Need SERIOUS help with my Sonic's Dash Dance Pivot

[Sagen du Smash]

I want to do this on a regular basis. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTxsdLpnU2A

But as of now despite practice, I just cannot master the technique. I can get Sonic to foxtrot, but when I jam the control stick the other way, I cannot get him to long range dash dance pivot consistently enough to use in a match. Any Sonic mains have a way to master this technique?

 

[Kinzer]

... Uhm, jam?

You do realize that to do DDP, you need to initiate a Dash Dance from your foxtrot, right? You can't just go the opposite way straight your first foxtrot, you need to do a run the way you originally went from the first foxtrot, and then very quickly flick the control stick the other way (Dash-dance) to run the other way.

For the Ley-man, that means:

< (delay) - < - > movements on the D-Pad.

There's no other way to get this down than with practice. Take it from somebody who was just as confused as anybody else when they're first looking at it that you'll feel like a complete dumb *** once you realize how easy it is to do in practice. Consistency is still an issue but I can do it.

Edit: I'm asking you nicely. Could you please stop making new threads whenever something new comes up for you? Chances are, somebody else knows/can help you if you just go to the rFAQ/social... most likely it'll be me to see your inquiry; but there are others that can usually fill my place in the case I can't get to your case fast enough, if at all due to limitations of my knowledge/skill.

 

[JayBee]

dude, you could have just send me a message on youtube or even on smashboards. i usually do my best to make it as simple as possible to explain sonic things, but kinzer did a good job on his own. I got nothing else to say since kinzer said it all. Steak.

 

[Trillion]

Yeah Kinzer nailed this, but just in case, I'll try saying it in another way.

I want to do this on a regular basis. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTxsdLpnU2A

But as of now despite practice, I just cannot master the technique. I can get Sonic to foxtrot, but when I jam the control stick the other way, I cannot get him to long range dash dance pivot consistently enough to use in a match. Any Sonic mains have a way to master this technique?

The bolded is where you are going wrong.

Just before you jam the control stick the other way, you have to push it the original way once very quickly first.

So, something like:

Left, delay for fox trot, left, delay for fox trot, left, right

Before you jam the stick right, you have to first input one last quick flick to the left.

Do not think of this as one single tech. This is actually two techs being put together to make something cooler. You are not just fox trotting and you are not just dash dancing. You are combining a fox trot and a dash dance to CREATE a pivot. But you have to dash dance with the first direction of the dash dance being in the same direction as the fox trot.

 

[Exceladon City]

.
For the Ley-man, that means:

< (delay) - < - > movements on the D-Pad.

There's no other way to get this down than with practice. Take it from somebody who was just as confused as anybody else when they're first looking at it that you'll feel like a complete dumb *** once you realize how easy it is to do in practice. Consistency is still an issue but I can do it.

See when people explain ****, they don't do it correctly. You explained it correctly.

That's what I need to see when inputs are involved.

 

[JayBee]

i'm starting to think this thread needs to stay open. or if not this one, a thread similar. What I mean is that we have a thread dedicated to having the sonic community as a whole get better at DDP in matches. Not only the technical aspect, but even when you are doing it too much, which can take you out of your game if you aren't fully mastered in it. for example, I show I am a sonic player who really is interested in adding DDP. I go to this thread, saying such, then I show vids of me in matches, where the focus is more on the usage and the skill level of my DDP. then people post, discuss what im doing wrong, when i'm doing it, and how to incorperate it better. Ithen take this input, practice them, then later post another vid or so, hopefully to spot improvement, and seek more input.

This could help get sonics more confident in using ddp in matches. It really feels like that most know about it, but then we still have folks that really dont. and even thoe ones that do are not confident in it to do it in matches. so maybe this will help them get more confident in DDP?

what do you say to that sonic boards?

 

[Exceladon City]

Sounds like a good idea. Although we should re-vamp the tech thread. Just focus on the technical aspects of 2k11 Sonic.

 

[darkNES386]

Failure.... my posting skills are gone.

 

[darkNES386]

just throwing this out there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fH89EJFSqY

Also, the frame data is probably wrong... but this is something I did a long time ago:
Ground Movement Thread

Does anyone use true pivots? I feel like walking is just so much more useful.

 

[Kinzer]

... Those are true pivots?

What exactly is the application of them, and the input (in ley-man terms please)? I do them by accident a bit when I'm trying to DDP, but I can't find out how to do those consistently, let alone apply them in-match.

I'm thinking... True-pivoted RAR Bair/retreating Forward air?

 

[Tesh]

This technique is old and useless. Lock plz?

 

[Kinzer]

This technique is old and useless. Lock plz?

Could it at least wait until I get my question answered please?

