Ness' PK Fire

[Dj75728]

By no means am I saying that Ness' PK Fire is broke or anything like that, but I have to ask you Ness players, what are the best ways to avoid and/or punish it. When I get hit by pk fire I can't DI to get high enough to not get grabbed or can I easily DI out of the flame. Am I doing something wrong? Pk Fire is so ridiculous in tram fights. I'd appreciate some help and insight in the moves properties etc from you Ness players.


If this is in the wrong section please move mods.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

If you get hit SDI up and to the side.

It's slow and predictable, dodge, shield, roll, spotdodge, just don't get hit.

 

[Dj75728]

SDI, didn't think of that. That's when you DI with the analog and c-stick right? Nice avi btw, love BB

 

[G13_Flux]

u wouldnt use the c stick for sdi. sdi is where u can move your character around during hitlag (the couple frames of lag right when the attack connects). u can use this to ledgetech (sdi straight into the stage and tech) or u can get a lower or higher angle of launch to help u live longer.

however, since pk fire is a multi hit attack, u can use the c stick to control the asdi, which is bassically a much smaller version of sdi except it occurs after hitlag when ur in hit stun. since there are lots of hits when ur in hitlag and lots of gaps in between hits that ur in hitstun, you can effectively use both the control stick (sdi) and c stick (asdi) to get out of it quicker. the only thing is that the way pk fire is designed, it is very hard to get out of it quickly compared to most multihit attacks even with good double stick di (the control stick and c stick scheme i just detailed). so i would recomend anticipating when ness would use it, and keeping good tabs on ur spacing so that u dont fall directly in its line of fire. in other words dont stay on the ground in front of him, use empty short hops just outside its range. and if he jumps in the air in front of u, either get underneath and pressure him from below, or just jump with him if u have disjointed aerials that can beat out his fair, as this is ness' most likely approach other than pk fire if hes in the air.

prevention is the key word here. just dont get hit by pk fire or ull be comboed all day

edit: so bassically, yes u would use the double stick DI like u mentioned. i was just being picky about the terminology and the specific applications. but bassically double stick DI is only useful whenever ur in a multi hit situation, or when u need to nudge ursefl against the florr/wall/ceiling to tech when ur already in hitstun.

 

[Nkguy01]

I spam it...I spam it a lot. Even though good players will sdi quickly...they still have to put in an effort to do so. Not only that, but a good Ness player will most probably wait and see how the opponent reacts and punish accordingly. I know it demoralizes them like a mother. I am a bad person.

Also, anyone else bummed out that he doesn't yell pk fire after every forward-b? suppose it works as a method of concealing the pk fire, but his yelling out of his specials is one of his various quirks that I adore.

 

[Bryonato]

Pk fire is easily one of the best projectiles in the game. I love playing off of an opponent's reaction to the firewall.

 

[GMaster171]

Also, anyone else bummed out that he doesn't yell pk fire after every forward-b? suppose it works as a method of concealing the pk fire, but his yelling out of his specials is one of his various quirks that I adore.

This.

Also, its too annoying to spam "OKAY" now, should be as easymode as showmeyamoves is.

About PKF, I don't use it much, my main friends have learned to go around it most of the time, and the other players PS/avoid/DI out very well. I probably should use it more, but meh.

 

[Deleted member]

Fun fact about PK Fire: Using it multiple times doesn't cancel the others. So, you can have 2+ PK fires active hitting an opponent. For some reason (Probably since there are two PK Fire hitboxes) if you use a BAT, or anything with knockback like a BAIR, both PK Fire hitboxes will somehow cancel the knockback. That way, you can rack up major damage fast, MULTIPLE TIMES (Of course, the PK Fires fizzle out, but you have enough time to PK-Fire x2/3 and then do a few Bats).
When there are two PK Fires out, if they are in the right position, it's really hard (if not impossible) to DI out of them. This technique I have coined as 'Fobbling'. Using this, Ness can make opponents go from 0-DEATH.

"Nus is OP, now and forever."

 

[The_NZA]

Fun fact about PK Fire: Using it multiple times doesn't cancel the others. So, you can have 2+ PK fires active hitting an opponent. For some reason (Probably since there are two PK Fire hitboxes) if you use a BAT, or anything with knockback like a BAIR, both PK Fire hitboxes will somehow cancel the knockback. That way, you can rack up major damage fast, MULTIPLE TIMES (Of course, the PK Fires fizzle out, but you have enough time to PK-Fire x2/3 and then do a few Bats).
When there are two PK Fires out, if they are in the right position, it's really hard (if not impossible) to DI out of them. This technique I have coined as 'Fobbling'. Using this, Ness can make opponents go from 0-DEATH.

