Ness Matchup Discussion - Luigi

[Noa.]

Luigi

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Art Credit goes to mewllownoiz

-1: Small Disadvantage

Frame Data ( Hitbox comes out on frame: )
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Move|Ness|Luigi
Jab|3|2
Dash Attack|8|4
Ftilt|7|5
Utilt|7|5
Dtilt|3|5
Fsmash|21|12
Usmash|6|9
Dsmash|10|6
Nair|5|3
Fair|8|7
Bair|10|6
Uair|8|5
Dair|20|10
Grab|6|6
Dash Grab|8|8
Pivot Grab|10|9

General Stats
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Attribute|Ness|Luigi
Weight|30th (94)|21st (97)
Dash Speed|40th (1.46)|30th (1.5)
Walk Speed|47th (.8635)|30th (1.08)
Air Speed|31st (.9588)|47th (.73418)
Fall Speed|42nd (1.31)|46th (1.25)

Bthrow Kill Percent​

Closest|Middle|Farthest|Mean
94|130|156|123.666

Videos

Nakat vs Boss

FOW vs Mr.ConCon ​

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Luigi is so good at punishing Ness for any whiffed moves, and the punishments are severe. We're talking about 25-35% punishes.
While Ness has many moves he can use to KO Luigi with, he can struggle to actually land them, allowing Luigi to survive past KO-percentages.
As with many of Ness' more difficult opponents, it is the grueling and arduous neutral game that raises the pressure and stakes.

 

[yoshi8984]

o.o I never knew Luigi was faster than Ness. Damn lol. Also I could've sworn Luigi's Nair was Frame 2?

Anyway, last tourney I attended I got bodied by a Luigi in friendlies then I somehow barely won lol. I was playing differently against him compared to my friendly. (I still kinda lack the experience here so you may want to take this with a grain of salt)

I had to make sure I didn't commit to anything risky, like at all. His D-Throw combos are REALLY REALLY good and the next thing you know you'll go from 0% -> 60%. You can't sit in your shield waiting for a mistake either due to those throws, and hell he can do a D-Throw > Cyclone to net the KO (at around 130%?). Not sure if this is placebo, but apparently Cyclone is a bit easier to fall out of for the victim since 1.0.8 so if we're lucky we can escape. Should also note D-Throw has less knockback at the ledge, so we might get combo'd easier there or he can spike us with Dair.

I had to use a bunch of rising Nairs and did a TON of Bairs since those are pretty safe on shield (unless powershielded). I almost never used PK Fire here because it's rather low reward and high risk. Fair is probably not worth using too much here because trading with Luigi isn't a good idea.

You might also want to see how Luigis recover; the one I faced liked to go directly under the ledge and then Double Jump + Up-B simultaneously. You could tailwhip him for a gimp, especially given how linear Luigi's recovery is or hell even PK Flash, but know when you should commit to it.

My main KOing method was B-Throw through pivot grabs each game, but god, it was stressful getting the KO on him.

In terms of stages, I would ban Battlefield for sure since platforms help Luigi's aerials moreso than ours, plus he has a nasty D-Throw > Fireball Lock with the platforms there. Smashville can go either way, but I'd much rather take him there than BF lol. I'm not sure if he'd take us to Lylat cause I can see the tilting also screwing up his recovery and Fireballs and D-Throw setups. I think we benefit from Delfino more than he does, but I think Halberd could also be banworthy for its low ceiling where Luigi can KO us REALLY early and we don't get much from it.

I have a match with my friend here (credit @VentusNeos for recording this one for me), but I'll analyze it later. But one thing I found interesting was punishing a tech from PKT2 into a Bair after (go to 4:00).
^I have another match against a Fox where I punish a tech with a Bair, I'll get that uploaded later as well. =P
You can see first stock I shouldn't have been Fairing lol

 

[ahannoush4]

My worst matchup when using Ness! I will take all of this information into account for my next fight with Luigi... Thanks!

 

[Uffe]

I hate Luigi in Smash. I love him as a character, but he's so lame to deal with. I honestly wouldn't consider him even. Maybe I'm still learning the match up with Ness, but for now, he's strong and annoying.

