Ness and Lucas.

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

These little guys are both said to be bad matchups for zelda.

I know an easy way to deal with them is to swhitch to shiek... but, I wonder... just how bad are these matchups supposed to be anyway?

The reason everyone says they are so bad is because you can't Din's fire campt them. You can still use Din's in other ways, but you can't camp against them.

The thing is, how big a blow is that to Zelda... I don't think it's enough to instantly declare the matchup bad... so.. what else do the little earthbounders have going for them in this matchup?

 

[blink777]

The unfortunate thing is that the majority of the community thinks of Zelda as Din's Fire and Din's Fire alone (well, maybe a little F/USmash). Therefore, they figure most of her few bad matchups come from being able to punish it. It's quite ridiculous, in my mind.

Zelda outranges the **** out of both of them, and their own projectiles are slow enough that Nayru's Love is almost always a safe bet against them. Honestly, I'd count the Earthbound boys as Neutral against Zelda: I've had a worse time against Metaknight, Zamus, and even Lucario than these two.

So yeah, I second your question: where the heck is the rest of this allegedly bad matchup coming from?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i tink it use to be a bad matchup for zelda when the game first game out but most zelda's play style has changed by now making them a neutral matchup. i had not played many lucas's and then in the last tournament i was in i came across one for maybe one stock i had a little trouble b/c i did not know lucas well but once i know how long to hold my shield for he became cake. His smashes are slow and predictable so he was not that tough to beat. Anyway if you are not a zelda that relies on din spamming you should be able to handle the earthbounders

thats how i feel about it

 

[Somacruz2]

Alot of the problem doesn't come from DIn's fire, one of my friends is a Lucas Player and we go at it like its no tommorow. THe real problem is the fact that Lucas outprioritizes Zelda alot of the time, and his moves come out quicker. As well as the fact that Lucas can Majorly punish a Laggy Up B with his Up smash or F-SMash. Ness i don't find a problem typically, the only reason he's listed is because of Blink's reasoning and that people think that DIn's FIre is a playable character. Lucas is a viable counter pick ontop of the fact that he can PSI Magnet. However the way i deal with it, is the fact that since Lucas is a short CHaracter, he's very weak to the D-Tilt Lock. I found that the D-Tilt Lock is very good against shorter characters for some reason, and lucas is no exception.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

i tink it use to be a bad matchup for zelda when the game first game out but most zelda's play style has changed by now making them a neutral matchup. i had not played many lucas's and then in the last tournament i was in i came across one for maybe one stock i had a little trouble b/c i did not know lucas well but once i know how long to hold my shield for he became cake. His smashes are slow and predictable so he was not that tough to beat. Anyway if you are not a zelda that relies on din spamming you should be able to handle the earthbounders

thats how i feel about it

Agreed. A Din's Fire spammer never gets far against Ness/Lucas. (Actually they rarely get far in any serious 1v1, at least what I've seen.)

 

[blink777]

Alot of the problem doesn't come from DIn's fire, one of my friends is a Lucas Player and we go at it like its no tommorow.

I managed to make my friend switch away from Lucas as a main because my Zelda ***** him. But I will admit, him aside, I've only played a couple other Lucas's, and they were wifi (and we all know those don't really count ) so I can't say I've had enough experience dealing with some of the things you've said, Somacruz.

EDIT: Omigawde, run on sentence...

 

[Looper]

bllhblhblhblhb

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've played several decent lucases... the matchup seems neutral.

Despite Being able to absorb Din's fire... his recovery makes him, really, a prime target for it. He is, after all, completely prone while UBing.

his projectiles are easy to reflect and he;s not the best approacher. Aside from that, he's lightweight and doesn;t have zelda's range in most cases.

It's true he's no peice of cake due to not being able to be Din's camped and that his Usmash can punish a bad FW (but, then again, what can't) but it doesn;t really seem to give him any significant edge over zelda.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

My friend plays a good Ness, and it's not really the Psi Magnet that's the problem. In many ways it's to my advantage because he thinks I'll never use it because of his down b. But if he's in the middle of something or about midway away, a surprise Din's Fire will usually get him. Instincts make him shield more than down b, but he's more likely to get hit. Simply never use more than one in a row.

No, the big problem with Ness is his small frame, floatiness, a few safe moves and power. small and floaty characters are so hard to sweetspot. But also, Ness's fair and dash attack are super safe. The hit boc for his fair is way out in front of him, so NEss can safely shorthop, fair, and float back out of reach thanks to his maneuverability. Same with his Dash, which hits three times in front of him. It's really hard to powershield because it hits way quicker than you think it will. Also his PK fire is safe than you think on the ground. NL won't reflect it back all the way to hit him. And if you ARE close enough for it too, you'll never have the reflexes to pull it off unless you KNOW he's going to, but who's going to risk that? F'smash is safer at that distance.

