Swampy948
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 17, 2014
- Messages
- 60
I'll try to remember that, lol.
-
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Neon's Match-up Discussion
- Thread starter NeonApophis
- Start date
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
how did you not mention dair
prem
Smash Apprentice
he already mentioned dair and i assumed that was obvious
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Get rekt scrub
Aerial magnet -> DJC sweetspot Fair is usually enough to knock the opponent back and be out of range from CC counter attacks
I usually do magnet -> SH Nair. If they want to CC that whole thing, I let them take that 20-some percent damage.
Aerial magnet -> DJC sweetspot Fair is usually enough to knock the opponent back and be out of range from CC counter attacks
I usually do magnet -> SH Nair. If they want to CC that whole thing, I let them take that 20-some percent damage.
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
u rite
Swampy948
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 17, 2014
- Messages
- 60
Something I've started doing as a combo starter is short hop magnet>djc nair>dair. I'd imagine that could do something about cc, or would there be too much time between the nair and dair for them to punish?
prem
Smash Apprentice
nair can be cced, if they are going to cc just do mag dair into nair or dair its better
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
^
It's good if the opponent gets flustered and tries to do some option after magnet and you can catch them ~8 frames later with Dair. At that point, you might as well use Fair or a tilt since Dair will only lead to a tech chase and the hitbox is tiny as it is.
% is a also a factor. If they CC shield then you can do whatever you want from there.
The last thing to consider is what option the opponent chooses to CC counter attack with. If they do a slower move like Fsmash, you can DJC Nair -> Shield -> punish OoS. If they do faster moves with lower range like shine, DJC Nair -> fade back and avoid the hitbox. In other cases like Sheik's Dsmash which can't be punished OoS by Lucas, DJC Nair -> Dtilt generally beats out Sheik's Dsmash.
It's good if the opponent gets flustered and tries to do some option after magnet and you can catch them ~8 frames later with Dair. At that point, you might as well use Fair or a tilt since Dair will only lead to a tech chase and the hitbox is tiny as it is.
% is a also a factor. If they CC shield then you can do whatever you want from there.
The last thing to consider is what option the opponent chooses to CC counter attack with. If they do a slower move like Fsmash, you can DJC Nair -> Shield -> punish OoS. If they do faster moves with lower range like shine, DJC Nair -> fade back and avoid the hitbox. In other cases like Sheik's Dsmash which can't be punished OoS by Lucas, DJC Nair -> Dtilt generally beats out Sheik's Dsmash.
MelloGrunty
Smash Rookie
i wanted to make a separate thread about spacies, but i figure it works well enough in here. i've been trying to put together some simple enough 0-to-deaths on spacies (and some heavyweights) and wanted your guys' input on it, and was wondering if any of you had some gfy's of spacy 0-to-deaths or advice on optimization.
from 0-36/39% depending on if you pummel on the third throw or not, it's upthrow chaingrabs obviously. from there, up-air/sour up-tilt regrab downthrows which should work until about 60-70% if practiced enough. the hole i'm having troubles filling is from 70-90%, because via labbing i recently figured out that against spacies, you can get magnet -> wd back -> grab, and it's practically unavoidable. on fox, this starts working at about 76%, and on wolf and falco it starts working at about 85-90%. from there, they can DI the downthrow, but if they don't, the up-smash is free.
things i'm concerned about include that 70-90% margin, as well as making the sections individually unique enough that they won't respond to the downthrow and will DI it incorrectly. what do you guys think? any advice? is thinking about all this practically useless since i'll only get to counterpick FD on spacies against scrubs?
from 0-36/39% depending on if you pummel on the third throw or not, it's upthrow chaingrabs obviously. from there, up-air/sour up-tilt regrab downthrows which should work until about 60-70% if practiced enough. the hole i'm having troubles filling is from 70-90%, because via labbing i recently figured out that against spacies, you can get magnet -> wd back -> grab, and it's practically unavoidable. on fox, this starts working at about 76%, and on wolf and falco it starts working at about 85-90%. from there, they can DI the downthrow, but if they don't, the up-smash is free.
things i'm concerned about include that 70-90% margin, as well as making the sections individually unique enough that they won't respond to the downthrow and will DI it incorrectly. what do you guys think? any advice? is thinking about all this practically useless since i'll only get to counterpick FD on spacies against scrubs?
