Ness and Lucas aren't screwed now.

[thesage]

EDIT: so it turns out only Marth and PT can do this to Ness and only Marth can do this to Lucas.

I had hesitations about posting this here as I don't want this to become too well known, but I want this debate to start now.

Ness and Lucas can be cg'd infinitely by some other characters due to their laggy "get out of a grab" animation. Lucas doesn't have as much of a problem as Ness but it's still hella bad.

Cort's much more informative explanation:

Very many characters can simply grab you, continuously grab attack (this forces you to break out in front of them and makes jumping out after being grabbed impossible), and thanks to faulty programming, Lucas and Ness' animations after leaving a grab are so long it allows a person to grab you again. This works with MANY characters vs both Lucas and Ness.

It also allows said characters (plus more, including ones that can't regrab you after) to pull off quick Smash attacks or tilts to kill you after you break out.

This won't be banned from tournaments. This will just make Lucas and Ness useless in them.

Just a heads up (unless ofcourse you want to anyway and get easily and horribly beaten by someone that just presses grab 3 times/second...)

This is a list of what characters can do this:

All tests were performed on Ness, by the way.

MARIO: Ftilt
Not much to see here. An Ftilt to the face isn't so bad at all, especially coming from Mario. His Fsmash and Dsmash are too slow and don't reach far enough to hit you.
Verdict: safe

DK: infinite
DK has an infinite with his cargo hold.
Verdict: hopeless

Link/Toon Link: down smash
Link and Toon Link's grabs are too slow for them to get you again before you can spot dodge. The best they can do is hit with a down smash. It's a strong KO move, so it's still not very nice, but you won't be losing matches solely because of this.
Verdict: safe

Samus: dtilt
Same deal as the Links, except with down tilt instead. It's a hefty attack for Samus, but once again, not too bad either.
Verdict: safe

Zero Suit Samus: ftilt
Not bad at all, really
Verdioct: safe

Kirby/Jigglypuff: nothing
You slide very far away from Kirby and Jigglypuff for some reason. They can't run and grab you again fast enough to get a chain grab going either, and can't reach you with any attacks.
Verdict: safe

Fox: running grab, up smash
Fox can grab you again after the break-out, and even worse, he can lead into an up smash when it's time to KO, making for hideous damage and early KOs from a single grab. Try to stay on platforms and avoid Final Destination if you can.
Verdict: unsafe

Pikachu: running grab, ftilt
Hey, at least he can't combo into up smash, right? What's more, Pikachu slides very far when he does a running grab, meaning you'll reach the edge of the stage in record time. One of the better match ups.
Verdict: safe

Marth: infinate
Broken nonsense.
Verdict: hopeless

Game & Watch: oil panic
How ironic...
Verdict: safe

Luigi: nothing
Lucky his Fsmash is too slow to combo from a break.
Verdict: safe

Diddy: running grab, dtilt
same boat as Pikachu, but doesn't slide as far.
Verdict: safe

Zelda: jump break
For some reason, it's easy to jump break Zelda's grab. However, if you don't jump break, she can follow up with an Ftilt, which isn't TOO deadly.
Verdict: safe

Shiek: running grab, down smash
Dammit, even in Brawl, Sheik can still chain grab Ness. Good thing she can't KO too well with her down smash...
Verdict: risky

Pit: Fsmash
Not too bad, not too good either since it happens to be his best KO move.
Verdict: risky

Metaknight: running grab, ftilt, downsmash
He slides very far when he grabs from a run, but he can follow up with either a very damaging attack, or one of his best KO moves. He can even attempt to trip you with Dtilt if he wants. Yuck...
Verdict: risky

Falco: running up smash (or hit cancel)
Eww...but still, at least he can't chain grab with this.
Verdict: risky

Charizard: infinite
Curses on that long neck of yours, Charizard!
Verdict: hopeless

Squirtle: infinite (almost)
Squirtle can just take half a step forwards and grab you again because of his abnormally good grab range, coupled by the fact that he moves forward a bit in his shell when you break out of his grasp.
Verdict: hopeless

