My proposed gameplay change: The Airdash

[Nasty_Nate]

I didn't see any topics about this, but I have an input that I think will make for a very fun addition to the smash series

Background: I am a melee/64 lover and used to be a regular of the melee community for years. When brawl came out, I was competitive for a few months before I realized I hated the gameplay mechanics with a passion and quit. I completely lost interest in the smash series after that, since it was clear that Sakurai's intention was a noncompetitive game, where people can simply "have a hearty laugh" (his words not mine). This changed when I got the news of who was working on the project, namely people from Gundam Extreme Vs. If you havent played that game, its a competitive 2v2 game with controls very similar to smash. It was very well made, and I began to once again have hope for the series. But what mechanics could they add to improve the gameplay? Is there something that works in other fighting games that would transition well to the new smash? Then it occurred to me...

tl;dr
Proposed Gameplay Mechanic: Replace airdodge with the airdash One of the more noticable changes from melee to brawl was the fact that you couldnt adjust your aerial momentum with an airdodge. In melee this was used for wavedashing, recovery, triangle jumping, etc, where in brawl it simply gives some invulnerability frames. I did not like this transition at all, but I believe by replacing airdodging with airdashing, we will have a fresh new system that is both competitive and fun to play

Logistics:
-Can airdash 16 directions, such as dodging in melee
-Will use second jump
-Will not prevent you from taking another action, you can cancel with an aerial

Now I know the logistics are something to be argued when the game is under development. For example, what happens when a character lands, since they probably want to exclude wavedashing? Should air-dodging be excluded at all (for example, pressing both triggers to airdodge might be a suitable replacement)? If it is, what about spot dodging? What about ground dashing too?

Regardless, thinking of the airdashing mechanism alone seems pretty fun. Imagine a samus jumping toward you and doing a dashback missile, or a marth continuing an air combo that would be too far to reach without it. Falcon jumping and instantly changing momentum to stomp your head!!

It seems like an incredibly fun change for me. Let me know your input

 

[Big-Cat]

16 directions? Doesn't that seem excessive? How would you even be able to control all 16 directions. I think 8 is all you really need, perhaps with maybe a neutral input that lets you go around the character.

I think replacing the air dodge with this is an interesting one as it emphasizes the importance of an aerial footsies game without having to make it so floaty.

 

[Scar86]

I didn't see any topics about this, but I have an input that I think will make for a very fun addition to the smash series

Background: I am a melee/64 lover and used to be a regular of the melee community for years. When brawl came out, I was competitive for a few months before I realized I hated the gameplay mechanics with a passion and quit. I completely lost interest in the smash series after that, since it was clear that Sakurai's intention was a noncompetitive game, where people can simply "have a hearty laugh" (his words not mine). This changed when I got the news of who was working on the project, namely people from Gundam Extreme Vs. If you havent played that game, its a competitive 2v2 game with controls very similar to smash. It was very well made, and I began to once again have hope for the series. But what mechanics could they add to improve the gameplay? Is there something that works in other fighting games that would transition well to the new smash? Then it occurred to me...

tl;dr
Proposed Gameplay Mechanic: Replace airdodge with the airdash One of the more noticable changes from melee to brawl was the fact that you couldnt adjust your aerial momentum with an airdodge. In melee this was used for wavedashing, recovery, triangle jumping, etc, where in brawl it simply gives some invulnerability frames. I did not like this transition at all, but I believe by replacing airdodging with airdashing, we will have a fresh new system that is both competitive and fun to play

Logistics:
-Can airdash 16 directions, such as dodging in melee
-Will use second jump
-Will not prevent you from taking another action, you can cancel with an aerial

Now I know the logistics are something to be argued when the game is under development. For example, what happens when a character lands, since they probably want to exclude wavedashing? Should air-dodging be excluded at all (for example, pressing both triggers to airdodge might be a suitable replacement)? If it is, what about spot dodging? What about ground dashing too?

Regardless, thinking of the airdashing mechanism alone seems pretty fun. Imagine a samus jumping toward you and doing a dashback missile, or a marth continuing an air combo that would be too far to reach without it. Falcon jumping and instantly changing momentum to stomp your head!!

It seems like an incredibly fun change for me. Let me know your input

I Like this Idea. I think that any move away from the clunky control's of Brawl is a step in the right direction.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

16 directions? Doesn't that seem excessive? How would you even be able to control all 16 directions. I think 8 is all you really need, perhaps with maybe a neutral input that lets you go around the character.

