be a PK Thunder that stage spikes Sheik, and Ness's dair might be met with a quick uair.

I can tolerate you disagreeing about Sheik having the advantage, but Ness getting the advantage in turn? I don't think so.

 

[Smashbros_7]

****! Who said anything about advantage. So mighty one, what do you think? Neutral eh?

 

[Brinzy]

****! Who said anything about advantage.

Honestly, I highly disagree with Sheik having the advantage. In fact, I'd say Ness has the advantage.

And I said that Ness is probably disadvantaged, but I *want* it to be neutral.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Whatever man. Why don't you do us all a favor and argue for it at the matchup chart eh? Eh? Eh?

 

[Brinzy]

I can't do it alone, and I highly doubt the Sheik players will agree... it just feels a bit too stretched out for me.

 

[NukeNess]

i cant wait till we have 20 of these threads rolling for all of ness' possible neutral match ups! brb while i go light a fire under the DK forums ***.

 

[imdavid]

wow smashbros7, why don't you act your age, unless you really are a 7 year old, and stop complaining about a match up chart that is completely inaccurate and no one gives credit to anyways. the only thing that matters is how YOU fight against other characters.

a match up chart might be useful, but based on different play styles character match ups are different for each PERSON, not character. I have two friends who main ness and i also second ness. my two friends are both very good, but their play styles allow me to do a lot better against one than the other for some odd reason (beats me)

also, ness's air game is superb and out classes sheik. ness's fair chains into more fairs thanks to ness's amazing double jump etc etc. fair also has a disjointed hitbox which helps him in so many ways. one thing that gives ness a disadvantage though is sheiks faster aerial speed, which allows her to cut into ness's air game. a good ness player can simply just use a nair etc etc etc... its all about the player

this is why earthbounder, a very experienced ness player, may find sheiks to be an easy match up, where as younger ness players find sheik to be difficult, match up charts are totally subjective and are not accurate at all

btw... sheik's main advantage is speed and gimping, take those away from her by lets say... mindgames (lawl) and its ness's win.

 

[Smashbros_7]

7?

17?

21?

Choose.

 

[Nestec]

It's important to remember that Sheik's aerials are really fast.

Sheik isn't as hard to grab as Zelda though, I'll say. So Bthrow kills should be much easier, which happen at about 120%-ish? What are Sheik's kill moves and when do they kill Ness?

As for edgeguarding/gimping, neither can gimp the other extremely well. Sheik's Fair isn't a reliable edgeuarder anymore, and Ness cannot count on Dair to kill Sheik off-stage. And Dair is much too slow... So, in short, neither will die unless it's a direct kill from a kill-move.

At least, that's what I'm thinking.

 

[Brinzy]

Do not forget that Sheik has needles to disrupt PK Thunder recovery. Sheik also is a much better edgehogger than Ness. Its up B grants it invincibility frames right before exploding, I think. This allows it to override PKT2.

If Sheik has Ness over the edge at a point where he needs PKT2 to recover, chances are he'll die from fair/nair.