Official Mysterious Arsenal - Greninja Information & AT Thread [Updated 2.16: 1.1.4]

FullMoon

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Something I've been wondering for a while that is rather unexplored as is:

Spiking people with Substitute.

I want to know if it's possible to use downward at ledge height and still survive and if not, what's the minimum height we need to be to survive it.

I've thinking about it and I think using Substitute like that can be a pretty good way of turning an edgeguarding situation around.
 

Shack

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How are you guys edge guarding with the ninja? I find it hard relying on bair in some match ups.
Hydro Pump can almost always be used to get some free damage and hopefully push them somewhere they don't want to be. Also trumping the edge grab works nicely.
 

Space thing

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Something I've been wondering for a while that is rather unexplored as is:

Spiking people with Substitute.

I want to know if it's possible to use downward at ledge height and still survive and if not, what's the minimum height we need to be to survive it.

I've thinking about it and I think using Substitute like that can be a pretty good way of turning an edgeguarding situation around.
I remember I checking this and it was possible at ledge height if you still had a double jump. From the looks of things, you could probably get out of some situations pretty effectively with Substitute, but hitting the opponent might be difficult. I'm not too sure though -- I didn't do that much testing really.
 

Makani

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Not sure how many people know of this, if any, but early this morning I was watching aMSa's stream and saw him doing a strange version of a Perfect Pivot. So I went to the lab and tried to figure out how he did it and I think i've figured it out.

You start by dashing in the opposite direction you want to slide in, then turn around to dash in the direction you do want to slide in, afterwards before your initial dash ends you input your tilt/smash/special/whatever.

It seems to be based heavily on the same concept as Perfect Pivot in that your distance will be determined by how good your initial dash is. I also don't know if it works without the dash reversal, need to test.
If this is a known tech and i'm entirely wrong on how it's performed let me know.
So, some months ago I was discussing this and just recently TournyLocator's series "Tech of the week" went over this and I think it'd be nice to bring it back up for the frog considering his FTilt got a buff so follow ups could be actually possible with it now. Has anyone been using this tech at all? I haven't really used it outside of a few times but only because I haven't really been playing as much due to a vacation lately.
 
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CHOMPY

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I'm thinking of picking Greninja back up again. One of the things I'm having issues with right now is how do I get the timing down on the ledge trump? It seems like every time I do it, he fast falls into the bottom part of the stage instead of grabbing the ledge. Is it worth learning to ledge trump with Greninja?
 

FullMoon

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Ledge Trumping and so removing their ledge invencibility allows you to get a free Meteor D-Air on regrab or, knowing that, they might try to recover high and end up putting themselves into Up-Smash range.

I don't ledgetrump with Greninja all that often myself though
 

Shack

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I'm thinking of picking Greninja back up again. One of the things I'm having issues with right now is how do I get the timing down on the ledge trump? It seems like every time I do it, he fast falls into the bottom part of the stage instead of grabbing the ledge. Is it worth learning to ledge trump with Greninja?
You're probably holding down too long. Practice in training with slo mo and also try it from leaning off of the edge instead of a full run first.
 

Lemonade Candy

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Ledge trump is something i wish i could do. How do you do it so well? I mean it is hard to do it on 3ds for me. But because i dont practice it I dont do it. :(
 
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I wavebounce and b reverse shurikens all of the time in neutral. As a character with such great mobility, being able to change momentum so quickly and unpredictably is great.
 

Shack

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Can greninja's neutral b benefit from this? Im having a hard time doing this on 3ds.
Yes he does benefit from wavebouncing. I really wish he could cancel/store his charge though. Even without that, it is a nice fake out to use and recovers pretty fast to where you might get some follow ups depending on how they reacted.
 

AlexAnthonyD

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I rarely ledge trump as well and I do perfectly fine without it, not really crucial in Greninja's playstyle IMO.
Only after recently watching some videos (yours included) have I seen more people trying to ledge trump with Greninja. Given his excellent options standing about a full forward smash away from the ledge I find it a waste of positional advantage to go for the trump when most people will be able to easily read you for it and roll safely away. It is of course a nice trick to have in your back pocket against that special type of opponent who has the tendency to hold on for their full invincibility, then you can perform all the aforementioned shenanigans.
 
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What options do you guys use when your opponent is on the ledge? I feel like I don't apply the pressure that I should toward an opponent hanging on ledge. What moves do we have in our arsenal that are tailored to these purposes?
 

Lemonade Candy

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How are you guys using hydro pump? Any weird qualities?

I know people are using it to punish air dodges now. I try to use it at the edge and aim the hydro pump diagonally so that it covers a low angle. Not much success seeing how im either missing or too early.
 

Makani

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How are you guys using hydro pump? Any weird qualities?