Finally Ness' aerials are overall easier to land, have better priority, and easier sweetspots. Just don't counter his bair with a fair, it won't end well. His spike is also really easy to get off so Zelda is a sitting duck if you FW close to the ledge.

Tips for fighting Ness are few. It really is easier to fight as Sheik but anyway. First off, never dash attack. It's just not safe. Ness has a super fast grab and his back throw can kill rather easily. The safest place is when Ness is above you or over the ledge. Ness' dair is indeed deadly, but Zelda's uair hits way above her and will always win if he insists on trying. Or you can jump and use a delayed nair if he starts dodging instead. The other best place is Ness off the ledge. Ness can be easily gimped. Grab the ledge during the PK Thunder if he's below it, or if he's above and way out, you can actually safely DF. Either he;ll try to absorb it and fall to his death or into a fair, or you can posistion it just right so that the explosion ONLY hits the thunder and not Ness so that he falls to his doom. It's not easy, but it's doable.

Safest moves are f-smash and d-tilt. If he's shorthopping f-smash will reach and you may even crouch under it if you d-tilt instead. D-tilt can set up for easy f-smash, or even an angled down f-tilt. If you get caught in the PK Fire he's going to try to grab you most of the time. Smashe DI to either side and mash NL like a madman, it'll protect you and even send him away if you're acing the opposite direction of him.


That's te best advise for Ness I can give. I don't have experience fighting Lucas so the info probably doesn't transfer.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if you are in a pk fire column... you can still use NL to reflect it.

 

[popsofctown]

I've only played Lucas, i lost most of the time. I'm open minded about this matchup, i think it might be neutral.

One thing Lucas has is Zelda's height. She's tall for her weight, which gives more flexibility and ease to his short-hop nair approach.

I always use Sheik and abuse the slow grab-break-away animation. Only Marth has infinites, but you can still get some pretty good stuff going.

 

[imdavid]

marth + charizard lawls :]

 

[psike]

Somacruz was dead on with the downtilt suggestion as well- it is a really effective spammable move when you are right out of a small characters range, or behind a character (like Lucas) that can't do a lot on both sides.

 

[Brinzy]

Why does everyone think "ooh, they placed this as a bad match-up because everyone thinks Din's Fire is everything"? I made a post about this last night:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4721930&postcount=2237


The fight might be considered neutral to you all, but in the mind of a Ness player, having the ability to force Zelda out of a defensive position and then having safe approaches isn't working for Zelda, and then on top of that, he's far better at her in the air than she is most of the time. The only way Zelda could possibly perform better than Ness in the air is if that Zelda can sweetspot every last fair/bair/dair. As I said in that post, sweet-spotting with Ness is very easy, and if you miss the sweetspot, there's enough knockback that you won't get punished for it, AND you can even kill with un-sweetspotted bair/dair. Zelda's un-sweetspotted aerials and her DI-punishable smashes will never kill an opponent like Ness.

But I disgress... now it's time for me to talk about Lucas. The Earthbounders might seem similar at first, but they're not; however, both of them can treat Zelda in a similar fashion:

- both can force Zelda out of a defensive position; PK Fire, when used in whatever style you must use it for with the characters, will annoy Zelda. Nayru's Love isn't gonna do much for her. She should only be trying to reflect PK Thunder from a long distance. For PK Fire, you're gonna have to shield, period.

- both can pressure her in the air, but it's not so much the same... I'll go into detail about this.

- both have quicker tilts. Lucas's Usmash is very punishable if he misses... but what about his Fsmash? Dsmash lasts for quite a while, too. As I said with Ness, Din's Fire isn't obsolete, but it is limited. When Lucas's Dsmashes and misses you up close, throw out a quick Din's. Other than that, both characters are just as efficient on the ground as Zelda, if not better.



Now to go in-depth... Lucas, in my opinion, is an even more difficult match for Zelda. He's better designed for the ground than the air, but this doesn't matter because Lucas is quicker and has better priority in the air over Zelda anyway. His nair leads into quick combos; nair -> side-tilt is a very fast combo that's gonna do around 25%, possibly a little more. Fair is a bit situational and risky if Zelda knows her fair/bair well, but it's still lands sooner than her aerials due to the odd hitbox it has. Dair is amazing. Disjointed hitboxes, can rack up 20% with ease, sends the opponent downward with the last kick, and can be short-hopped to lead into more combos. It's gonna reach past Zelda's u-tilt. It *can* reach past Zelda's uSmash, but it's risky. Regardless, so long as you don't get landing lag, it's very safe to go with. Oh, and don't be surprised if you get hit with it before you uair him. The speed of it is amazing. Bair is an amazing approach, and it shields Lucas from several attacks. It even spikes. Any Lucas who is good with bair will give Zelda trouble because on top of having to sweetspot with three kicks, she now has to land those kicks while getting through that barrier. His uair, like Ness's, is fast and it has great killing potential. I'm not a fan of its angled knockback, but it's a good aerial nonetheless. Zelda does not want to be in range of this, ever.

