The Noob Legend
Smash Ace
It's really funny to look back on what people have said.
I guess it goes to show that Sakurai IS the master of all mindgames.
I guess it goes to show that Sakurai IS the master of all mindgames.
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Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...
- Thread starter the grim lizard
- Start date
E-Jolteon
Smash Ace
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Erm, firstly I was pointing out that the JAPANESE site didn't deconfirm Ness from almost the very beginning.
Secondly, "until now", that's the English imperfect tense (technically an aspect, but I don't think we have any linguistics majors on the board), which means the action has ended. If the English site was cannon, it would be a deconfirmation, but myself and others pointed out the disrepency between the Japanese and the English site.
So, no I'm not refusing to admit anything, I've been pointing out the REAL reason why Ness was not deconfirmed, and now that it's very likely that he's in, it seems I'm proven correct. Any other reasoning however, is a failure to understand English, because "until now" does mean that the action has ended, it's just a poor translation.
Read a bit of the backlog of posts, you can see the proof of what my position was quite easily.
blayde_axel
Smash Master
Basically, the lesson here is don't call something fact unless you have proof. Especially if that "proof" is a faulty translation.
Still funny how none of the people who said he's out have showed up in the past two days.
Still funny how none of the people who said he's out have showed up in the past two days.
Rikka
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 209
While I never took part in this thread, and I always thought Ness had a chance to return, I was pretty sure he wouldn't.
I'm very glad I was wrong. And this should be a lesson about automatically confirming something when it isn't confirmed.
I'm very glad I was wrong. And this should be a lesson about automatically confirming something when it isn't confirmed.
The Kirby Kong
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 350
"up until now" means the same as "up to the present" or "as of yet", which doesn't say ANYTHING about the future.
Seriously, go ask a linguistics major or look it up yourself. I'm 100% sure on this.
I'm sorry to say it, but you're wrong.
Meta_Sonic64
Smash Master
Why are we still on this, give it a rest. People have different opinions.
schlepboogie
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 156
**** yea ness is back. suck ma balls haters.
AsbestosBlatant
Smash Journeyman
Dear MetaSonic and other like minded folk:
We're still gloating because, we win, you lose. We probably aren't gracious winners, but we've earned that right.
We're going to make you feel every inch of this victory.
Oh I remember the good times...
"You're in denial."
"Lucas took all of his moves, there's no reason for him to be in the game."
"Only minor tweaks."
"Up until now."
"Sakurai even said it."
"Get over it."
"Onett doesn't mean anything."
"You're all morons."
"Stupid fanboys."
Oh the list goes on... Sure, both sides have done their fair share of mudslinging...
I remember calling you a cod piece, once.
That doesn't matter though.
Because Ness, is in fact, still in the Smash Brothers series.
As a playable character.
Which made us right.
And your facts very nonfactual.
Up until now, you were a pretty obnoxious adversary.
Now, spoken in true Pokey fashion, you are just another meal to us.
Love,
Ness fans.
We're still gloating because, we win, you lose. We probably aren't gracious winners, but we've earned that right.
We're going to make you feel every inch of this victory.
Oh I remember the good times...
"You're in denial."
"Lucas took all of his moves, there's no reason for him to be in the game."
"Only minor tweaks."
"Up until now."
"Sakurai even said it."
"Get over it."
"Onett doesn't mean anything."
"You're all morons."
"Stupid fanboys."
Oh the list goes on... Sure, both sides have done their fair share of mudslinging...
I remember calling you a cod piece, once.
That doesn't matter though.
Because Ness, is in fact, still in the Smash Brothers series.
As a playable character.
Which made us right.
And your facts very nonfactual.
Up until now, you were a pretty obnoxious adversary.
Now, spoken in true Pokey fashion, you are just another meal to us.