"Nus is OP, now and forever."

The PKfire is still DIable and most likely two pkfires from the same side won't trap the opponent if htey DI well. Somes its fun though to do DJC pkfire/DJCbreversal pkfires on each side of the opponent, over and over and over again.

 

[Bryonato]

I've usually found that the opponent can DI out of the first before the 2nd one gets there. Best way to rack up damage while they're trapped in pkf is to djc dair. can usually get in 1-3 if you're quick enough.


Mostly I just grab peeps though.

 

[CaptinMoses]

Fire sets up great for a grab, which you can use to chain certain characters like Bowser with F-air > Regrab at 0%

 

[CaptinMoses]

Providing, of course, that you read the DI

 

[Xebenkeck]

Pk fire to 1-3 DJC dairs is the best way to go from my experience. People don't tend to tech the dairs much either. They're too panicked to realize whats happening.

 

[SouthernGent]

I should probably start using the DJC dairs I always forget that is an option.

When I get PK fire to break I do a forward running bair (not a RAR because you don't turn around, you just run and slightly before you reach the opponent you short hop and press backwards on the c-stick) I have found that doing this leads to several nice follow ups such as:

When your opponent shields

1. If your opponent shields but is not stuck in the PK fire then the knock back from the bair still puts them right back into the PK fire and you can apply shield pressure or just go right for the grab.
2. Other times your opponent will drop the shield and it still will hit them back into the PK fire, sometimes it catches for a follow up other times it doesn't.

When PK fire connects

1. If PK fire connects then by doing the forward running bair (if there is a name for that I am unaware of someone please tell me) you can add some extra damage, not as much as DJC dairing, while also still have time for other follow ups.
2. If PK Fire connects but the sweet spot from the bair hits them out then you can follow up using PK flash.
3. and last but not least if PK Fire connects but you do the forward running bair a little early and you get the sour spot it can hit your opponent the direction you were running (and chances are that is the direction they were DIing so the chances of them getting hit out are pretty high) and if your opponent is a mid-weight or fast faller you can follow up with a bat.

 

[Xebenkeck]

If your a FF, SDI straight down, and shield. You WILL powershield the pillar everytime.

 

[Red(SP)]

I recommend studying the trends of PK Fire when they make contact on the foe's shield.
When D3 shields, he's almost immediately pushed out of the pillar and probably raring to shield grab the poor lil' guy.

I did a bit of this testing on the older shields to see how and what would be easier to cause a shield break midgame.
On Melee shields however, I don't know how this would occur. I'm actually pumped to try it out later this week.

 

[Yashichi]

I've been throwing out PK Fire more often than I was in 2.6b, and it's been connecting a whole lot more. Not sure if it's because of the Melee shields, but everyone I play against seems to be getting more frustrated than usual. It doesn't help that I'm tech chasing them with another PK Fire, but still.

 

[ThirstenHunger]

PKF is broken...My best friend and rival has been a ness user since melee so 'm used to his playstyle, but the fact that PKF kept the brawl attribute of igniting on shields is crazy....the amount of shield pressure that allows is dumb against medium weighted characters and just insane against big heavy characters....if you shield the PKF its a guaranteed grab or roll read into another PKF...yes you can DI out of it but as someone else stated already, a really good ness player will just wait a few seconds to see what you are doing and react accordingly...the only reason I WOULDNT lobby for changing it is because it hasnt been abused on a large scale yet so I dont have to worry about facing a lot of really good Ness users at local tournements...and in the smash community if its not tourney proven...it doesnt exist

 

[Xebenkeck]

DI and Jump then?

 

[Nido]

PKF kept the brawl attribute of igniting on shields

Wrong, it didn't activate on shield in Brawl.

 

[The_NZA]

PKF is broken...My best friend and rival has been a ness user since melee so 'm used to his playstyle, but the fact that PKF kept the brawl attribute of igniting on shields is crazy....the amount of shield pressure that allows is dumb against medium weighted characters and just insane against big heavy characters....if you shield the PKF its a guaranteed grab or roll read into another PKF...yes you can DI out of it but as someone else stated already, a really good ness player will just wait a few seconds to see what you are doing and react accordingly...the only reason I WOULDNT lobby for changing it is because it hasnt been abused on a large scale yet so I dont have to worry about facing a lot of really good Ness users at local tournements...and in the smash community if its not tourney proven...it doesnt exist

My recommendation would be to shield Di (if you tilt the stick while in shield, you actually do DI out of the hits) and buffer a roll with the cstick ASAP.

