Neon's Match-up Discussion

[D e l t a]

Why 65/35 for Olimar?

Read the spoiler and my 2nd paragraph at the top.

 

[Dotcom]

I read, so i'll offer counter to your points and see if we can lead this discussion somewhere.

The same way you cancel out our Pikmin with PK Freeze, we cancel out PK freeze with Pikmin. Good Olimar's don;t really care about this anyway as we can throw Pikmin faster than you can PK freeze. You get more off a connect as that little popup is all you need to make a play happen, but neutral off projectiles I think is in our favor. Once we get that latch you either make the decision to shield all of the hits, or attack to get them off of you. The safest way would probably be to attack Olimar with a safe move, as anything else produces an easy punish.

Olimar has some of the best OoS options in the game my friend. Shortest short hop does WONDERS. Nair, Fair, and Usmash out of shield are all variably safe OoS options that if connected combo into most of our move set. Besides that there's no reason to roll against Lucas when we could WaveDash oos to reset the neutral. You don't get "free" pressure on Oli, thought it's Pikmin dependent what the counter option will be.

Our main issue here is priority and weight. We lose trades for a size able portion of the matchup and die to Vertical Kill moves which you have quite a few of. But to counter that we have some pretty insane combo's and follow ups on fast fallers, and Lucas is the proper weight to get opened up by our BnB's.

+1 Lucas. DEFINITELY not +3.

 

[D e l t a]

Like I said, I mained him in brawl where his pikmin toss was twice as good & covered longer distance. Fsmash was faster and lingered. His pivot & standing grabs went farther. Yes, his short hop is the lowest, but he's also tiny. His Nair isn't a great counter being 1. Multi-hit 2. Small hitbox. Furthermore, Fair takes a decent amount of startup, and by that time Lucas will either WD back or have already punished the startup.

WD OoS covers little space and still leaves Oli open. He then has to counter with a fast attack. Maybe WD back -> tilt / pivot grab? Even then, Lucas should reset back to neutral at that point and punish your defensive option. He'd still have stage control and momentum would be on Lucas' favor.

I've seen the combos and even practiced Oli combos on fast fallers. I guarantee you that Lucas' punishes are far better and Olimar is at an easier combo weight than Lucas. Basically DI everything down & away from Oli and he can't followup. That's if they can even land hits on Lucas being faster in speed and air drift.

Nair, magnet, fair all beat out pikmin and are safe to approach with. His other aerials and dash attack are also great for knocking off pikmin & attacking Oli. Not to mention the fact that PKF damages pikmin health and leaves them on the ground open to be attacked.

==

I may be exaggerating at +3, but at best the MU is +1 Lucas. +2 sounds reasonable.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

(+3) 65/35 * *
(+2) 60/40
(+1) 55/45 * *
(0) 50/50
(-1) 45/55 *
(-2) 40/60
(-3) 35/65

So I'd like to explain why I feel the way I do about a couple of characters that I had.

ICs: I play a LOT of ICs, I've played them in tournament and have a lot of knowledge with them. You said ICs is +3, and I agree that what you said is true. But, ICs don't really have too hard of a time in neutral against Lucas because pkf doesn't destroy them. Ice blocks can neutralize them, and you can catch Lucas in the startup of his djc pkf by nanapaulting and blizzarding him, leading to a free grab. Also, ICs can still kill Lucas off a grab even without an infinite. Sopo also punishes hard because he has a dthrow chaingrab that can lead into a smash attack. The neutral is about who commits poorly first, and then they get punished to death for it. ICs usually have an easier time messing up due to there being two of them, and if you catch ICs in a defensive position, there's very little they can do, so you could usually ride the momentum to death, which is why I think Lucas wins +2.

Peach: Unfortunately, my only experience with this MU is playing Widl (an EU peach) and he plays the matchup very well. pkf does body Peach when she's on the ground, but Peach shouldn't be playing like that in this matchup. A lot of her time should be spent in the air floating a little bit above a djc pkf or sh nair height. This way, fullhop pkf can't hit her, and neither can sh pkf, so pkf is completely neutralized when she's in this position (doing a fullhop, then djc pkf to hit her at this float height takes too long and can be easily reacted to and punished). I think Lucas gets pretty bopped in neutral as of right now in the current metagame. Maybe if I played more Peach or saw more high level Peach/Lucas I'd tend to feel differently, but as of now there's no evidence for me to think that Lucas wins the neutral. The punish game is HEAVILY in our favor, which is why I still think it's even though.

Ness: So this is by far my best and most experienced matchup. My training partner is Boiko (top ness player) and we play this matchup all the time. Lucas has an easier time in the neutral game due to his much better mobility, ability to put out hitboxes faster, and has good CC options out of approaches such as fair. The punish game is surprisingly in our favor because Ness can't really combo you too hard unless he reads platform techs. Out of dthrow you just DI away and then sdi the djc fair he does away and he can't get a followup. Lucas has freestyle combos that don't rely on stage or platform layout, and has almost guaranteed dthrow usmash at mid-high percents (only DI that doesn't work is slight DI behind). The recovery game is difficult for both characters. Ness can cover your tether with magnet -> dair, and has a similar way of dealing with how you deal with Ness' up-b, either you let them get ledge for free or hard read an angle to the ledge, or cover an onstage angle with usmash or bair or whatever you like. If either characters are below the stage after double jumping, they should be dead 10/10 times. Lucas slightly beats or goes even with Ness in every aspect of the matchup, but it's enough for Lucas to have a noticable winning MU on Ness.

I don't think I have enough experience in any other MUs to try and defend my placing over yours, so that's all I'll really say.

 

[D e l t a]

I find it funny that we train with 2 of the 3 best Ness players. Both of us agreeing on Ness v Lucas I'd say is confirmed 50/50 for now.

Also, Ness can CG Lucas easily. If you DI behind its super free followups (never DI this way), DI away = regrab until about 30%, then Tetra likes to use Upsmash or magnet, which you have to DI, SDI, ASDI away, otherwise you get popped straight up instead of away at a horizontal angle. Fair is also a decent followup, but I think of that as the beginner followup. It doesn't lead to much and barely tacks on 8-15%. Best DI from Dthrow is straight up / slightly away. Ness doesn't have great vertical followups / juggle options

==

I want to play more Peach players. It might be a lack of playing top level peaches ie. Silly Kyle / Armada level, but I've yet to struggle against Peach. Also, if they're floating too high, wait out the float or go underneath and utilt / Uair. Nair should be able to hit at the apex of your short hop and a full hop Fair at max range can intercept peach pretty well.

