Ness' PK Fire

[Bryonato]

I like what you did there.

 

[jdmcwombat]

Crouch cancel and shield it.

 

[CardiganBoy]

You can also use PSI Shield.....

 

[Bryonato]

psi magnet*

 

[thesage]

Pk fire is a move that works on noobs but is kinda useless on anybody that knows how to get out of it. I honestly think Pk flash is broken as ****, but nobody knows how to use it except me so Imma be quiet now.

 

[Bryonato]

whatever you say, man

 

[Zujx]

This was posted in a different thread just passing it on this is a video tutorial on how easy it is to get out of PK fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzGFooXC-1U

 

[ccthirteen]

I'm fairly new to having Ness as my main (either Ness,Samus or Mario) and i'm obviously looking to improve my game. I'm finding a good Combo to be pk fire, dash and grab, then down throw. My question is whether or not they're still taking damage from being in the pk fire while ness is doing his Dance on them. Also, I'm going to find a better combo in general.

 

[jdmcwombat]

I'm fairly new to having Ness as my main (either Ness,Samus or Mario) and i'm obviously looking to improve my game. I'm finding a good Combo to be pk fire, dash and grab, then down throw. My question is whether or not they're still taking damage from being in the pk fire while ness is doing his Dance on them. Also, I'm going to find a better combo in general.

The PK fire still does damage if you hold them or down throw them in it.

 

[jdmcwombat]

I'm going to find a better combo in general.

Short hop PKF to down air to jab reset if they land outside of the fire. Grab if they don't.

 

[ccthirteen]

Sounds like a good idea. I'll have to give that a try.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Hey everyone. I don't frequent character discussions much, so I hope I'm not intruding.

I actually posted an idea for a Ness buff a while ago and hoped to get feedback, but I didn't. However, it concerns PK Fire, so maybe it belongs better here.

I just thought of a good Ness buff. I don't know if it's been suggested before though, so correct me if it has.

While I don't like Ness being really reliable on PK Fire like the PMBR decided, I can respect that. But, seeing as people have figured out how to deal with it, rendering its usefulness limited, here's a buff for it:

Aerial PK Fire into the ground would activate.

I thought of this for a while and I think it gives Ness a lot more options. Like, now it's a ground hazard, a very tall one too. Ness' opponents would have to jump over the pillar or shield dodge past it. This leaves them open for more of Ness' tilts or aerials, maybe even grabs.

I'm not a big Ness player, though (I'm more of a Lucas player, but I like using both brothers from another Mother), so if you guys see problems with this, I'd like to hear them.

Lemme know what you guys think.

 

[jdmcwombat]

Hey everyone. I don't frequent character discussions much, so I hope I'm not intruding.

I actually posted an idea for a Ness buff a while ago and hoped to get feedback, but I didn't. However, it concerns PK Fire, so maybe it belongs better here.



Lemme know what you guys think.

I think this is genius, but it could be OP in practice.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I think this is genius, but it could be OP in practice.

Yeah I'm not sure how to balance this, but I really think Ness needs this. For the first few months I played Project M back when 2.1 came out he felt the most awesome to me. But after playing against a lot of the other characters I felt Ness' options were pretty limited and DAMN does he suck against Marth.

This buff could change that, IMHO. If this needs to be balanced, the PK Fire could only last like 2/3 the duration it does now.

Any other buffs that have been suggested for Ness besides mine?

 

[Nido]

I wish Ness' Dair came out on frame 1, had Brawl Dair's power, has the range of Marth's Dair, infinite priority, was a true spike and renews our double jump when used.

This might be slightly over the top though.

 

[The_NZA]

Hey everyone. I don't frequent character discussions much, so I hope I'm not intruding.

I actually posted an idea for a Ness buff a while ago and hoped to get feedback, but I didn't. However, it concerns PK Fire, so maybe it belongs better here.



Lemme know what you guys think.

yeah, I think this would only make Ness MORE reliant on PKfire spam. I think Ness needs his core attributes improved (speed, mobility) so that he doesn't have to rely on a projectile to control space.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

yeah, I think this would only make Ness MORE reliant on PKfire spam. I think Ness needs his core attributes improved (speed, mobility) so that he doesn't have to rely on a projectile to control space.

I see. What are the buffs you have in mind, then? I've seen a suggestion that you should airdodge out of PSI Magnet instead of double jumping first. This could make him more flexible and mobile, right?