KrozoMagnus
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2014
- Messages
- 24
Does anyone have any tips on fighting G&W. His fair is so big and up air juggles are a pain. And the landing dair and bair hitboxes, ehh.
I also need to get much better at shield pressure. What's the best way to practice this?
I also need to get much better at shield pressure. What's the best way to practice this?
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I'll let my gameplay speak for the most part. Study how I play neutral and combo G&W as well as when I go for kills early.
Delta vs XYK (ignore the ****ty commentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENmObPNRfuo
Delta vs Gato (running TBH5 event and having 5hrs of sleep johns)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYwfX2Vw7X0
==
Here's a written part if you like words more than visuals:
SDI everything left / right accordingly and ASDI down / CC aerials at low % (roughly 50% for Lucas).
G&W has good moves that can space around Lucas and out-prioritize us, but we have the damage and speed to counteract his moveset, similar to how Fox/Lucas fight against Marth.
PKF stops G&W's horizontal movement and is typically only countered by bucket (which does little damage back to us) and Dtilt. You can bait bad Fairs with a PKF and throw off G&W's SHFFL timing, in some cases making him miss the L-cancel altogether.
Don't contest his Dair / Bair when it hits your shield. Wait for the move to finish and see if G&W likes to jab, Dtilt, grab, or do another aerial. If they do an aerial Dair/Fair on shield, by all means punish the hell out of it. Otherwise, patience is key here. You shouldn't be putting yourself in a position to get hit by Dair [on shield] in the first place- he's too slow for that
Avoid RAR Bair (highly underused G&W tech but still is a thing I see being used in their metagame in the near future)
Space around bacon and use Fair to attack thru it. Running up -> shield bacon or in general pressuring G&W to not throw out bacon is also a good counter.
Learn which way they like to throw you. If they want to capitalize on your DI holding in when you're near the ledge, just hold away and accept the ledge guard setup instead of Nair killing for free at ~75-90%. If G&W Dthrows, have a tech option ready (learn the throw timings)
Delta vs XYK (ignore the ****ty commentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENmObPNRfuo
Delta vs Gato (running TBH5 event and having 5hrs of sleep johns)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYwfX2Vw7X0
==
Here's a written part if you like words more than visuals:
SDI everything left / right accordingly and ASDI down / CC aerials at low % (roughly 50% for Lucas).
G&W has good moves that can space around Lucas and out-prioritize us, but we have the damage and speed to counteract his moveset, similar to how Fox/Lucas fight against Marth.
PKF stops G&W's horizontal movement and is typically only countered by bucket (which does little damage back to us) and Dtilt. You can bait bad Fairs with a PKF and throw off G&W's SHFFL timing, in some cases making him miss the L-cancel altogether.
Don't contest his Dair / Bair when it hits your shield. Wait for the move to finish and see if G&W likes to jab, Dtilt, grab, or do another aerial. If they do an aerial Dair/Fair on shield, by all means punish the hell out of it. Otherwise, patience is key here. You shouldn't be putting yourself in a position to get hit by Dair [on shield] in the first place- he's too slow for that
Avoid RAR Bair (highly underused G&W tech but still is a thing I see being used in their metagame in the near future)
Space around bacon and use Fair to attack thru it. Running up -> shield bacon or in general pressuring G&W to not throw out bacon is also a good counter.
Learn which way they like to throw you. If they want to capitalize on your DI holding in when you're near the ledge, just hold away and accept the ledge guard setup instead of Nair killing for free at ~75-90%. If G&W Dthrows, have a tech option ready (learn the throw timings)
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KrozoMagnus
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2014
- Messages
- 24
Awesome! Thank you for the videos and the write up!
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I also think Neon played the MU really well in this set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V3qtE71ND8
and Neon just being Neon here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncWtnOTZRl8
and Neon just being Neon here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncWtnOTZRl8
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2012
- Messages
- 3,056
- Switch FC
- SW-6444-7862-9014
Any advice against Zelda?
