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Ness vs Dk matchup.
- Thread starter PKNintendo
- Start date
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Yes. But His Fsmash KO's at 70%, Upsmash at 60%. A downsmash that KO's at 110% isn't that much to worry about when facing DK. If DK had a grab release Upsmash on Ness...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fep5iWhCbTQ
Epic vid.
gantrain05
Smash Master
Well a lot of his attacks can KO characters at low or relatively decent percent.Yes. But His Fsmash KO's at 70%, Upsmash at 60%. A downsmash that KO's at 110% isn't that much to worry about when facing DK. If DK had a grab release Upsmash on Ness...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fep5iWhCbTQ
Epic vid.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
DK pros
- has incredible spacing against ness
this is pretty much indisputable against any character. DK has insane spacing. f tilt, bair, down b are all back the hell away moves. even though ness does most of his damage through the air these attacks still cause ness players some trouble.
- can kill ness at early 70% because DK=powerhouse
Yeah it's pretty rediculous how early DK can kill ness even though ness is midweight. a well spaced f smash, d smash, or DK punch will send ness into oblivion. I am not taking into account the grab release yet. you better have some good surviving skills or its over which brings me to ness' revovery
- can edge guard ness almost better than anyone else
you may not believe it but DK does have some of the best edge guarding options in the game. A ness coming back doesn't have much hope of surviving with a dk coming at him. DK can use 2 bairs and a dair, 4 bairs, or 2 fairs and nair, pretty much a barrage of attacks to edge guard any one coming back from any angle. DK also can reset his invincibility frames very fast to prevent ness from grabbing the egde. if the ness even makes it back on stage DK can just climb up and d smash
- grab release to d smash is a huge factor in this match up
sorry PKN, you may not think its that big of a deal but I think it is. If the ness gets out the regular way then DK can re grab ness before he can move. If the ness gets out far away then a d smash will sweetspot and kill ness around 95%. if the ness gets out backwords then you may be able to regrab since turning around only takes 1 frame and a standing grab will reach. EIDI may work in this situation, if it does then ignore this. even if you can't regrab going backwords then you can d smash and it will kill around 100% a huge factor that I think is important is that if ness just wait for the break out then DK can just walk to the edge and try to CSS you by (preferably) throwing you under the stage . Then guess what, you would need to break out so you don't die. then you break out the way you didn't want to and then its a free d smash you may not have been expecting and die. its a very bad spot to be in.
- DK lives well until late 120s unless spiked
yeah its true DK is very heavy and doesn't die early unless spiked. other than spiking ness can kill dk with a bair, f smash, or b throw. bair is strong but it just can't over come DK's weight. F smash can kill DK around 100% but its a little slow and usually DK has to be mindgamed into it. B throw is good but yet again, it just can't over come DK's weight. it'll kill dk around 120% an auto canceled fair to a jab then jab (so they can't grab) and then jab cancel grab is very effective.
- When DK's bair collides with Ness' fair Dk's bair still does 13% or 5% weak but ness' fair does 2-4% because the following hits are canceled
its true that ness' fair out prioritizes DK's bair more often but when the above happens it slowly goes to DK
Ness' pros
- Ness has a better aerial game that DK except off stage (it's equal)
Ness has a very good aerial game. PKT 1 can basicly hit DK no matter what when he's in the air. dodge, attack, or jump it will hit DK more often than not. FAir auto cancels and can lead to almost ground attack or grab. bair is also really good just enough shield pressure so that it can't be shield grabed if spaced right.
- PKT 1 is a very useful weapon against DK
yeah like I said, its good. it'll hit DK quite a few times if you know how to control it. you can even edgeguard DK with it if you hit him with the tail of it
- ness spike DK very well
I'm not saying that itsd easy to get DK off the stage in any way but when he is off stage a fair then double jump is good and when DK loses his second jump off stage he is pretty much screwed at any %
- ness' grab game is very good against DK
d throw to fair at low % is pretty much inescapable because you should be able to read a dodge or a jump and then leads to another fair in some cases
up throw to PKT 1 or PKT2 is actually plausible
- PK fire leads to a smash sometimes
yeah it can sometimes, up b will actually allow DK to get out of the fire. but if you don't have anywhere to go then it leads to a free f smash from ness or a grab. PK fire can actually lead to an edge guard against DK since it will actually bring him down and then you can spike him, but again the problem is getting DK to a low point off the stage.
