Ness in the Matchup Chart

[Yink]

Hey guys, in case you didn't see this thread, Shaky, myself and a few other BBR members worked on Ness for the big BBR matchup chart. This (after talking to tons of people about the matchups) is what we roughly came up for for Ness:

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:

What do you guys think? I'd like to see what you think of the results? The way the numbers work are like this:

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

Discuss away guys. The chart is VERSION 1.0, so don't troll. It will be updated over time. I just want to know what the other Nessers think about this.

 

[Eagleye893]

Okay, yink.... You guys don't factor in PK Jump....

I've gotta go to a tourney and make that usage a standard.




D3 down one (the quickness, killing capability, and speed of D3 all are fairly overwhelming for ness. The CG is a big pain. Counterpicking stages well (Brinstar is meh, delfino is no, but SV or some other stage im forgetting) makes D3 fairly even. PKjump helps to allow approach and pressure to D3 in a weird way. It's a bit difficult to counter for D3 b/c the angle it gets into a couple of D3's weak points. The ability to keep safe after PKjump is key, because you can either bait a grab (dodge can cover any potential grabs from D3) or land with an aerial or dtilt or .... Nair or bair if you're Perfectly spaced.... :Etc)

Shiek isn't a semi-counter.... Maybe an advantage slightly, but nothing makes shiek that much better. Reit PKjump angle. Also, perfect shield and shield dash keep it just takes knowing some of the shiek basics.

Diddy is fairly even. The ability to DJC the nannerz and also PKjump makes several approaching opportunities. Being able to control nannerz makes ness much more on par with diddy.

DK lower. Similar argument to DDD. The GR thing is semi-escapable (I only recently found that out) and the range on everything can be predicted. Bair is too obvious, dsmash is obvious range, pawnch is obvious often. You just need to think a little deeper about the options that DK has to notice that they are somewhat restricted; Ness with proper usage of cancelable things (AC dair, PKJUMP > uair/AD/fair/Nair, FH PKfire > AD > dash..... A bunch of stuff that seizes opportunities of quick action)

More to come.

 

[PKNintendo]

Man this is so depressing. Ness has like 12 positive matchups, how is he even mid tier when characters that are lower than him have superior matchups (/vent)

I don't play this game anymore and I can't offer matchup advice but i'd like to stick around for this matchup list alone. I'm hoping it gets improved.

(-1= 45-55 right?)

 

[Yink]

Well, I know how you feel PK. But on the positive side, Ness DOES have a lot of matchups that are -1 and even which are bearable.

And yes, -1 can be viewed as 45-55 to probably 40-60. Not so sure about the latter though.

I still think Lucario, C. Falc and Pit are wrong. But what can ya do haha. (well a lot but for right now nothing).

Don't worry really. Plus for jokes I kind of think of it like this: Ness loses pretty harshly to DDD and Marth, who have problems against MK. So at least in bracket you SHOULD be happier fighting and MK and hoping that MK takes out the Marth and DDD.

 

[Eagleye893]

OH, yeah.... Cfalc Loses to Ness.... Spikes win when spaced well, Kill moves aren't as much of a thread as they are put off from the Cflac players. Also, Tailwhip > GET ROCKED!

Lucario is even or our advantage. Really. There's enough stuff to make Lucario approach in any situation and some ways (using PKjump or just any normal method) to approach Lucario head-on as ness.

Pit is iffy. He's difficult to kill in general. Other than that, SHIELD IS WAYYYYY OVERRATED! and Arrows are also overrated. Pit's kill moves are all fairly easily predicted and Fsmash is easily SDI'd.


MK is actually more close to -1 than -2.... seems like too much of a stretch for -2. PKjump assists the Fire approachability (although Shuttle loop still gets annoying) and generally Ness has been an MK killer in the past. Fair > most, Grounded PKfire is fairly difficult for a MK to punish unless perfect shield, Range is good on most things.... The only thing MK has over us (which is similar to all ppl) is that he's quick. The GR chain isn't that big of a deal if you can mash out well.

 

[Yink]

I'm definitely not going to argue -1 for MK, probably never Eagle.

He has a nasty smallstep on Ness, and not to mention when we're offstage we get totally pooped on. Fair offstage is a joke to me in this matchup, because it trades (to my knowledge) with Shuttle Loop and that's really not good.

For me the only saving grace is Fair in general onstage, because it takes out Tornado and a few other moves. that and MK isn't very heavy, so we have high killing power.

Still, I'm not going to really complain about that -2 for MK at all.