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Dash dance until she does something dumb. Play the MU lame bc **** zelda and her moves killing us at 80-100. Even tho we do this to everybody else in the cast, I still hate dying to her from Fsmash or lightning kicks. PKF isn't that good honestly. Just play patiently and space yourself well
Zelda sucks if you avoid her stuff and get Upsmash kills around 70-85 or basically anything else to kill her below 120.
Zelda sucks if you avoid her stuff and get Upsmash kills around 70-85 or basically anything else to kill her below 120.
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
Will be updating my MU chart later because opinions change n stuff. There's also stuff that I didn't take into account for some MUs and honestly the last two were rushed to hell and back anyway.
The Brazilian Afro
Smash Cadet
I'm a Peach main and I was wondering how is the MU from Lucas's side. From what I saw here, some say that Lucas has a decent (+2) advantage, but from my own experience and from the videos I saw, this MU is quite even. How do you think it goes in 3.6/3.6.1
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I think Lucas players play the MU poorly since there's so few Peaches out there to play, but so many aggressive characters out there, which makes it easier for Peach to do well against lesser experienced Lucas players. In the current meta, I'd say the MU is even, but the MU should be +1 or +2 Lucas' favor.
I explained some things about the MU earlier but I'll create a new post about my thoughts on Peach v Lucas here. Overall, the MU is rough for Peach even if both players execute correctly.
Neutral
Easily Lucas' favor. PKF spaces out Peach well and if she starts floating above the PKF, Lucas can easily catch her out of a float with his faster ground speed & aerial mobility. Reminiscent of Fox v Peach, Lucas can approach with safe aerials. Dair can't be CC'd and crossup Fair/Nair can't be CC Dsmashed. Very difficult to punish if Lucas' spacing is on point since crossup aerial -> turnaround magnet / Ftilt / dash away can stop Peach from doing most anything.
Turnips bounce off PKF which is cool since it allows Peach to regrab them out of the air and catch / AGT them. Depending when she throws the turnip and when Lucas shoots a PKF, she can either be frame positive or be at a disadvantage. If she throws the initial turnip when Lucas' PKF is already out, Lucas can punish her for going to grab the turnip, whereas throwing the turnip just as Lucas goes to shoot a PKF leads to Peach having the advantage.
Peach's approach options are bad and playing a heavy ground game leads to getting grabbed or dealing with PKF / crossup aerials. She has to play this weird sort of fade back float & aerial game she does vs Fox. Only thing is that Lucas can make his approaches safer by doing run up -> DJC back -> aerial or poaching with run up magnet -> WD back
Punish game
Lucas' weight & fall speed is nice to chain aerials into each other or get aerial -> grab type followups. She doesn't have many hard punishes that she does vs spacies, but still gets a few hit conversions that can rack up some solid damage. Her best bet is to force tech chases with down throw and punish Lucas' terrible tech frame data.
Against his recovery, use turnips to cover tether but stay away from the ledge if you can't punish in time. Force him to stay near the ledge and maintain stage control rather than attempt to go offstage / near the ledge and whiff a move. His UpB is easy to punish with turnips / any aerial.
Vs Peach, Lucas has an insane punish game. His Dair can combo into itself, Uair/Fair chain into each other until Lucas gets a sweetspot Fair/Bair finisher, his downthrow followups work roughly until Uthrow kills (~120-130 on most stages), and Upsmash / OU upsmash kill around 60-80% if Lucas can land it. Unlike other characters, Lucas' Dair allows him to safely convert into the strongest kill move in the game, whereas a Fox / Marth would have to find an opening for their smash attack. Upsmash & Uthrow are the main reasons that make this MU so polarizing with their guaranteed kill potential.
Lucas has a difficult time dealing with float and for the most part has to make soft reads on where she'll be, then try to punish with a Uair below her or a rising Bair/Fair.
In this MU, if either player gets forced to the ledge, it should be hell trying to get off and recover center stage. Both characters zone each other out super hard near the ledge
I explained some things about the MU earlier but I'll create a new post about my thoughts on Peach v Lucas here. Overall, the MU is rough for Peach even if both players execute correctly.