I say +3 for Lucas because he does as well as Fox in Melee, but with a better recovery and more guaranteed kill options. It's highly unexplored due to Peach and Lucas players being a rarity / most being bad which leads to falsified results & poor judgement. If there was more played out experience in the MU, Peach v Lucas IMO will end up being +4 Lucas when the character becomes fully optimized. I'd say the matchup as it stands now is +1 at worst for Lucas, probably +2 on average.

Also, Lucas beats out CC options from Peach better than Fox. Plus, Lucas doesn't get caught in a full dsmash because he doesn't use many down moves unlike Fox (Dair can be Csticked & magnet isn't amazing against Peach in this MU).

 

[Kipcom]

Hey guys I think Lucas vs. Lucas might be a 50/50 MU but I could be wrong here.

 

[D e l t a]

Let's discuss Sheik first. We can move down the list thru Falco, fire emblem, Diddy, etc

What makes her so polarizing in this MU? How can we approach best? Lucas resembles Fox in many aspects, and it's been known that Fox beats sheik. The only major difference is an easier time tech chasing Lucas & ledge guarding his recovery. Any ideas how to change this MU to favor Lucas?

 

[Boiko]

I find it funny that we train with 2 of the 3 best Ness players. Both of us agreeing on Ness v Lucas I'd say is confirmed 50/50 for now.

Also, Ness can CG Lucas easily. If you DI behind its super free followups (never DI this way), DI away = regrab until about 30%, then Tetra likes to use Upsmash or magnet, which you have to DI, SDI, ASDI away, otherwise you get popped straight up instead of away at a horizontal angle. Fair is also a decent followup, but I think of that as the beginner followup. It doesn't lead to much and barely tacks on 8-15%. Best DI from Dthrow is straight up / slightly away. Ness doesn't have great vertical followups / juggle options

Ness' CG doesn't last that long. If you DI any of his follow ups away, the combo ends. Also, fair as the "beginner" follow up is a weird thing to think. If they don't SDI fair out, it leads to more follow ups than anything else in Ness' kit. Out of fair you can, grab, dtilt, DJC nair, and even fsmash. Each of those, besides fsmash, has it's own unique tree of even more options.

The best DI from down throw is down and away, not up and slightly away. If you DI up and slightly away, you're going to get uaired, which leads to a lot of damage. It sets up for more uairs, up tilts, footstool and dair tech chases.

 

[Xcite]

What reasons do you have for the Shiek matchup being 65-35 Delta? I never thought that the matchup was that terrible.

 

[D e l t a]

Ness' CG doesn't last that long. If you DI any of his follow ups away, the combo ends. Also, fair as the "beginner" follow up is a weird thing to think. If they don't SDI fair out, it leads to more follow ups than anything else in Ness' kit. Out of fair you can, grab, dtilt, DJC nair, and even fsmash. Each of those, besides fsmash, has it's own unique tree of even more options.

The best DI from down throw is down and away, not up and slightly away. If you DI up and slightly away, you're going to get uaired, which leads to a lot of damage. It sets up for more uairs, up tilts, footstool and dair tech chases.

I say about 30% bc Tetra doesn't always regrab and I'll DI out of the CG if she regrabs me DI'ing down and away.

As for saying "beginner followup," I simply mean that if the opponent is cognisant of these followups, they will DI / SDI out accordingly. Not to say that Fair is a bad followup by any means. For example, Marth players still get followups from Fthrow such as chain grabs, Fsmash, Dtilt, etc. It's one of the first things you learn and can have multiple rewards if your opponent isn't on point.

DI down and away sets up for Fair & magnet more than anything. Ness' Uair only gets 1-2 successive hits due to his slower jump & fall speed. And if Lucas is above ~50%, they'll have to full hop / DJ Uair. By that time, Lucas can either counter attack & land, or double jump out of the combo. It's also possible to DI slightly forward from the first Uair then be able to escape the resulting followup.

Footstool followup seems interesting. If you can link me to a video where Ness gets a good followup off a footstool on Lucas from Dthrow I'd love to see that. The only potential followup I can think of would be DJC Dair / Nair or jab resetting them if they miss the tech from hitting the ground.

==

What reasons do you have for the Shiek matchup being 65-35 Delta? I never thought that the matchup was that terrible.

It might not exactly be -3, but very brutal (maybe -2). I used to think it was easy until I faced a competent Sheik player who stuffed every approach I had, followed up grabs to ledge guards / death, and spaced around every single move I had. It's nowhere near unwinnable, but I switched off to play Fox/Falco and had a much easier time.

Needles >>> PKF. Tilts and anti-air attacks are very hard to combat. Like I said earlier, Sheik can Dthrow tech chase Lucas to death. His getup attack while very good, can simply be jab reset upon missed tech. Tech in place can be covered and tech rolls are terrible. If she doesn't tech chase you, she chain grabs from DI mix ups. Ledge guards are super easy with needles & invincible rising aerials on the ledge.

Luckily the saving grace is that Lucas is tiny and mobile, so he can run around her moves and punish hard. Unfortunately, she can stuff his movement with aerials and tilts while being safe at a distance because of needles, which he can't duck.

Sheiks at a great weight & fall speed for combos, and Lucas can punish her UpB on stage fairly well. If Sheik is pressured by crossing up shield, she can't exactly hit Lucas spaced out with her Bair hitbox angles and the timing / small backside of SH Nair OoS.

 

[Boiko]

I say about 30% bc Tetra doesn't always regrab and I'll DI out of the CG if she regrabs me DI'ing down and away.

As for saying "beginner followup," I simply mean that if the opponent is cognisant of these followups, they will DI / SDI out accordingly. Not to say that Fair is a bad followup by any means. For example, Marth players still get followups from Fthrow such as chain grabs, Fsmash, Dtilt, etc. It's one of the first things you learn and can have multiple rewards if your opponent isn't on point.