 

[Eagleye893]

THAT'S THE THING! Fair is only good in some, VERY FEW, situations against MK... and even then ONstage. Bair, Nair, Uair, and Dair AC'd are Ness' main moves for the entire thing... more generally.

Bair = 15% SweetSpot. Because you want to gain as much percent as quickly as possible on MK, you need to go with this move, ftilt, uair (it's safer than nair in most situations), and Dair AC'd. The problem that many people have is spacing the moves in proper ways. PKfire gives a chance to pressure while you attempt to approach. PKjump is move forward (from there, you need to know what to do precisely or else you WILL get punished). FH PKfire is a less safe option due to shuttle loop and uair. Grounded PKfire, normally a VERY poor option, works fairly well against MK (he can dashgrab most of the time... ) in comparison to FH PKfire.

I'm not saying MK is easy particularly. A great MK is difficult. VERY Difficult. It's just that you need to take a different approach to MK, and some other characters, than you would normally.

Fair is effective in some matchups while ineffective in others. THIS, surprisingly enough, is one of those matchups, because Fair is slow, has lots of landing lag if done wrong, and doesn't cover good enough angles at all times. Also, it's multihit... MK can punish anything with minor lag, and thus you must change how you play to include little actual lag-time. AC'd Dair is how I transtion most things B/C it has so little lag. PK Jump done correctly is basically unstoppable because it has so many options and AD'ing it to ground makes more stuff that you can do.

Restricted/Lower-Usage moves VS. MK:

Fair (multi-hit and slow on both ends)
Dtilt (small percent damage and beaten by dsmash and jab of MK (the dsmash gets EVERY followup))
Ftilt (It may be worth the risk sometimes, but it has lesser range and is pretty laggy)
PKT (Needed to recover.... of course. But don't use it offensively unless you can cover many angles at once. MK has good falling speed control and his glide is a counter to attempted PKT hits)
PSImag (It will never help...)
PK Flash (As if I need to explain)
Bat (slow)
Dsmash (ending Lag and fairly easy to DI)
Grab (standing, mainly)


reason why NOT Usmash: quick and not as easy to see coming in some situations. It's already a lesser-used move, so it doesn't matter.

Grabs should be less used b/c of MK's annoying SpotDodge.

 

[PKNintendo]

Yeah I guess if I gave it another look, Ness isn't THAT screwed over. In fact, having lots of -1's>Having a few -1's but many -2's & -3's.

 

[AvariceX]

For what it's worth (which shouldn't be much), I think it should look more like this:

-3
-2
-1
0
1
2

 

[Chuee]

DK lower. Similar argument to DDD. The GR thing is semi-escapable (I only recently found that out) and the range on everything can be predicted. Bair is too obvious, dsmash is obvious range, pawnch is obvious often. You just need to think a little deeper about the options that DK has to notice that they are somewhat restricted; Ness with proper usage of cancelable things (AC dair, PKJUMP > uair/AD/fair/Nair, FH PKfire > AD > dash..... A bunch of stuff that seizes opportunities of quick action)

More to come.

Dear god no. DK ***** Ness. The GR isn't escapable, the best you can do is choose whether you break out to his left or right. Even with that, he still has 20 (30 maybe?) frames to read that and react. -2 is really stretching it. Anything lower is completely unreasonable.

OH, yeah.... Cfalc Loses to Ness.... Spikes win when spaced well, Kill moves aren't as much of a thread as they are put off from the Cflac players. Also, Tailwhip > GET ROCKED!

I would agree, but Falcon has a air release to sweetspot knee on ness that kills ridiculously low.

MK is actually more close to -1 than -2.... seems like too much of a stretch for -2. PKjump assists the Fire approachability (although Shuttle loop still gets annoying) and generally Ness has been an MK killer in the past. Fair > most, Grounded PKfire is fairly difficult for a MK to punish unless perfect shield, Range is good on most things.... The only thing MK has over us (which is similar to all ppl) is that he's quick. The GR chain isn't that big of a deal if you can mash out well.

No, MK poops on Ness. MK has a GR smallstep that leads into Dsmash if Ness is in kill % or Ness being put into a terrible position offstage. Not only that but he also juggles Ness and outspaces him on the ground. Really can't see this as anything better than -2.

 

[AvariceX]

The smallstep MK has is really overrated. It's an issue for sure, but it's nothing like what DK and Marth have. You only get like 2-3 damage from every re-grab; even if he carries you all the way across FD (which shouldn't happen ever) he's gonna get like 20 damage from it (keep in mind pummels are affected by stale moves - sometimes they do 0). The dsmash at the end is the real issue tbh. We've said it before - don't get grabbed.

