Need some critique on my Marth. :D

Ndot · Nov 3, 2009

What up Marth boards? I need some critique on my Marth. It has been getting difficult for me to improve by myself nowadays, as I don't have all the answers to what I do wrong or what to do, and I need advice from you guys.

Just a note, 99% of the time, everytime I jump into the stage from the ledge its usually a mistake and was meant to be something else like waveland on stage or ledgehop attack. It might be my controller that messes up or just me, I need to fix that. Just so you know.

Thank you for your time.

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 3, 2009

Don't approach with double aerials. They're too easy to shield grab or otherwise punish.

At 1:12, you shoulda just let him die, even if you had to trade stock. You were at a much higher percent, and had the lead to boot.

Your platform teching is a little predictable. You always tech to the point farthest away from where you landed. Might want to look into that.

You seem to be having a problem against the Illusion recovery. Just jab him out of it, and when he drops, drop down and gimp him.

Learning to smash DI out of Fox's uair would be a good thing.

You seem a little predictable in general when you're pressured. I'd suggest watching some of these matches and guessing at what you're going to do next. If you can always guess it, there's most likely a problem.

Oh, and when you throw to fsmash, you have a slight bit of hesitation. You need to either start fsmashing immediately, or switching to dtilt. Dtilt is actually a really good option, because it's fast enough so that you can chase them down even if they do tech and you whiff.

If you need to recover fast, air dodge. It might seem like hitting your opponent with your Dolphin Slash is good, but it's slow, and generally does not pay off.

Or you can fast fall, then Dolphin Slash. Up to you.

When you edge guard, you seem to have a very set conception of what you're going to do already. Don't. You miss kill opportunities because you're busy doing what you think you should be doing, rather than what would actually work.

Your dthrow turnaround dtilts aren't fast enough. You can switch to Dancing Blade instead, or just... be faster at the turnaround.

Your DI could use a little work.

Europhoria · Nov 4, 2009

You roll way too much Scott. More wavedash out shield

Ndot · Nov 4, 2009

Thanks, Elvenarrow and Mike. I will keep those suggestions in mind and will work on fixing them up.

The forward b illusion into me catches me off guard, because I play Wang a lot, and before he almost always did it into the ledge, but now he does it into me so I'm not used to it, I will fix this and **** him for doing that lolz.

You guys got any suggestions for those Falcon matches? I suck at this matchup, and I fear this matchup more than against Sheik lol. All those attacks are overwhelming hitting me around. D:

Europhoria · Nov 4, 2009

You roll into a lot of his stuff, like he'll hit you and then aim to follow up at your roll point. Be patient with him against your shield and make smart use of wave dash to keep your spacing and punish **** out of shield.
You also don't need to dance around his tech so much; it's not like Fox where he can just get up and instantly jew you so you have to wait out his first move and then punish. Falcon's tech is awful, just stand within grab range facing where he'll tech and wherever he goes just run after him a grab directly... stuff like that is good.

Against Chris specifically. Let him combo you, he'll try to go for some super combo and end up missing and killing himself

Ndot · Nov 4, 2009

Cool, thanks Mike. Lol, its true about the super combo thing.

Whats the fastest or best thing I can do after I dthrow falcon back, and he DIs into me and jumps back at me with a knee to protect himself. Would fsmash be fast enough, or should I just turn around jab or dtilt?

Ugh, I keep messing up wavedashes to sidesteps T_T.

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 4, 2009

I don't get that. Falcon's tech - frame-wise - is the same as pretty much everyone else's.

Ndot, in that situation, Counter =P Seriously, it'll kill him and he'll stop trying that in a hurry.

You double jump waaay too much against Falcon. His uair and stuff will make you regret that right quick =P Stay grounded, unless you have a reason to be in the air.

Being in center stage probably isn't the best idea. He can just run back and forth, hammering at you. Instead, position yourself about... a dash length away from the edge, where you have enough room to move about, but if he tries to cross up through you, he'll get trapped with his back to the edge.

Yeah, that's the main problem I see. You're trying to run down Falcon, which just won't work because you don't really outprioritize him that much and he's... well, faster than you are.

In terms of your movement game, I think I see really short wavedashes thrown into your dash dance. I can't really tell 'cause the sound's a little desynched. Really, you want long wavedashes, with the short movements controlled through pure dash dance. Marth's wavedash is fifteen frames of lag, which you're really going to feel against Falcon, and honestly, unless you have a really good reason to wavedash that close to Falcon, you shouldn't be doing it.

Generally speaking, wavedashing isn't that great, in terms of your movement game.

Europhoria · Nov 4, 2009

No, just counter. When you throw him off the ledge you have the option of wd off with f-air or counter. If he jumps for the ledge, he dies to f-air but obviously avoids the counter. If he comes up with a move he gets countered and spiked, which is beaten by him going for the ledge.

