Ness' PK Fire

[SpaceJello]

As stated before I think ness only needs one buff to put him in a good position and that's movement increase. Characters that play very defensively against ness will always have the advantage. With a movement increase, he could at least be able to have a decent neutral game against characters with long range or heavy projectiles ( rob,link,mewtwo) I don't think Zelda's projectiles are that big of a deal. You can literally sit in magnet and then just wave dash out when she approaches, even after absorbing a fireball.

 

[Fortress]

What specifically does the phrase 'movement increase' even entail?

 

[SpaceJello]

Movement speed I should say. How fast he moves when he dashes

 

[The_NZA]

The transfer of momentum from a run to a jump also comes to mind. Also, I wouldn't mind pkfire being made weaker if it meant better movement advances.

 

[SpaceJello]

The transfer of momentum from a run to a jump also comes to mind. Also, I wouldn't mind pkfire being made weaker if it meant better movement advances.

sounds like lucas lol

 

[The_NZA]

sounds like lucas lol

They both need to be nimble characters due to their lack of range. But that doesn't make Ness a fast faller with a short quick double jump. He'll still have slow jumps, a vastly different momentum altering magnet, and a completely differnet moveset.

But yeah, they are the same "archetype" of nimble and short ranged.

 

[SpaceJello]

i was specifically replying to him having a weaker pk fire with faster movement

 

[The_NZA]

That's just lucas being a well designed character. Universally, a projectile shouldn't be any characters best option in neutral always. The sad thing is, it almost always is the best thing ness can do, in neutral, to punish techs, to start his combos, etc. Its safe, relatively risk free, hard to play against, and easy to use.

 

[Fortress]

That's just lucas being a well designed character. Universally, a projectile shouldn't be any characters best option in neutral always. The sad thing is, it almost always is the best thing ness can do, in neutral, to punish techs, to start his combos, etc. Its safe, relatively risk free, hard to play against, and easy to use.

That's comparable to 2.6 Ivysaur, if I'm recalling correctly.

 

[The_NZA]

That's comparable to 2.6 Ivysaur, if I'm recalling correctly.

It's not a terrible comparison.

 

[choknater]

i think pk fire is fine. though strong, it's very avoidable and doesn't lead to much when the opponent has DI. only two angles and a very small hitbox. reminiscent of sheik's needles but not as fast

 

[The_NZA]

i think pk fire is fine. though strong, it's very avoidable and doesn't lead to much when the opponent has DI. only two angles and a very small hitbox. reminiscent of sheik's needles but not as fast

Dude, it ALWAYS leads out to things no matter how strong someone DIs. It forces people to jump or roll back, and on top of that it sticks them for at least a moment which gives you the ability to position yourself to punish them. It wouldn't be so terrible if for the fact that its Ness's least risky safest best way to approach always, AND its usually a great option for covering tech rolls and starting greusome combos. On top of htat, almost every Ness punishes off of Pkfire in the same way, meaning there isn't a great breadth of difference of skill in the way a Ness player is supposed to combo off of it (its DJC dairs, or grabs, or a bat).

It's bad for the game and because it exists, they are afraid to change Ness in more substantive ways. Ask a backroom member what they think about speeding up Ness's dash or transferring more momentum from his run to his jump (something I've done several times) and I get the same answer--"wouldn't that make evasive pk fire only stronger?". This move needs to be nerfed before Ness can be designed to fully reward people who are investing time in playing the character in a more interesting way.

 

[SpaceJello]

nza is right,pk fire is gruesome. camping with pk fires is one of ness' best strat.it is easily avoidable but getting caught in one and thats pretty much lot of damage or even a stock. pk fire chains( following opponents di while in pkfire with another aerial pk fire) are actually very easy and basically a free stock. even pk fire ---> bair-->grab is pretty much a guaranteed 50%. but while pk fire is pretty good, once you get pass that ness is very easy to **** because of how slow he is. matchups that arent too good for ness are usually in a better favor for lucas, and vice versa. thats why we should all switch to lucas and become professional players

 

[KhanYe]

I think The_NZA hit it on the head by saying that even if someone perfectly DIs out of PK Fire, if you're good, you're essentially guaranteed a followup at ANY percentage. That's disgusting. Not saying it makes Ness too good or anything obviously, he's still average imo, but as it stands his design rewards someone for abusing PK Fire.

