Ness vs. MetaKnight

[Clel]

dang, Ness boards got trolled pretty hard. I don't remember this matchup much since it's been awhile, but I do remember that Ness has tons of stuff he can do to MK, should MK not know the matchup. Once MK knows what to do it feels like it's heavily in MKs favor...

 

[Eagleye893]

Agree with barto's saying stuff about fair.

 

[PSI Nexus]

Why aren't there more MK mains here? O_o

I think it's 55 : 45 to 60 : 40 in MK's favor, I think just about everything that Ness can do to MK has been said already .

 

[Ayoub]

Why aren't there more MK mains here? O_o

I think it's 55 : 45 to 60 : 40 in MK's favor, I think just about everything that Ness can do to MK has been said already .

Is PK jump still the reason that it's 55-45?

 

[Eagleye893]

Hey, PK Ow changed his name!

He doesn't use PKjump. I'm the only one who does so far, which slightly improves ness' situation with some things. That's MY reason for 55:45 mk, but otherwise it lingers between 55:45 and 60:40.

 

[Ayoub]

Where did I say he used it, it was a question. And how do you know you're the only one who does it 'so far', I've seen other Ness' doing it aswell, lol. How does such a lame jump makes such a hard MU easier. It's like saying Pit-MK is 65-35 but because of arrowloops it's 55-45 cause in some situations you can chain Arrowloop into fsmash or bair. Best argument.

 

[PSI Nexus]

I didn't say anything about PK Jump

 

[Eagleye893]

Where did I say he used it, it was a question. And how do you know you're the only one who does it 'so far', I've seen other Ness' doing it aswell, lol. How does such a lame jump makes such a hard MU easier. It's like saying Pit-MK is 65-35 but because of arrowloops it's 55-45 cause in some situations you can chain Arrowloop into fsmash or bair. Best argument.

........................ Okay

My reasoning for saying I'm essentially the only one who does use PKjump is because EB360 was the only person to actually have it as a main part of his gameplay. Every other ness main disregarded the technique, saying they didn't want to use B-stick, but you aren't restricted to that, AND I have fast enough fingers to do most of the PKjump techniques.

^NOBODY ELSE USES IT IN SRS PLAY! THEY MAY USE IT, BUT ONLY TO TRY IT OUT!

How does it help? I said it essentially destroys Nado if the ness knows what he's doing. sure fair would've been ok, but PKjump is good as well, giving more than one option to stop the nado. ALSO, it is a fairly safe approaching option against many characters, if you know what you're doing. one may argue "MK upb, get pwnd." sure, that is valid. but we still have the option to nair if MK's reaction is slow enough (ness will be fairly high above MK as MK uses Upb, so ness will hit MK as he gets hit with a later part of upb without invincibility frames). you can airdodge and get away from it fairly easily. If you space the PKjump right, you don't land directly above/in front of MK, and there ness has some more advantages on MK. If ness ends up behind MK, bair and uair are both viable, depending on distance from MK. If ness lands well in front of MK, fair like you would for some other things. It's not like PKjump is a useless technique, like you have been saying for the past several pages. It's just a hugely underutilized technique.

Please stop trolling me. I CAN provide an answer to every single argument you give, and all you are doing is wasting my time and yours. In fact, I believe I've said the exact same thing about PKjump before.

Pit's arrow looping is an analogy that shouldn't be anywhere near practical. Arrow looping is predictable and will almost always be super telegraphed (the loops can be timed out if you are smart enough, and you can just avoid the hit of the arrow or shield quite a bit as it comes at you, expecting Pit to follow with something else). PKjump has several mixups, can be done out of every FH aerial except dair, and has some fairly safe options to ensure the 2nd jump isn't entirely wasted by the pkjump or get a hit on the opponent.

MK's speed may be a slight problem with PKjump, but it still provides good pressure with the aerials hitting where they do. Try out the technique at least first. Experiment with it. Don't be blind. Figure it out yourself before you say it is terrible.

 

[milesg2g]

Like I said earlier, Ness can fend himself against MK pretty well compared to other characters, but lets not 4get this isn't his MU. It's MK's like all are lol.