It's not broken, but its REALLLY good.

 

[ThirstenHunger]

My recommendation would be to shield Di (if you tilt the stick while in shield, you actually do DI out of the hits) and buffer a roll with the cstick ASAP.

It's not broken, but its REALLLY good.

You are right...there are times that if you shield correctly, you can roll out...the flame wall will still be there and you can only roll backwards out of it setting you up for a roll read PKF with even less space to work with...all you can do is jump or continue to go backwards...it just really limits your options fast...not hating on it at all because i LOVE that PKF makes ness a contender...in fact i think it makes for a better reason for people to learn other characters...if you are a ganon or falcon main you WILL GET COOKED lol...lets not even talk about bowser mains...but floaty characters tend to do really well against PKF since they can DI up and back out of PKF pretty well, avoiding the grab and forcing a weaker aerial if caught from medium to long distance (worst case is Bair or bat or something if caught too close)...


as a sidenote...my crew plays a lot of doubles and I LOVE PKF with team attack on

 

[thesage]

They need to balance it so that you can't SDI out of it, but it's not horrendously broken on hit. Ness really needs a good spacing option at higher levels of play. It was one of his major weakness in melee and 64. I don't really see Ness being viable otherwise.

 

[WizKid911]

Pk fire is extremely cheap and borderline broken. I understand that you can avoid it but that is pretty much the only option to avoid it other than power shield or reversal. It hits too many times and it draws you in. I itthink it should either push you back or only have 3 consecutive hits. Fire is 9 times out of 10 an instant grab into either a backair or otherwise. It promotes cheapness. My friend plays him and he is good with mind games but almost every kill consists of pkfire. Its just dumb.

 

[The_NZA]

Pk fire is extremely cheap and borderline broken. I understand that you can avoid it but that is pretty much the only option to avoid it other than power shield or reversal. It hits too many times and it draws you in. I itthink it should either push you back or only have 3 consecutive hits. Fire is 9 times out of 10 an instant grab into either a backair or otherwise. It promotes cheapness. My friend plays him and he is good with mind games but almost every kill consists of pkfire. Its just dumb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzGFooXC-1U

Research is an interesting thing. Also, spot dodging is pretty good. Or, you know, spacing/jumping. It is a dumb projectile that is overcentralizing to Ness's game, but it's hardly broken.

 

[WizKid911]

Alright I see that it is possible to get out of but why should a player have to struggle to get out of a side b move that is used so often. Players that arent as skilled will be in for a lot of hurt. I barely use the c stick. I dont even use it to fight. I will try that out though. Its just why do you have to do soo much to get out of that attack.

 

[Bryonato]

oh FFS.

Alright I see that it is possible to get out of but why should a player have to struggle to get out of a side b move that is used so often. Players that arent as skilled will be in for a lot of hurt. I barely use the c stick. I dont even use it to fight. I will try that out though. Its just why do you have to do soo much to get out of that attack.

Sounds like it's time to adapt.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I've a friend that seems to effortlessly get out of PK Fire, and one that seems to really struggle with it. It's all a case of learning what to do to escape it. It's really not that hard.

 

[WizKid911]

I will try this out and see if it works. I have a question though. If people can get out of it so easily then why does it matter to you if they make a small change? Even with my mains I can admit if something is a little ridiculous sometimes. My friend thinks that snakes up b is crazy. I said I know. If they were to make it go up a shorter distance then it wouldn't bother me. You guys can honestly sit there and tell me that that move is absolutely perfect and needs no changes?

 

[The_NZA]

I will try this out and see if it works. I have a question though. If people can get out of it so easily then why does it matter to you if they make a small change? Even with my mains I can admit if something is a little ridiculous sometimes. My friend thinks that snakes up b is crazy. I said I know. If they were to make it go up a shorter distance then it wouldn't bother me. You guys can honestly sit there and tell me that that move is absolutely perfect and needs no changes?

I almost don't know a ness player that doesn't think it needs a change. But it isn't broken.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I will try this out and see if it works. I have a question though. If people can get out of it so easily then why does it matter to you if they make a small change? Even with my mains I can admit if something is a little ridiculous sometimes. My friend thinks that snakes up b is crazy. I said I know. If they were to make it go up a shorter distance then it wouldn't bother me. You guys can honestly sit there and tell me that that move is absolutely perfect and needs no changes?