MK still wrecks Ness though. -2 is a good spot for him.

Also I might bump Sheik and Sheilda up to -1 on my list. I absolutely cannot see either of them being -2 though.

 

[Chuee]

The smallstep MK has is really overrated. It's an issue for sure, but it's nothing like what DK and Marth have. You only get like 2-3 damage from every re-grab; even if he carries you all the way across FD (which shouldn't happen ever) he's gonna get like 20 damage from it (keep in mind pummels are affected by stale moves - sometimes they do 0). The dsmash at the end is the real issue tbh. We've said it before - don't get grabbed.

MK still wrecks Ness though. -2 is a good spot for him.

Also I might bump Sheik and Sheilda up to -1 on my list. I absolutely cannot see either of them being -2 though.

Yeah, I guess you could say that.
Either way it's not the damage that's bad it's the position it puts him in.

 

[Yink]

For what it's worth (which shouldn't be much), I think it should look more like this:

-3
-2
-1
0
1
2

This is crazy! Interesting interpretations: I have to ask Avarice, why do you think DDD is so easy? And Peach...and how does Ness beat Ike? o_O

EDIT: @Chuee: Yeah it wasn't the damage like you said, it was more the TERRIBLE situation you get put in (offstage obviously).

 

[Seagull Joe]

For what it's worth (which shouldn't be much), I think it should look more like this:

-3
-2
-1
0
1
2

Wolf beats Ness 60-40. Why on Earth would you think Wolf is even with Ness?

 

[Eagleye893]

Better question: WHY does Wolf apparently beat ness 60-40? He is not on a difficulty level of DDD, MK, Snake, Falco, or ANYONE else for that matter...

He's even or 55:45 against ness. No WAY he would ever be 60-40 or slight counterpick.

Annoying with laser is absolutely pointless. I will absorb it every time with safety. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Bair is a great aerial to annoy with, because it has range, is quick, and has very little landing lag. That's one thing going for him.
The annoyance with downB for offstage could be a problem, but it is a rule of mine to never waste ness' second jump. It gives ness the ability to recover from basically any position, including the bottom most corners of the screen (I've tried. It works with a skilled ness).

I'd agree with -1 if there was enough other reasoning, but 0 seems good for wolf, IMO.

 

[Yink]

I'll just wait for Seagull to explain why it's so bad. All I know is I think Wolf is difficult and I've played Kain. (course you probably have too Eagle but still).

 

[AvariceX]

Like I said, my chart shouldn't be worth much as I barely play the game anymore, let alone Ness. I was just throwing an opinion out there from my own experiences.

I guess I'll explain though.
First of all Wolf - I have no real experience in this matchup, I'm merely playing it out in my head and can't see it being far from even. This is completely baseless obviously, so take it with a pile of salt.

I think Ike might actually be closer to even... I think on big stages like FD or SV Ness wins playing keepaway. On smaller stages though it's actually probably in Ike's favor.

I've never subscribed to the idea of DDD heavily beating Ness since day 1. In fact I wonder if anyone remembers when I once thought that matchup was 65:35 Ness' favor. Since then I've accepted that it's not really in Ness' favor, but honestly DDD has virtually no mobility and is ridiculously unsafe on any whiff or shielded attack, combine that with Ness' great aerial control and if you can bait out whiffs you can easily punish absolutely anything he does. It's a really long war of attrition fighting DDD, but I don't think it's too steep uphill. The last time I played a really good DDD though was when I played lain over a year ago. Oh and don't get grabbed.

I know these aren't the insightful explanations anyone is looking for, but I didn't plan on explaining them at all really. It's just matchups based entirely on my own experiences.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Better question: WHY does Wolf apparently beat ness 60-40? He is not on a difficulty level of DDD, MK, Snake, Falco, or ANYONE else for that matter...

He's even or 55:45 against ness. No WAY he would ever be 60-40 or slight counterpick.

Annoying with laser is absolutely pointless. I will absorb it every time with safety. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Bair is a great aerial to annoy with, because it has range, is quick, and has very little landing lag. That's one thing going for him.
The annoyance with downB for offstage could be a problem, but it is a rule of mine to never waste ness' second jump. It gives ness the ability to recover from basically any position, including the bottom most corners of the screen (I've tried. It works with a skilled ness).

I'd agree with -1 if there was enough other reasoning, but 0 seems good for wolf, IMO.