*Whistle.*

 

[Trillion]

Just because something is old does not mean it is useless. Dash Dance Pivots can be extremely useful in matches, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Fox trot > DDP > F-Smash?
Bait opponent's approach > Fox trot away to bait their wiffed attack > DDP > dash attack their lag
DDP > short hop up-airs

It has a lot of possibilities in unique situations that are so abundant that I don't want to waste time typing them all.

 

[Tesh]

I highly doubt DDP takes less time than just shielding then running in the other direction. Its fancy but does it really do anything for you?

 

[Kinzer]

I want to approach Olimar when you have a depleted shield.

There you go, one example.

Besides that, it takes you a solid 7 frames to drop your shield, and there's not a damn thing you can do before you are able to act again. That's enough time for Meta Knight to DSmash you. Don't even get me started on what else there is

You can go into a run after the skid animation, and they can be jump-canceled in any case the first action (DDP/runs) commit you too much. Sure you can still jump out of shield, but Sonic's cannot really turn on a dime in the air, which will leave you relatively where you were after trying to jump OoS from a run-

You know what? @#$% the BS, stop trying to discredit DDP. There are applications for it, and going so far as to discourage its use to non-existent/outshined by another is the last thing you want to do when you're trying to evaluate a character.

 

[Tesh]

Yes but with shield stopping I can accidentally powershield that Dsmash and then Fsmash him. Happens all the time.

 

[Tenki]

If anything, don't discredit DDP on frame data.

At least, the way I use it, I usually do a retreating foxtrot or two then turn it around to get in range for an fsmash or something. The problem I run into the most with it is that when I use it to retreat, I usually end up in range of the opponent before their attack/approach is over >_>; In that sense, it's probably too fast.

I don't see much success using it by pretending to go in then turning around to retreat, since I seem to get more wifi play and thus lack accuracy. When I played Speed online a few weeks ago, he did get that just-out-of-range turnaround to trick me once. It was pretty good.
-------

Running forward and shielding --> chance to powershield. chance to get grabbed.
Running away and shielding --> ???

Running forward and doing turnaround --> Opponent might put guard down, but similarly has a chance of hitting you before you can do anything. Dash pivot cancel possible.
Running away and doing turnaround --> Camera catches up with you, but otherwise neutral state. Dash pivot cancel possible.

Running forward and doing screech stop --> Neutral state (you can shield, but they can also attack/grab)
Running away and doing screech stop --> Neutral state (can bait/dodge an attack, but you're not committed to go back)

Foxtrotting forward --> chance to DDP to dodge an attack; similar chance of getting hit. Can fsmash.
Foxtrotting away --> opponent can put guard down/start chasing/approaching, except you can quickly turn around and get back in there with DDP. Mental commitment can make you go back in too quickly. Can fsmash/stutterstep. Possibility of 'pushing' camera.

 

[BlueAuraEX]

To be honest, Dash-Dancing is extremely useful, but if you truly think about it, it's risk factors are so high, just doing the basic manuevars are more reliable. I'm not dissing the DDP...Just saying that we usually always talk about Sonic's reliability...So...And don't even try making good arguements on MK's case. I'm not gonna go into an MK is Overpowered rant, but guys let's face it. MK has so many punishment tactics it's unreal. I'd say we should just forget trying to defeat MK, and focus on maybe characters like Marth? (The latest Sonic counter I believe) Or maybe Snake, and Diddy? Etc. I dunno...I tried using this DDP a few times, and compared to my normal gameplay style, it messed me up more than just simply Shielding/Dodging. I hope no-one takes this offensive...Just trying to prove a point somewhat.

 

[Kinzer]

Man, aren't you a brilliant one?

No sarcasm.

Just a shame MK will never get banned at this point so we may as well figure out some ways to deal with him, if anything.

On the other hand though, you cannot discredit any single one of Sonic's options; no matter how unreliable they are. Just because you don't get many chances to (properly) apply them mid-match doesn't mean they're not there. There are some cases in which knowing how to DDP will grant you some extra punishment options or give you some "aborts."

 

[BlueAuraEX]

Man, aren't you a brilliant one?

No sarcasm.

Just a shame MK will never get banned at this point so we may as well figure out some ways to deal with him, if anything.

On the other hand though, you cannot discredit any single one of Sonic's options; no matter how unreliable they are. Just because you don't get many chances to (properly) apply them mid-match doesn't mean they're not there. There are some cases in which knowing how to DDP will grant you some extra punishment options or give you some "aborts."