On the ground... side-tilt and Fsmash come out very fast, and both can kill. His side-tilt comes out faster than most of Zelda's moves, and for the rest, it has better range. Fsmash is deadly, and it's a favorite punisher for players. His dtilt is like Ness's; spammable and it trips you up with a very high success rate (50%), and the damage on it is great. 6% and burns down to 4-5%. You can get several of these off quite fast and rack up 30% with ease, WHILE preventing them from immediately punishing you. Zelda's dtilt hurts, but Lucas can DI out of it fairly soon. Maybe these moves are even. Dsmash is a slower move than most of what these two can throw out, but what it brings makes up for it: it kills at very low %s, it lasts a long time, making spot-dodging it impossible, and it even hits from behind, very close to Lucas's body. Zelda could get a speedy dtilt or Dsmash here, but aside from Fsmash and Usmash, her attacks don't last for long at all. Got someone rolling around Lucas? Dsmash. It connects so often because people misjudge its range and how long it lasts. utilt comes out very fast as well. It's great to use when someone is on top of Lucas and it leads to combos. It has a slight umbrella effect, too, but most don't rely on it. Usmash is very slow but very satisfying if it hits. That thing goes AROUND Lucas and then UP. If Zelda is trying to recover from somewhere and she's not looking to hit the edge, she had better watch out, because this will eat through her re-appearance of Farore's Wind. It's a great move if used sparingly, and it kills Zelda very early on.

Grabbing... well it's straight-forward. Lucas has better reach; Zelda has better cooldown. Both have strong throws. This runs even.

Lucas has very good edgeguarding. He has two options for spiking and he has three special attacks. Zelda can try to reflect those specials here, so long as the lag time doesn't leave her punishable. One problem that Zelda will have is that her uair takes out opponents from below, but Lucas can start his bair without being in range of her uair, and if it does reach Zelda, it's more than likely gonna sweetspot because you're already starting the non-spiking part of it before you're in range of Zelda and her uair. If landing this is risky, he can always resort to a dair, which already has incredible range and power. Making it back to the stage is a piece of cake, especially since Zelda isn't the fastest person out there.

Now, here's why I believe that edgeguarding Lucas with Zelda isn't so easy; Zelda's Dsmash and maybe her b-throw are the only two moves I can think of off the top of my head that launch Lucas off the screen at an unfavorable angle far enough to force him to use PK Thunder to recover. With everything else, he can simply PSI magnet to slow his falling momentum and he can tether the edge. His mid-air jump gives him the flotation he needs to get in range of sweetspotting with the tether. Most don't except Lucas to tether the edge unless they've been playing people who do it normally. If they do expect it, they'll grab the edge... which is when you're supposed to use PKT2 to recover. Zelda's edgeguarding is good as well, but again, PSI magnet eats Din's Fire. Spiking Lucas with Zelda is risky; if I can knock Metaknight out for a stock with a uair while recovering, I can do the same to Zelda. It's so fast that it's risky going for a spike with Zelda. She can try to fair/bair him, but again, a simple air-dodge or misplaced kick will backfire on Zelda. She has limited options for edgeguarding Lucas.

I'm sure there's more to cover, but this is what I wanted to get out. Din's Fire alone is not why people believe Zelda is at a disadvantage, though it does count; it also has a LOT to do with the fact that both of them have the upper-hand in the air and that both of them operate well on the ground against her. She's even with them on the ground, but it's a different story when it comes to fighting in the air. Zelda is not advantaged.

The unfortunate thing is that the majority of the community thinks of Zelda as Din's Fire and Din's Fire alone (well, maybe a little F/USmash). Therefore, they figure most of her few bad matchups come from being able to punish it. It's quite ridiculous, in my mind.

Zelda outranges the **** out of both of them, and their own projectiles are slow enough that Nayru's Love is almost always a safe bet against them. Honestly, I'd count the Earthbound boys as Neutral against Zelda: I've had a worse time against Metaknight, Zamus, and even Lucario than these two.

So yeah, I second your question: where the heck is the rest of this allegedly bad matchup coming from?

No, no she does not outrange the **** out of them. If she does outrange them with an attack, they're gonna pop out any of their tilts before her, OR they're gonna embarrass her in the air. No, Nayru's Love isn't always a safe bet. People bait Zelda into using it because they know it won't reach her and they'll just grab her or hit her from above.

Despite Being able to absorb Din's fire... his recovery makes him, really, a prime target for it. He is, after all, completely prone while UBing.

his projectiles are easy to reflect and he;s not the best approacher. Aside from that, he's lightweight and doesn;t have zelda's range in most cases.