Love,
Ness fans.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Ok guys, please don't bash metasonic, it looks like he was wrong about Ness not being in, but at least he either meant that Ness simply wasn't going to appear in Smash or moderated his views subsiquently stating that he simply believed that Ness wasn't going to appear given the evidence at the time, a perfectly logical conclusion.
At least for most of the thread, he confirmed this was his position, you can read his backlog of posts for this.
So, there are plenty of people who are far more worthy of your indignation, even though it's mean to rub things in people's faces, so I won't participate in this victory lap.
This is the IMPERFECT tense (again, technically an aspect, the very fact I know this should show that I know what I'm talking about since it's a precise linguistic difference), it meant that an action happened in the past but has been concluded, other examples would be "I was eating".
Technically the actual formation occured in the "who has appeared" statement, but "up until now" does serve to make the statement imperfect independantly in some tenses and aspects, and in others it simply makes no linguistic sense.
But "until now" is inherently imperfect.
PS. if you want to ask an English teacher or a linguistics major/person with a Linguistics degree and are only referring to English, use "past continuous" since that term refers to the English equivalent. "Imperfect" has a different meaning in English, but since most of the time I've been referring to multiple languages I used the term for it that would've categorized it almost any other language.
In other words, it's the "imperfect" you'd find in a French/Spanish/whatever textbook or Wikipedia, not the one you'd find in an English textbook, in an English textbook it'd be past continuous
At least for most of the thread, he confirmed this was his position, you can read his backlog of posts for this.
So, there are plenty of people who are far more worthy of your indignation, even though it's mean to rub things in people's faces, so I won't participate in this victory lap.
I know many linguistics majors, including my brother, he's confirmed this on several occasions.
This is the IMPERFECT tense (again, technically an aspect, the very fact I know this should show that I know what I'm talking about since it's a precise linguistic difference), it meant that an action happened in the past but has been concluded, other examples would be "I was eating".
Technically the actual formation occured in the "who has appeared" statement, but "up until now" does serve to make the statement imperfect independantly in some tenses and aspects, and in others it simply makes no linguistic sense.
But "until now" is inherently imperfect.
PS. if you want to ask an English teacher or a linguistics major/person with a Linguistics degree and are only referring to English, use "past continuous" since that term refers to the English equivalent. "Imperfect" has a different meaning in English, but since most of the time I've been referring to multiple languages I used the term for it that would've categorized it almost any other language.
In other words, it's the "imperfect" you'd find in a French/Spanish/whatever textbook or Wikipedia, not the one you'd find in an English textbook, in an English textbook it'd be past continuous
Levitas
the moon
wOOt, whoever made that obnoxious thread in the melee Ness boards was wrong! we win.
blayde_axel
Smash Master
"The Grim Lizard" has been banned ages ago, so we can't **** with him. I really wanted to.
This should be stickied in the Ness subforum... and, btw, why don't we have these three subforums up yet?
This should be stickied in the Ness subforum... and, btw, why don't we have these three subforums up yet?
SinisterLizard
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2007
- Messages
- 805
All I have to say is, I'll believe it when I see it...
blayde_axel
Smash Master
Is that a joke? lol.
SinisterLizard
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2007
- Messages
- 805
No it isn't.
And on another note...This thread originally started out as a "support" or whatever you wanna call it thread. The evidence was pretty overwhelming. So anyway...that is all.
And on another note...This thread originally started out as a "support" or whatever you wanna call it thread. The evidence was pretty overwhelming. So anyway...that is all.
Thrillhouse-vh.
Smash Hero
They aren't confirmed just yet, just really likely.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
That makes no sense in terms of syntax, you're saying your belief ended and at the same time saying your belief continues...
No, just no, English is already butchered enough with it's split infinitives and other similar linguistic junk.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
The function of the past continuous in English is to state an action ended, not changed. So yes, it does make no sense, the two sentences contradict each other because one stated an action ended and the other stated that it's still going on, albeit in a changed form.