Ivysaur: infinite
Just keep away from Pokemon Trainer...really.
Verdict: hopeless

Ike: AAA combo
Not that bad at all.
Verdict: safe

Snake: infinite
broken ****e. Leads into Ftilt when he's done with you.
Verdict: hopeless

Peach: running grab, Ftilt
Same kind of deal as Diddy Kong. Bearable, but still kind of unfair. At least it's not a magic KO move.
Verdict: safe

Yoshi: jump break
Yoshi's grab always has a jump break out. Probably one of the safest characters to fight as Ness/Lucas. Too bad he's considered low tier and nobody plays him. -_-
Verdict: safe

Ganon: jump break
I may need to test this more, but it seems quite easy to jump break out of Ganon's grab. For now, I'll say this is safe.
Verdict: safe

Ice Climbers: FFFFFFFFF!
FFFFFFFF!
Verdict: FFFFFPFFF!

Dedede: nothing (possibly down tilt)
I was very surprised by this too. For some reason, Dedede's grab DOESN'T reach Ness after he breaks out of the hold...and a running grab is too slow. It's strange, but try as I might, I just couldn't get Dedede to grab Ness during the helpless animation.
Verdict: safe (however, you still have his other chain grab to contend with).

Wolf: down smash
his best KO move, but still, not a chain grab.
Verdict: safe

Lucario: Ftilt
I wouldn't expect any less from the honorable Lucario. Always ready to fight fair and square, for the sake of a good match.
Verdict: safe

Ness: running grab
Slides a lot. Ness dittoes just got way more boring. It'll hit the edge soon enough, but back throw is a solid KO move.
Verdict: safe

Sonic: running grab, ftilt
Sonic's running grab has hardly any slide at all, making this almost an infinite. Either way, you'll take a lot of damage before he reaches the edge.
Verdict: unsafe

Bowser: infinite (almost.)
Bowser has next to NO slide at all on his running grab, making this pretty much an infinite. Seeing as he can then belt you with Ftilt, which is a pretty good KO move, I'd say this is a bleak match up.
Verdict: hopeless

Wario: infinite (almost)
Wario is exactly the same as squirtle in that he just needs to take a half-step and he can catch you with a standing grab, making this another almost-infinite. He can't combo into anything from it, but still, it's Wario. It's not like he's Sonic and has difficult KO moves or anything.
Verdict: hopeless

Olimar: Fsmash, standing grab if his previous grab was a running grab.
Olimar's weird in that he can grab you twice if his first grab was a running grab. He can't chain grab you, luckily enough, but he can hit you with his Fsmash, which hurts like heck. Either way, Olimar is excellent at grabbing, so this will be a troublesome match up no matter how you view it.
Verdict: unsafe

ROB: running grab, Ftilt, Dtilt
He sees to slide a fair bit on his running grab, but not as much as Pikachu. His follow-ups aren't too bad either. Dtilt can trip you though.
Verdict: safe

Falcon: Dtilt
The good Captain is too manly to use cheese tactics like this.
Verdict: safe

Lucas: infinite
Well gosh darn. Lucas dittoes just got even more boring than Ness dittoes. Whoever gets the first grab wins, and Lucas now has a glaring advantage over Ness. Bravo Sakurai, I hope you're pleased with yourself...
Verdict: hopeless.

>:-(

*goes back to making his new Lucario animated banner.*

By the way, I thought I'd add that the timing to get a perfect running grab for most of the characters who can chain throw this way is actually VERY strict. If you press Z even just a fraction of a second too late after starting the dash, you'll give Ness or Lucas a chance to spot dodge. NO ROLLING. Spot dodge is the fastest form of evasion available for them in this situation.

Thank you Nessbounder for your research.

Vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po

What is the worst is that three of the most overused characters in brawl right now (MK, Marth, and Snake) are able to do this. Ness was actually decent against MK, Lucas against Marth, and I'm not sure about the Snake matchup yet.

It also is only usable against Ness and Lucas. So while many characters are able to do this, they are the only ones affected by this.

These characters are now countered by characters they used to counter (Sonic, Bowser, DK).