You seem like a big Ness main so I'm curious about your input.

 

[The_NZA]

I see. What are the buffs you have in mind, then? I've seen a suggestion that you should airdodge out of PSI Magnet instead of double jumping first. This could make him more flexible and mobile, right?

You seem like a big Ness main so I'm curious about your input.

I don't think airdodge out of Magnet would do much. That saves you what: 3 frames to WD out of magnet that you wouldn't ordinarily have? I don't see that being a huge deciding factor.

I've spoken extensively how I'd like Ness to be changed. I posted much of my prior thinking of the topic here:
What changes do YOU want for ness?

But to be honest, I have some new thoughts on it. Ness's punish game is strong and his aerials are in a very good place. What Ness actually struggles with are characters with great space control, whether thats Zelda and Link with their projectile game, or sword users like Marth with their access to quick moves that outrange him. The PMBR is usually hesitant to influence core character attributes because they don't want to alienate either melee vets or users of hte character to learn how to use him in new ways, but honestly I think it is ness's core attributes that are the problem.

He can feign being mobile, with DJC, but its highly commital and always a little bit of a gamble. Against space control characters, its hard to get into the position to commit or you just have a way worse gamble ahead of you. I think one answer that would help Ness is to make magnet in neutral a superior option, and to give him better tools to navigate a labrynth of space control.

My answer to these problems involves changing some of the attributes to Ness's dash. It's distance is great, but it needs to be faster. I don't know what variables you have to play with, and maybe someone else in Brawlbox can mess around with this stuff (for science!), but I imagine if he was faster on the ground, his dash dance game would help him deal a lot better with a marth (or a sheik) and approach a retreating Zelda or get through a labrynth created by Link a lot better.

Also, I imagine by increasing his dash speed, Ness would carry more momentum out of a dash->jump. This means all of his aerial approaches would have a natural increase in their range, and his opportunity to bait out a response, commit harder/safer would be improved. It ALSO means magnet in the air would carry more momentum, meaning you wouldn't be a slow blue hurtbox floating into your opponent, hoping he's dumb enough not to hit you out of it.

So yeah: I think the dash is essential to improve.

The second problem he has is against projectile characters like Link or Zelda. I think he needs better ways of clanking with projectiles and still being a threat to the opponent. The Idea I had (originally Ggmasters) was adding hitboxes on nair so it covers ness better in front of him. In it's current form, Ness is actually protected better behind him than in front of him. The other solution I've been playing with is adding a LOT of IASA frames after nair hitboxes end. That way, you could nair a projectile as you short hop approach, and then use another aerial when you are on top of the opponent. That would also make sourspotted nair a much more reliable combo option. So yeah, conservatively, I think ness needs AT LEAST the 3 following changes to help him deal better with his problems.

1. Faster dash (same length)
2. fixed nair hitbox
3. nair IASA frames so that he can nair through projectiles and continue to apply pressure in a jump.

All of it is pretty fair when you consider Ness has no range or ground game.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I don't think airdodge out of Magnet would do much. That saves you what: 3 frames to WD out of magnet that you wouldn't ordinarily have? I don't see that being a huge deciding factor.

I've spoken extensively how I'd like Ness to be changed. I posted much of my prior thinking of the topic here:
What changes do YOU want for ness?

But to be honest, I have some new thoughts on it. Ness's punish game is strong and his aerials are in a very good place. What Ness actually struggles with are characters with great space control, whether thats Zelda and Link with their projectile game, or sword users like Marth with their access to quick moves that outrange him. The PMBR is usually hesitant to influence core character attributes because they don't want to alienate either melee vets or users of hte character to learn how to use him in new ways, but honestly I think it is ness's core attributes that are the problem.

He can feign being mobile, with DJC, but its highly commital and always a little bit of a gamble. Against space control characters, its hard to get into the position to commit or you just have a way worse gamble ahead of you. I think one answer that would help Ness is to make magnet in neutral a superior option, and to give him better tools to navigate a labrynth of space control.

My answer to these problems involves changing some of the attributes to Ness's dash. It's distance is great, but it needs to be faster. I don't know what variables you have to play with, and maybe someone else in Brawlbox can mess around with this stuff (for science!), but I imagine if he was faster on the ground, his dash dance game would help him deal a lot better with a marth (or a sheik) and approach a retreating Zelda or get through a labrynth created by Link a lot better.

