Ness Matchup Discussion - Luigi

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Yea I failed to mention his fast neutral air but that goes along with how I can usually only get down throw to 2 aerials. Luigi being floaty doesn't help at all.

 

[Earthbound360]

I don't know if Ness is better at killing because of how easy it is for Luigi to get a grab. Yes, Ness has MORE KO moves, but Luigi's dthrow to cyclone can KO at really lower percents, sometimes even lower than Ness' bthrow. Plus, Luigi has fireballs, jabs, and nair to set his dthrow up, and overall superior frame data.

 

[Lochy]

I don't know if Ness is better at killing because of how easy it is for Luigi to get a grab. Yes, Ness has MORE KO moves, but Luigi's dthrow to cyclone can KO at really lower percents, sometimes even lower than Ness' bthrow. Plus, Luigi has fireballs, jabs, and nair to set his dthrow up, and overall superior frame data.

Agreed.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I don't know if Ness is better at killing because of how easy it is for Luigi to get a grab. Yes, Ness has MORE KO moves, but Luigi's dthrow to cyclone can KO at really lower percents, sometimes even lower than Ness' bthrow. Plus, Luigi has fireballs, jabs, and nair to set his dthrow up, and overall superior frame data.[/quo

I don't know if Ness is better at killing because of how easy it is for Luigi to get a grab. Yes, Ness has MORE KO moves, but Luigi's dthrow to cyclone can KO at really lower percents, sometimes even lower than Ness' bthrow. Plus, Luigi has fireballs, jabs, and nair to set his dthrow up, and overall superior frame data.

Luigi can kill earlier with his down throw cyclone, but from my Luigi main brother, I heard that the cyclone kill at lower percents is pretty unreliable because of the fact that his target will often fall out of the cyclone before they reach the point where it will kill. But this could just be the case with my brother and I. A couple of months ago he would kill me with it all the time and I got rekt because of it. But when I learned to DI it properly he has rarely used it. I asked why and he said it is too unreliable. I do however occasionally see him get the cyclone kill on FOR GLORY noobs.

 

[Earthbound360]

If the Luigi player mashes the cyclone correctly, it shouldn't really drop the opponent out. I know how to DI it too, but it doesn't make it really less threatening.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

If the Luigi player mashes the cyclone correctly, it shouldn't really drop the opponent out. I know how to DI it too, but it doesn't make it really less threatening.

At what %?

 

[Earthbound360]

At what %?

KO percents. Luigi has a lot of control over his nado.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

KO percents. Luigi has a lot of control over his nado.

I meant general percent. 70,80,90,100+
But I shouldn't have expected a specific answer since this is a ness thread full of ness mains not luigis.
Anyways I asked my brother why he doesn't go for the tornado kill anymore today since last time I asked was a few months ago. And this time he said he didn't know why he doesn't use it anymore and he should start using it to take advantage of every kill move Luigi has. But then he used it in a match against me while I was at 156 and he went to high so I fell out of his tornado. I guess he is rusty because it's been a while. It will probably be a while before I know the details on luigi's tornado kill because of it.

 

[Luco]

I've heard Cyclone can kill at like 110% but I'm also pretty sure if your DI is exceptional enough you can live quite substantially later.

And on the off-chance you do fall out, free Uair. <3

But yeah, Luigi's KO options are really really good.

 

[Lochy]

I meant general percent. 70,80,90,100+
But I shouldn't have expected a specific answer since this is a ness thread full of ness mains not luigis.
Anyways I asked my brother why he doesn't go for the tornado kill anymore today since last time I asked was a few months ago. And this time he said he didn't know why he doesn't use it anymore and he should start using it to take advantage of every kill move Luigi has. But then he used it in a match against me while I was at 156 and he went to high so I fell out of his tornado. I guess he is rusty because it's been a while. It will probably be a while before I know the details on luigi's tornado kill because of it.

I actually mained luigi for about a month in January and I think I may re-add him on my list of mains. But that's beside the point. If the tornado is done too fast or too slow people will be able to DI out of it while a properly done tornado luigi will slightly ascend and the opponent will have a tough time DI'ing out.

 

[Earthbound360]

I've seen nado kill at 80% with rage.

 

[Noa.]

It is not always possible to DI out of dthrow tornado for Ness because of how floaty Ness is. Usually it starts killing Ness at around 100%. I don't see it kill Ness earlier than that.

I would say that Ness and Luigi have equal KO power and ease of landing KO moves. But Luigi will kill Ness earlier generally speaking. We kill with uair and bthrow which usually kill at like 120 or 130, and Luigi kills with tornado which kills at sub 100. Luigi's aerials and usmash also kill at like 120 or 130 so we don't do poorly on that front. I just think that Luigi unlocks his reliable kill moves earlier than we do.

 

[Meccs]

Both characters can gimp eachother rather well. A good Luigi can jump off and tornado you (hitstun will drop you too low to recover) while your using PKT, so I would recomended recovering out but higher rather than close but lower to the stage. And PKT completely stops the predictable Green Missile, but if the Luigi saved their second jump they will probably still be able to recover. I think I may start trying Fair offstage rather than PKT at this point because I feel like thats the way to go if you want to make sure they cant recover. Fireballs can be annoying, but depending on your spacing, I find a lot of times You can powershield +OoS Nair to prevent a grab after fireball. Ness' neutral game is ass and I think this is one of the few matchups where the opponent has an easier time KOing than Ness, but if you can get Luigi offstage you can rack up serious damage and easy gimps (Back-Hit of Dsmash works well against bothe the Green Missle and Fire Jump Punch once they aim for the ledge), overall, I would probably put this at -.5. I think it is not such a terrible matchup if the Luigi does not attempt to gimp, but if theyre agressive offstage it can easily mean early stocks and the match will go from non-tgreatening to very frustrating.