Neutral
Easily Lucas' favor. PKF spaces out Peach well and if she starts floating above the PKF, Lucas can easily catch her out of a float with his faster ground speed & aerial mobility. Reminiscent of Fox v Peach, Lucas can approach with safe aerials. Dair can't be CC'd and crossup Fair/Nair can't be CC Dsmashed. Very difficult to punish if Lucas' spacing is on point since crossup aerial -> turnaround magnet / Ftilt / dash away can stop Peach from doing most anything.
Turnips bounce off PKF which is cool since it allows Peach to regrab them out of the air and catch / AGT them. Depending when she throws the turnip and when Lucas shoots a PKF, she can either be frame positive or be at a disadvantage. If she throws the initial turnip when Lucas' PKF is already out, Lucas can punish her for going to grab the turnip, whereas throwing the turnip just as Lucas goes to shoot a PKF leads to Peach having the advantage.
Peach's approach options are bad and playing a heavy ground game leads to getting grabbed or dealing with PKF / crossup aerials. She has to play this weird sort of fade back float & aerial game she does vs Fox. Only thing is that Lucas can make his approaches safer by doing run up -> DJC back -> aerial or poaching with run up magnet -> WD back
Punish game
Lucas' weight & fall speed is nice to chain aerials into each other or get aerial -> grab type followups. She doesn't have many hard punishes that she does vs spacies, but still gets a few hit conversions that can rack up some solid damage. Her best bet is to force tech chases with down throw and punish Lucas' terrible tech frame data.
Against his recovery, use turnips to cover tether but stay away from the ledge if you can't punish in time. Force him to stay near the ledge and maintain stage control rather than attempt to go offstage / near the ledge and whiff a move. His UpB is easy to punish with turnips / any aerial.
Vs Peach, Lucas has an insane punish game. His Dair can combo into itself, Uair/Fair chain into each other until Lucas gets a sweetspot Fair/Bair finisher, his downthrow followups work roughly until Uthrow kills (~120-130 on most stages), and Upsmash / OU upsmash kill around 60-80% if Lucas can land it. Unlike other characters, Lucas' Dair allows him to safely convert into the strongest kill move in the game, whereas a Fox / Marth would have to find an opening for their smash attack. Upsmash & Uthrow are the main reasons that make this MU so polarizing with their guaranteed kill potential.
Lucas has a difficult time dealing with float and for the most part has to make soft reads on where she'll be, then try to punish with a Uair below her or a rising Bair/Fair.
In this MU, if either player gets forced to the ledge, it should be hell trying to get off and recover center stage. Both characters zone each other out super hard near the ledge
The Brazilian Afro
Smash Cadet
Like you said. Both characters can both zone and combo each other pretty well. From what I saw, too many Peaches don't play the MU the way I think it should be played. I believe that most Peach players have a neutral/defensive stance that Lucas's can easily abuse (cause PKF IS annoying to deal with), but his OoS game is not as good to compete agains an aggressive Peach. Every FC aerial ends up being safe on Lucas's shield and if he tries to trade, Peach is usually put in a more advantageous situation.
Though I do agree that Lucas wins the neutral, I believe it's a very momentum based MU, with both characters countering each other pretty well through out the match (and stages affect this MU a lot)
Though I do agree that Lucas wins the neutral, I believe it's a very momentum based MU, with both characters countering each other pretty well through out the match (and stages affect this MU a lot)
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
I'd say it's +1 in Lucas' favor if not even.
Let's be real, Peach's approach options can be viewed as bad, but it's not like she necessarily has to approach Lucas in the first place. PK Freeze zoning doesn't really mean all that much when she can float and hit them while also not having to deal with any landing lag after doing so.
The reason fox does so good against Peach is because you can't clank with his lasers and they rack up damage fast (in melee anyway). He's got drill to deal with cc and waveshining to prevent her from throwing anything out, which also leads to fox being able to convert and put her above him. His hitboxes are generally larger than Lucas' as well.