So do you think it should be banned? Should we let destroy two otherwise decent characters die competitively from a single technique? Discuss...

Good posts:

Pro-Ban:



Anti-Ban:

 

[bajisci]

well this is extremely dissapointing as i loved ness and lucas as characters, but am i understanding u jsut grab and punch em until they break out and characters can just grab again, kind of like dedede chain grabbing dk with his down throw?

 

[Fletch]

I don't know what to say; on one hand, this is completely brutal and eliminates two very different characters from Brawl, but how exactly do you go about banning this tactic? Can you really "force" players to not regrab Ness/Lucas? If we ban this tactic, where do we then draw the line from now on? Ban the Ice Climbers altogether or ban Dedede's chain throw? As much as this sucks, it's really hard to treat this different than anyone else's chain throw, and as much as it pains me to say it, I do not think it should be banned.

Don't get grabbed I guess?

 

[dr0go]

do you even know you can get out while jumping?There are frames in which lucas or ness will get out while jumping.But the timing is very especific .this does not make them useless,it just makes them useless against people who do not know how to get out of these grabs.BTW even a level 9 CPU can get out of these grabs and if you dont believe me try it.you should research more before you go claiming that some characters are useless.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

If the Wobbles infinite grab was legal in Melee, this is probably gonna be legal too

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

do you even know you can get out while jumping?There are frames in which lucas or ness will get out while jumping.But the timing is very especific .this does not make them useless,it just makes them useless against people who do not know how to get out of these grabs.BTW even a level 9 CPU can get out of these grabs and if you dont believe me try it.you should research more before you go claiming that some characters are useless.

Already been tested and proven incorrect. You cannot jump escape if the opponent has a grab attack that can be done fast enough to keep you in a constant state of hit-stun. And that's all of the ones who can pull an infinite.

 

[Sean²]

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Needs to be banned. At least the really, really broken ones like Marth's do. Its not the same as a regular chaingrab, as it is endless and game breaking. Falco and Dedede's normal chaingrabs stop at the edge of the stage. Doesn't matter if its part of the game or if you're "playing to win." Allowing the rendering of 2 perfectly good characters practically useless is bull.

I don't care how much of a scrub (such a stupid ****ing term) this makes me, but this, along with every other infinite, is cheap.

 

[dr0go]

i just tested what you said it in training mode with DK and marth the cpu got out while jumping and before i could grab him again he did a Fair just after the hitstun ended.His Fair has enough range to hit you so he can get .dont know about lucas.

TRY DOING IT AGAINST A LEVEL 9 CPU AND THEY GET OUT.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

question:

how many people that got big boosts from this new CG discovery Vs. Ness or lucas were good against them already.... i.e. does it really change match ups besides sonic?

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

i just tested what you said it in training mode with DK and marth the cpu got out while jumping and before i could grab him again he did a Fair just after the hitstun ended.His Fair has enough range to hit you so he can get .dont know about lucas.

Did you try it at 1/4 the speed?

Computer players also have inhuman reflexes that you could not possibly perform in real life. Also, stop using DK and use Snake/Marth. The effect is much more pronounced.

 

[dr0go]

i did use marth,i said so in my post.and what i just found means the theory that they can never get out is false even if you need very good reflexes to get out.

 

[orintemple]

If the Wobbles infinite grab was legal in Melee, this is probably gonna be legal too

As far as I know Wobbling WAS banned at most tourneys, wasn't it?

In any case, I say this is only banned if other infinites are banned. I like seeing infinites banned personally, although this game could use a boost in depth. Learning to avoid grabs is a very big part of mindgames and could serve the game well if we all must learn to avoid them. On the other hand this is only usable on two characters, so only the players of those characters would need to learn to avoid this, which is an unfair disadvantage on their part. Sure they could not play Ness or Lucas, but it isn't fair to force people to switch mains if they are with the one they want.

I guess I have to go with yes, but just because of the circumstances of only 2 characters being affected unfairly.

 

[gnuf]

nice find, will try this out. if it works, it will help me against ness =]

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

i did use marth,i said so in my post.and what i just found means the theory that they can never get out is false even if you need very good reflexes to get out.