The match up is 55-45 DK in my opinion with these highlights
- has incredible spacing against ness
this is pretty much indisputable against any character. DK has insane spacing. f tilt, bair, down b are all back the hell away moves. even though ness does most of his damage through the air these attacks still cause ness players some trouble.
- can kill ness at early 70% because DK=powerhouse
Yeah it's pretty rediculous how early DK can kill ness even though ness is midweight. a well spaced f smash, d smash, or DK punch will send ness into oblivion. I am not taking into account the grab release yet. you better have some good surviving skills or its over which brings me to ness' revovery
- can edge guard ness almost better than anyone else
you may not believe it but DK does have some of the best edge guarding options in the game. A ness coming back doesn't have much hope of surviving with a dk coming at him. DK can use 2 bairs and a dair, 4 bairs, or 2 fairs and nair, pretty much a barrage of attacks to edge guard any one coming back from any angle. DK also can reset his invincibility frames very fast to prevent ness from grabbing the egde. if the ness even makes it back on stage DK can just climb up and d smash
- grab release to d smash is a huge factor in this match up
sorry PKN, you may not think its that big of a deal but I think it is. If the ness gets out the regular way then DK can re grab ness before he can move. If the ness gets out far away then a d smash will sweetspot and kill ness around 95%. if the ness gets out backwords then you may be able to regrab since turning around only takes 1 frame and a standing grab will reach. EIDI may work in this situation, if it does then ignore this. even if you can't regrab going backwords then you can d smash and it will kill around 100% a huge factor that I think is important is that if ness just wait for the break out then DK can just walk to the edge and try to CSS you by (preferably) throwing you under the stage . Then guess what, you would need to break out so you don't die. then you break out the way you didn't want to and then its a free d smash you may not have been expecting and die. its a very bad spot to be in.
- DK lives well until late 120s unless spiked
yeah its true DK is very heavy and doesn't die early unless spiked. other than spiking ness can kill dk with a bair, f smash, or b throw. bair is strong but it just can't over come DK's weight. F smash can kill DK around 100% but its a little slow and usually DK has to be mindgamed into it. B throw is good but yet again, it just can't over come DK's weight. it'll kill dk around 120% an auto canceled fair to a jab then jab (so they can't grab) and then jab cancel grab is very effective.
- When DK's bair collides with Ness' fair Dk's bair still does 13% or 5% weak but ness' fair does 2-4% because the following hits are canceled
its true that ness' fair out prioritizes DK's bair more often but when the above happens it slowly goes to DK
Ness' pros
- Ness has a better aerial game that DK except off stage (it's equal)
Ness has a very good aerial game. PKT 1 can basicly hit DK no matter what when he's in the air. dodge, attack, or jump it will hit DK more often than not. FAir auto cancels and can lead to almost ground attack or grab. bair is also really good just enough shield pressure so that it can't be shield grabed if spaced right.
- PKT 1 is a very useful weapon against DK
yeah like I said, its good. it'll hit DK quite a few times if you know how to control it. you can even edgeguard DK with it if you hit him with the tail of it
- ness spike DK very well
I'm not saying that itsd easy to get DK off the stage in any way but when he is off stage a fair then double jump is good and when DK loses his second jump off stage he is pretty much screwed at any %
- ness' grab game is very good against DK
d throw to fair at low % is pretty much inescapable because you should be able to read a dodge or a jump and then leads to another fair in some cases
up throw to PKT 1 or PKT2 is actually plausible
- PK fire leads to a smash sometimes
yeah it can sometimes, up b will actually allow DK to get out of the fire. but if you don't have anywhere to go then it leads to a free f smash from ness or a grab. PK fire can actually lead to an edge guard against DK since it will actually bring him down and then you can spike him, but again the problem is getting DK to a low point off the stage.
The match up is 55-45 DK in my opinion with these highlights
Okay, my two cents regarding the video …
Ref, that is definitely a good video, but it doesn’t stand as conclusive testimony on its own. Who won the set? Any other vids available from the set?