Grab release>Dsmash. Fair out prioritizes Ness's everything in the air. Shine gimping. A projectile that forces approaches. Bair when spaced is unpunishable and so is Fair. Wolf is also quite heavy, but Ness's bthrow will kill around 140's I think.

I've played two Ness's...Shaky and Gimr and I beat both of them. I think they'll agree Wolf vs Ness is 60-40 Wolf's favor.

My set with Gimr is up on youtube. I think Choice's/JJwolf matches with Fow used to be up and he won most of them, but I think they were taken down by whoever uploaded them by request or some shiz.

I'll just wait for Seagull to explain why it's so bad. All I know is I think Wolf is difficult and I've played Kain. (course you probably have too Eagle but still).

Thanks Yink.

I think Dajayman has played Kain .

Like I said, my chart shouldn't be worth much as I barely play the game anymore, let alone Ness. I was just throwing an opinion out there from my own experiences.

I guess I'll explain though.
First of all Wolf - I have no real experience in this matchup, I'm merely playing it out in my head and can't see it being far from even. This is completely baseless obviously, so take it with a pile of salt.

I think Ike might actually be closer to even... I think on big stages like FD or SV Ness wins playing keepaway. On smaller stages though it's actually probably in Ike's favor.

I've never subscribed to the idea of DDD heavily beating Ness since day 1. In fact I wonder if anyone remembers when I once thought that matchup was 65:35 Ness' favor. Since then I've accepted that it's not really in Ness' favor, but honestly DDD has virtually no mobility and is ridiculously unsafe on any whiff or shielded attack, combine that with Ness' great aerial control and if you can bait out whiffs you can easily punish absolutely anything he does. It's a really long war of attrition fighting DDD, but I don't think it's too steep uphill. The last time I played a really good DDD though was when I played lain over a year ago. Oh and don't get grabbed.

I know these aren't the insightful explanations anyone is looking for, but I didn't plan on explaining them at all really. It's just matchups based entirely on my own experiences.

You really shouldn't judge a character you have never played/have no experience against. That means that I would think a lot of matchups were even for Wolf, but that's just not true lol.

 

[AvariceX]

Oh I agree, but I wanted to include every character in the list just for the sake of completion, and like I said I didn't really have any reason to think the matchup wasn't even. Maybe I'll play a Wolf eventually, but I doubt it. /shrug

Remember to keep in mind I don't really play this game anymore so my opinions should be only marginally considered at best.

Only thing I would argue is the projectile forcing approaches... Ness can absorb it, and has his own (albeit sub-par) projectiles of his own.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Oh I agree, but I wanted to include every character in the list just for the sake of completion, and like I said I didn't really have any reason to think the matchup wasn't even. Maybe I'll play a Wolf eventually, but I doubt it. /shrug

Remember to keep in mind I don't really play this game anymore so my opinions should be only marginally considered at best.

Only thing I would argue is the projectile forcing approaches... Ness can absorb it, and has his own (albeit sub-par) projectiles of his own.

Ness's projectiles aren't that much of an approach since I have a reflector .

And I understand.

 

[AvariceX]

I just realized that after saying I wanted to include every character for the sake of completion I left Fox out D:

I can agree with the official stance on that one though - 50/50

 

[Eagleye893]

Reflectors don't do anything to PKjump... In fact, PKjump beats reflectors. Aerial pkfire done right is good and transitions very well between things... Unless perfect shielded.

I haven't played kain in a long time, even if I DID play him. I saw my friend get rocked by him when I was a nublet. Other than that, I can argue several things about ness.

Gimping should never be an issue for a good ness. Rule #1.
Rule #2: any ness main doesn't abuse ness' angles on his attacks deserves to fail. Dair isn't going to help much to get an attack, but the fact that it is easy to ground AC makes it great for pressuring while getting close.
Rule #3: dash attack can get anyone that doesn't perfect shield. The third hit (if used space-perfect or -great) pushes back on shields enough so that ness can either shield or spotdodge or grab or jab/dtilt before an opponent can punish. These minor things can pressure opponents well.
Rule #4: any angle is possible for PKT2. If you can't recover from slightly under and right/left of the middle of SV, you need more Pkt(2) control. You need to be able to precisely get every possible trajectory and in any weird situation that you can. If you mess up and accidentally direct Pkt the wrong directiOn when trying to recover, it is easy to redirect it so that the Pkt goes to the right spot on ness' body. Trust me, unless you spend a full second directing Pkt away from ness, you can recover.
rule #5: ... Being able to move seamlessly with ness is a must. Just saiyan. Buffering with ness is needed with half of the things he does, and by that I mean frame-perfect by buffering.