I'd definitely say a DDP's uses come in when you're opponent's trying to anticipate your next move, and then mindscrew them, doing something completely different afterwards. Sometimes, doing something backwards can give you a surprising advantage as well after a DDP's executed. (HA anyone? Don't kill me Kinz! *hides*) However using it as a type of dodge I would "never" recommend, as that has about...A 27% chance of actually working? Since most characters in Brawl have crazy range, whilst poor Sonic has quite the short range, unless chained with a dash/spin, which still only rises it's reliability to about 35%...Kinda low if ya ask me personally. I may use it once in a blue moon as a dodge tech, but til I find more uses on it, this DDP tech is definitely gonna be a next MindGame Training for me.

 

[Tesh]

Kinzer. I like DDP as much as I like ASCPDT or SDCPDT or the DBZ combo. Its really cool and flashy. But can you get me some frame data that would help me believe that its better than just shield stopping? We need more movement frame data. I feel it is very important for our character.

I DDP DACUS sometimes, but its not like its better than just shielding and then doing a DACUS the other way.

 

[Kinzer]

... Movement frame data?

What exactly do you want me to look for? I wouldn't know where to start.

 

[Tenki]

Something like...

try 1: running away and screech stop, and then dashing forward and screech stop ASAP (use IASA frames?).

try 2: running away and shielding ASAP, then dashing forward and shielding ASAP.

try 3: foxtrot away and DDP ASAP (and stop counting when you reach the same distance shield/screech stop get to)

 

[JayBee]

DBZ combo? did I miss something while i was gone. never heard of this... i think...
how much damage does it do? over 9000?

 

[WedginatorX]

@EX
Ddp definitely ****s with your playstyle if you aren't used to it. Shadofiend and I (although I don't really have many or maybe any vids in which I did this) use/used a lot of ddp in our playstyles. And espy uses it often of course.

 

[Tesh]

You trip less with shield dashing because its 2 dashes instead of 3.

What Tenki said btw, Kinzer. I just wanna see what gets the job done faster and possibly with the most freedom to cancel out and change your plan.

Kojin, I believe the DBZ combo is the Air Dash teleport to aerial. I do that to people on brinstar sometimes, its funny and flashy but I was comparing it to this because I feel its not needed at all or important. Though I would be happy to be proven wrong by Kinzer. I know how to DDP, but I don't use it except for reverse stalled DACUS.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh yeah, that's right.

I had forgotten all about the DBZ combo.

Speaking of which, I wonder if there's anything that affects how it ends up.

Like, do you end up somewhere else if the slant of the slope you left off was at a higher angle? What about the speed of the Spindash? Does anything else like the area around the point of impact affect how high up, or just where exactly Sonic will be after he makes contact?

It is unreliable in the sense that most of that isn't known, add some Directional influence factors into that equation, plus some stage limitations, and you have yourself some neat tricks/gimmicks if you will.

Anyway, I'll see what I can find about DDP in due time. It'll be weird though, frame advance tends to make movement pretty different, and there isn't any unified concrete data that tells you "it takes character X y frames to make a turn from a full-dash" or yada yada yada. I suppose I'll go ahead and start with Sonic, and leave it up to others to do other characters; perhaps myself after I do Sonic first and find the time.motivation.

Should I just post my findings here or leave it somewhere else/make an entirely new thread for that?

 

[Tesh]

You could bump that old thread you had if you find something. I believe it was called "we should look at some things". Eventually it will have to find its way into the guide and since that thread isn't in our stickies, it shouldn't be forgotten.

I have a hunch about the DBZ combo. It seems to be directly links to how long you have been in the air before hitting someone. It might just be the game auto correcting and trying to put you where you would have been if the slope had continued at the same angle forever. Super steep slopes and Sonic skyrockets above the blast zone.

 

[Tenki]

@dbzcombo:
slope theory sounds cool. I haven't checked but that makes sense

@DDP
Just from feel, in terms of how long it takes you to change directions and pass your original position:

turning around is slower than shield dash, which is slower than screech stop, which is slower than DDP.

DDP is faster and its slide length/ability to do a second foxtrot depends on how long you since you release the control stick (not when you actually hold forward), otherwise you'll start fullrunning again: the fastest possible tap-and-release will get you the shortest foxtrot (in distance and time to be able to do a second one).

This might be unique to Sonic because of the way he runs, I think - he is the only character who can do the ft slide / "grind".

Falcon's foxtrot always seems to be the same length, for example.

As far as ground options go, if the opponent is inside the range of your last foxtrot, then all you can do is roll forward, side b, or jump forward. Of course, if you full run/hold it long enough, it's just a regular run, so you can do everthing lol.

 

[Tesh]

Eh, well its definitely a triangle.

Triangle Air Dash

Which means people will always have to DI straight up for the DBZ combo to work with anything but dair and homing attack/ASC.