Like I just said, you don't need to Up B with Lucas against Zelda that often because only 1-2 of her moves will even knock Lucas away to where he does have to Up B. He's not completely vulnerable to Up B - you can throw PK Thunder out in front of Lucas and then recover with it. I've done this plenty of times before. They get hit by the beam and now they have to worry about coming back. Sometimes, if I pull it off flawlessly, I can even blast into them after the attack, and that usually gets them 45% punishment and/or a stock loss. Don't rely on Nayru's Love to counter this; one could just as easily fall back on the "normal" PK Thunder recovery to avoid it and then hit Zelda.

You're only gonna reflect his projectiles if you have the reaction speed and the distance to pull it off. It doesn't matter if you reflect for the most part because it's not gonna come back, and it's laggy. Like I said before, you better shield before you reflect.

Also, why in the hell does everyone call Lucas and Ness "lightweight"? Newsflash: Zelda is lighter than both of them.


Ness 98.42
Sonic 98.33
Pit 98.28
Lucas 97.72
Toon Link 97.59
Ice Climbers 97.34
Diddy Kong 97.22
Peach 96.97
Marth 95.52
Zelda 94.64

You say that Lucas doesn't have a good approach? Baloney. No Zelda player can rag on anyone else's approaching game. Range? If they're not even, Lucas has better range than her, and he has the speed to back it up. Oh no, a Zelda side-tilt.

if you are in a pk fire column... you can still use NL to reflect it.

Like I said before, waste your time reflecting that instead of DIing it and you'll get attacked from above. Not only that, but Ness's smash attacks can reach PAST that column of fire and hit Zelda, so what's the point in reflecting them? If Nayru's Love + the fire column shield her from these smash attacks (which is possible), there's always the air.

marth + charizard lawls :]

Too bad Marth + Charizard =/= Zelda.


P.S. By no means do I dislike Zelda. It probably seems that way because I'm constantly arguing against her, but I'm rather fond of her playing style and her character. I'm looking to make her a secondary eventually, too. I simply don't feel that she's all that she's made out to be according to that chart.

 

[blink777]

Thanks, Successor. I was hoping we'd get some input from a Lucas/Ness mainer. I may not agree with some of your points, but at least I feel content seeing some real reasons why people believe Zelda's at a disadvantage. I think I can live with the community's decision now. Thanks again.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

obviously... both sides are biased... dang it... how will we ever come to an agreement on this?

 

[Brinzy]

Thanks, though I believe it could be improved. I'm not too familiar with the things that Zelda can do, so I'll have to wait until someone cleans it up.

obviously... both sides are biased... dang it... how will we ever come to an agreement on this?

I'm not being "biased." I know more about Ness/Lucas than I do Zelda, and I'm looking to defend them. I've acknowledged that there are several things that Zelda can do to Ness/Lucas to mess them up, but they can force her out of campiness better than most characters. Zelda can employ similar strategies (using Din's Fire to bait into PSI Magnet), but they can recover from such baits faster than Zelda can, and Zelda can't follow up as effectively due to having to sweetspot so much.

I mean, it's probably a close match-up, but it's somewhere between 6:4 Earthbounder and 5:5.

 

[blink777]

I mean, it's probably a close match-up, but it's somewhere between 6:4 Earthbounder and 5:5.

I'm going to agree with you there.

Gah, I didn't want to, but I'm going to discuss one of your points anyway. I still believe NL is a decent counter to either character's PKFire, when used properly. And by properly I mean never on the ground when going up against this attack. I find a short-hopped NL relatively safe (though, of course, not infallible [sp?]), as it'll give you a little bit more range on the returned PKF, lower your chance of getting grabbed, and increase your chance of slapping them a bit with the crystals.

But like I said, it's not perfect, and I'm sure you can get around it. How do you deal with it?

lol, I'm loving this thread now. Ness and Lucas are my secondaries, and this is turning out to be just about as informative as actually going to their subforums .

 

[Brinzy]

I never thought of short-hopping NL. In fact, that probably counters a lot of what I said about it - if I short-hop PK Fire with Lucas and it gets reflected, jumping could get me punished from the skill, and then I'd have to jump high and far enough to get to Zelda. It kills his grabbing indeed. I suppose if it won't make it back to me, at the very least it's gonna keep Zelda even safer due to being able to prevent a grab. That also reduces her lag time, right?

If I were to deal with this, I'd probably take my chances at using it on the ground with Lucas, since maybe then I could still get a running attack in, but it's unlikely. With Ness... well, I wouldn't be surprised if Nayru's Love actually hit me and stopped my offense. I think a maneuver like that would make me think twice about approaching with PK Fire, and at the very least, this gives points to Zelda.