It's not just a matter of good reflexes though. I don't know what you were doing wrong, but if you press that button fast enough, there isn't any gap in the hit stun for Ness or Lucas to jump break at all.

The computer player does seem to jump break oddly, but how practical is that for a human? No matter how I try, I haven't been able to jump break while Ness was in hit-stun. If I could slow down the game even more, it might be possible, but outside using a stopwatch item, I doubt you could get it slow enough to test this properly in training mode.

Even then, finding the exact frame and pressing the button right on that is very impractical.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

Super Champ Combo, and Pounds 2&3 allowed wobbling and those were major tournaments. I don't think it should be banned since Wobbling appeared game breaking to many.

 

[Fletch]

As far as I know Wobbling WAS banned at most tourneys, wasn't it?

It was banned from some, but general consensus for the most recent tournaments was that it was allowed.

 

[Mokai]

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Needs to be banned. At least the really, really broken ones like Marth's do. Its not the same as a regular chaingrab, as it is endless and game breaking. Falco and Dedede's normal chaingrabs stop at the edge of the stage. Doesn't matter if its part of the game or if you're "playing to win." Allowing the rendering of 2 perfectly good characters practically useless is bull.

I don't care how much of a scrub (such a stupid ****ing term) this makes me, but this, along with every other infinite, is cheap.

I like the way this person thinks. I was preparing a post of my own, but now I don't have to since someone else more or less said it for me. Ditto.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

question:

how many people that got big boosts from this new CG discovery Vs. Ness or lucas were good against them already.... i.e. does it really change match ups besides sonic?

maybe PT or bowser?

 

[orintemple]

Super Champ Combo, and Pounds 2&3 allowed wobbling and those were major tournaments. I don't think it should be banned since Wobbling appeared game breaking to many.

Wow, I honestly would not have expected that. Those are some big time tourneys too, shows how much I know about the pro scene's specifics. I know there were tourneys that banned it, but maybe that was for the sake of the mid level players who probably made up the majority of the tourneys. Most people could do it but weren't good enough to avoid grabs well. Not that I am saying that is a good excuse, just what I assume.

Also, I think this is different from Wobbling, since it singles out 2 characters as opposed to being done to all. Wobbling made it so Melee players had to get good at avoiding grabs, but this only makes it so Ness and Lucas player HAVE to learn to avoid getting grabbed at all costs. I realize that EVERYONE should learn to avoid grabs anyway, but it just seems unfair that it is absolutely vital for only 2 characters. Of course, of this turns out to be not nearly as big a deal as it seems, then an unban is always fine.

 

[Fletch]

Also, I think this is different from Wobbling, since it singles out 2 characters as opposed to being done to all. Wobbling made it so Melee players had to get good at avoiding grabs, but this only makes it so Ness and Lucas player HAVE to learn to avoid getting grabbed at all costs. I realize that EVERYONE should learn to avoid grabs anyway, but it just seems unfair that it is absolutely vital for only 2 characters. Of course, of this turns out to be not nearly as big a deal as it seems, then an unban is always fine.

What about Dedede's chain grab then? That singles out specific characters.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

What about Dedede's chain grab then? That singles out specific characters.

Not an infinite, takes skills to do, etc.

What's more, it's specific to Dedede. The opponent knows what they're up against when they fight against a Dedede player. With Ness and Lucas, it's almost the entire cast who can use this to their advantage.

 

[dr0go]

i just tried getting out of my friends chaingrab. ITS REALLY HARD.i could only get out 1 out of 30 attempts.
if somebody wants to use lucas or ness they are going to have a hard time either learning this or learning to use another character.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

i just tried getting out of my friends chaingrab. ITS REALLY HARD.i could only get out 1 out of 30 attempts.
if somebody wants to use lucas or ness they are going to have a hard time either learning this or learning to use another character.

See what I mean? It's almost impossible for a human to get out of it.

 

[kenja0]

Instead of banning the problem itself, just ban the characters who can do it.
Hehehe

 

[MidniteBlaze]

Don't get grabbed?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Instead of banning the problem itself, just ban the characters who can do it.
Hehehe

That's basicially half the roster......