 

[Lochy]

Here's a video where Nakat gets 2 stocked by poke
Its the first match btw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wEW-fENB8yE

 

[Brendannn]

I really struggle vs Luigi as Ness. I feel like the best way to approach this matchup is to only throw out safe moves(jab, fair, nair, etc.) and just work on using projectiles and punishing as our way to damage and beat Luigi.

 

[yoshi8984]

Hm, some more noteworthy things;

- I feel like shield in this MU should only be used when Luigi's in the air, not the ground b/c they tend to (dash) grab a LOT.

- When throwing out Bairs starting from a full hop, don't always do a 2nd one as you fall; Luigi can shoot a fireball as you Bair the 2nd time and can set you up for a grab. If he likes to throw out a Fireball as you're falling, don't Bair; just Magnet.

- Luigi without a Double Jump is juggle bait for PK Thunder. I've gotten away with hitting many PKTs on him, he has to either airdodge it (not the most practical thing since tailwhipping is a thing and then just hit with the head right after), Nair the head or get hit.

 

[Earthbound360]

Okay, as I've mentioned as of late, I'm starting to think Luigi is a bit less even than I originally thought.

Let's begin with the basics. Both Ness and Luigi have a similar game plan. They both want to grab you, combo the hell out of you, and then finish you with a grab. Luigi's dthrow to cyclone is terrifying, especially with rage. Be absolutely sure you know how to DI that thing. Rapid tap down during the smaller hits, then DI the last strong hit sideways. If you manage to fall out of the bottom, you can DJ uair to punish Luigi, and maybe even KO him.

Luigi tends to struggle more against characters who can keep him out. You can view him as this games grappler of sorts. Sadly, Ness lacks a good projectile and midrange game, so Luigi will get in relatively easy. At this point, it becomes a battle of who will get the grab first. But geez, Luigi's frames are so good, and he has such good ways of setting up grabs (mostly through fireball, nair, and jab). Ness' grab setup moves just aren't as good in terms of frames, so I feel like the real advantage here might go to Luigi.

Oh also, with the fireball, Ness has bit of an easier time dealing with it than most cahracters. You HAVE to know how to magnet cancel in this matchup. Mix up your cancel options too, don't just roll or jump all the time. You can also SH air dodge, usmash, and spot dodge. Outside of this, Ness can also nair the fireballs, but make sure you're hitting Luigi at the same time (which can happen since Luigi players tend to lead their approach with it). If you MUSt block it, SH nair out of shield immediately after blocking it. You typically want to avoid just letting it hit your shield.

Back on track, since he's so grab based, make sure you're spot dodging and rolling more than shielding. SH nair out of shield is good too when he's pressuring you up close, but don't get predictable with it. As Yoshi8984 said, shield should be used sparingly unless you want to get grabbed. Main mindset in this matchup: DON'T. GET. GRABBED.

When you start grab comboing him, watch out for combo break nairs too. And when he's comboing you low to the ground, do NOT air dodge or spam nair to break. Good Luigis will shield and wait for these kinds of reactions. You either want to DJ+air dodge away, or fast fall land and either go for a grab or just dodge/roll/run away.

But now lets list the things we can do to Luigi. For one, he's floaty, like really floaty. Easy PKT juggle target.
When he's recovering, tailwhipping him under the ledge (where many Luigis end up recovering) is a good idea. If he has to use Green Missile to recover, PKT can collide with it at the head and make it stop right in its tracks. You'll notice NAKAT did this to Boss a few times.

If he's forced to use cyclone to recover (or forced to use it at all), that should be an easy punish for us. Train yourself to punish cyclone on reaction. Bair the hell out of this. This applies on stage too. If Luigi uses cyclone and you block it, follow him and bair/uair him to punish. I would say usmash if Ness had a stronger usmash, but meh. Also, if you're getting cycloned on the ground, you can DI down and tech out of it.
A Luigi without his DJ off stage is also very dead if your edgeguards are on point. This is why most Luigi players save their DJs until they're right under the stage.