Anything else you see? I'm not really familiar with most of what Zelda can do.

 

[popsofctown]

my open-minded self leans to lucas and ness beating Zelda now.

I have a couple comments on your long post:

You said that Zelda doesn't really have any long lasting moves besides F-smash and U-smash, and i can't quite let that go. Zelda is the queen of long lasting moves and punishing spot dodges: Fsmash has almost unfair short after lag, upsmash with it's wicked priority, and the move you forgot, Nayru's Love. When used for melee it's a great, long lasting move. You better not miss with it, but its safety is enhanced by a couple invincibility frames and just enough knockback to prevent shield->punish sometimes.
These moves may be particularly unuseful against Lucas, but then i would prefer you say something like: Zelda doesn't have long-lasting moves she can safely throw out in this match up.

Also, i sense a disregard for the alternative to pitting Zelda's aerials against a PK boy's aerials: she can try to airdodge all the way to the ground instead. The game is geared, of course, to prevent players from totally nullifying their opponents opportunity to juggle, but Brawl gives a lot of power to the airdodge, and she might get down safely.

Everything else i read was like, valid

 

[FirebyrdXX]

True but if you start doing it every time they can start to predict it and subsequently fake you out by delaying their attacks.

Unquestionably to me, Ness and Lucas have an advantage, but not a big one. It may be closer to 7:3, but 6:4 does sound bad either.

 

[blink777]

Well, I guess I could try bringing up some more stuff. You're a good guy, and I think this could be helpful on both sides. Though I do agree now with a lot of your points.

- at least off the very top of the match, I believe a short hopped Din's Fire approach is certainly an option for Zelda. If they have no damage, then there's really no reason to absorb the attack anyway. And even later on, I think if timed properly (Zelda releasing the attack just infront of her, and landing on the ground as she does so) the lag around the Magnet leaves the Earthbounders open to punishment. That being said, if Zelda's too close to Lucas here, he could probably just slap her by releasing the Magnet.

- gotta agree with you wholeheartedly about Ness ****** Zelda in the air. Yeah, all of Zelda's upward attacks outrange and outprioritize his super-fun Dair, but gah it's still scary. Zelda can outrange Ness's Bair, but if he's taking her to the air in the first place, she'll probably get outspaced anyway.

- I don't agree, however, that Lucas always has the aerial advantage over Zelda though. If he takes her to the air, then yeah, like with many other characters, she has a very tough time. His big head and overall "roundish" geometry make him an easier target for Fair/Bair/Dair than for other small characters (Olimar, Squirtle, Mario, and Peach can be more difficult to sweetspot on because of the "holes" in their thinner models and aerial animations). Uair isn't as **** against him because of his unique Dair, but I still wouldn't count it out.

- Ness isn't any better at DI'ing out of Zelda's smashes than most characters, is he? And besides, you'll either want to kill upward (Utilt kills at slightly lower percents than Usmash) or very low horizontally (Dsmash weee) to force him into PKT2.

- yes, Lucas's Usmash can seriously punish a bad Farore's Wind. I know from too much personal experience

- Zelda's quick ground attacks (Dsmash and Dtilt) outrange Ness's quick tilts, and Nayru's love can slap him away if he's too close. I'm going to agree with you on Lucas's tilt game being decent against Zelda though: he has enough range on his Ftilt and Utilt that Zelda will need some very good spacing to deal with them.

- a short-hopped Fair is a decent counter to Lucas's long-lasting Dsmash, but only if he completely misses in the first place

- I personally believe that NL is a better roll punisher/saver than Lucas's Dsmash, but that could just be me being in love with that attack.

- as I said earlier, Dsmash is a great way to get either of these characters off the edge and force them to actually recover. Ness's recovery allows for at least one Din's Fire hit, though Lucas's is a little more difficult to hit. It's risky, but I've managed to Dair both of them out of PKT2 on a number of occasions (more often than I got hit, but those hits did hurt).

- are you sure Lucas's Ftilt outranges Zelda's Ftilt?

So I'm still not convinced that Lucas has an advantage here (though he's certainly not at a disadvantage), but I'm convinced that Ness does.

 

[Somacruz2]

I found the best way to deal with the earth bounds is to GRAB, GRAB, GRAB. shield grabing these guys is probably the best thing to do, becuase their moves have ending lag, its perfect to get a grab on them after a pk thunder or f-smash. Lucas and Ness have more priority than zelda it seems, but Zelda's throw's can destroy the brats. Also, when recovering, ALWAYS AIM FOR THE EDGE. if you don't hit the ledge and you land on top and the earth bounder is relatively close, you're dead, its that simple, around 80% percent or though because of both f-smashs or Lucas's up or down smash. Lucas' PSI magnet is also something to watch out for, not for the absorbtion but because its a decent kill mobe as well. I wouldn't say that either has an advantage, it really depends on the player and how they take advantage of some of Zelda's Lag. Uair i found works wonders as well.