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Instead of banning the problem itself, just ban the characters who can do it.
Hehehe

HURR HURR HURR.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Sadly, this isn't the type of thing that can be banned. Ness/Lucas players will just have to cope with this.

 

[Tetsuro]

It really is a shame that there was such a huge oversight like this in the game. Why on earth would they have reason to give Ness and Lucas so much lag out of their escape? Unless Sakurai secretly hates the Mother series!

In all seriousness though, this is a huge disappointment for myself and many others. In my opinion this should be banned, though it probably won't be.

 

[dr0go]

See what I mean? It's almost impossible for a human to get out of it.

you were right .I think that ness/lucas players will have to learn this to prefection as to get it right every time.personally i think that not many people will be able to get it right .

 

[dr0go]

See what I mean? It's almost impossible for a human to get out of it.

you were right.personally i think not many will learn how to get out every time.those people will surely be a very very rare sight.

 

[AdmantNESS]

Someone posted a video:

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4425714&postcount=83

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po

 

[Fletch]

Not an infinite, takes skills to do, etc.

What's more, it's specific to Dedede. The opponent knows what they're up against when they fight against a Dedede player. With Ness and Lucas, it's almost the entire cast who can use this to their advantage.

I was under the impression that Dedede could infinite some characters with his standing chain grab (around 5 or so I want to say), but I get your point, was simply pointing something out to the other poster.

 

[Johnknight1]

Well, for the really bad ones, we can ban them, like we did the IC infinite. Or we could at least limit them to like 3 or something (like the De3 chain grab is being limited to 3 grabs in many tournaments). Ness and Lucas were well off without this (I was thinking they were high or top tier material, in all honesty),, so this can actually balance them out. Now to further balance Snake, Toon Link, Falco, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Marth, and Fox...

Defiintely another point for Heavy Brawl! >_>

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I think the infinite (where many characters don't even have to move to regrab) should be banned. Using this bit of knowledge to your advantage to combo into jabs, tilts, or smashes shouldn't be banned because it's unenforceable. The infinite requires very little skill to pull off. But comboing with the grab is annoying but you should know which characters can do it now.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Well, for the really bad ones, we can ban them, like we did the IC infinite. Or we could at least limit them to like 3 or something (like the De3 chain grab is being limited to 3 grabs in many tournaments). Ness and Lucas were well off without this (I was thinking they were high or top tier material, in all honesty),, so this can actually balance them out. Now to further balance Snake, Toon Link, Falco, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Marth, and Fox...

Defiintely another point for Heavy Brawl! >_>

I don't see why it wouldn't work in Heavy Brawl...

What's more, Heavy Brawl just limits the cast even more, since all characters with multiple jumps become useless.

 

[Shibby]

This is terrible because it makes two tournament worthy characters useless ...

I feel in love with Lucas and now I can be chain-grabbed by just about everyone not because I can't DI or spot-dodge them, but because my character has a "extended lag animation frame post grab" ...

 

[Ulevo]

Something seems odd about this... I know Marth can perform the Release Grab on Ness and Lucas, but the other characters I am not so sure of. I'll test this tomorrow.

And for those of you stating that CPUs have better reaction time then humans, don't kid yourself. There is a reason why I can Chain Grab a lvl 9 Bowser into infinity with Wario's Down Throw while it will never work on a Human.

 

[Man_With_Thooo]

Yes, this should DEFINITELY be banned. Sure, the IC's wobbling wasn't banned in many major tournaments, but only IC was able to do that and it worked with pretty much the entire cast. This, however, only works on two perfectly good characters and can be done with most of the cast. It's unfair how Ness and Lucas mains have to put a lot of extra effort into avoiding CGs which are infinites and barely take any skill to do. We just have to ban the use of release grabs against the mother boys. If not, we could simply ban the usage of a release grab right after another previous release grab.

 

[munkus beaver]

See what I mean? It's almost impossible for a human to get out of it.

QED

By admitting that it is capable for a human to get out of, you admit that the technique has a counter.