50/50

You can be aggressive vs. Falcon, you just have to make good choices. PKM told me it's better to attack him then camp and I kinda agree >_> I'd rather Falcon didn't get a chance to start up, just attack intelligently.

Even if you miss the grab on his tech, you're still pretty safe and he has nothing quick out of his tech like the shine.

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 4, 2009

I camp like crazy against Falcons =P He's just so fast.

In terms of tech chasing, I believe the advice I got was to plan for the straight up tech. That's every character's fastest option, so be ready for that. Then go from there.

If you have trouble timing it (especially against like spacies) use the Dancing Blade. It allows you to space yourself out so you don't get punished if you whiff, and you can keep attacking with it, which is gives you more chances to catch them.

I did it that all the way through my friend's spot dodge to shine phase.

Europhoria · Nov 4, 2009

Most people camp in every scenario. If the Falcon starts to approach you, you'll have to be more defensive because their **** will come out first, this applies in a lot of scenarios. If they camp themselves, then you'd be surprised at how open they tend to be.

A general concept with Marth and approaching:
1 - Marth Approaches vs. Approaching Fox/Falco/Falcon/Peach/Sheik/you get the idea = Marth loses
2 - Marth Camps vs. Approaching Fox/Falco/etc. = Marth wins
3 - Marth Camps vs. Camping Fox/Falco/etc. = Marth loses
4 - Marth Approaches vs. Camping Fox/Falco/etc. = Even or Marth wins (exception is Sheik, you still lose >_>)

If you wanna approach in scenario 1 all you can do is run at them and shield and hope they don't grab you. Well, you could also start a n-air from super far away and hope they run into it, or just undershoot by a lot and run or something >_> but the latter I think falls into category 2 anyways.

Edit: There's a certain point on the tier list where that all goes to hell, and it becomes a scenario of no matter what a good Marth does he wins.

Ndot · Nov 4, 2009

Cool thanks Mike and Elven, very helpful info. :D

Those scenarios are helpful, I'll keep those in mind when I face those characters or whatever. Good to know.

When I face Falcon, I just feel like I can do very little to him, just upthrow techchase atm, where if I miss, he gets away. But if Falcon gets me in a grab or hits me, I get comboed to oblivion even if i DI away cause he follows up on me. I switch my DI up around a bit now, and it throws him off, so thats good I guess. I should start juggling Falcon more with uairs, I feel very much in control that way.

Against Falcon's DD, I like to use dash attack, its so good if you hit with it. Overshooting the grab is awesome too. I just overshoot the dash attack cause I know that he is going to dash away like another block or so and DD back to grab me or whatver. It usually sets up to utilts, fsmash, or tech chase.

Edit: @ Elven: For my movement game, I really like my movements, I move really fluently. I use a mix of short and long wavedashes along with the DD. But I made a lot of wavedash mistakes, I had random sidesteps and airdodges lol, I guess I was just nervous or w/e. But I think you are right, in terms of the wavedash against Falcon, its probably a bit more lag than I want. I will DD more against Falcons. Thx brah. :D

Niko45 · Nov 4, 2009

Yes dash attacks are money in the bank vs falcon. If he's aggressive retreat fair a lot and catch him coming in. Once you get grabs ALWAYS throw him towards the closest ledge. If he can't use the full length of his tech roll away he can't escape your regrab tech chase. Remember that. And even if he manages to get away, falcon with his back up against the edge is basically paralyzed. He'll pretty much try to full hop over you, roll into you, or fly right at you. If you just wait patiently at slight distance when a cfalcon has his back to the edge he will do something stupid. Just react.

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 4, 2009

See, that's why I said stay near the edge =P If you grab Falcon there, dthrow. It severely limits where he can go in terms of techs, so you can grab him fairly easily no matter where they go.

Most people will tech towards you twice, so throw them back towards the edge. Then they'll tech away, so run in and fthrow them off, nail them with a dtilt, and it's smooth sailing from there.

The problem with approaching Falcon is that he can beat out a lot of your moves. Raptor Boost/nair will eat through your nair, nair will go through your fair oftentimes, and you really can't afford to trade or get hit like that, because he capitalizes much better.

Use the dtilt. It's a good approach, since you can grab off of it, and it isn't as telegraphed and punishable.

The problem with short wavedashes in your dash dance is that they don't really do anything for you. You could move the same distance with your dash, and you're just putting in frames where you're locked into a movement. So there's just... no reason to use them.

Niko45 · Nov 4, 2009

elvenarrow3000 said:
In terms of tech chasing, I believe the advice I got was to plan for the straight up tech. That's every character's fastest option, so be ready for that. Then go from there.

This is exactly right. It also puts you in position to jab reset if they miss the tech on purpose.

Ndot · Nov 4, 2009

Good point Elven

, camping near ledge is good, and I can gimp them too.

I do use dtilt as an approach, but sometimes they just jump over it and knee me in the face lol. Utilt is awesome against their aerial approaches, but its so laggy if I miss.