Now to address things in relation to wolf stuff:
GR>Dsmash is pretty obnoxious, I'll agree. That is something I didn't know or forgot.
Fair outprioritizing... Ness' fair out-spaces most things. I think wolf's hurtbox extends into the fair hitbox when wolf bairs, so that's one thing. The fair is the one that can kill. When j think to counter big moves like that, I approach with emptiness. I think of wolf like this: he's a character with a lot of well-prioritized moves and some with quick timing. PrOper knowledge of the quickness, spacing, and priority will help to keep from getting rocked. (I would go into a rant on how I play fighting games with unnecessary precision, but it doesn't matter)
The gimp ability is overridden by ness' ability to recover well. DownB isn't good enough. Lasers get absorbed (it's not as hard as some put it off to absorb something). Some of wolf's other attacks (dthrow? Is that the one that puts the opponent low?) can be troublesome.

I don't know! For the sake of lessened discussion and upholding my sanity, I'll just say that wolf is a tricky character. Maybe it just takes smart enough people to properly play against him. I'll say, for the sake of speaking for general ness mains, ^that the -1 or slightly higher can be justified.

In terms of general ness mains, I'll give my list later.
In terms of oddity, that'll be another list including the PKjump precision and other quirks that lack from the majority's gameplay. Also, PSImag.


PKJUMP is a great and underestimated thing among ness mains...

 

[P.I.E.]

IMO, I think we should look at the snake MU again, because I fare fairly against snake. Simply getting up in his pancake mix is pretty easy to do, and his recovery, just asks for a spike. I'm not saying you're wrong, but what puts ness at a disadvantage against snake?

 

[Chuee]

IMO, I think we should look at the snake MU again, because I fare fairly against snake. Simply getting up in his pancake mix is pretty easy to do, and his recovery, just asks for a spike. I'm not saying you're wrong, but what puts ness at a disadvantage against snake?

his recovery definitely isn't easy to spike lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Reflectors don't do anything to PKjump... In fact, PKjump beats reflectors. Aerial pkfire done right is good and transitions very well between things... Unless perfect shielded.

I haven't played kain in a long time, even if I DID play him. I saw my friend get rocked by him when I was a nublet. Other than that, I can argue several things about ness.

Gimping should never be an issue for a good ness. Rule #1.
Rule #2: any ness main doesn't abuse ness' angles on his attacks deserves to fail. Dair isn't going to help much to get an attack, but the fact that it is easy to ground AC makes it great for pressuring while getting close.
Rule #3: dash attack can get anyone that doesn't perfect shield. The third hit (if used space-perfect or -great) pushes back on shields enough so that ness can either shield or spotdodge or grab or jab/dtilt before an opponent can punish. These minor things can pressure opponents well.
Rule #4: any angle is possible for PKT2. If you can't recover from slightly under and right/left of the middle of SV, you need more Pkt(2) control. You need to be able to precisely get every possible trajectory and in any weird situation that you can. If you mess up and accidentally direct Pkt the wrong directiOn when trying to recover, it is easy to redirect it so that the Pkt goes to the right spot on ness' body. Trust me, unless you spend a full second directing Pkt away from ness, you can recover.
rule #5: ... Being able to move seamlessly with ness is a must. Just saiyan. Buffering with ness is needed with half of the things he does, and by that I mean frame-perfect by buffering.

Now to address things in relation to wolf stuff:
GR>Dsmash is pretty obnoxious, I'll agree. That is something I didn't know or forgot.
Fair outprioritizing... Ness' fair out-spaces most things. I think wolf's hurtbox extends into the fair hitbox when wolf bairs, so that's one thing. The fair is the one that can kill. When j think to counter big moves like that, I approach with emptiness. I think of wolf like this: he's a character with a lot of well-prioritized moves and some with quick timing. PrOper knowledge of the quickness, spacing, and priority will help to keep from getting rocked. (I would go into a rant on how I play fighting games with unnecessary precision, but it doesn't matter)
The gimp ability is overridden by ness' ability to recover well. DownB isn't good enough. Lasers get absorbed (it's not as hard as some put it off to absorb something). Some of wolf's other attacks (dthrow? Is that the one that puts the opponent low?) can be troublesome.

I don't know! For the sake of lessened discussion and upholding my sanity, I'll just say that wolf is a tricky character. Maybe it just takes smart enough people to properly play against him. I'll say, for the sake of speaking for general ness mains, ^that the -1 or slightly higher can be justified.