Bair is relatively safe in this matchup on shield. It pushes Luigi so far that he can't effectively punish it if you do it close to the ground. Mix this up with empty hops into grabs and you'll have a good amount of pressure on his shield.

Oh, and if he tries to gimp you with cyclone, DI up as much as you can. I don't tend to get hit by this much though.

Overall, I think Luigi's frames and grab setups give him a slight edge in this matchup. However, with the magnet buffs and the cyclone nerfs, it might be better than before.
-1 is what I'm gonna go with here.

 

[yoshi8984]

You HAVE to know how to magnet cancel in this matchup. Mix up your cancel options too, don't just roll or jump all the time. You can also SH air dodge, usmash, and spot dodge.

How do you perform U-Smash out of Magnet? Do you just flick up on the C-Stick, or input it like you would as if you were shielding (say with Tap Jump On, just hit Up + A; with Tap Jump Off, hit Jump + Up + A)?

 

[Earthbound360]

How do you perform U-Smash out of Magnet? Do you just flick up on the C-Stick, or input it like you would as if you were shielding (say with Tap Jump On, just hit Up + A; with Tap Jump Off, hit Jump + Up + A)?

Yeah, you've got to input a jump first, upon absorbing the projectile.

 

[Noa.]

What I never would've thought to do an usmash out of magnet cancel.

Makes sense though. And yeah that could be very useful.

 

[Earthbound360]

What I never would've thought to do an usmash out of magnet cancel.

Makes sense though. And yeah that could be very useful.

It's good against people who think that you ALWAYS have to defend out of a magnet. Or you can SH nair.

 

[Kidodeath]

I think that this MU is about spacing and patience , Luigi is not a really good character off stage and can be gimped with PKT Tail , or edgeguarded with nair . On the ground , try to space with fair or bair depending on the situation , and don't search for a grab too much , grab when you're sure about it or Luigi will get an easy grab if you whiff . Wait for a grab while spacing , don't go into long combos or he will nair , keep him offstage and kill with a gimp , a nair or a stage spike bair . Oh and now that magnet has been buffed we can try to absorb his fireball more .
Hard matchup maybe , can't say if it's even or slightly in Luigi's favor .

 

[yoshi8984]

@ Earthbound360 Remind me which way is better to DI his D-Throw? Away from him so we don't end up above him?

 

[Greward]

I think this is one of Ness hardest matchups, not even at all.

Luigi is like a powered up version of Ness in this matchup, both have similar mobility but Luigi has stronger combos, damage output, frame data and overall superior neutral game.

Main issues Luigi has against Ness are that his fireballs have some risk because of magnet and that PKT can be annoying for him offstage (mostly the tail). Ness has very strong kill options but so does Luigi.

Nair is a good answer to dash grab as usual. Luigi is very grab based so avoiding it as much as possible is key in the matchup. Spacing aerials, specially bair works good against Luigi's shield since he slides away.

I kinda use PKT a lot in this matchup, even in neutral game. It's harder for Luigi to punish because of his sliding + not too fast and a hit in breaks neutral game.

When grabbed at low %, if you DI away from luigi he will do double chop (mb regrab), DIing to luigi lets him do dthrow spike - regrab or some other stuff like up-air to back air. I don't think there's a real always best way to DI it, so I mostly mix it up or decide where i want to end after the combo.

 

[Earthbound360]

@ Earthbound360 Remind me which way is better to DI his D-Throw? Away from him so we don't end up above him?

Pretty sure it hurts less to get hit with 1 uair as opposed to 2 fairs, but Luigi can hit you no matter which way you DI.
You can try to mix up your DI to confuse the Luigi player, but the DI multipliers on his dthrow are so low that it's pretty easy to hit the victim no matter what.

 

[Luco]

The Luigi boards are probably going to discuss us soon, so when they do, do you want me to invite them here?

 

[Earthbound360]

After we settle on an agreed number.

I say -1.