 

[Ayoub]

........................ Okay

My reasoning for saying I'm essentially the only one who does use PKjump is because EB360 was the only person to actually have it as a main part of his gameplay. Every other ness main disregarded the technique, saying they didn't want to use B-stick, but you aren't restricted to that, AND I have fast enough fingers to do most of the PKjump techniques.

^NOBODY ELSE USES IT IN SRS PLAY! THEY MAY USE IT, BUT ONLY TO TRY IT OUT!

How does it help? I said it essentially destroys Nado if the ness knows what he's doing. sure fair would've been ok, but PKjump is good as well, giving more than one option to stop the nado. ALSO, it is a fairly safe approaching option against many characters, if you know what you're doing. one may argue "MK upb, get pwnd." sure, that is valid. but we still have the option to nair if MK's reaction is slow enough (ness will be fairly high above MK as MK uses Upb, so ness will hit MK as he gets hit with a later part of upb without invincibility frames). you can airdodge and get away from it fairly easily. If you space the PKjump right, you don't land directly above/in front of MK, and there ness has some more advantages on MK. If ness ends up behind MK, bair and uair are both viable, depending on distance from MK. If ness lands well in front of MK, fair like you would for some other things. It's not like PKjump is a useless technique, like you have been saying for the past several pages. It's just a hugely underutilized technique.

Please stop trolling me. I CAN provide an answer to every single argument you give, and all you are doing is wasting my time and yours. In fact, I believe I've said the exact same thing about PKjump before.

Pit's arrow looping is an analogy that shouldn't be anywhere near practical. Arrow looping is predictable and will almost always be super telegraphed (the loops can be timed out if you are smart enough, and you can just avoid the hit of the arrow or shield quite a bit as it comes at you, expecting Pit to follow with something else). PKjump has several mixups, can be done out of every FH aerial except dair, and has some fairly safe options to ensure the 2nd jump isn't entirely wasted by the pkjump or get a hit on the opponent.

MK's speed may be a slight problem with PKjump, but it still provides good pressure with the aerials hitting where they do. Try out the technique at least first. Experiment with it. Don't be blind. Figure it out yourself before you say it is terrible.

Yes, because you know all competetive ness players who don't go on the boards and still use the tech. You know all european Ness, and all japanese ness withouw ever seeing them, and you're still able to say that you're the only Ness using this dumb technique.

Oh, jumping towards your opponent with some stupid PKfire with so many ending lag isn't predictable AT ALL. Arrowlooping is way more unpredictable then PKjump when used right, as in now shoot an arrow the other way and obviously loop it (with the crouching animation etc), lol.

I don't bother trying out such a technique, seeing a video about it and another Ness main doing it (yes, you're not the only one in the world who's dumb enough using something like this), and it's useless. You're only ****** your fingers, xD for what, looking flashy while no one notice whats the diffrence between a normal PKfire in the air or a PK jump aside of Ness mains who are on this boards.

 

[Lord Chair]

Ayoub, quit it.

/authority

 

[Eagleye893]

If you have seen someone else use the technique, then they obviously didn't know much about it. Also, it isn't a major thing. It's something you slip into your game a fairly small amount of time to keep your opponent unaware.

Ok, sure... There may be a handful of people who I don't know about, but as far as I can tell, there are no higher ranking ness mains who use pkjump. The reason for that isn't because it is bad, but because of the difficulty with controls and the seemingly unsafe way in which it happens. You even said you don't bother trying it out, because you think it's useless. Is psimagnet useless? Is pkflash useless? Is ftilt useless? Is dtilt useless? Sure those are moves, but methods in which I use them allow me to work them into situations that help me a ton. Now what's saying that I'm idiotic and don't know how to work in this technique? After all I do main ness. You obviously don't, because you've been saying that fair beats mk and that's the only reason.

Learn the character you are trying to argue about.

And I said stop trolling.

 

[Lord Chair]

Please, do not command Ayoub to do things. That's my job, trying to play a part in it only detracts from my capability to keep this beast under control.

 

[Ayoub]

If you have seen someone else use the technique, then they obviously didn't know much about it. Also, it isn't a major thing. It's something you slip into your game a fairly small amount of time to keep your opponent unaware.