Also, I imagine by increasing his dash speed, Ness would carry more momentum out of a dash->jump. This means all of his aerial approaches would have a natural increase in their range, and his opportunity to bait out a response, commit harder/safer would be improved. It ALSO means magnet in the air would carry more momentum, meaning you wouldn't be a slow blue hurtbox floating into your opponent, hoping he's dumb enough not to hit you out of it.

So yeah: I think the dash is essential to improve.

The second problem he has is against projectile characters like Link or Zelda. I think he needs better ways of clanking with projectiles and still being a threat to the opponent. The Idea I had (originally Ggmasters) was adding hitboxes on nair so it doesn't cover ness better behind him than in front of him. The other solution I've been playing with is adding a LOT of IASA frames after nair. That way, you could nair a projectile as you short hop approach, and then use another aerial when you are on top of the opponent. That would also make sourspotted nair a much more reliable combo option. So yeah, conservatively, I htink ness needs AT LEAST the 3 following changes to help him deal better with his problems.

1. Faster dash (same length)
2. fixed nair hitbox
3. nair IASA frames so that he can nair through projectiles and continue to apply pressure in a jump.

All of it is pretty fair when you consider Ness has no range or ground game.

Judging by how much you went in detail, it looks like I knew Ness' weaknesses less than I thought.

Yeah these are WAY better changes than my PK Fire buff. Good show.

Do you go to any tournaments? I'm only just starting to watch them in an attempt to better myself with my mains in my signature. I'd like to see your Ness in the future to better visualize what you're talking about.

 

[choknater]

from the looks of this thread it seems like u guys rely more on character balance fixes/patches than your own skill. sounds like FOTM league of legends metagame.

haha only slightly kidding!

nice vid on pk fire escape!

 

[The_NZA]

from the looks of this thread it seems like u guys rely more on character balance fixes/patches than your own skill. sounds like FOTM league of legends metagame.

haha only slightly kidding!

nice vid on pk fire escape!

I'm sick and tired of people arguing or implying this foul bull****. The only reason there is so much theorycrafting/patch deliberations going on here and in the Ness chat is because Ness is the only character (besides spacies) who haven't seen a substantive buff or change since the transition from 2.1->2.5. In fact, the only change our character has received in over a year is a nerf to our magnet. More than five of us came to Apex, and I placed 97th (losing to Salem and Eli) so you can be sure that we are ironing out our play and investing in playing publicly.

The talk about tweaks is simply natural as Ness players know they are working with a not completely finished character, and they want him to be more complete.

 

[choknater]

ic ic haha ok i understand. what makes u think he's not complete though? he feels fine to me, feels like one of the best characters in P:M because of his movement

i watched some of ur vids, i think you have great knowledge of your options but you just gotta pick your spots when approaching and not go ham off the ledge. maybe u weren't trying that hard in the ones i watched tho

 

[The_NZA]

ic ic haha ok i understand. what makes u think he's not complete though? he feels fine to me, feels like one of the best characters in P:M because of his movement

i watched some of ur vids, i think you have great knowledge of your options but you just gotta pick your spots when approaching and not go ham off the ledge. maybe u weren't trying that hard in the ones i watched tho

The most recent footage I have are my Apex videos in the Ness fuzzy pickles Videos thread. They are the last post (all the ones in the first post of that topic are outdated).

 

[choknater]

i'm watching the MM with sethlon now

WOW using the psi magnet to hover over getup attacks and punish... SMART, i'm stealing that haha

good game, u definitely have all the movement down, he just had momentum and out-footsied u hard on the last game. are u the best ness? haha

 

[Une]

Remove the lag from aerial PK fire like in SD Remix and also make it fire straight in the air sound like a plan or what

 

[The_NZA]

i'm watching the MM with sethlon now

WOW using the psi magnet to hover over getup attacks and punish... SMART, i'm stealing that haha

good game, u definitely have all the movement down, he just had momentum and out-footsied u hard on the last game. are u the best ness? haha

I appreciate the complements, man! I don't really have the results to claim anything of that sort (GGmaster and Awestin have better results than me). But i'm glad you liked that tech--I haven't seen many people do things like that.