 

[micahclay]

I don't think it's an unwinnable match-up at all, but it is very difficult for Ness. Luigi gets SO much off of grabs (as he does against every character), and his punishes are incredibly severe. Meanwhile, Ness struggles at close range, so it's a lot harder to rack up damage on Luigi. I'd put it at -1.

 

[Noa.]

Id say that most of us think it's -1. I'll invite them over here.

 

[Luco]

I'm also on the even or -1 train. Would settle for either.

 

[TriTails]

@ Earthbound360 Remind me which way is better to DI his D-Throw? Away from him so we don't end up above him?

The main mindset is:
0 - 45% = DI TOWARDS him.
Above and beyond = DI AWAY from him.

The former is to limit his combos (No double chop + regrab) and the latter is to avoid his kill setups (B-air and Cyclone are harder to land). Although, you generally can take hefty damage even when he is not grabbing. His aerials pack a lot of punch (Yay 11% U-air and 14% B-air) and if you got caught in fast-fall sour N-air, consider yourself ******** in a 2nd D-throw. Yes, it combos. But landing it is fairly unlikely unless he surprised you when he lands.

BTW:

Not sure if this is placebo, but apparently Cyclone is a bit easier to fall out of for the victim since 1.0.8 so if we're lucky we can escape.

However, with the magnet buffs and the cyclone nerfs, it might be better than before.

Luigi Cyclone is unchanged, and neither is the character.

About the actual MU... I need to think more about it.

 

[Luco]

From the Luigi boards, who have started discussing this MU:

From my experiences playing Ness players (fow and nakat for example, but on wifi):

Ness seems like a MU that is in our favor, but barely. Like a 55:45 type of advantage. Some things I've noted that Ness gives us problems with are:

Up B completely wrecks Luigi in the air unless Luigi can Nair through the head of the UP B
Ness can Nair out of some of our combos
Ness bthrow kills ~123 (according to ness boards)
Landing w/ Uair makes it hard to punish if we dont powershield due to shield pushback
His dsmash can clip us at the ledge when we try to Up B
PSI Magnet eats fireballs safely from certain distances

However, with Luigi:
We can dthrow combo him pretty well, despite his nair potentially giving us some issues
Powershielding a pk fire is a free grab
Although risky, you can hit him out of his Up B and gimp him
And some other things i cant come up with off the top of my head.

On another note, I find that Ness and Luigi trade hits a lot in the air, which makes damage pretty close to where Ness can be at down throw cyclone kill % before we become backthrow kill % unless we hang around the edge

So overall, IMO, both ness and luigi can rack up % with ease, have a kill throw around the same %, and both have gimpable recoveries. Ness has the tools to stop some luigi things, but luigi's combo game and damage output is so strong that it slightly beats out Ness's.

So my overall thoughts: 55:45 Luigi favor.

Feel free to talk about it here or there, and don't mind me if I copy-paste a couple posts to help facilitate the discussion across both boards. ^_^

 

[Luco]

Two more relevant posts. Apologies for the double post on my part but edits don't alert people.

As a guy who plays in tournament Ness, Luigi and Mega Man I think I can speak of all matchups.

First of all luigi beats Ness very solidly. Luigi is pretty much a better Ness without PK Thunder. Superior frame data, stronger combos, better approach, even better kill options. Main strength Ness does have is the fact that he can't be walled by fireballs since he can Magnet them, so don't spam fireballs. It's a standard matchup for Luigi really.

I don't have much experience on the Mega MU, so I'll announce something.

School is up for me.

Which means?

Sadly. Writeups are going to be delayed till Saturday because I have a test I need to attend. Welp. Please understand. I'll have the writeups ready soon.

Not that it's THAT long of a wait.

[Luco note: Tritails quoted Greward here]

By standard do you mean even btw? Would've guessed no since that contradicts your first sentence.

BTW, on Luigi vs Ness:

Luigi and Ness is pretty similiar. Both likes to grab, but often times their aerials are... overlooked. Both have great grab games and aerial games.