Now, if you had specified how strong the belief was, then it would be different, but belief without an adjective refers to all belief, and if any belief exists then it's not suited for the English past continuous.
Very precise point of linguistics, but still true.
PS. In case anyone feels like calling my logic into question on the grounds that Ness was basically confirmed, as I've been stating from the beginning of this debate, the reason this whole thing was not a deconfirmation of Ness is that the English site had a poor (albiet, best possible) translation of the Japanese one which did not deconfirm Ness.
So now that Ness is basically confirmed, shouldn't this thread be erased? The title always bugged me... but now it makes me laugh 
Anyone got a mveset for Ness that's not based on Paralysis or Offense up? PK Roclin should deffinatly be his FS, and telepor could very well be his B-> Fox style. What do you think?
Anyone got a mveset for Ness that's not based on Paralysis or Offense up? PK Roclin should deffinatly be his FS, and telepor could very well be his B-> Fox style. What do you think?
Actually, I misspoke when I said that my belief hadn't ended. You see, there are two separate things going on here. I originally had a belief. That belief ENDED. Now I continue with a different, stronger belief. And as for you saying it doesn't refer to a change of action, it actually can. In order for a CHANGE to occur, something must end, in this case the belief. The change happens when the new, stronger belief then comes along. They are two separate statements but they work together just fine.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I dealt with that, there must be a point of no belief for it to have ended.
Belief without an adjective refers to belief of any variety, no matter how strong or weak, if the first sentence had stated that it was weak belief and then you stated that you had a strong belief now, the initial action would've ended. But you didn't, it was just belief, so any belief is a continuation, albeit clarified.
smashbot226
Smash Master
...... Why isn't this thread closed yet?
Gerudo Warrior
Smash Master
the mods are not in every thread everytime. just keep your pants on and don't post in it
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Because it's still technically the official support thread, until that gets switched over...
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Doesn't work like that, clarifying doesn't mean an end. The action, "belief" is still ongoing, you're only clarified the type of belief in the second sentence, but in the first sentence you had stated that belief had ended, not any specific type of belief, but simply belief.
Specifying it as a stronger belief (or weaker belief) does not linguistically "end" the action, so it doesn't make sense.
No, up until now is imperfect, meaning that the belief IS ended by the phrase "Up until now, I believed Ness would be in brawl". At this point, the belief has ended because of this imperfect tense. I then go on to specify that now I believe it EVEN MORE. This "even more" belief is a new and separate belief from the one which just ended.By specifying that this belief is larger it automatically implies that the initial belief was smaller. Like if I had two glasses with different amounts of water and I stated that one contained more, it would automatically indicate that the other had less.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Linguistically, it's not a separate action, I'm sorry, but you simply do not understand the English past continuous aspect, it's quite confusing but if you're interested you should take a linguistics course, because what you're describing is the English imperfect (not to be confused with every other language's imperfect which is what I was talking about), not the English past continuous (which is every other language's imperfect).
But there's little point to continuing this discussion since the only solution to this is linguistics education for one of us (with each saying the other person needs it). No amount of debate will solve this issue.
I have taken a linguistics course. I've also studied ancient Greek which is the primary basis for our gramatical forms. And yes, linguistically it is a separate action because it changes in degree. It doesn't have to be a change into an entirely separate type of action. The fact that both types of action are beliefs doesn't mean they are the same action.
Sunchaser007
Smash Journeyman
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Only if the original degree was specified...
I think you need another one then (linguistics course).
Gerudo Warrior
Smash Master
wow..... that was trivey...... that audio file confused the crap out of me. but i did understand it
Dry Bones
Smash Ace
well, i have to admit, i expected ness to be removed. congratulations to all those loyal fans who never stopped believing =)
Sunchaser007
Smash Journeyman
i'm glad that jiggs is gonna be back.....i fell in love with her too late in my smash career but now i've got a chance to change all that. Lucario is a good add too
Sunchaser007
Smash Journeyman
<---not a ness fan