 

[S2]

The simple fact that Ness/Lucas force you to change your playstyle (anything around Din's) should be a tip-off that your at a disadvantage.

Keep in mind, that matchups are for tournament play. Trust me, while I've beaten plenty of my friend's Lucas/Ness, it's a whole different ballgame when you play one in a tournament. If someone's even playing as Ness or Lucas usually means they're a dedicated player who specializes in being good with that character.

For Zelda you encounter interesting problems, while you outrange them they

-Outprioritize you on a lot of stuff. Which sucks.
-Have vastly better airgames, unless your sweetspotting everything
-They have attacks that come off their body. Keep in mind that not only can your laggy smashes be punished by them going around you, but they can break them via attacks coming off their body (examples are Ness' f-air and running attack).

Zelda's range can be gimped by certain characters that either have attacks that come of their body (so it'll, for example go through the f-smash and all the opponent gets is hit by the small multihit pre-hits, you take much more damage) OR if they are fast and can bypass her range (example is a Snake player can running attack to get through your f-smash at a surprising large range away).


It's not just the lack of Din's that's hurting you. It is the Eathbound children's priority and hitboxes that hurt you. Losing Din's is simply means that you lose any pressuring game if they aren't being overly aggressive, making defense harder since Ness/Lucas can still projectile pressure you and their approaches are better than yours.

Did I mention that Ness can backthrow kill you at 90%? Have fun DIing it because it throws you at nearly a 45 degree angle to the upper corner.

I'm not saying fighting Ness/Lucas is an automatic loss. Hardly. But your at a disadvantage. If you're much better than your opponent, you'll still probably win. But a good Ness/Lucas is going to know his advantages against you and then abuse the ___ out of them.

I'd suggest switching to Sheik, but that's up to you (and only if you're good with her). She's not going to have any better of a time against their attack priority; but you'll benefit from Sheik's speed boost, projectile game, and better edge-guarding potential in that matchup.

That's just me. I always advise both Sheik and Zelda players not to be elitist about either one. It limits your possibilities. Zelda might generally be the better of the two in Brawl, but it doesn't change the fact that each has matchups and situations where they are distinctly the more advantaged character. Not to mention abusing the knockback refresh from switching gives a huge advantage that's not often talked about.

It's not a bad idea in Zelda's bad matchups, to start as Sheik and concentrate purely on racking up tons of damage (Sheik's got 2 very very fast smashes, forward and down, that can punish most attacks... as well as a throw that's got a quicker startup than Zelda) via punishing mistakes then switch to Zelda when the opponent is about 120% or so. The real advantage here is that once you do become Zelda, basically any Smash in any direction will be guranteed to kill, because her moves are all fully charged.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

It's not a bad idea in Zelda's bad matchups, to start as Sheik and concentrate purely on racking up tons of damage (Sheik's got 2 very very fast smashes, forward and down, that can punish most attacks... as well as a throw that's got a quicker startup than Zelda) via punishing mistakes then switch to Zelda when the opponent is about 120% or so. The real advantage here is that once you do become Zelda, basically any Smash in any direction will be guranteed to kill, because her moves are all fully charged.

This is bar none the best guarantee for beating Earthbound characters. Needles keep much better pressure than DF does, and if it's all six of them, that should be enough time for a dash grab, dash attack or hyphen smash. And Zelda has such an easier time killing them with all her moves fresh. Over 100% uair, u-tilt and all smashes should be able to easily kill them.

 

[psike]

I agree with both FirebyrdXX and S2. Sheik can actually have an effect on them in the air where as Zelda is only going to be able to handle Ness (Lucas is out of the question with his nair as well as his dair). Once you consider how easy it is to stunt their recovery after you get them off the ledge, I think Sheik would be the clear choice on taking them.

You could also get their damage up with Sheik and then change to Zelda during a poor PK thunder or while they are recovering to finish them off , because eventually you will get them with at least one of Zelda's smashes or her charge : )

And for the record, 6:4 earthbounders to zelda sounds good to me (unless its a really good Lucas)

 

[Brinzy]

You said that Zelda doesn't really have any long lasting moves besides F-smash and U-smash, and i can't quite let that go. Zelda is the queen of long lasting moves and punishing spot dodges: Fsmash has almost unfair short after lag, upsmash with it's wicked priority, and the move you forgot, Nayru's Love. When used for melee it's a great, long lasting move. You better not miss with it, but its safety is enhanced by a couple invincibility frames and just enough knockback to prevent shield->punish sometimes.
These moves may be particularly unuseful against Lucas, but then i would prefer you say something like: Zelda doesn't have long-lasting moves she can safely throw out in this match up.