Lucas gets bopped offstage (what else is new), and Lucas has a hard time dealing with Peach's aggression since her hitboxes + FC are so good. I also don't think it's very appropriate to challenge peach floating much, since as I said, her hitboxes are better in the situation, and the trades will typically be in her favor.
Lucas can outrun her and kill her somewhat early with up smash. That's about the best that Lucas gets out of the MU if you ask me. Yes he can combo her, but what else is new he can combo like everyone lol.
I also hate having to deal with this MU on a small stage. Jesus christ.
Let's be real, Peach's approach options can be viewed as bad, but it's not like she necessarily has to approach Lucas in the first place. PK Freeze zoning doesn't really mean all that much when she can float and hit them while also not having to deal with any landing lag after doing so.
The reason fox does so good against Peach is because you can't clank with his lasers and they rack up damage fast (in melee anyway). He's got drill to deal with cc and waveshining to prevent her from throwing anything out, which also leads to fox being able to convert and put her above him. His hitboxes are generally larger than Lucas' as well.
Lucas gets bopped offstage (what else is new), and Lucas has a hard time dealing with Peach's aggression since her hitboxes + FC are so good. I also don't think it's very appropriate to challenge peach floating much, since as I said, her hitboxes are better in the situation, and the trades will typically be in her favor.
Lucas can outrun her and kill her somewhat early with up smash. That's about the best that Lucas gets out of the MU if you ask me. Yes he can combo her, but what else is new he can combo like everyone lol.
I also hate having to deal with this MU on a small stage. Jesus christ.
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The Brazilian Afro
Smash Cadet
I find it way easier to punish an offstage Lucas than an offstage Fox 
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Have they tried using tether?I find it way easier to punish an offstage Lucas than an offstage Fox
The Brazilian Afro
Smash Cadet
Covering the edge with a z-dropped turnip as soon as I see that they are near enough the edge to try that, with an air dodge back to stage.
My main problem was actually with 3.5 Fox and his 4 frame landing Up-B though (though I have grown as a player since 3.6 released and haven't played as many Foxes, so there's that.)
Back to the discussion at hand. Maybe I just need to fight a Lucas that blows me out of the water. I mean, Peach is a weird MU and many characters have to fight differently against her, so maybe the Lucas's I fought just weren't capable of making the needed adaptations to fight Peach.
My main problem was actually with 3.5 Fox and his 4 frame landing Up-B though (though I have grown as a player since 3.6 released and haven't played as many Foxes, so there's that.)
Back to the discussion at hand. Maybe I just need to fight a Lucas that blows me out of the water. I mean, Peach is a weird MU and many characters have to fight differently against her, so maybe the Lucas's I fought just weren't capable of making the needed adaptations to fight Peach.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
There's not many good Lucas players out there tbh. Most of us are coming from some other smash game (Brawl, 64, Sm4sh) and most of us haven't had an extensive Melee background IMO. So a majority of Lucas players are inexperienced in general. The best Lucas player for the longest time was Neon with a Melee Fox background. After that was Pink Fresh, who was a top Brawl player, so he had good fundamentals. I think that Lucas players lack proper spacing and fundamentals / neutral. Going on a tangent, these are all reasons I'll be training with MI's Melee PR / top players (Duck, KJH, Ginger, Beach, etc) so that I can improve those areas of my play and bring those skills back to my PM Lucas
==
==
While this works, keep in mind that Lucas can AGT her turnips which aids Lucas' recovery
As a Peach player, you should be covering or in a position to punish the SideB recovery first, closely followed by having the spacing to punish UpB going towards the stage. Peach should force Fox to recover to ledge or take damage for trying to recover high. Not enough Peach players flowchart ledge guarding Fox IMO. The closest would be Armada and sometimes MacD if he's on point.
Agreed to an extent. If you fight someone who's exponentially better, you'll never get an actual representation of how a matchup is played. Instead, they'll just be exploiting your weaknesses as a player / character. To get a good feel of how a matchup is played, both players need to be experienced with fighting the opponent's respective character and be of a high skill level. It's pretty difficult to adapt to Peach if you don't know how to play defensively. I fought Hanky Panky and only game 2 when was I able to recognize my bad habits. Game 3 was when I started to adjust my gameplan accordingly, but it was too late at that point.