Now the thing is. Luigi has to approach because of Magnet and PK Fire/Thunder. The former is quite easy to dodge and punish. the latter is... very player-dependent. It clashes with Fireball, but Luigi better off straight punishing Ness whenever he sees him wide open (Though, I doubt Ness will use this mindlessly). Ness' (And Lucas') F-smash is unique, it reflects things. DO NOT THROW A FIREBALL. Not when he is charging it. The reflected Fireballs go faster than you think. And Magnet heals Ness and can be roll/spotdodge/jump/JC U-smash cancelled, so spamming Fireballs is a big no-no.

SH battle, Ness can win if he spaces correctly. I recommend not fighting him head-on.

Once Luigi gets in... It's hell for Ness. But at least he is floaty, so he won't be getting trapped like Ganon or Falcon. When Ness gets a grab... it's kinda pain for Luigi. Ness' U-air is especially painful, so try to DI his D-throw by confusing him instead of picking the same DI over and over again (DI towards him, you get U-air juggles. DI away from him, you get F-air chains. Whatever takes your fancy). Ness' pummel is also absurdly fast, which means harder grab break, and easier B-throw kills. Luigi KO's Ness very well with HooHahNado and B-air off a D-throw, but Ness also KOs Luigi well with B-throw (Which kills at like 94% at the edge without rage. You definitely do not want him to face the back of you at the edge). However, unless you get PK Fire'd, it's actually can be hard for Ness to get a grab from my experience. He dashes slower than Luigi, and you can't grab in the air. However, his dash grab is faster than ours, like 1 frame faster, F7 if I'm not mistaken, and like I said, PK Fire can be fatal if we got caught in it. Ness can double his PK Fire and traps us for even longer. I know not of the solution, sadly.

Edgeguarding, Luigi does a very good job. F-air is good at interrupting Ness' loopy double jump and PKT. However, DO NOT TOUCH PKT'S TAIL! This will put you in hitstun long enough to eat a PKT2 in the face, which hurts... a lot. Just... just don't challenge the PKT2. You'll. Regret. It. Just don't.

On Luigi's recovery, Ness can mess you up with the tail of PKT, and the bolt sends you upwards, potentially putting you in a bad position as you are in questionable height whenever you can auto-cancels your aerials (F-air has 22 frames of landing lag... welp), and the tail can eat your double jump. PK Fire can also mess you up, if Nes is accurate. Take my advice, don't jump unless you are positive the fire is out, because it follows your fall. His D-air spike, but it's rather a lackuster hitbox that comes out at frame 20. B-air is especially deadly here, and it's tricky to eyes.

Ness is one of the characters I haven't been labbing much, but from what I can see from FOW vs Mr. CC, what make a threat is Ness' B-air. Be careful around it, and it can KO...

Not giving a ratio because this is my thread. But if anyone is curious... fairly even, but slight Luigi advantage can be taken... 55:45 Luigi.

Wow. I said I won't in one sentence and did it anyway in another. Great consistency, self .

 

[TriTails]

Is there any possible misinformations in my post? If so, please do alert me.

 

[Earthbound360]

I feel like the Luigi boards have a similar concept of this matchup as us from these posts. I agree on Ness beating Luigi straight on in the air, but Luigi's superior frame data and multiple setups for a grab (nair, fireball, and jab) make it easier for him to land the grab. Ness has a better ability to gimp Luigi IMO, especially if he has to use Green Missile. Remember that PKT coliding with Luigi's head makes him stop. But if Ness subjects himself to the cyclone spike, we're pretty screwed.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi also can gimp Ness with Flare Guarding (Bounce the Fireballs off a wall) and since Ness' PKT2's path is pretty obvious, expect him to come out before you even press Up-b. And if he hits you with F-air, B-air, or D-air sourspot/spike, you shouldn't be coming back. If Luigi is real, Jumpless Cyclone gimp.

Just pester Luigi with a circling PKT, hitting him with the tail everytime. Stopping Green Missile =/= Successful gimp (Unless Luigi's double jump is out). If you want to gimp Green Missile, either spike him or straight up KO him.

 

[Noa.]

I also find fair a decent tool to edgeguarding Luigi since Luigi doesn't have any disjointed hit boxes to fight it.