Also, Ness gets ****ed over HARD by the tornado. Ness has the perfect gravity that you cant DI down out of it like fastfallers but you'll also die off the top earlier than most other characters like heavies who can't escape it.

 

[Noa.]

So I want a gauge on how you guys feel about stages in this matchup?

Which stages should we ban? And which should we counterpick?

Try to name at least three for each.

Ban

Halberd: Luigi kills off the top primarily with usmash and his tornado. This stage has a ceiling that is just way too low for us.

Smashville: Edgeguarding Luigi is a pretty big advantage for us in this matchup. You wouldn't want the platform helping him out of a sticky situation. We aren't as threatened by him offstage so we are not in need of the platform like he is. May not be necessarily worth a ban, but something to keep in mind.

Town and City: Worth mentioning cause this stage also has a low ceiling, though not as low as Halberd.

Pick:

Final Destination: Personally I like having a lot of space against Luigi. It makes it easier to deal with his fireballs, and we can just retreat if we feel threatened by his CQC.

Duck Hunt: Has a pretty high ceiling so it's a pretty useful stage for us against Luigi. Is also a large stage just like Duck Hunt.

Dreamland: All right i haven't tried this out yet but I feel like it wouldn't be bad. The ceiling on it is not as high as battlefield's but the ceiling is not as low as people would have you believe. The stage is pretty big, and I don't think that Luigi's usmash can hit us on the platform. Not sure though.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Something to watch out for when gimping Luigi is his super/fire jump punch. Fire jump punch really hurts but what is probably worse then that is getting hit by the sour spot because it will send you Down. I'm not sure if it is a meteor or a spike at all but I know it is annoying.

 

[Earthbound360]

So I want a gauge on how you guys feel about stages in this matchup?

Which stages should we ban? And which should we counterpick?

Try to name at least three for each.

Ban

Halberd: Luigi kills off the top primarily with usmash and his tornado. This stage has a ceiling that is just way too low for us.

Smashville: Edgeguarding Luigi is a pretty big advantage for us in this matchup. You wouldn't want the platform helping him out of a sticky situation. We aren't as threatened by him offstage so we are not in need of the platform like he is. May not be necessarily worth a ban, but something to keep in mind.

Town and City: Worth mentioning cause this stage also has a low ceiling, though not as low as Halberd.

Pick:

Final Destination: Personally I like having a lot of space against Luigi. It makes it easier to deal with his fireballs, and we can just retreat if we feel threatened by his CQC.

Duck Hunt: Has a pretty high ceiling so it's a pretty useful stage for us against Luigi. Is also a large stage just like Duck Hunt.

Dreamland: All right i haven't tried this out yet but I feel like it wouldn't be bad. The ceiling on it is not as high as battlefield's but the ceiling is not as low as people would have you believe. The stage is pretty big, and I don't think that Luigi's usmash can hit us on the platform. Not sure though.

Ban: Dreamland, Halberd, Battlefield
Pick: FD, Duck Hunt, Smashville

Luigi has too many tricks with Battlefield style platforms. For example, he can dthrow you onto the platform, and if you don't tech, he can lock you into a forced getup, guaranteed fire jump punch. NOT fun to get hit by. The small are makes it easier for him to land grabs too, and his ability to shark with uair is so much better than ours.

Dreamland is Battlefield with a lower ceiling. Even worse.

Halberd has a ridiculously low ceiling, and a long platform that keeps Luigi under you all day.

When I play Luigi, I want space. That helps me negate his fireballs with either magnet or bat, and back off if I feel like he's getting too close for the grab. It also lets me abuse my large shield pushback more. FD has a lot of space, and so does Duck Hunt, but Duck Hunt has a delightfully high ceiling, which is how Luigi kills. Smashville is just a basic go to stage. I don't think it helps or hurts Luigi too much in any way.

 

[yoshi8984]

Battlefield is banworthy since Luigi gets too much with his juggling game with the platforms. I also agree with banning Halberd for the low ceiling and Luigi can stay under the platform quite well. Dreamland 64 is IMO a worse pick than BF cause the horizontal blastzones are far, which is Ness' main way of KOing, but the ceiling is low, which isn't what we want. I'm not quite sure if the Dreamland 64 platforms are at the right height for Luigi to set up his Fireball lock, however.

Smashville is fine, and if you see Luigi trying to go for the platform after using his Double Jump, you can deny it with tailwhipping like I did here (2:31:59). If you're on the moving platform you can Magnet more safely and possibly get a free heal as well lol.
^That being said, PLEASE PLEASE do yourself a favor and learn to tailwhip in this MU. It can screw up Luigi's recovery; you can eat his double jump and stop the Green Missile/misfires (Tailwhipping saved me a from a few of those).

I like FD and Duck Hunt for the space they provide as well. Delfino I usually enjoy, Lylat is bleh (but I can't imagine Luigi liking this either), and T&C I'm not quite comfortable with yet lol.