 

[The_NZA]

nza is right,pk fire is gruesome. camping with pk fires is one of ness' best strat.it is easily avoidable but getting caught in one and thats pretty much lot of damage or even a stock. pk fire chains( following opponents di while in pkfire with another aerial pk fire) are actually very easy and basically a free stock. even pk fire ---> bair-->grab is pretty much a guaranteed 50%. but while pk fire is pretty good, once you get pass that ness is very easy to **** because of how slow he is. matchups that arent too good for ness are usually in a better favor for lucas, and vice versa. thats why we should all switch to lucas and become professional players

I don't think there is any matchup I can think of that is bad for Lucas and good for Ness. What matchups do you think favor ness but do not favor Lucas?

 

[SpaceJello]

id say Zelda,Ike, and dk are definitely more in ness' favor than lucas for a multitude of reasons. mainly becasue these characters can gimp/ u-throw lucas very very easily while not being able to do this to ness. pk fire is also a big problem for these characters. matchups i feel are heavily against ness, like rob, samus, link are all way easier/doable with lucas because of his fast movement speed.

 

[choknater]

I personally think ness has stronger defensive options against fast characters like fox, falco, and falcon. Lucas can somewhat match their speed but I think Ness can wall them out a little better and, in my opinion, punish much harder. Pretty important matchups too!

 

[thesage]

Don't faster characters have an easier time avoiding pk fire? Fair isn't a perfect wall. Spacies and Falcon all have really good tools that force Ness to approach. Sure he has some amazing combos on them, but they have some really good combos on him too. I don't see how any of those could be good matchups for Ness.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Yeah we have good combos on spacies, but so does literally everyone else. We die to spacies like anyone else but I think we do have the tools to get in on them, ness's pk fire is legit god as discussed and catching a spacie with one can pretty much mean an easy kill. Even though I don't have much practice vs spacies cuz MA is jank af and we play random **** and swords, the matchups againsts spacies and fast chars are probably pretty even because fair, pk fire, and godly combos

 

[The_NZA]

Yeah we have good combos on spacies, but so does literally everyone else. We die to spacies like anyone else but I think we do have the tools to get in on them, ness's pk fire is legit god as discussed and catching a spacie with one can pretty much mean an easy kill. Even though I don't have much practice vs spacies cuz MA is jank af and we play random **** and swords, the matchups againsts spacies and fast chars are probably pretty even because fair, pk fire, and godly combos

Your from MA? What's your tag?

 

[Likethefish]

By no means am I saying that Ness' PK Fire is broke or anything like that, but I have to ask you Ness players, what are the best ways to avoid and/or punish it. When I get hit by pk fire I can't DI to get high enough to not get grabbed or can I easily DI out of the flame. Am I doing something wrong? Pk Fire is so ridiculous in tram fights. I'd appreciate some help and insight in the moves properties etc from you Ness players.


If this is in the wrong section please move mods.

As a PM Ness main, I abuse the move. It's simply HOW you play Ness in PM.... I think one of its best qualities is that it goes through shields.... oh yeah, don't try to shield it btw . Ness had a significant bit of lag after the attack in melee, but much of that has been removed in PM. My best recommendation is to either find a way to reflect it or roll to dodge it. Spacing is also key when avoiding it.. duh. Also: a grounded PK fire is much easier to punish than an aerial PK fire. Thats all I got.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Your from MA? What's your tag?

Lol, I'm God on skype and Flash ingame, whaddup

 

[Mr. Keebs]

PK Fire is busted in Project M

 

[Mr. Keebs]

If its not busted its OP

 

[The_NZA]

If its not busted its OP

It's neither busted nor is it op. Its the only thing that ultimately makes Ness viable... it could be heavily nerfed or removed if he was given more substantive ways to beat shield. Such as a faster dash.

 

[Boiko]

I've played and won games not using PKF at all. I think Ness has plenty of options in neutral, that one is just the best by a considerable margin. PKF is relatively easy to avoid, you just roll as soon as it hits shield and Ness is too slow to come in and punish. If you do get hit, smash DI up and it makes the grab not possible. NZA, you played Frozen, that dude is basically PKF proof. Btw, I have videos of my 3-0 win over G$ coming up in a day or two for those who want to see the space animal match up.