Also, i sense a disregard for the alternative to pitting Zelda's aerials against a PK boy's aerials: she can try to airdodge all the way to the ground instead. The game is geared, of course, to prevent players from totally nullifying their opponents opportunity to juggle, but Brawl gives a lot of power to the airdodge, and she might get down safely.

Everything else i read was like, valid

Yeah, I did forget Nayru's Love, and connecting with it, especially at the start of the move, yields amazing effects. Maybe her long-lasting moves are incredible; I just feel that they aren't any more threatening to Lucas as compared to anyone else, and I figured that since Lucas can operate at a distance, he's a little more advantaged. Nevertheless, that's a valid point.

Yes, Zelda could always air-dodge. I sorta assumed that everyone would do this anyway, but yes, that's true.

Well, I guess I could try bringing up some more stuff. You're a good guy, and I think this could be helpful on both sides. Though I do agree now with a lot of your points.

- at least off the very top of the match, I believe a short hopped Din's Fire approach is certainly an option for Zelda. If they have no damage, then there's really no reason to absorb the attack anyway. And even later on, I think if timed properly (Zelda releasing the attack just infront of her, and landing on the ground as she does so) the lag around the Magnet leaves the Earthbounders open to punishment. That being said, if Zelda's too close to Lucas here, he could probably just slap her by releasing the Magnet.

- gotta agree with you wholeheartedly about Ness ****** Zelda in the air. Yeah, all of Zelda's upward attacks outrange and outprioritize his super-fun Dair, but gah it's still scary. Zelda can outrange Ness's Bair, but if he's taking her to the air in the first place, she'll probably get outspaced anyway.

- I don't agree, however, that Lucas always has the aerial advantage over Zelda though. If he takes her to the air, then yeah, like with many other characters, she has a very tough time. His big head and overall "roundish" geometry make him an easier target for Fair/Bair/Dair than for other small characters (Olimar, Squirtle, Mario, and Peach can be more difficult to sweetspot on because of the "holes" in their thinner models and aerial animations). Uair isn't as **** against him because of his unique Dair, but I still wouldn't count it out.

- Ness isn't any better at DI'ing out of Zelda's smashes than most characters, is he? And besides, you'll either want to kill upward (Utilt kills at slightly lower percents than Usmash) or very low horizontally (Dsmash weee) to force him into PKT2.

- yes, Lucas's Usmash can seriously punish a bad Farore's Wind. I know from too much personal experience

- Zelda's quick ground attacks (Dsmash and Dtilt) outrange Ness's quick tilts, and Nayru's love can slap him away if he's too close. I'm going to agree with you on Lucas's tilt game being decent against Zelda though: he has enough range on his Ftilt and Utilt that Zelda will need some very good spacing to deal with them.

- a short-hopped Fair is a decent counter to Lucas's long-lasting Dsmash, but only if he completely misses in the first place

- I personally believe that NL is a better roll punisher/saver than Lucas's Dsmash, but that could just be me being in love with that attack.

- as I said earlier, Dsmash is a great way to get either of these characters off the edge and force them to actually recover. Ness's recovery allows for at least one Din's Fire hit, though Lucas's is a little more difficult to hit. It's risky, but I've managed to Dair both of them out of PKT2 on a number of occasions (more often than I got hit, but those hits did hurt).

- are you sure Lucas's Ftilt outranges Zelda's Ftilt?

So I'm still not convinced that Lucas has an advantage here (though he's certainly not at a disadvantage), but I'm convinced that Ness does.

Thanks; I could learn a lot more from this match-up myself.

- short-hopping Din's Fire is a very good approach for Earthbounders; sometimes, when I'm hit by a quick attack that I could've absorbed, I try to make it a goal to catch the next one, as do most Ness/Lucas players. This could be used to your advantage, especially when Ness/Lucas has little damage and/or Zelda has high damage. Both situations cause players to focus on striking moreso than absorbing Din's, which could be a hit for you.

- in regards to Lucas, yeah, he's not as great in the air as compared to Ness for the most part because his hitboxes in the air are somewhat odd, and actually, Zelda's nair >>> his nair in terms of priority. However, I still believe that his range in the air still helps keep him safe from those kicks of death. I try to not keep Zelda on my side in the air.

- Ness isn't particularly better than most, but he's not a large character, and so he has a slightly better chance at getting out of it. Zelda has to be precise with smaller characters to be sure she hits them with the whole smash. The main argument I had for Ness is that his only attack that can be easily DI'd is his PK Fire; dtilt trips with a very high success rate as % goes up, and it's just as hard to DI out of that as it is to DI out of Zelda's dtilt. I suppose my main idea there was that even if Zelda gets a clean shot at the opponent, it could be ruined by a minor misplacement, and as a Zelda player in Melee, this is all too frustrating to me.