DI down and away sets up for Fair & magnet more than anything. Ness' Uair only gets 1-2 successive hits due to his slower jump & fall speed. And if Lucas is above ~50%, they'll have to full hop / DJ Uair. By that time, Lucas can either counter attack & land, or double jump out of the combo. It's also possible to DI slightly forward from the first Uair then be able to escape the resulting followup.

Footstool followup seems interesting. If you can link me to a video where Ness gets a good followup off a footstool on Lucas from Dthrow I'd love to see that. The only potential followup I can think of would be DJC Dair / Nair or jab resetting them if they miss the tech from hitting the ground.

You're thinking too much of comboing for damage instead of comboing for positioning. He can get two uairs and then mix in a dair/uair/footstool. From a footstool he can dair to force a missed tech. Which he can then jab reset into another dair into another dair/footstool/early dair to trick a tech input. Alternatively, after two uairs, he can soft nair into bair/dair/pk fire, plus you may end up off stage. Either way, you're putting yourself into a bad position.

If you DI down and away, however, yes, you may get regrabbed until 30 percent, or you may get hit by fair/magnet/nair, either way, the combo ends there.

By DIing up and slightly away, you're opening up more options for him and putting him in a more favorable position.

And FTR, you can't DI slightly forward to escape uair because it's a guaranteed tipper fsmash. You have to SDI uair up so you can jump out and even that doesn't work at low-mid percentages.

 

[D e l t a]

You're thinking too much of comboing for damage instead of comboing for positioning.

Hm, I actually never really thought about theory crafting combos like that.

And FTR, you can't DI slightly forward to escape uair because it's a guaranteed tipper fsmash. You have to SDI uair up so you can jump out and even that doesn't work at low-mid percentages.

That's what I mean. I'm still working on my conveyance online .-. At high % Ness can't followup at certain heights from a Uair. At low % you would just hold down and away then hit the ground n escape. Although I could see the Fsmash part being a problem. This situation seems similar to the Marth conundrum: combo DI Fair, get hit by Fsmash. Survival DI Fair, keep getting combo'd.

 

[D e l t a]

**** Sheik. That MU is dumb (as with every other secondary I play - Snake, Ivy, Mario, etc)

In related news, I'm understanding the MU better and it's pretty complex game of RPS.

Aerials always back to be respected at ALL times and out-range most of Lucas' moves. On shield, Lucas basically has to roll/WD away because of the knockback + shield stun.

Basically was holding away for 50-70% of the matches. Good SDI helps a lot, especially to avoid infinite Uairs that lead into Fair / Bair or death. Fsmash & Dash attack = free followup unless you DI them away.

Needles beat PKF. Must always be positioned away from aerial needles to not get sniped / grabbed and constantly threaten a zone so that she can't camp with grounded needles. Aka never let Sheik go FD vs Lucas unless you're counterpicking a player that hates the stage.

Mixup your recoveries well. I cannot stress this point enough. She literally tears apart Lucas offstage and can cover every single option 10/10 times. Be EXTREMELY smart & careful not to burn a double jump.

Punish hard and punish well. I only took games off my friend because I could get him 0-40+ consistently then sent him offstage where I could ledge guard him / throw him back offstage & repeat. In the neutral, take every opening you find. It's hard to find holes in Sheik's game play so pay very close attention here.

 

[AntSSB]

how does everyone feel about the meta knight MU. i cant seem to beat any meta knight i play. thanks!

 

[D e l t a]

how does everyone feel about the meta knight MU. i cant seem to beat any meta knight i play. thanks!

Not sure the exclusive areas you struggle in, so a description or video would help clarify your specific problems

==

Here's how I feel about the MU:

Neutral: Lots of dash dancing and baiting. Both characters have great mobility and can instantly rush in and capitalize on one mis-step. Be wary of PKF as MK's dash attack and i believe his aerials can cut thru the projectile. Grabs aren't advised here unless you are 100% sure you've got a solid followup from a Nair/Fair or PKF as MK punishes whiffed grabs easily. Conversely, MK can easily run in and grab you with his fast speed and decent grab range. Grabs leads to easy tech chases / ledge guards for MK, so be careful to always have center stage as much as possible. Don't over-commit.

Punish Game: Lucas can combo MK with ease. Magnet and Nair lead into tons of combo opportunities while his Fair/Uair juggle and carry MK across the stage for days. Both chars have a terrible tech roll, which results in easy tech chases that can lead to death.

Ledge guards are primarily based per move. It's best to stay on stage rather than try to cover ledge against MK. His aerials from the ledge have decent range that Lucas can't safely punish most times if he whiffs. MK can downB from ledge to the stage or a platform like on BF / PS2. If you maintain stage presence rather than try to cover ledge, MK is restricted on his approach back to center stage. Punish and trap his landings rather than attempt to combat MK in the air.

MK on the other hand, does the exact opposite of what I mentioned above. He covers ledge against tether then punishes Lucas' UpB. Lucas' aerials from the ledge and his general options at the ledge aren't that great, so MK can easily force Lucas to stage at the ledge. The only main concern is to avoid Lucas' rising Fair from the ledge and be spaced out against wavelands on stage. Lucas' perfect wavelands go approximately the distance of halfway under BF/PS2's side platform.

==

Last Neon said, the matchup is dead even.

It could go either way and is one of the few MU's in PM that is more player v player rather than character v character. By this, I mean that there isn't anything polarizing in the MU that shifts balance one way or another. For example, Peach v ICs in Melee is about Peach using her aerials and Dsmash to effectively split up the climbers and avoid wobbling, which makes the MU heavily in her favor. Or Fox v Peach, where Fox can laser camp and out prioritize Peach at every turn, while she has to do her absolute best just to keep up with Fox's speed and power.

 

[Kipcom]

MK's sword is transcendent, so none of his sword attacks will clank with anything, including projectiles. The only way MK is going to deal with projectiles is by using dash attack, power shield, or movement/staying in the air.

 

[D e l t a]

MK's sword is transcendent, so none of his sword attacks will clank with anything, including projectiles. The only way MK is going to deal with projectiles is by using dash attack, power shield, or movement/staying in the air.