In terms of general ness mains, I'll give my list later.
In terms of oddity, that'll be another list including the PKjump precision and other quirks that lack from the majority's gameplay. Also, PSImag.


PKJUMP is a great and underestimated thing among ness mains...

If you PKfire my reflector then I can punish you immediately because I can then jump out of reflector and punish your lag...

 

[Yink]

IMO, I think we should look at the snake MU again, because I fare fairly against snake. Simply getting up in his pancake mix is pretty easy to do, and his recovery, just asks for a spike. I'm not saying you're wrong, but what puts ness at a disadvantage against snake?

Idk what Snakes you play, but if the Snake is being really dumb with projectiles and camping Ness has a pretty hard time getting over there. Especially since nades force you to use nair more than fair (otherwise half the time you hit the grenade and just explode).

I agree that once Ness gets in it's not that difficult (unless you get grabbed, have fun with that). And yes, we can gimp Snake 2 different ways offstage that are both legit, but onstage it's just, a nightmare if the Snake really knows the matchup and plays as ****ing dumb as possible.

Getting outcamped and outprioritized are what makes this matchup bad. Oh and Snakes a heavy dude, so you really have to watch what you use, otherwise it's all stale and takes even longer.

 

[P.I.E.]

Idk what Snakes you play, but if the Snake is being really dumb with projectiles and camping Ness has a pretty hard time getting over there. Especially since nades force you to use nair more than fair (otherwise half the time you hit the grenade and just explode).

I agree that once Ness gets in it's not that difficult (unless you get grabbed, have fun with that). And yes, we can gimp Snake 2 different ways offstage that are both legit, but onstage it's just, a nightmare if the Snake really knows the matchup and plays as ****ing dumb as possible.

Getting outcamped and outprioritized are what makes this matchup bad. Oh and Snakes a heavy dude, so you really have to watch what you use, otherwise it's all stale and takes even longer.

I understand that camping is an issue. But I for one just charge up to him when the match starts, so he can't affect me with nades, or land mines, his side special, will be too slow to react, and his c4 is easy to spot ( since I know where he'll have to put it at that point.) I understand he won't die so easy, but that's where tilts and fair come in (up till about 80 maybe, depends on your play style) and after that, challenging him with aerials isn't that difficult. I know we can't simply ignore the blasted utilt, and uair, but he can only use it if you have a really punishable approach (fair fail). His grabs, I admit are extremely difficult for me to get out of, but other than that, I woulnd't say it's an disadvantage, but it's pretty manageable, especially with his heaviness stuck in pkfire, and knowing how the opponent's going to react to it. I say he's even o.o But then again, I've only played about 4 snake mains.

 

[Yink]

You RUN up to a Snake? That's ridiculous. He can just ftilt lol.

Also, Snake does murder Ness offstage. I play Joker (our Snake main) and man, once I'm offstage it's tough, because he either throws a grenade or nikitas. He'll even nikita on purpose to halfen the PKT2 distance.

Idk PIE, I don't know how you deal with it so easily. If it makes you feel better, I argued for a -1 instead of a -2, but ended up changing it because I think Shaky said it was harder. I still don't think it's even though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I still think Lucario, C. Falc and Pit are wrong. But what can ya do haha. (well a lot but for right now nothing).

We ran out of time and you were busy. I'd like to hear this more another time however.

I will say I did say +1 on my input and a lot if not all the people who helped said the same, that I will say did happen on our panel.

Lucario is even or our advantage. Really. There's enough stuff to make Lucario approach in any situation and some ways (using PKjump or just any normal method) to approach Lucario head-on as ness.

I have reasons to consider the Physic kids even, or really dang close to it. Ness having an advantage was not one of those considerations and imo for good reason.

 

[Yink]

Yeah I don't think Ness beats Lucario lol...but I think it's even. Like, I'm so certain it's even. But yes, as Ryu said, we didn't have time.

I have reasons (and I know Shaky did too) as to why we believed it was even.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't blame you at all, Mario, Ness, Lucas, Ike are characters ranked lower on the list that really don't do that bad against Lucario, I wouldn't consider even entirely out of the question even if for ones like Mario where I'm sure Lucario has the advantage.

Some I could see it being even. We can talk about it when we have a MU discussion or another chart is being made, we just had time constraints, and so did the BBR, so it stayed as a +1.