- Ness isn't truly exceptional on the ground vs. Zelda, as Lucas isn't truly exceptional against her in the air. Zelda probably has the advantage on the ground because of those killer down attacks. I swear, her Dsmash annoys me more than everyone else's... so ok, I'm willing to say that Zelda does fare better on the ground vs. him because of the many keep-away options she has.

- I think sh-fair vs. Lucas Dsmash takes some serious skill to pull off, considering for most people, it's an instinct to get away from blasts of energy, so making it over for the sh-fair might be a bit tricky, at least from what I can see. Of course, you don't want to miss it, and if you're not careful, you could fall into the smash. If it works for you, that's awesome; the best I could do is throw a Din's.

- yeah, NL is a better punisher for rolling, but too bad Lucas doesn't have that, so I suggested Dsmash for him.

- the key here is definitely to get them at a point where they need to PKT to make it back, which is very possible with Zelda. It is also imperative to be sure that they can't go straight up and still land on the stage; while this could get them punished, it gives the Earthbounders an option to shoot for the ledge or for the stage.

- Finally, I'm not totally sure if Lucas's f-tilt outranges Zelda's. I am sure, however, that it outranges her down and up attacks, and it outspeeds her side attacks. It's one of my favorite tilts in the game.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

I don't see how it's worth it to fair Lucas during his d-smash at all. Too risk. It's way easier to simply shorthop over him and land a bair instead. You should be easier to get the sweetspot off too. Think about it.

 

[Veng]

Dins fire is a part of Zeldas game, she needs it and it completes her.

I can tell you that Lucas/Ness's ( I main them ) love Dins fire when we PSi it.

But as a Lucas/Ness main I absolutely hate it when she approaches me, her grabs into combos are horrible.

 

[Brinzy]

lol, if Zelda gives you problems with her approaching, maybe there's another bigger factor involved...

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Dsmash will be your best friend as Zelda in this matchup since your gonna have to clearout the two of them quite a bit, just like NL; just dont miss or become too predictable.

I don't see how it's worth it to fair Lucas during his d-smash at all. Too risk. It's way easier to simply shorthop over him and land a bair instead. You should be easier to get the sweetspot off too. Think about it.

I agree on the risk factor, but the reward is worth it. Try to catch him on the 3rd and final blast because if you try to go around the back, you may get caught by the back hitboxes, or he may be finishing his smash and can avoid it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dins fire is a part of Zeldas game, she needs it and it completes her.

I can tell you that Lucas/Ness's ( I main them ) love Dins fire when we PSi it.

But as a Lucas/Ness main I absolutely hate it when she approaches me, her grabs into combos are horrible.

<- to the whole post

 

[Veng]

*shoots self*

i dont now crap about brawl anyways.. and i suck.. and fail..

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

*shoots self*

i dont now crap about brawl anyways.. and i suck.. and fail..

I'm sorry for laughing but, seriosuly, you'll need to change your point of view here:

Zelda is so much more than Din's fire.

and... zelda's approach is average at best.

 

[popsofctown]

aww, quit being so mean you're making veng cry.

Veng if you practice you can get better at the game.

 

[Ztarfish]

Underestimating DF's importance is like underestimating the damage done when shooting yourself in the foot. Irregardless DF is far from useless against Ness and Lucas as it's not like they'll spend the whole **** match Psi Magneting.

Anyway I don't have much to add as Succesor of Raphael covered all the points I would think to bring up

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

...Irregardless...

AAAAAHHHH!!!! the pain... it burns

 

[Ztarfish]

1. It's a word I even looked it up
2. I like the way it sounds
3. Shut up

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

Din's Fire has nothing to do with Ness and Lucas matchups. So you can't spam it... big deal!!! If that's all someone is crying over about they need to stop playing Zelda NOW! or start learning some new moves rather than Side B.

The problem with this matchup... not so much Ness, but rather Lucas is the larger problem at hand. Ness is easy to gimp and deal with because of lack of range, poor recovery, and easy gimping. Lucas on the other hand has significantly greater range and pretty decent power. Zelda, obviously can't camp because of psi magnet. Then there's the issue of combating close range. Lucas is short like Ness so landing the kick is already hard as a finisher. Next problem is Lucas has those ridiculous smashes with ridiculous hitboxes (stupid downsmash hits slightly behind him too. I personally hate this matchup along with Toon Link because of range issue and being able to kill. Racking up damage is easy, but it's hard to land the down smash. Forward smash and up smash are easy, but they take a little too long to kill.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

1. It's a word I even looked it up
2. I like the way it sounds
3. Shut up

1) but it's a nonstandard word... AKA... it's not in the english dictionary (or if it is, it comes with an astericks saying it's not a real word)
2) I hate the way it sounds... hence the burning.
3) make me