Ok, sure... There may be a handful of people who I don't know about, but as far as I can tell, there are no higher ranking ness mains who use pkjump. The reason for that isn't because it is bad, but because of the difficulty with controls and the seemingly unsafe way in which it happens. You even said you don't bother trying it out, because you think it's useless. Is psimagnet useless? Is pkflash useless? Is ftilt useless? Is dtilt useless? Sure those are moves, but methods in which I use them allow me to work them into situations that help me a ton. Now what's saying that I'm idiotic and don't know how to work in this technique? After all I do main ness. You obviously don't, because you've been saying that fair beats mk and that's the only reason.

Learn the character you are trying to argue about.

And I said stop trolling.

Why do you think you're the best with that AT, you're no even known for something, rofl.

Like I said, you don't know all the high ranked Ness players from every country, region, city or whatever. How can you say such thing, omg. PKflash is useless yes, you'll never hit with that move in high level play. Just like PKjump fails, you say it's unsafe yourself lolz. Ftilt is good, dtilt is good. I didn't say you don't know how to use a useless AT, I just said it's useless. Why do you care anyway, it's just my (and a lot of other peoples) opinion. I said fair is good against MK, not that it totally beats MK, why are you talking about stuff I didn't say at all?

You obiously aren't a good Ness because you said Ness ftilt has more range than snake's, Ness recovery is better than MKs and Ness fsmash is stronger then Ganondorfs. True stuff.

I'm not trolling, I just share my awesome opinion. If you see it as trolling, why do you comment on my anyway? Because we're having a discussion, not a troll-fest.

Oki Chair, sorry boss. x)

 

[Lord Chair]

Now then, Eagleye, be a wise man and withhold yourself of being a smart guy by coming up with some grand, awe-commanding reply and further extending this worthless -due to a lack of better words- conversation.

Because frankly, there's no reason for you to do so.

Oh and yes, hereby I do give Ayoub the last word, be a grown-up and deal with it.

 

[Eagleye893]

OK... I'll take this like a man and go for intelligent discussion. It doesn't matter anyways, seeing as I've replied to several comments. I agree with you on that point, I was a bit over-reactive by seeing you deny whatever I was saying... but you had a point, because I literally haven't been seen in forever AND few of the top players has been using methods of play that I've been using. I say I've been basing my play partly off of all the top ness mains and their best assets while trying to readjust some things... But, I'm not perfect. Oh well.

I'm not even known for something partly because I haven't been to a tourney in over a year. I've been trying to help ness mains everywhere in my tourney absence by critiquing everyone's play and trying to add a little bit of useful information about matchups.

I stopped playing when I was at my lowest point mainly because of transportation issues. Now that's not a problem.... however, I have school to get through now. Many difficult courses and I've gotta get all these college things done (why am I procrastinating by posting on here? It's what I do.)

Okay... some minor flaws in your argument:

Nowhere did I say that ness' ftilt has more range than snakes ftilt... You inferred that. I just said it has fairly good range.
^on this point, My misunderstanding about your statement with fair is canceled out. I know that it wasn't what you meant, however you seemed to present little else for ness' better MU. Not saying you didn't, but fair was a bit more emphasized than any of the other points you may have mentioned.

with those, just disregard everything. I'm not writing paragraph explanations on my intentions in saying something.

I know pkflash is near useless, but i was just using it to create an example: it has it's uses and CAN do something. PKjump has many more potential uses than PKflash. Sure, they may not be superb, but they can help in some cases. Just like fair isn't 100% safe against everything (some things outrange/outprioritize, and you can get hit out of it's lagging frames somewhat easily). Just like some things won't lead into combos or whatever 100% of the time. Nearly nothing in this game is absolutely perfect. There is at least one way to get out of nearly everything (except ICs CG.... DANGIT!!!). Take note of that when considering anything.

One question that I have before I continue stating what I know about PKjump:

How exactly is it unsafe? In what ways do you see PKjump as a completely unviable option in higher levels of play? (please use as much detail as possible...)