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's Perspective (+3 has Lucas winning)
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
People should really stop with this +3 vs peach BS. None of you are going to tell me or convince me that Lucas handles that matchup just as well as Melee fox does. I think he wins the MU but not by a 70:30 ratio.
And no, I disagree with just about almost everything you just listed but I'm too lazy to write up a huge post on why. rip
And no, I disagree with just about almost everything you just listed but I'm too lazy to write up a huge post on why. rip
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Yeah I totally agree. Sure we may have a winning MU but it's definitely not +3. Also a lot of it is kinda wonky. We don't go even with sheik, like at all. Many of us would agree that sheik is our worst MU. I personally think that we go even with ivy, zss, lucario, rob, MK and yoshi. Not sure why you think we win/lose some of those MUs. I also think the samus MU is -1 for us.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I think you're basing that list off your personal opinions too much. I'm sure most Lucas mains here would agree with the following. Characters I didn't discuss below are agreed upon placings in your matchup spread
==
Here's a writeup since Kip is too lazy to make one:
At BEST, Lucas beats Peach +2 and that's once Lucas' spacing gets fully optimized and you guys go back to getting kills at 70-80% on floaties.
Falco is -1 Fox is -1 or even, Wolf is most likely even, but an unexplored MU since there aren't many good wolf players that abuse blaster in neutral or punish hard enough.
Marth and Roy are -1. Marth could potentially be even once Lucas mains start playing the MU smarter
Pika isn't that free. +1 but not much easier. +2 implies Pika has very minimal options to deal with Lucas' toolkit. +1 means that Pika is disadvantaged, but can still pull out wins.
As mentioned above, Sheik is DEFINITELY our worst MU by far, and that doesn't say much since it's only -2.
I believe GnW is +1. GnW could be even if they use jab & tilts to clank PKF while abusing all of Lucas' weaknesses and stuffing his approaches. Overall, I don't think that GnW is fast enough to deal with Lucas and he can't get anything started if Lucas plays a proper zone and doesn't randomly throw out PKF / aerials in neutral
Charizard is +1 for similar reasons. Primarily, he's a floaty heavy, meaning Lucas' can combo him super hard and all his finishers will be able to kill easily compared to that of fighting Diddy (dies to Uthrow around 160+ and Usmash above 110%) or DDD (Uthrow around 140%, Upsmash around 120%). Zard on the other hand dies around 90% to Upsmash and 130% to Upthrow. So winning neutral needs to only happen about 3-5 times compared to winning neutral 6-10 times vs Diddy or DDD. On the other hand, Zard doesn't have great conversions on Lucas compared to a good deal of the cast.
Mewtwo feels like it's -1 but that character is just weird and I don't believe any good Lucas mains have fought any of the two good Mewtwo players out there (Frozen / Emukiller). The last we've seen of the MU at high level was 3.02: Neon vs M2K. The matchup feels like fighting a floaty Marth / Roy: we lose the CC / Dtilt battle, grab is ridiculous at times, Uairs juggle us forever and Bair, Fsmash, and Ftilt outrange us by a lot. Not to mention the fact that Mewtwo is the only other character in the game with a powerful killing upthrow that takes our stock around 130% or so. To top that off, his SideB is great for stopping PKF in neutral while the command grab combos extremely well and leads to Fair which kills very early.
==
Here's a writeup since Kip is too lazy to make one:
At BEST, Lucas beats Peach +2 and that's once Lucas' spacing gets fully optimized and you guys go back to getting kills at 70-80% on floaties.
Falco is -1 Fox is -1 or even, Wolf is most likely even, but an unexplored MU since there aren't many good wolf players that abuse blaster in neutral or punish hard enough.
Marth and Roy are -1. Marth could potentially be even once Lucas mains start playing the MU smarter
Pika isn't that free. +1 but not much easier. +2 implies Pika has very minimal options to deal with Lucas' toolkit. +1 means that Pika is disadvantaged, but can still pull out wins.