I know people are using it to punish air dodges now. I try to use it at the edge and aim the hydro pump diagonally so that it covers a low angle. Not much success seeing how im either missing or too early.
I use it as a mixup by short-hopping into a horitonzal hydro pump and zig-zag, or as an escape just horizontally hydro pumping away from someone. I also use it as a juggler by delaying someone's descent or just straight delaying them from where they're going in general. Check out my videos. https://www.youtube.com/user/CapsLockFury/videos
 

AlexAnthonyD

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What options do you guys use when your opponent is on the ledge? I feel like I don't apply the pressure that I should toward an opponent hanging on ledge. What moves do we have in our arsenal that are tailored to these purposes?
The final hit of a fully charged shireken is angled downward perfectly to hit someone on the ledge once their invincibility frames where off. Try to time it to reach the ledge right when your opponent becomes vulnerable, I have gotten lots of kills this way. Throwing a fully charged shireken also covers 2 of your opponents options for roll and stand up, leaving them to either drop down (very disadvantageous position, their best approach at this point to jump right below the ledge and lead in with a forward air for most characters). Or jump, which leaves you open to smack them in the face with our forward air, neutral air, or RAR if you're quick enough. This is all if you space yourself well enough so your shireken hits the ledge on its final hit, if you find yourself closer to the ledge when your opponent is there, you still have options, mainly smash and tilt.

If you predict a roll or stand up, down smash is king, it covers both sides and comes out fairly quick. If you predict a stand up, forward smash is even better. If you really don't know what your opponent is going to do, just toss out a bunch of SSFF and leave your options open for whatever.
 

Crudele

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can you guys dance trot with greninja well? The pace is very awkward.
I was actually thinking about posting about this, but mostly about greninjas foxtrot cancel (unless that's the same thing as dance trot? idk). I found a greninja on fg (oddly enough) who had his foxtrot canceling down and his footsies were hella real. I feel like standard greninja mind games typically consist of shorthopping around to stay unpredictable, but I think being able to easily weave out and back in for a dash grab or dash attack could be useful.

I haven't been able to nail down the timing to his foxtrot cancel, but I'm thinking about figuring it out this weekend and practicing it with some audio cues. If I end up doing this, I'll upload it to soundcloud and post it up here.
 

Makani

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Not practical for everyone but I dash dance with my right hand on the control stick. I have very quick hand dexterity though so it's easier for me to put my right hand back in place faster than other people might.
 

Lemonade Candy

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I was actually thinking about posting about this, but mostly about greninjas foxtrot cancel (unless that's the same thing as dance trot? idk). I found a greninja on fg (oddly enough) who had his foxtrot canceling down and his footsies were hella real. I feel like standard greninja mind games typically consist of shorthopping around to stay unpredictable, but I think being able to easily weave out and back in for a dash grab or dash attack could be useful.

I haven't been able to nail down the timing to his foxtrot cancel, but I'm thinking about figuring it out this weekend and practicing it with some audio cues. If I end up doing this, I'll upload it to soundcloud and post it up here.
Do you have the replay?
 

Lemonade Candy

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Do you guys walk when approaching? Also what do you think about regarding various percent levels? I.e. your opponent is at 120% and youre at 70%.
 

free33

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Something I've been wondering for a while that is rather unexplored as is:

Spiking people with Substitute.

I want to know if it's possible to use downward at ledge height and still survive and if not, what's the minimum height we need to be to survive it.

I've thinking about it and I think using Substitute like that can be a pretty good way of turning an edgeguarding situation around.
I did this in 1.1.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmSWDbL-Qds
the spike is really useful
 
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FullMoon

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So I was looking at some data and decided to do this, it's likely incorrect but I was bored anyway.

Unless said otherwise assume these are all grabs.




Characters that can't punish N-Air OoS:

N-Air is -4 on Shield and our fastest move after landing is Jab, this means that any OoS options that's frame 7 will trade with Jab in most cases and anything later will be beaten by it. Additionally if it's frame 8 or more you can safely roll away from them.

Frame 7:

:4falcon::4ganondorf::4myfriends::4dedede::4marth::4lucina::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4palutena::4rob::4robinm::4shulk::4tlink:

Frame 8 or more:

:4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4duckhunt:
:4dk::4greninja::4link::4lucas::4olimar::4villager::4yoshi::4zelda:




Characters that can't punish but their option can only be spotdodged:

This basically means their option is frame 6, as out spotdodge is invincible on frame 2, they can bait the spotdodge out and punish you in endlag though, so do keep that in mind.

:4diddy::4fox::4mario::4drmario::4luigi::4lucario::4kirby::4megaman::4peach::4pikachu::4pit::4wiifit::4jigglypuff::4gaw::4darkpit::4ness::4ryu: (can also use Shoryuken):4sonic::4sheik::rosalina::4wario:(Corkscrew)



Characters that can still punish N-Air:

:4zss:
(Boost Kick) :4pacman: (Trampoline) :4littlemac: (Rising Uppercut) :4samus: (Screw Attack, can be shielded)
 
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Hi guys, long time no see. Remember that tech with Shadow Sneak where you start it up then jump from under a platform, and when timed right when you let go, you launch yourself at an angle? Well, I don't know if it has been discovered and shared yet, but I have a better way of doing this.

https://youtu.be/MunY5v3b9n0

It will be around halfway in the vid.
 
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