Although things on the internet may never be read as their writer intended, I'm just saying that I'm trying to reply as calmly as possible. I'm willing to take in any consideration that you may have about ness' moves and stuff. So please tell me where I may be wronged in a way where I can see what you mean. I don't want an answer like "OMG YOU DON'T KNOW EVERY NESS MAIN IT WON'T WORK AT HIGH LEVELS OF PLAY IT'S NOT PERFECT [etc.]," because that doesn't help me to see your counter argument as to WHY it doesn't work. I want the WHY!!!

EDIT: also, it's Eagle. I made this name early, before I even knew Eagle eye was a movie. It's changed since, but smashboards doesn't allow an option to alter names...

EDIT2: sorry for any unintended "bossy-ness" in earlier posts. I never intended that.

Also, Can we just agree on the MU for MK being 55:45 in MK's favor? Is there any other thing that we've forgotten that might make it 60:40 MK?

 

[Jiffyboob]

No, we can't agree. This matchup is at least 60/40. MK limits our options way too much to be considered better than that.
w/e though, no one listens. I'm sure when it comes to Olimar, it'll probably be in our favor again. :embarrass

 

[Bartolon]

lol Olimar, he's ****ing easy.

 

[Ayoub]

I don't feel like reply on everything.

About the PK jump being unsafe, you said it yourself not me.

 

[Meru.]

Ignore Ayoub, he has trolled several boards already.

Also, this match-up cant be 55:45. Its not 'pretty even but MK has a little bit easier time', it's at least 6:4 MK. Ness isnt as good as Snake in this match-up @_@.

 

[Eagleye893]

I agree with 60:40... I'll try to argue down, but there's nearly no way anyone will agree... so no point in trying.

I just feel that MK doesn't particularly counter ness by much. MK does have his advantages over everyone, but I don't feel they are as significant as everyone else is putting them off to be.

60:40 MK... its good enough.

SKIP SNAKE!!! WE DID HIM FAIRLY RECENTLY!!! this is just a note for yink, so that if you make a snake vs ness thread, I'll say this again.

 

[Kole]

edit: nevermind actually

 

[M]

60-40 Sounds about right, I haven't really looked into this thread, but I'm sure all the good Ness mains have solid points covered.

Ness is still better than a good amount of other characters in the matchup though imo, which has to be a notable thing.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

I'd almost put it closer to 55:45 than 60:40...
But then again the characters I play best against (imo) are DDD and MK.

 

[milesg2g]

This is a MU Ness has to play extremely close to MK. In that I mean. If MK goes Aggro you must as well but outspace him perfectly w/ Fair or Nair. If MK doesn't play aggro and waits for you to approach you must do the same on the ground but approach w/ nice pkf's. If Dair camping takes place I'd say out space from below w/ Nair's because getting above mk or in the air w/ him while he's already dair camping can be disgusting.

 

[Eagleye893]

don't restrict yourself to any of those moves. All of them are easy to get through with MK. Keep in mind bair (best move for ness IMO) and uair for randoms. dtilt won't help much because mk can dsmash you easily. ftilt is meh. utilt isn't very great unless for the random high percent kill. pk fire is infinitely better with L as jump.... FH with PKfire using L to jump allows you to get the pkfire off instantly and you can use uair after it instead of only nair and DJ something. PKT = rare occasion or MK is offstage and you can tailwhip him well. no pkflash. no psimag. dash attack is okay for the range and somewhat for the speed, but I use it a lot... dsmash can get some crazy range stuffs and can also kill unbelievably quickly for an unsuspecting mk. usmash is meh. fsmash is blegh. bthrow is kill. dthrow is meh. fthrow is okay. uthrow is meh. oh well.

 

[Jiffyboob]

UThrow is amazing in this MU. You are almost guaranteed free damage afterwards.

 

[milesg2g]

Really now?

A good MK knows how to respond after a u throw. I've yet to see this work. Can you please tell me how it works because I do it to Snake but not MK lol.

 

[Jiffyboob]

PK Thunder is a really good follow up to UThrow. MetaKnight is a slow faller so he can't really dodge it. As a mid percentage throw becomes a really good option. FThrow is good for this too at whatever % but they have to DI it up.

Please tell me how a "good MK" responds to this and how we can't act and punish them trying to escape it accordingly. I've also been told here at the Ness boards that "good Lucario's" use Force Palm (side B) quite often and absorbing it is actually viable.