As mentioned above, Sheik is DEFINITELY our worst MU by far, and that doesn't say much since it's only -2.
I believe GnW is +1. GnW could be even if they use jab & tilts to clank PKF while abusing all of Lucas' weaknesses and stuffing his approaches. Overall, I don't think that GnW is fast enough to deal with Lucas and he can't get anything started if Lucas plays a proper zone and doesn't randomly throw out PKF / aerials in neutral
Charizard is +1 for similar reasons. Primarily, he's a floaty heavy, meaning Lucas' can combo him super hard and all his finishers will be able to kill easily compared to that of fighting Diddy (dies to Uthrow around 160+ and Usmash above 110%) or DDD (Uthrow around 140%, Upsmash around 120%). Zard on the other hand dies around 90% to Upsmash and 130% to Upthrow. So winning neutral needs to only happen about 3-5 times compared to winning neutral 6-10 times vs Diddy or DDD. On the other hand, Zard doesn't have great conversions on Lucas compared to a good deal of the cast.
Mewtwo feels like it's -1 but that character is just weird and I don't believe any good Lucas mains have fought any of the two good Mewtwo players out there (Frozen / Emukiller). The last we've seen of the MU at high level was 3.02: Neon vs M2K. The matchup feels like fighting a floaty Marth / Roy: we lose the CC / Dtilt battle, grab is ridiculous at times, Uairs juggle us forever and Bair, Fsmash, and Ftilt outrange us by a lot. Not to mention the fact that Mewtwo is the only other character in the game with a powerful killing upthrow that takes our stock around 130% or so. To top that off, his SideB is great for stopping PKF in neutral while the command grab combos extremely well and leads to Fair which kills very early.
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Kneato
Totoro Joe
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2013
- Messages
- 395
Lol I'm not basing this list off of my personal opinions at all.
That's the current listings on the community matchup chart. It's outdated as hell. I'm asking so I can get input on what needs to be changed.
Thanks for the feedback btw Delta.
Also for the record, the numbers roughly stand for:
+1 - 55:45 slight advantage
+2 - 60:40 advantage
+3 - 65:35 large advantage
That's the current listings on the community matchup chart. It's outdated as hell. I'm asking so I can get input on what needs to be changed.
Thanks for the feedback btw Delta.
Also for the record, the numbers roughly stand for:
+1 - 55:45 slight advantage
+2 - 60:40 advantage
+3 - 65:35 large advantage
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Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
ya well the community involved with that list is apparently dumb af rofl
I have no interest in looking at what the rest of the community MU chart says if it's as ridiculous and inaccurate as the MUs they gave to Lucas.
But I'll lay down a few problems I have with this.
Falco being the only -2 MU when there are definitely tought MUs makes no sense to me.
Pikachu is definitely nowhere near +2. I think that's actually -1 for us. That character is hard to deal with on so many levels as Lucas.
Bowser is free. Not sure why Lucas would have that much more good MUs over Bowser. Definitely more than +1.
Yoshi isn't and has not ever been a losing MU for Lucas. +1 or +2 in Lucas's favor at best, and even at the very worst.
There's a lot more I have issues with from that chart but meh. I don't really care enough to go over every MU nor do I feel like going into detail.
I have no interest in looking at what the rest of the community MU chart says if it's as ridiculous and inaccurate as the MUs they gave to Lucas.
But I'll lay down a few problems I have with this.
Falco being the only -2 MU when there are definitely tought MUs makes no sense to me.
Pikachu is definitely nowhere near +2. I think that's actually -1 for us. That character is hard to deal with on so many levels as Lucas.
Bowser is free. Not sure why Lucas would have that much more good MUs over Bowser. Definitely more than +1.
Yoshi isn't and has not ever been a losing MU for Lucas. +1 or +2 in Lucas's favor at best, and even at the very worst.
There's a lot more I have issues with from that chart but meh. I don't really care enough to go over every MU nor do I feel like going into detail.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
^
I'd actually disagree on this. I've played Lucas v Yoshi for the past year. It's definitely not losing, but the MU is nowhere near free. At best, it's +1, but I say it's around even. Both characters have easy 0-60% combos that can extend into ZTDs. The only advantage here is Lucas' slightly better recovery and ability to get more reliable kills in a safer manner.