Gonna lab this later the week which of his moves go thru PKF. I could've sworn PKF got beat by Nair/Dair... I also found out that Zelda's kicks beat Fair and go straight through it, similar to Marth's Fair.

 

[D e l t a]

Any tips on countering Fox approaches? I've tried studying countless Melee vods and the few PM Fox's, but I don't yet have a solid answer. I've been thinking this over for a while and I can't seem to think of definite counter. Here's what I've been theory crafting so far:

Utilt
Pros: Stops more vertical approaches and has a decent disjoint
Cons: Not so great against horizontal approaches, has a medium window to be punished due to startup & endlag.

Ftilt
Pros: Lower startup speed (frame 7) & good disjoint
Cons: Poor priority and loses to Nair. Can easily be CC'd at low-mid %'s

Fsmash
Pros: Good range and higher priority that usually flat out beats Nair
Cons: Decent startup (frame 14) and punishable on whiff or at lower %'s

PKF
Pros: Virtually non-existent. Only goes thru lasers and hits right after Fox whiffs a SH aerial.
Cons: Loses to most of Fox's attacks, reflected by shine.

Magnet
Pros: Low commitment and if SH'd can lead into his aerials
Cons: Low priority and small hitbox

Fair
Pros: Fully spaced out can beat Fox's moves with the disjoint. Best against shine and Dair.
Cons: Generally trades with Nair and loses.

Nair/Dair
Pros: Minimal.
Cons: Small disjoint. Countered back by CC shine

Bair
Pros: Difficult to CC and the disjoint is best when retreating
Cons: High startup and end lag

WD back and/or grab
Pros: Great if the Fox is mindlessly running in with Nair, Dair, and shine
Cons: Bad if the opponent plays neutral well and is dash dancing just outside of Lucas' zone or jumps above grab. Also the most punishable of Lucas' moves.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

This match up was hard in 3.0 I heard, and with fox barely touched and Lucas's nerfs being some of the harshest, it seems that not much would change other than it is even harder for Lucas. I can play some netplay with you, my fox isn't terrible and you could experiment if you want. I bet you have a better player locally which would be better but just putting it out there.

 

[D e l t a]

This match up was hard in 3.0 I heard, and with fox barely touched and Lucas's nerfs being some of the harshest, it seems that not much would change other than it is even harder for Lucas. I can play some netplay with you, my fox isn't terrible and you could experiment if you want. I bet you have a better player locally which would be better but just putting it out there.

Bad computer = no netplay sadly. I'm also at college half the year so I can't exactly go anywhere to play smash

There's not too many Foxes in MI aside from our one PR - Lain. I'm mostly just trying to theory craft stuff right now and implement it later. It's worked pretty well so far, but I can't seem to 100% counter Fox's neutral quite yet. I've been starting to study more of Leffen v Armada so see how they thwart approaches, so any advice you could give as to beating Fox's approaches is appreciated.

 

[Xcite]

I honestly think the "neutral" portion of this matchup is dictated by which player can weave in and out with their moves better. Lucas has more control over his aerial space while fox has more control of the ground. So then it becomes a match in which each player tries to predict the other's option. The way I see it, lucas approach revolves around fair and magnet, with the occasional PKF to keep fox in check, and some sort of hard read utilt. Dtilt is pretty Decent tool against the fox game. Fox on the other hand has nair, shine, grab, and usmash approaches against lucas. For any lucas that decides to lay off fox, lasers would be the appropriate response. So it boils down to this guessing/reading game of how each character is going to approach in which lucas has the advantage in the air and fox in the ground but fox has a slight advantage in having to be less committal because of lasers but has to be weary of the threat of the quick burst SH magnet.

 

[D e l t a]

Thoughts on ROB & Diddy vs Lucas? Punish game on both sides, ways to ledge guard the two / avoid getting gimped by gyro or banana, how to play neutral? I'm curious what you guys think here

 

[Kipcom]

I feel like both ROB and Diddy beat Lucas, but not by that much. Diddy vs. Lucas feels like a closer matchup, however.

ROB vs. Lucas is hard because Lucas has no reliable ways of grabbing ROB unless you manage to get ROB to shield, which is hard considering ROB is usually airborne. ROB's airdash offense is good enough to where it prevents Lucas from attacking out of shield often (At least from my experience. If I'm just being too slow out of shield, then some other Lucas player please let me know so that I can git gud). ROB also chaingrabs Lucas, and has amazing edgeguard/gimp tools vs him. It's hard to get anything started when ROB's on the ground, because everything you do equates to ROB throwing out a crouch cancel down tilt or down smash. That's basically when it becomes in your best interest to start using dair often. They can't crouch cancel that, but they can SDI and tech it. Once you pick up on if they actually know how to tech, that's when you begin tech chasing with more dairs or even a grab. Once you get ROB in the air, he's actually pretty easy to combo (this actually goes for 3.5 too. I've gotten some pretty insane combos on ROB once I've gotten him in the air or offstage).

In neutral you definitely need to stay out of air dash range, absorbing any lasers ROB shoots at me, and taking gyro once he throws it out. It's kind of hard to pressure ROB once he starts using his air dashes, so I like to stay out of the range of air dash so that I can go for an immediate punish. If you mistime the punish, you're definitely going to hit before your move comes out. PK Freeze isn't really much of an option in neutral in this matchup. Air dash fair will swat that away while also hitting you. Same goes for his side b. Nothing to say about edgeguarding this character, since my edgeguarding in general has always been one of my weak points with Lucas.

They changed his fall speed right? I remember that killing him off the top so quickly was the one thing I actually liked about this MU, so it might take some extra % to kill him now.

I don't think ROB like destroys Lucas, but I'll be damned if I don't find fighting the character unfun.

 

[Aceroth]

Any tips on the Lucario matchup? I searched through the thread and only found a single comment from the 3.02 days that basically just said "don't get hit" so I was wondering if anyone can offer some more in-depth analysis and maybe mention things that have changed about the MU from 3.02 to now. I feel like I lose to most Lucario players, even when they don't seem like they're that much better than me (if at all). I have no idea how to DI while they're comboing me or when to try to tech (I pretty much tech trap myself half the time). Most of this is probably just because I need to play more Lucarios and learn the combos so I know where to DI / when to tech. Other than "keep away from their combo starters and punish whiffs" are there any more things to know for the Lucario MU?