Luigi does win slightly. It's not a huge amount but definitely noticeable. It's nice that we were able to come to the same conclusion.

 

[TriTails]

Since you guys are using +/-, I think something like -0.5 Luigi would fit in.

I certainly can't see it being higher than that.

 

[Noa.]

In our chart we'll change it to -1.

We have -1 for small disadvantage, -2 for solid disadvantage, and -3 for large disadvantage.

 

[DoctorRotom]

Quick question; how do you guys punish a Luigi who likes to spam rolls and fish for grabs all the time?

 

[Earthbound360]

Quick question; how do you guys punish a Luigi who likes to spam rolls and fish for grabs all the time?

Nairs to beat rolls, and the grabs since it comes out so quickly. Just make sure you're reading where he'll be.

 

[UnderscoreRiot]

Would a defensive and patient play style have an advantage against Luigi over a highly aggressive play style? I lose to almost every Luigi I face if I use Ness and I want to stop relying on my secondaries as much to beat him.

 

[Lochy]

Would a defensive and patient play style have an advantage against Luigi over a highly aggressive play style? I lose to almost every Luigi I face if I use Ness and I want to stop relying on my secondaries as much to beat him.

A more defensive approach would probably be better suited for luigi considering that him getting the grab can lead to so much % building up. Don't let him get the grab and the Luigi boards said that powersheilded PK fire is a free grab so go for safe moves like spacing your fair, nair and bair.

 

[Earthbound360]

Would a defensive and patient play style have an advantage against Luigi over a highly aggressive play style? I lose to almost every Luigi I face if I use Ness and I want to stop relying on my secondaries as much to beat him.

Yes, defensive is the way to go here, but I just want to mention that I DON'T mean sit in your shield. That's the last thing you want to do. Just play in a very opportunistic style, making safe pokes in the neutral, healing off of whatever you can if he decides to try fireball, and only committing if you know you can get the hit.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

My brother mains Luigi and I main ness so we play this match up all the time. I think this match up is very close to even.

 

[Lochy]

My brother mains Luigi and I main ness so we play this match up all the time. I think this match up is very close to even.

Glad to know your standing on the match up but do you think you can elaborate and explain why you think its an even match up?

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

In the neutral luigi's fireballs unless used at close range are free health for ness, pretty much all I can get on him is like 2 air attacks from a down throw, while he does luigi's infamous downthrow combos. I play defensively which is the way to go against Luigi, so there isn't much he can do to get in and grab. We both play a lot of offstage, so when we do get back onstage i can get an early ok if I can back throw since we are close to the side blastzone. I feel like ness and Luigi are meant to be played off stage because of how floaty they are and their good aerials. They are both good at gimping recoveries and stage spikes. However neither are protected from getting gimped. Ness' forward air is a valuable tool in this match up because of its priority. But some how luigi's forward air will sometimes beat out ness, if ness spaces his forward air improperly. Luigi had better combos but ness has better kill moves. A fun thing ness can do is down smash when someone who missed the sweetspot on a ledge. I think this match up is really close but slightly in luigi's favor.

 

[Lochy]

In the neutral luigi's fireballs unless used at close range are free health for ness, pretty much all I can get on him is like 2 air attacks from a down throw, while he does luigi's infamous downthrow combos. I play defensively which is the way to go against Luigi, so there isn't much he can do to get in and grab. We both play a lot of offstage, so when we do get back onstage i can get an early ok if I can back throw since we are close to the side blastzone. I feel like ness and Luigi are meant to be played off stage because of how floaty they are and their good aerials. They are both good at gimping recoveries and stage spikes. However neither are protected from getting gimped. Ness' forward air is a valuable tool in this match up because of its priority. But some how luigi's forward air will sometimes beat out ness, if ness spaces his forward air improperly. Luigi had better combos but ness has better kill moves. A fun thing ness can do is down smash when someone who missed the sweetspot on a ledge. I think this match up is really close but slightly in luigi's favor.

Good elaboration on the Ness v Luigi matchup Another thing I'll add is also that pulling off combos are more difficult because of Luigi's quick and long lasting neutral air.