 

[choknater]

i was playing today with my friend and i tried to implement it. kinda hard to get the timing down but it's really good for option coverage

 

[The_NZA]

Here's a tip. You go into magnet, and then hit up on the analog stick, down on the cstick, and then down on the analog stick. All in quick succession.

 

[Bryonato]

Magnet has a TON of crazy **** with it. tech chases are just the beginning

 

[choknater]

honestly i think people are using it too much when they can use cleaner follow-ups

but maybe that's just because i'm a uair monster lol

 

[The_NZA]

honestly i think people are using it too much when they can use cleaner follow-ups

but maybe that's just because i'm a uair monster lol

Are you saying people are using pk fire too much or magnet? Because, if you are saying pkfire, I disagree with you. The big difference between the most successful ness (Awestin) and everyone else is how much pkfire they use. As far as I'm concerned, right now, with the current build of Ness me, Gmaster, Calabrel, and Eli aren't using pkfire enough.

 

[Bryonato]

that's what i like about ness' kit. allows for a lot of creativity

 

[choknater]

Are you saying people are using pk fire too much or magnet? Because, if you are saying pkfire, I disagree with you. The big difference between the most successful ness (Awestin) and everyone else is how much pkfire they use. As far as I'm concerned, right now, with the current build of Ness me, Gmaster, Calabrel, and Eli aren't using pkfire enough.

no, i meant magnet haha. pk fire is amazing

for magnet, the trajectory is too weird and seems easy to DI out of most follow-ups. if someone was REALLY well-conditioned though, i could see it being good for combos. i guess it's a matter of time before we see more tech, but the current usage i see for it seems a little excessive and arbitrary. shoutouts to calabrel though who seems to have focused his whole game on psi magnet movement LOL

 

[Bryonato]

that's just like, your opinion, man

magnet's trajectory is really great for comboing at lower % and while it's char specific magnet dashing works wonders at higher percents as well. IMO it's a good mixup and mobility option that allows ness to do some great things like extending his djc, stalling for tech chases, comboing into kills, assisting his recovery....

honestly it's kind of a style choice.... thing.

You can do well without ever using magnet (see: Awestin), but if you do choose to incorporate it into your game it can allow for some really great things. It's important, but not essential.

 

[choknater]

hm i guess i was talking more about connecting with it as an attack. i believe in its utility for movement, which is really good

i will try to experiment with it more tho if it 's that good

 

[Ganreizu]

I honestly think Pk flash is broken as ****, but nobody knows how to use it except me so Imma be quiet now.

Yeah seriously. No one ever uses PK flash and even in the most recent smash break where there was a good ness player, he only used flash in the last kill and people still consider it disrespectful because they think it's hard to land. You can chase recoveries with it so easily or just threaten people with it's presence or used as a bait to punish trying to absorb it. It doesn't have enough lag to result in a punish in a large majority of cases, and it's a lot better overall than pk thunder1.

 

[The_NZA]

It's a great option on a lot of characters but can also be dealt with by anyone who can mixup their recovery. You are going to have ot name me a character who couldn't deal with it before I could have a genuine conversation on whether its broken or not.

It may be a safe option as an edgeguard, but you forego other options when you choose to flash. That opportunity cost is why its not broken.

 

[Ganreizu]

It's a great option on a lot of characters but can also be dealt with by anyone who can mixup their recovery. You are going to have ot name me a character who couldn't deal with it before I could have a genuine conversation on whether its broken or not.

It may be a safe option as an edgeguard, but you forego other options when you choose to flash. That opportunity cost is why its not broken.

Well broken is clearly an exaggeration, but i think it's on the same level of ease of use as pk fire is. There are times i can force an option with flash and follow up on that. I've started to just throw it out there immediately just to stall their recovery because i know i can still go out and gimp them when they've exhausted jumps/stalls. Marth/roy/ike/ganon/falcon/mario seem the most susceptible to it imo, and are usually still available for gimp after a failure flash.

By the way, i want to ask you all...How do you space your aerial pk fires? Is there any use to b-reversing it? Have people figured out the pk fire cancel? (i got it the other day but was too amazed to do anything with it lol)

 

[PCmustardRice]

I find that Mewtwo does fairly well countering PK Fire. Use your side B/down B to fling back the PK Fire and then follow up.

 

[LovinMitts]

CPU's have powershielded the firewall and when they did, it would harm me instead.