 

[Jiffyboob]

Lucario is pawsome!!!!!
Lucario has many MUs that could be considered even. His entire character design is built that way... like no matter how bad he gets *****, he gets stronger and can come back and win.
imo, Lucario is not Ness favor, most likely even. I mean, Ness has tools to shut down his campy game but can really use any of his projectiles much either: PK Fire: Lucario has one of the easiest times DI'ing out of it. PKT really isn't much good, I mean it would be since he's floaty, but in the air his aerials cancel it out... Recovery is somewhat linear but his aerials protect him from alot of punishment. Extreme Speed, if forced to be used is vulnerable. You can get some damage out of that if you can predict it.
He's really good at stringing moves together. His tilts are lightning quick. That FSmash is pretty darn godly; that range and transcendent priority. (Ness's bat should be like that ) His aerials really aren't bad. They are underrated. Idk, Lucario is just a good character tbh.
Bah, coffee must be kicking in here......
Oh, I have to say something about his roll too. If the Lucario player isn't predictable with their rolls, you will have a hell of a time. It's so good. lolol

ABOUT THE CHART:
Idk, there are a few things I'd change about this MU chart.
Like.... I refuse to believe Ness is even with Olimar. I disagreed with this board over it for a long time, especially when it was labeled Ness's favor.
Hmmmm, with this reply I can't see the list so I'll just put my two-cents in for that.

ABOUT POSTS I CAN SEE: One of the best things we have on D3 is the fact he's a big target, other than that, he's pretty good at ****** Ness.
Idk, I can't really wrap my head around Snake. A few thoughts though....You don't want to be close to him cause he's so stupidly awesome, and you don't want to be far away either. I mean, it's been said that PKT can negate his nade game, which it can.... but for how long? Idk, maybe I need to work on my PKT game but eventually his nades will get through. Only thing I can advice is hit and run. Space he **** out of him and wait for a mistake, get in, do what you can extremely safely and get the hell out. Idk, Snake is pretty stupid lololol.
Wolf: I think this could be even... COULD... but honestly, I think it's Wolf's favor. Wolf is pretty underrated honestly. He has many tools to shut down Ness kinda hard... Idk this looks like it was discussed already so I'm stopping.

sorry, didn't mean to ramble and I guess this isn't a MU thread but I don't post here much so when I get the urge to post... well, I try and make it worth while.

 

[Eagleye893]

Okay... since we haven't really discussed anything with MUs in forever, I feel using this chart as a start is a good idea. How about we start with some characters that may involve some discussion? When I went over, I agreed with most of the chart, which is saddening due to how poorly ness is matched against every character.

Just to name some that I, personally, saw slightly out of place. My final decision may end up agreeing with that of the current chart though.

(to -2. b/c he isn't as hard of a counter as Marth)
(to -1, ... not certain why now, but I'm starting to agree with the -2)
(to -1. Playing smart as opposed to approaching in a dumb fashion gives Ness SOME legitimacy, but snake still has power and grab pwnage. Like MK, might just forget about that.)
(to -1. Ness' Bair is an awesome attack that pressures without fear of being grabbed by some characters. Also, blizzard and ice-shot are slightly less legitimate for keeping Ness out b/c of PSImag and bat)
(stay the same, but I REALLY want to have some discussion about him. Ness having a banana is DEADLY!)
(to 0. NESS' BAIR BEATS KIRBY FSMASH! [I think... It worked on two occasions...]. If not, disregard the suggestion)
(to 0. He's obnoxious when good, despite the fact that nobody uses him)

I don't think much else can be argued up or down other than what I have strong opinions for (Wolf and Lucario might be neutral to me...)

 

[PKNintendo]

What the **** is going on. Rebecca black isn't that funny lol.

Ness=Mess?

 

[Eagleye893]

Metaknight ,
Snake ,
Dedede ,
Diddy ,
Marth ,
Falco ,
Fox ,
Wolf ,
ROB ,
Pikachu ,
Pit ,
Lucas ,
Ness ,
Mario ,
Ike ,
Lucario ,
Wario ,
Jigglypuff ,
Ganon or Ganondorf ,
Captain Falcon ,
Link ,
Zelda ,
Shiek ,
Pokemon Trainer or PT,
Charizard ,
Squirtle ,
Ivysaur ,
Bowser ,
Olimar ,
DK Or Donkey Kong ,
Peach ,
Luigi ,
Sonic ,
Yoshi ,
Game and Watch or GnW ,
Kirby ,
... I know I forgot someone...

Oh well.
Most of the MUs I am agreeing with. I hate Rebecca Black....