Ness isn't my main, but nothing he does seems ridiculous or too silly like other characters were. He was one of the few characters in 3.0 that received no changes at all, maybe the PMBR is satisfied with what he's capable of.

 

[WizKid911]

I didn't say it was broken. I said that it was borderline broken. The fact that you can get out of it shows that its not broken but it is still something that needs adjusting

Edit: they aren't perfect. PMBR wouldn't be as far as they are now without people like us letting them know about things like this. Just like game designers put out a game thinking it would be a good idea or have good elements and then people complain about it. Cough cough... Brawl.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I didn't say it was broken. I said that it was borderline broken. The fact that you can get out of it shows that its not broken but it is still something that needs adjusting

Edit: they aren't perfect. PMBR wouldn't be as far as they are now without people like us letting them know about things like this. Just like game designers put out a game thinking it would be a good idea or have good elements and then people complain about it. Cough cough... Brawl.

It really does sound like you're just complaining that you have to adapt to the attack. We all have to adapt to the ways different characters play. PK Fire doesn't come out instantly, you can't chase after it like you can Mario's fireballs or Falco's lasers and it only covers two different angles.

It's a good attack, but in no way is it even close to being broken as it is. If you don't DI/SDI the right way, you deserve to take whatever attack comes next. My friend that does manage to get out of it isn't that great at the game overall, but he never seems to have a problem escaping it, which is more than enough proof to me that it's pretty balanced right now.

Out of curiosity though, what would you do to "fix" it?

 

[WizKid911]

What I suggested earlier was reducing the amount of times the attack actually hits. I am not sure how many times it connects without DI. If it only hits 3 times then thats less time to be punished for the person taking the hits, but enough time to where ness can combo after it. Whether it draws you in or not I could care less with 3 hits. Orrrr it could keep the amount of hits but push you outward. Both contenders still have options depending on timing. Im not a complainer, its just when I see people on here that play ness that know how cheap the move can be that doesn't make me want to deal with it and suck it up. It makes me believe that they don't feel it needs a change because it benefits them. If I feel like something is cheap then I will compromise because the entire game should be balanced.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

What I suggested earlier was reducing the amount of times the attack actually hits. I am not sure how many times it connects without DI. If it only hits 3 times then thats less time to be punished for the person taking the hits, but enough time to where ness can combo after it. Whether it draws you in or not I could care less with 3 hits. Orrrr it could keep the amount of hits but push you outward. Both contenders still have options depending on timing. Im not a complainer, its just when I see people on here that play ness that know how cheap the move can be that doesn't make me want to deal with it and suck it up. It makes me believe that they don't feel it needs a change because it benefits them. If I feel like something is cheap then I will compromise because the entire game should be balanced.

I agree with that justification, but I don't see it as cheap. More often than not, PK Fire doesn't benefit me that much except against my friend who doesn't seem to be able to escape, but that's his problem, not a problem inherent to the move.

I sincerely do not see the move as cheap, it's simply just effective in certain situations, as are many moves.

 

[WizKid911]

Out of the four smashers in my group, one being the ness user, the 3 of us that he fights always gets caught in it. If I had video then I could show you. And that friend is potentially the best out of all of us, so it just feels like something needs to be done. Im taking your guy' advice though. Haven't had a chance to try it out but I will soon hopefully

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Out of the four smashers in my group, one being the ness user, the 3 of us that he fights always gets caught in it. If I had video then I could show you. And that friend is potentially the best out of all of us, so it just feels like something needs to be done. Im taking your guy' advice though. Haven't had a chance to try it out but I will soon hopefully

When you put it that way, it really does feel like you're just angry that you're getting caught in it so much and wanting the game changed in order to help you out.

Practice the DI to get out of PK Fire, and I assure you, PK Fire won't be the bane of your existence like it used to be. Or you could take it a step further and try to counterpick the Ness player with someone who possesses a reflector. I guarantee he won't be so PK Fire happy against the threat of having his attack bounced back at him.

 

[Red(SP)]

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Spoiler

I'm going to show my friend this, maybe he'll understand how easy it is to get out of.

 

[Kayo]

I've always said that Ness' greatest strength is the opponents lack of knowledge or experience. Or I could just be bad.

also dat name change