 

[D e l t a]

hm, interesting points to consider Kip. I'll think more about that. I didn't know about the CG - i thought you could DI straight up around 30% then jump out or counter attack. His shield pressure being airborne is quite interesting; time to think of 50 new ways to counter that strategy in my head later. I don't know how much crouch cancelling is a big deal to me, seeing as I found ways to approach safely around CC'ing. Edge guarding is primarily a timing thing and using ledge invincible Bairs / baiting the air dashes and punishing with quick aerials, dash attack, etc.

How do you deal with Rob at mid to far range? Up close I know that Lucas definitely wins and at mid-range it's somewhat of a standoff (will Lucas approach / use PKF or will Rob approach / shoot projectiles)

==

The Lucario MU is primarily based around neutral and having a heavy punish game. CC Dtilt is great on both sides, but especially as Lucas. Everything of Lucario's can be SDI'd away, except at lower % obviously. Most Lucarios will approach with dash attack or downb, which has close to the same range. Learn that range and how to avoid it in neutral. Lucario has a pretty short range so just be cognizant of that distance. Lucario has a terrible time ledge guarding Lucas outside of avoiding aura spheres (easily absorbed) and the large aura balls (Lucario rarely uses and they heal over 30%).

Lucario is easy to combo and his weight is about average. Not very difficult to land kills, almost always happens around 110-130% unless I get a lucky gimp or quick upsmash.

==

Edit: @ Aceroth this should give you a good idea. Ruin does pretty well in the MU IMO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLfSyND9Fio

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

This may have been discussed earlier in this thread, but how is the Lucas Ness match up? Also what should you do you do in that match up?

 

[D e l t a]

This may have been discussed earlier in this thread, but how is the Lucas Ness match up? Also what should you do you do in that match up?

It's honestly 50/50 IMO. One of those MUs where there is less character jank and more reliance on player skill. Both combo heavy characters and it's insanely fun. Every Lucas v Ness will play differently.

I'll drop what I know, but the MU is something you have to play rather than theory craft. Just remember, it depends on the player, not the character in this MU.

So I'd like to explain why I feel the way I do about a couple of characters that I had.

Ness: So this is by far my best and most experienced matchup. My training partner is Boiko (top ness player) and we play this matchup all the time. Lucas has an easier time in the neutral game due to his much better mobility, ability to put out hitboxes faster, and has good CC options out of approaches such as fair. The punish game is surprisingly in our favor because Ness can't really combo you too hard unless he reads platform techs. Out of dthrow you just DI away and then sdi the djc fair he does away and he can't get a followup. Lucas has freestyle combos that don't rely on stage or platform layout, and has almost guaranteed dthrow usmash at mid-high percents (only DI that doesn't work is slight DI behind). The recovery game is difficult for both characters. Ness can cover your tether with magnet -> dair, and has a similar way of dealing with how you deal with Ness' up-b, either you let them get ledge for free or hard read an angle to the ledge, or cover an onstage angle with usmash or bair or whatever you like. If either characters are below the stage after double jumping, they should be dead 10/10 times. Lucas slightly beats or goes even with Ness in every aspect of the matchup, but it's enough for Lucas to have a noticable winning MU on Ness.

Adding on to all that, it's a high speed game of cat and mouse. Both sides want to bait out SideB's and punish. Fair is a good approach, but can be punished when spammed like a Fox Nair in neutral. Grab game leads to massive % especially if your DI isn't on point. The main advantage is that Lucas has Dair -> Upsmash and Uthrow to guarantee kills whereas Ness has to search for a backthrow at high % that depends on stage position or a grounded Dair -> Bair/Uair for guaranteed kills. Lucas' combo game is slightly better and he can control flow better than Ness. Ness can bob and weave in Lucas' zone safer than Lucas can impede Ness' space.

When recovering, Ness will try to cover and punish tether recoveries then fight off your UpB. Lucas can drop down with Dair safely if Ness doesn't have a jump. It's almost guaranteed to either meteor spike or steal their PKT1. Use PKF to force Ness to recover a certain angle on stage. If they're recovering high and aiming towards the stage, just charge an Fsmash or stay out of range then punish their landing lag. Don't go up and challenge Ness above the stage. If they're under the ledge, simply charge Dsmash since they can't sweetspot below ledge. Both hits plus the smash attack charge time should be enough to hit Ness. Dsmash also sends Ness at a nasty angle away from the stage. If you're risky or trying to quickly put out a hitbox, use a Bair to spike, but I would take the guaranteed Dsmash/Fsmash every other time.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

alright cool, I love seeing super even fast paced matchups in PM, just pure delight.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Another sort of similar question here.
Which character has a better match up against fox, Ness or Lucas.
I think Ness is slightly better for that but I'm not sure.
I like being able to play charcters that have good matchups against other characters I play.
I'm not a one character kind of guy.

 

[D e l t a]

Honestly, Fox is Fox. He'll run around shooting lasers, throwing out Nairs, and can shine both of us out of our recoveries. He will out prioritize most attacks and go for Uthrow -> Uair or upsmash whenever possible.

Lucas and Ness on the other hand? We will combo Fox from 0-50% or higher. The matchup from our perspective is a one touch of death. Earthbound characters (EB) have uthrow chain grabs, dthrow tech chase setups, dash attack conversions, strong, meaty backairs, Fairs that combo (and can lead to grabs), and a number of gimp setups. Lucas and Ness are very good at getting in and out of Fox's face just as well as Fox can do the same.

I'm not 100% familiar with everything that Ness, so I'll let this video do most of the talking on Ness' behalf.