 

[Eagleye893]

Mk has a fairly quick ff... That's what I see as being a problem. You can predict that ff and tailwhip him or guide pkt to hit where his airdodge or ff'd aerial will end, but I say it is slightly more risky than other characters. He can just ff with an airdodge through it at just the right time and be fine to uber punish us.

 

[milesg2g]

PK Thunder is a really good follow up to UThrow. MetaKnight is a slow faller so he can't really dodge it. As a mid percentage throw becomes a really good option. FThrow is good for this too at whatever % but they have to DI it up.

Please tell me how a "good MK" responds to this and how we can't act and punish them trying to escape it accordingly. I've also been told here at the Ness boards that "good Lucario's" use Force Palm (side B) quite often and absorbing it is actually viable.

Dude you must not play good MK's lol.

Mk can just Dair camp after being tossed in the air.

Even if you happen to hit him he can come down fast enough to grab you because of how much lag Ness has on his starting and ending frames of the move. So, the risk is way higher than the 8 % reward imo.lol

 

[_clinton]

Yeah, IMO Fthrow is the best throw to follow up with if you don't have him at kill range.

 

[Jiffyboob]

A few things:
The height that UThrow puts MK leaves you pretty safe from DAir.
Dair doesn't cancel PKT.
If MK airdodges he will get hit with it.
MK fast fall is not quick, if anything, it's average at best.
If MK is more than 2 character lengths above you when you hit with PKT, you can't get punished.
I've played the best MK more than a few times.
Theorycrafting is at its finest in this board.

What I'm saying is it's a pretty good option. You would be silly not to use it at least a few times in a match.

Oh here's a list of info concerning fastfalls and what not: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329

Edit: Fthrow is good too

 

[milesg2g]

Yeah, IMO Fthrow is the best throw to follow up with if you don't have him at kill range.

I completely agree.

 

[Eagleye893]

Why exactly is theory-crafting always perceived as bad? Theorizing options based on knowledge you have from the game isn't an idiotic thing to do... I do it all the time, and it helps.

Also, anything can cancel pkt.... The opponent just needs to time and space right. If someone knows ness and can space it right, you're in a bit more trouble.

I judge my opponents as always being as smart or smarter than me. Assuming that your opponent will get beaten by a technique/move will lead to some punishment on you. It's not very certain that you will get mk offguard (I say about a 65% chance of getting some damage on mk), so I argue against it. I'd never have one of my team in FE attack if it was only 65% chance of hit.

I can agree with you to a point... But not entirely.

 

[*Tyson*]

I have played with Dojo on a constant bases now for about a year and a half. I think this match up is terrible. I will even go as far to say that it is in the 70:30 range. If the MK knows the match up

 

[Eagleye893]

He probably has adapted to your playstyle... Just saying. That could be a reason.

 

[milesg2g]

I have played with Dojo on a constant bases now for about a year and a half. I think this match up is terrible. I will even go as far to say that it is in the 70:30 range. If the MK knows the match up

I agree and don't agree on this. Ness is pretty ****ed if the MK knows the MU but that also means you should know it well. Nessers shouldn't think, "We can only **** pocket Mk's or Mk's that don't know the MU because we can't go toe to toe w/ a MK that knows it"

He probably has adapted to your playstyle... Just saying. That could be a reason.

And this ^

Ness can be several different ways. I know you know this already yink so I won't lecture.
but maybe he picked up on your habits and/or playstyle?

 

[*Tyson*]

Oh well yeah, i agree with you both.i can definitely say he knows my habits and play style. Not to mention he is arguably a top 5 player in the world. Things that normally work don't work anymore.

I don't think we can only beat pocket MK's or ones that don't know the match up, however at the high levels of play when Ness's have done amazing the opponent didn't know what to do in the slightest ( To my knowledge at least)

I mean i am all for being convinced otherwise. I guess just how i feel about it after the countless hours of beatings.

 

[Bartolon]

Oh well yeah, i agree with you both.i can definitely say he knows my habits and play style. Not to mention he is arguably a top 5 player in USA.

Fixed.
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