I will use more of longer wavedashes and more of DD now. :D I need to incorporate jab reset and be consistent with it, I just don't react fast enough to seeing people not teching lol.

Also, what do I do against anyone that jabs fast like Falcon, Fox, Falco, etc. When ever they get inside my range, and jab me, I feel so helpless, their jabs are faster than everything I can do and then they just grab me out of it or do some attack. I know I can CC grab it, what other options do I have?

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 4, 2009

Haha, you can be a jerk and fair them every time they jab you. Uair works too.

Approaching Falcon sucks. 'Swhy I refrain.

Jab resetting isn't a must. You can always just go up to them and follow their roll/shield grab if they get up on the spot.

Ndot · Nov 5, 2009

lol yea Elven, I used to do that thing where I get jabbe to aerial thing to them. But I have forgotten about it. I used to do dair to grab because they just stay in that one spot, whereas fair or uair hits them away, but I think all of them are good.

I played against Falcon again yesterday, and I feel much more confident in the matchup and it is much easier after all of this discussion. Thx guys. :D

I always use autocancel nair, but I used to do shffl nair long time ago. How good is shffl nair nowadays against the metagame? What are its uses for approaching, I know its decent for comboing a bit.

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 5, 2009

It's really not as good as the fair for approaches or comboing. You can use it on a shield and have enough frame advantage for the grab, supposedly, and it's nice for cross ups, I guess.

KirbyKaze · Nov 5, 2009

F-throw WD

It's like D-throw but better!

ArcNatural · Nov 5, 2009

elvenarrow3000 said:
Haha, you can be a jerk and fair them every time they jab you. Uair works too.

Approaching Falcon sucks. 'Swhy I refrain.

Jab resetting isn't a must. You can always just go up to them and follow their roll/shield grab if they get up on the spot.

I just DI jabs up and either fair or waveland >.>;

If it's against someone I know jabs a lot it's just getting into the mindset of spamming CC grab in those situations.

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 5, 2009

I get so frustrated when jab resets don't work, because I rarely even think to use them, and when I do and they don't work, I feel cheated.

So I don't use it at all.

Halloween · Nov 8, 2009

I'm the same exact way elven. I'm tryin to bring it into my game slowly tho.

S l o X · Nov 8, 2009

DI those throws the opposite way, you're getting combo'd big time. (CFALC M1)

Punish his techs. Half the time you're going for a re-grab when you can be fsmashing him off the stage.
Oh and DI those N-airs away from where he's hitting you (???)

Since I don't have much if any experience in these matchups I'm guessing I may have said something wrong but I think you'll get the point. :D

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 8, 2009

Unless you can kill outright with an fsmash, grabs are generally better. They just give you more options.

S l o X · Nov 8, 2009

It's better to be safe then sorry.

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 8, 2009

Fsmash isn't safer. Especially if you're not killing with it.

Niko45 · Nov 9, 2009

I mean, I'd never say ONLY fsmash when its going to kill. Falcon can DI the offstage fthrow away, avoid the dtilt, and sweetspot the ledge with their second jump. Fsmashing them off can lead to death or force them to recover in a way that they will continue to be hit. If you get them in that position where they can either tech roll in and get regrabbed or do anything else and get fsmashed you should mix those in. Even if fthrow to dtilt connects it is also still sweet spottable at low percents.

Fortress | Sveet · Nov 9, 2009

If they get hit by the dtilt at any % they cannot 2nd jump regrab (unless maybe they super SDI in or something).

And fsmash really is worth it sometimes. Say you're planking the edge and they are trying to take it from you because you're a gay marth ******. They do their little dance around the edge pretending to jump out, and you jump WD on the stage fsmash them off the way you just were.

I won a match in pools at my last tournament with that strat. Random fsmashes are totally worth it.

Niko45 · Nov 9, 2009

They definitely can regrab after dtilt.

elvenarrow3000 · Nov 9, 2009

Okay, to clarify.

On the tech, it's fairly unlikely that you'll get a tipper hit on the fsmash, since he'll most likely be moving towards you. Which means that unless he's at a high percentage your fsmash will put you into lag and give him a weak bump, and if he recovers using just his second jump, you lose a lot of pressure and possibly eat a ledge hop nair, starting a potential combo on you.

Whereas if you grab and throw instead, you're building up percentage and keeping him in the same situation, in which you have the threat of fsmash, but without the risks.

So if you can fsmash and have enough breathing space to set up an edge guard to kill them, sure, but otherwise, not such a great idea.

Also if I connected with the dtilt by the ledge, I'd immediately go for the edge hog or run off fair/bair them.

Ndot · Nov 9, 2009

Yea, just regrab in the tech chase at lower percents to mid percents and fsmash to finish off at higher percents or to edgeguard.

Random fsmashes are ok, but just don't get caught lagging and your opponent is close by, you're gona get owned lol. If you know you're going to hit, by all means go for it, at low percents, fsmash to tech chase is cool.

Need some critique on my Marth. :D

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