I'll list some of the traits not mentioned already that define distinct differences between the two in this MU

Lucas vs Fox
Pros

• Easy damage when converting (Uthrow -> OU Usmash = 40%+)
• Fluid combos that can be found off stray hits rather than a read (ie. PKF, dash attacks, magnet, Fair)
• Better recovery mixup (Tether, UpB, air dodge on stage -> Zair, etc)
• Guaranteed kill setups / overall better finishers
• Can't convert off waveshine unless Lucas is CC'ing
• Can beat Fox's CC, but only with higher commitment moves or perfect spacing
• Better OoS options due to less startup frames

Cons

• Tether grab
• Lower traction resulting in shine sending Lucas extremely far off stage / losing stage control
• Out-prioritizes or trades with almost everything (goes thru PKF, trades with Fair, etc)
• Has to commit on most approaches / moves (except for long range PKF and magnet)
• Faster falling speed & lighter weight = combo food & easier to die
  • Did you know Fox can uthrow -> usmash x 2-3 -> Uair against Lucas?

Ness vs Fox
Pros

• Heavier weight (94 vs 80 units)
• Easier time fishing for kills (Bair & grab are safer on whiff than Lucas' whiffed attacks)
• Fights CC differently with rapid Dtilts and other quick moves

Cons

• Worse dash dance and slower run speed (1.6 vs 1.725 compared to Fox's 2.2)
• Difficult time in neutral due to shorter ranged projectile and higher startup on moves
  • Unsafe at closer range, predictable at a further range

Once again, I know less about Ness than Boiko, Tetra, StereoKiDD, etc, but that's my thoughts. Hope this helps you! (make sure to watch the vid I linked, it demonstrates Fox v Ness at the current highest level of PM in the metagame).

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Hehe, I am actually asking this question because I watched this video. From what I'm seeing, it looks like M2K is really struggling and barely sealed the set. Now of course there are many factors like PM fox being different than melee fox, M2K is unfamiliar with the matchup, and the list goes on, but seeing that Ness's punish game on Fox can tack on an almost guaranteed 40% to possible death, it seems in Ness's favor. This opinion is probably skewed because it is based off this one match. However this match is probably the highest level Ness v Fox match there is. I have also heard people say that Lucas had a hard time with fox even in 3.02 when he was top tier, which is why I am asking about it. Thanks for the input I'll maybe ask around the Ness forum as well just get some more info, but this was really useful.

PS I think Lucas is one of the hardest characters the CC in the game, with one combo. Mag Upair. I'm sure you have known about this. When my Lucas in on point, if someone tries is always CCing me, I will do a Mag, Upair, DJC dair, into F/D smash or grab to start a combo. The Fsmash can kill, the Dsmash can do a total of 70% if with OU, or throw to start/continue a combo.

 

[D e l t a]

m2k's Fox nearly got 4 stocked at LTC2 by Neon, take that with a grain of salt

The MU is only slightly in Fox's favor. Ness' punish game is on par with Lucas' in the MU which makes it hard to say that Ness loses in the MU. Boiko also plays with Envy's Fox a fair amount and whoever else plays Fox in the NY/NJ region.

Lucas' moves individually as I have stated in my guide, are susceptible to being CC'd easily. Linked together, well.... a frame 2 Dtilt / jab, frame 7 Ftilt, frame 5 magnet, and frame 5 Dair/Fair (with 4 jumpsquat frames assuming Lucas is on the ground currently), means that he can pull off some very quick moves that beat out the startup of an opponent's moves. I personally aim to beat crouch cancelling by either spacing out Ftilts (I found are VERY safe against 95% of the moves / characters in the game) or go for cross-up aerials -> turnaround magnet / Dtilt / Ftilt / grab.

PS I think Lucas is one of the hardest characters the CC in the game, with one combo. Mag Upair. I'm sure you have known about this.

...maybe against ASDI down? Dair or frame perfect Mag->Dair is about the best I can see beating a true CC. Remember, crouch cancelling is when the opponent is actually crouching. Anything else is a result of ASDI down.

 

[Kipcom]

Mew2King got bodied so hard by Neon's Lucas at first because he had no idea the character was that busted lol. When you go from having relatively close games with Pink Fresh to fighting Neon for the first time, it doesn't surprise me that that's what happened.
I don't think Neon would be able to do something like that again, especially since he doesn't play Lucas as much and Lucas has been heavily toned down.

As for beating CC I just prefer dair. It's simple and gets the job done easier than anything else.

 

[trancex]

I have issues using dair unless I read a CC. The hitbox is so small compared to nair, and nair breaks CC pretty early. The only issue is that they can shine out if they're too low%.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

That is actually the another set why I was asking about it. I watch a lot of PM games in youtube/ the thread to get a lot of my opinions/data as to not only rely on personal experiences and really look at the higher level game play to get a sense of match ups if I can. This can be hard if there isn't a lot of Lucas action though, but there are so many variables in a match so it isn't set and stone, like M2K having no idea how good Luca really was as Kipcom said earlier.

As for the CCing, I used to really only fight a Roy so that is what I am basing it off.

 

[AntSSB]

Diddy... what do?

 

[D e l t a]

I went to the Diddy boards a while back and got these responses:

http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-vs-lucas.394762/

==

Basically if he has a Banana it becomes a patient game of who will throw projectile first (most cases will be Diddy since they're almost always trying to shoot a peanut with their pop gun or throw Bananas). In order from fastest to slowest, Banana > PKF >> peanuts. Diddy with a Banana is scary to deal with, mostly up close. At a farther distance they'll try to use pop guns or dash dance around waiting for you do to something. PKF is good at a mid to max distance away and will trade evenly with Bananas (note that Bananas will still count as active should you run into them after they trade with a PKF).

I don't advise going for grabs unless you're leading into it from a grab.

Diddy is extremely quick and agile both on the ground and in the air (single/double reverse pop gun cancels, Banana AGT, run & momentum into jump, etc). Lucas has a slightly smaller range and similar disjoint plus WD back -> Ftilt / Fsmash to deal with bad approaches. Your wavedash to deal with bananas is also very helpful since Lucas travels very far and can pick up bananas easily.

Upthrow Diddy until about ~40% then Dthrow should give you most of your followups (similar to fighting against Roy).
Dash attack when used correctly is a good move since it cancels Bananas and leads into pretty good combos.
Best bet is to charge smash attacks (Fsmash / Dsmash) to cover ledge / missed sweetspots on stage. I don't contest Diddy on the ledge unless I have a solid Bair spike / rising Bair ledge guard. His recovery is simply too inconsistent and not linear like Marth, Fox, Bowser or any similar character.