 

[ViceGrip]

Changes I would make to what Yink originally posted are as follows:

D3 to -2
Gaw to 0
Pit to 0
Olimar to -1
Peach to -1
mario to 0
Zelda to 0
Bowser to 2
Jigglypuff to 2
Fox to -1 (his grab release to regrab to usmash can be really bad)

I can go into further detail about these if anyone likes. Otherwise list looks fine to me. I'm not sure if shiek and sheik/zelda should be at -2 but I can see how they could potentially give Ness that much trouble. (shiek being hard to catch, having early kill w/ grab release, good keep away game etc.)

 

[Eagleye893]

Changes I would make to what Yink originally posted are as follows:

D3 to -2
Gaw to 0
Pit to 0
Olimar to -1
Peach to -1
mario to 0
Zelda to 0
Bowser to 2
Jigglypuff to 2
Fox to -1 (his grab release to regrab to usmash can be really bad)

I can go into further detail about these if anyone likes. Otherwise list looks fine to me. I'm not sure if shiek and sheik/zelda should be at -2 but I can see how they could potentially give Ness that much trouble. (shiek being hard to catch, having early kill w/ grab release, good keep away game etc.)

Agree on D3.
Partly agree on GnW... I just suck against GnW.
Pit is iffy... SideB and Shield. Other than that, we can basically dominate. Sometimes, his weight is confusing.
Where was Oli before? He should be at -1 anyway. It's not like he's a giant mess to deal with, but he has a slight edge over ness b/c of fair and PKT being lightning-based (bair's sourspot can fend off yellow pikmin, IIRC)
Peach... agree on the -1 placement. Some of the things she can do are annoying, but Ness has ways around them, especially in lagless environments.
Mario is most likely even. Cape isn't that much of a help. Usmash might be a problem though; it's fast, but I'm not 100% sure if it's capable of being used out of a grab release.
Bowser... eh... It's a bit of a stretch, but I can see that. Our everything works well on him, and not too much is going for him that isn't going for every other character in the game.
Jiggz... I disagree. 1 seems good enough, IMO... I also have trouble against Jiggz for absolutely no reason sometimes (emphasis on sometimes), so I wouldn't know.
Fox. I really didn't know about the GR chain. If that's the case, then DANG! That sucks.

 

[Bartolon]

We have disadvantage against GAW, not even.

 

[ViceGrip]

Pit could be a disadvantage, just because of how solid of a character he is (similiar to Lucario, even though we do very well vs both of them) but I still think the matchup is close enough that it is even.

Bart why is Gaw a disadvantage? He is less dynamic and is more predictable than Ness, can be killed reliably early by us (he can kill way early...but not reliably at all, barring a fresh fair near the edge), and as long as you are keen about pretty much only using fair to challenge his ariels (in most situations our other ariels lose to his, mainly his nair) and staying to the side of him you should be doing well in clashes.

Jiggs loses to fair and dies at ~ 100%. I know she can maneuver quite well and can sometimes get us into bad situations but for the most part your ariels should be dominating her ariels.

Bowser loses to fair and pk fire as well. If you only approach with fair he will never be able to air grab you, something to keep in mind. I still stand by my assessment of bowser and jiggs at -2, though if one we to move back to -1 i'd probably put bowser back, he does have some tricks and upB out of shield is decent.

Also I don't have a video of fox doing this to ness, but i know it is possible and it is MEAN.

Also some of you may notice I moved Zelda up to 0. In this matchup we have to approach her and that she has to approach us as well (neither can camp very well due to absorption/reflector). Because Zelda has a pretty darn good defensive game (that she just usually doesn't get to use very often, thus one of the key reasons she is rated low) this matchup seems even.

Eagle, Kirby may be 0 but not sure enough to say that he belongs there. I've done very well vs Kirby's in the past and GIMR beat ChuDat...Very doable match, but with amazing spacing it can be challenging to get around a kirby only spamming bair haha.

 

[Eagleye893]

Here are some ways that I approach:

PK Jump gives an approaching option.

AC'd Dair semi-approach is always safe. Shield on landing, from shield you get OoS Aerials. If not shield on landing, everything else you can do is super quick.

Dash Attack perfect-spaced is also a very reasonable approach.

Semi-Retreated Bair is great on shields, but you need to hit either the top edge or the bottom edge of the opponent's shield for it to matter.
​

*more will come... I was going to describe how this applies to some characters and how to use some more different ways of approaching with ness.

EDIT:
I don't remember what character this was aimed at... Frick.