Armor, crouch cancel, and larger, higher priority hitboxes allow Yoshi to deal with much of Lucas' toolkit.
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
Armor stopped being much of a problem in this MU for me when I realized that baiting a Yoshi player into trying to DJC nair out of a combo is easy af. It's the same as baiting nairs from Luigi players. The only time armor really gets to me is when I hit them with a strong move while they're trying to recover, but Yoshi goes nowhere since the armor is subtractive. Well, that and when I hit them before they do a DJC attack, but since armor is frame 1, it lets them hit me anyway (which rarely happens).
Crouch cancel is annoying but I expect it out of Yoshi anyway, which lets me deal with it usually (dair, grabs, or just not even approaching it).
His combo game and edgeguards on Lucas are what make the MU not free for Lucas....aaaaand I guess his DJC allows for him to pressure Lucas's shield pretty easily since other than a burst OoS, it's kinda hard to combat Yoshi's shield pressure with Lucas. Armor and CC are stupid, but I don't find those to be the problem in the MU.
Crouch cancel is annoying but I expect it out of Yoshi anyway, which lets me deal with it usually (dair, grabs, or just not even approaching it).
His combo game and edgeguards on Lucas are what make the MU not free for Lucas....aaaaand I guess his DJC allows for him to pressure Lucas's shield pretty easily since other than a burst OoS, it's kinda hard to combat Yoshi's shield pressure with Lucas. Armor and CC are stupid, but I don't find those to be the problem in the MU.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
It still keeps him from being ZTD'd unlike vs most of the cast. And while you can deal with CC like you said, it's still a part of the MU that makes dealing with Yoshi difficult
What would you say the main problems are in the MU?
What would you say the main problems are in the MU?
Kipcom
Smash Journeyman
Keeping up with his movement on certain stages and his insane combo/pressure toolkit on Lucas, tbh. As much as I wanna say I feel bad for the nerfs Yoshi mains got in 3.6, people probably don't even know that Yoshi had a legit chaingrab on Lucas if you DI away. And of course if you didn't DI away, you'd get DJC uair'd.
It's possible to 0 to death Yoshi, however. Harder than most characters though, I'll give you that. 0 to deaths on Yoshi don't really feel like one big string/combo, but moreso 2 or 3 interactions before you kill him. However, that means that I have to win neutral more than once and then get a good punish off of it to do so.
I will say that his cc down smash is really freaking good though. That knockback + the angle on it is just absurd. And Lucas is one of the lighter characters in the game so rip. I do sometimes catch myself slipping and doing a bad approach and getting hit by it.
So yeah, I'd say it's more likely +1 in Lucas's favor, I guess. Yoshi mains are getting better with the character and they're finally learning more options in neutral and in their punishes. I might just be a bit bias because I've never dropped a tournament set to Yoshi, nor would I say any of the Yoshi's I've fought on Netplay ((lol netplay) Tap, Tombo, Pug) have an edge over me....They're all really good, but I think Lucas puts the work on em.
It's possible to 0 to death Yoshi, however. Harder than most characters though, I'll give you that. 0 to deaths on Yoshi don't really feel like one big string/combo, but moreso 2 or 3 interactions before you kill him. However, that means that I have to win neutral more than once and then get a good punish off of it to do so.
I will say that his cc down smash is really freaking good though. That knockback + the angle on it is just absurd. And Lucas is one of the lighter characters in the game so rip. I do sometimes catch myself slipping and doing a bad approach and getting hit by it.
So yeah, I'd say it's more likely +1 in Lucas's favor, I guess. Yoshi mains are getting better with the character and they're finally learning more options in neutral and in their punishes. I might just be a bit bias because I've never dropped a tournament set to Yoshi, nor would I say any of the Yoshi's I've fought on Netplay ((lol netplay) Tap, Tombo, Pug) have an edge over me....They're all really good, but I think Lucas puts the work on em.
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