==

If you have specific questions feel free to ask.

 

[Kipcom]

Since I'm bored and want to gauge some more discussion out of you guys, I think I'll post my own mini MU chart for Lucas too.



(+3) 65/35
(+2) 60/40 **
(+1) 55/45 *
(0) 50/50
(-1) 45/55 *
(-2) 40/60

(-3) 35/65 N/A


- No one beats Lucas that badly to get into -3, imo. If someone WERE to be put there, I'd probably go with Marth. I think that he's is possibly Lucas' worst MU in the game. Some people in this thread think it's Sheik, and they could be right, I'm not completely sure, myself. Giving her the throw mixups back is obviously not good for us, and she already bodies every recovery option Lucas has.

- I have no idea if Puff is actually as good of a MU as some of you guys are saying, but I just threw her into the +2 section because I don't really have anything to go off of other than she can die at like 50% vs Lucas. However, what about all the other things? Lucas's throws and grabs in this MU seem like they'd be practically irrelevant. Dthrow probably stops being a combo setup on Jiggs pretty early, and we probably don't get to grab her much at all considering how she's often airborne. How do we get kill setups on this character if she's always a certain level above us? Don't her aerials beat out most of ours? I just don't know about this MU, guys. There also aren't any actual good puffs in PM other than Hbox, and I've never seen him play this MU.

- I put Samus at -1 because Esam kicked my ass once upon a time LOL. In all seriousness though, I don't know all that much about this matchup, but I don't like playing it. Throw combos are harder, She's weird to completely edgeguard (as in, hit her away from stage and actually kill her), and her crawl makes trying to hit that small hurtbox when we have a bunch of small hitboxes feel super awkward.

- No personal experience with the Olimar MU since 3.0, but Neon's always said that this MU was worse than most of us probably think, and I can see why. Pikmin make PKF irrelevant, and I'm assuming Olimar still has great combos out of his throws, similar to 3.0?

- There's no way that Peach is actually +3.

- Pikachu is either an evenish matchup or slightly in Pikachu's favor. Camping more like Falcon and Marth works a lot more than camping like an actual Lucas in this MU (which would be the typical throw out PKF in neutral, which Pika destroys you for doing). Both characters have pretty bad range on their normals, so you don't have to worry too much about getting outspaced. Pikachu definitely has Lucas beat off stage and near the ledge though.


As I continue my quest to git gud, I'm sure that my opinion on a few of these matchups will change, but I think this is good enough for now.

 

[D e l t a]

Re-doing my MU spread from earlier. *'s in front mean I have little experience / lack full knowledge
(+3) 65/35 *
(+2) 60/40 * * (+3 -> +2 for now)
(+1) 55/45 (0 -> +1) * * *
(0) 50/50 (-1 -> 0)
(-1) 45/55 *
(-2) 40/60 (-3 -> -2)

(-3) 35/65 N/A

Thought over some stuff since writing my last post a few months ago. Characters with little write-up are due to the MU being straightforward or my lack of knowledge combined with not wanting to spread mis-information. Copy/pasted some stuff from my previous post. I'll be updating this so be on the lookout.

This is probably going to turn into a long post. Sorry fam. Enjoy my soon to be completed compilation of brief MU knowledge.

Spoiler

Puff is decent in PM with great MUs against heavier characters and ability to out maneuver others such as Kirby or Luigi. Does bad against Lucas due to being combo food until death % (low as 50% from Upsmash up to 140% from Uairs, Fairs and Nairs). Dthrow combos into sweetspot Bair / spike until the point where Uthrow would begin killing. Ftilt/Fsmash zone out Jiggs, WD OoS can punish Jigg's Bair if she tries SH Bair -> fade back (-13 on shield). Her main kill setups into rest (Utilt & Uair) don't occur often at higher level of fighting Lucas due to always having active hitboxes and Lucas wanting to play more on the ground at all times. Unlike vs Spacies, Lucas can't get combo'd by upthrow -> rest and he has multiple landing options as to not get tech chased / trapped into rest. Jiggs already has enough trouble dealing with Fox, combine that with hitstun off PKF allowing for conversions into major punishes and she's going to be in for a long, uphill battle.

With the removal of guaranteed infinites, this MU is way easier. Electric hits shield stab very easy and most times will be able to hit Nana. Lucas can punish Nana extremely hard when she gets separated: powerful smash attacks, easy combos with 0 CPU DI & won't tech Dairs, allowing easy conversions for fast damage / quick kills. Nair goes thru their ice blocks and blizzard can be magnet healed / easily avoided. Only downside is the Popo chain grab that lasts until something dumb like 80%? Other than that, go crazy with tech and simply avoid getting grabbed.

Pikmin get hit by Nair and have little effect on Lucas unless a purple is thrown. PKF goes even against all pikmin, especially purple, which is his best. Bad roll & OoS options = Lucas able to pressure Oli for free. Tether grab & 0 grab armor means he doesn't have to worry about grabs. Oli's recovery is still terrible and even easier to punish now. With good DI/SDI, you can escape most of his combos without taking too much damage.

Can't CC Dsmash against competent Lucas'. Peach's range OoS is too tiny to punish safe shield pressure and turnips will go even with Fair / PKF. Lucas can punish turnip pulls very well. Her Nair and Bair are able to completely go thru PKF, but they have a tiny disjoint & range. Lucas can throw PKF easily and bait Peach to throw out attacks. Lucas decimates floaties and Peach is no exception. The main trouble would be dealing with her hovering right about PKF, but she has little air drift which makes staying out of this range easy. Or if you feel more ballsy, WD in -> Utilt / Ftilt and jumping at her with Fair (I don't recommend) are good approach options.

Somewhat unexplored, but Nair & PKF stop most of his approaches. Everything else is pretty straightforward and rely on reading movement. Lightweight = fast kills. Vertically linear recovery that can't sweetspot = charge downsmash at ledge & use both hits to guarantee a hit. Other special recoveries have a predictable angle.