At the end, Bum wasn’t even close to KOing damage (i.e., 150+). No one’s trying to say that DK absolutely counters Ness, and that single video by itself, if anything, I’d think would only help to establish the matchup as slightly in DK’s favour. : /
Ref, that is definitely a good video, but it doesn’t stand as conclusive testimony on its own. Who won the set? Any other vids available from the set?
At the end, Bum wasn’t even close to KOing damage (i.e., 150+). No one’s trying to say that DK absolutely counters Ness, and that single video by itself, if anything, I’d think would only help to establish the matchup as slightly in DK’s favour. : /
Gaussis
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2008
- Messages
- 903
Ness can kill DK way before the 150% mark with a bthrow or uair.
The video may not establish anything on its own, but it does give an insight to as to what both players and characters are capable of. Both made their share of mistakes with Bum winning at the end of the vid.
The video may not establish anything on its own, but it does give an insight to as to what both players and characters are capable of. Both made their share of mistakes with Bum winning at the end of the vid.
Well, as far as this one video shows, in its hopelessly limited context, Ref didn’t off Bum until well past that point. And it seems possible that Bum isn’t aware of the grab release option …? He certainly doesn’t appear to be as intimate with this matchup as he is most others. At least let us see the whole set.
I’d listen to what Ripple has concluded, it’s been a long dialogue, and he’s definitely given this a lot of careful thought and weighed up what everyone else has said, so …
I’d listen to what Ripple has concluded, it’s been a long dialogue, and he’s definitely given this a lot of careful thought and weighed up what everyone else has said, so …
Criosphinx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,916
Slightly in favor of DK, for reasons outlined already. I don't think that DK is even with Ness off-stage, though. And a good Ness can use PKT2 to recover in such a sense that it is extremely hard to gimp him. Ness' recovery game is not great, of course; he's not a complete loss, though.
I most certainly think MK, Pit, D3, Rob, and various others can gimp Ness far better than DK.
Criosphinx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,916
Modified for correctness.
CBK I only picked Ness like once against you in FRIENDLIES and my Ness IMO isn't the best...I just like him for specific matchups. Vicegrip's Ness (from socal) is a lot better than mine, I wouldn't judge anything based on mine. I've been wokring on my ness a lot the past week and its getting better but especially when you played me my ness was pretty bad ...not a good way to determine the matchup hehe. I don't remember how the match went though
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
i got wrecked by a Ness player in a recent local tourney... something about my bairs getting wrecked by his fairs without trading hits....
something that has gone without much mention is DK's size
his hurtbox is so big that ness is bound to hit something with those lousy fairs, and he can juggle DK easily with them
something that has gone without much mention is DK's size
his hurtbox is so big that ness is bound to hit something with those lousy fairs, and he can juggle DK easily with them
i1337
Smash Ace
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Yeah, I would say DK has a small advantage over Ness, Ripple schooled me yesterday with DK against my Ness.
I need more fairs and dairs.
Pivot dance cargo throw down smash basically is top tier.
I need more fairs and dairs.
Pivot dance cargo throw down smash basically is top tier.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
that was possibly the funniest game ever, other than me vs. legan in melee
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
So it's 55-45 for DK?
Thanks for the help Ripple and friends, we Ness mains appreciate it.
Thanks for the help Ripple and friends, we Ness mains appreciate it.
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
To Ripple:
That match was super fun, I wish I wouldn't of suicided with TL, I was holding up pre' well.
It was cool talkin' to you this time, you're aight I guess..
I'm working on uploading those matches now, along with making a neat highlight video!
The videos turned out top notch, for not having a capture device.
To PK:
Yeah I would have to stand behind that as well.
If not a 60 - 40 but that almost seems too much.
That match was super fun, I wish I wouldn't of suicided with TL, I was holding up pre' well.
It was cool talkin' to you this time, you're aight I guess..
I'm working on uploading those matches now, along with making a neat highlight video!
The videos turned out top notch, for not having a capture device.
To PK:
Yeah I would have to stand behind that as well.
If not a 60 - 40 but that almost seems too much.
haha thanks Crio
The Milk Monster
Smash Champion
Ripple, some of your matches are up!
Will post the rest later tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iGSPe1hyRM
Will post the rest later tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iGSPe1hyRM