Without a banana, Diddy can still put in work against Lucas. With a banana, he has the advantage over Lucas in neutral. If Lucas uses PKF and hits banana, diddy can regrab / punish the PKF end lag. If Lucas uses Fair, there's the hitlag & end lag of his aerial, which Diddy can punish with a quick grab or smash attack. Even or Diddy's favor depending on item play. Diddy has free confirms from his utilt and many ways to force a tech chase situation, which is never good for Lucas. Unless your punish game & combos are on point and you avoid Diddy very well in neutral, this MU is bad for Lucas.
Update: my training partner has been playing Diddy more and is potentially considering dropping Yoshi and switching to Diddy as his main. Our matches have been very even (close games a few times, then I'll 3 stock him and he'll 3 stock me right back).

Substitute ROB for Diddy and gyro for banana. Lasers & boost aerials do well at punishing Lucas and the extra weight + being a floaty = less free kills from Dair and relying more on grabs, which is harder to grab ROB being more aerial based. It's not too much to the MU other than avoiding ROB's boost aerials

Kirby/Ness: I've played Tetraflora countless times and I can say that Lucas confidently beats Kirby. Against Ness, it's either even or Ness' favor due to a high punish game on both sides and more guarantees.

Pikachu: I've played Jampion and Anther a few times. Both of them incredibly proficient at the MU, SDI'ing all of Lucas' multi-hit moves and great DI on the rest of his attacks. Despite this, Pika gets combo'd very easily by Lucas and dies at low % being a floaty. The average % I kill Pika at is around 100 (lowest of around 75 from OU Upsmash and highest of 130-136 from upthrow). Thunderbolts get absorbed by magnet / go even with PKF / outright beat by Lucas' Fair. Only hard part of the MU is being CG'd to roughly 35-50% and getting killed by Pika's upsmash around 70-85%. Everything else is in favor of Lucas.

 

[D e l t a]

Since I'm bored and want to gauge some more discussion out of you guys, I think I'll post my own mini MU chart for Lucas too.

- No one beats Lucas that badly to get into -3, imo. If someone WERE to be put there, I'd probably go with Marth. I think that he's is possibly Lucas' worst MU in the game. Some people in this thread think it's Sheik, and they could be right, I'm not completely sure, myself. Giving her the throw mixups back is obviously not good for us, and she already bodies every recovery option Lucas has.

I played my roommate's Marth among a number of other good Marth players. While it's an uphill battle for sure, Lucas has an insane punish game on Marth and many things that don't warrant anything less than -1 IMO. It's all about picking the right options perfectly and having good spacing or else you eat a sword to the face. I've grown to enjoy the MU to an extent.

Vs Sheik I've come to realize isn't that terrible, but still bad. Needles are the biggest threat and I've been studying and analyzing Sheik & her needle play to work around this. I'll try to get some footage recorded vs my friend so we can study and learn from it.

- I have no idea if Puff is actually as good of a MU as some of you guys are saying, but I just threw her into the +2 section because I don't really have anything to go off of other than she can die at like 50% vs Lucas. However, what about all the other things? Lucas's throws and grabs in this MU seem like they'd be practically irrelevant. Dthrow probably stops being a combo setup on Jiggs pretty early, and we probably don't get to grab her much at all considering how she's often airborne. How do we get kill setups on this character if she's always a certain level above us? Don't her aerials beat out most of ours? I just don't know about this MU, guys. There also aren't any actual good puffs in PM other than Hbox, and I've never seen him play this MU.

It's as bad as we say. Lucas can still combo Jiggs, Dthrow works until death % like I mentioned in my post, and getting a grab is easier than you'd think in this MU (still difficult but possible). The best puff I've vsed was m2k's at Shuffle and I did everything to his Puff that I theory crafted. It's a battle of patience and not getting caught by random Bairs.

- I put Samus at -1 because Esam kicked my *** once upon a time LOL. In all seriousness though, I don't know all that much about this matchup, but I don't like playing it. Throw combos are harder, She's weird to completely edgeguard (as in, hit her away from stage and actually kill her), and her crawl makes trying to hit that small hurtbox when we have a bunch of small hitboxes feel super awkward.

It's a really simple MU if you can avoid missiles. I've played our local Samus player a number of times and I have a little experience playing against Skigh (2nd best Melee Samus in MI). Lucas doesn't kill Samus as easy due to her weight, but her fall speed results in Uthrow still killing pretty low. She's also easy to juggle and trap her landings. Samus has few tools to deal with PKF and must resort to shielding and WD OoS for the most part, else she gets combo'd hard. Use PKF to rack on some extra damage or PKT1 if Samus is very far offstage. Aim the tail just above her head so that her bomb jump sends her into the tail. Don't contest Samus at the ledge much since her ledge hop Fair is really good and UpB has some awkward hitboxes.

- No personal experience with the Olimar MU since 3.0, but Neon's always said that this MU was worse than most of us probably think, and I can see why. Pikmin make PKF irrelevant, and I'm assuming Olimar still has great combos out of his throws, similar to 3.0?

Little fighting experience, but I know a ton about the character. He sucks compared to Brawl where I mained him, so I have yet to find this MU difficult as a result since Lucas can abuse all of Olimar's weaknesses. I studied the character and his changes to PM and found everything was nerfed, save for Uair becoming a single hit rather than a multi-hit move. Although PKF will damage pikmin and can kill them, Lucas' Nair is godlike vs pikmin. Olimar's weight & fall speed make him susceptible to getting combo'd to death way easier than most of the cast.

- There's no way that Peach is actually +3.

Updated after some thought.

- Pikachu is either an evenish matchup or slightly in Pikachu's favor. Camping more like Falcon and Marth works a lot more than camping like an actual Lucas in this MU (which would be the typical throw out PKF in neutral, which Pika destroys you for doing). Both characters have pretty bad range on their normals, so you don't have to worry too much about getting outspaced. Pikachu definitely has Lucas beat off stage and near the ledge though.

Agreed. Jampion played very well against me at Shuffle since he trained with you a bit. I try to be unbiased when I talk about Lucas v Pika since the only two pikachu players I've fought are very well versed in the matchup. It doesn't help that Anther is also our #1 PR.

As I continue my quest to git gud, I'm sure that my opinion on a few of these matchups will change, but I think this is good enough for now.

Same.