I think replacing the air dodge with this is an interesting one as it emphasizes the importance of an aerial footsies game without having to make it so floaty.

Everything is 16 directions in 64/melee (idk about brawl, but probably that too). Think of the control stick. Top bottom left right, the diagonals, and the middle of the flat spaces in between. Think of fox's firefox trying to sweetspot the edge. Sometimes you need to keep it on a flat space to get a perfect sweetspot

I tried looking for a vid but was unsuccessful. Watch some tourney vids and its bound to happen

 

[Big-Cat]

This is the first I've heard of this 16 directions thing. It still sounds more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Vkrm]

Would doing an attack stop your momentum? Would be cool if chars like marth could SH fair>air dash bair the back of a shield.

Everything is 16 directions in 64/melee (idk about brawl, but probably that too).

Only eight directions in brawl. The dpad on wiimote is the reason. Brawl still sucks.

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Only eight directions in brawl. The dpad on wiimote is the reason. Brawl still sucks.

Using Wiimote on Brawl was so obselete, dashing mechanic was fail. Only good thing with Wiimote is the DI, it's insane.

Also, hitstun needs to come back. And there should be an option for how heavy the hitstun is, you could turn it all the way up so you get SSB64's heavy hitstun. This includes shieldstun as well.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

Only eight directions in brawl. The dpad on wiimote is the reason. Brawl still sucks.

lmao what kind of game downgrades

Would doing an attack stop your momentum? Would be cool if chars like marth could SH fair>air dash bair the back of a shield.

hmm maybe. Stop completely? Seems like it would be very stuttery movement, but of course without seeing the engine its hard to tell

This is the first I've heard of this 16 directions thing. It still sounds more complicated than it needs to be.

honestly it should be 360 degrees, but obviously there are limits, so 16 directions is acceptable. If there were only 8 directions in 64/melee the metagame would have suffered sooo much. When hit off stage there would be soooooo many areas that would be impossible to recover from (against a competent player). Its really not that complicated, just other directions you can go

 

[Big-Cat]

lmao what kind of game downgrades

It depends really. If you're streamlining a mechanic to allow for other things, it's another story all together.

And you're also taking the change of the metagame under the assumption that the game would not be balanced to account for the changes. And the way I see it, if you limit the number of options, it's easier to balance. That's not to say that's a good thing necessarily though. It's a matter of practicality.

 

[Jonas]

Just FYI, AJP showed a while back that the Melee can read over a hundred different joystick directions, and you can airdodge/Firefox/Vanish etc. in all of them.

EDIT:
There we go:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13908836#post13908836
More than 16, and definitely more than just 8 lol. If you've recently played Melee, it should be obvious that there's than 8.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

I think this could work. Basically just make it so you don't slide when you hit the ground if air dashing into it. You just "stick" where you landed, thus making wavedashing non-existent.

Once that's taken care of it would be an amazing addition to smash!

 

[Nasty_Nate]

Just FYI, AJP showed a while back that the Melee can read over a hundred different joystick directions, and you can airdodge/Firefox/Vanish etc. in all of them.

EDIT:
There we go:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13908836#post13908836
More than 16, and definitely more than just 8 lol. If you've recently played Melee, it should be obvious that there's than 8.

holy ****
what a great game

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This is interesting. How do you propose this would work for individual characters? Like, would some air dodges retain momentum after the dodge while others would travel a distance and cancel your aerial momentum, and so on so forth...

 

[Nasty_Nate]

This is interesting. How do you propose this would work for individual characters? Like, would some air dodges retain momentum after the dodge while others would travel a distance and cancel your aerial momentum, and so on so forth...

I think with this system they could implement a brawlesque airdodge by doing something like pressing both triggers (but you should not be able to do a move after), although I would vastly prefer a melee one since it is much less of a floaty maneuver. It would probably be best if your upward momentum stopped completely for an airdodge in this case.

Unless you mean the air dashing? Yeah I think you should retain some (maybe all?) momentum after the dash, but you shouldnt be able to go farther in an upward direction than a double jump could (or else what would be the point of double jumping). In the end you should have more control about where you wanna go and more options, which in my opinion makes a better game.

I guess the question then is what would you be canceling by performing an aerial, if nothing changes? Maybe you shouldnt be allowed to grab the edge (or dodge) during certain starting airdash frames. That seems fair. It'd make for some cool recovery jump/tricksies instead of always falling to the same spot and using your second jump to sweetspot

 

[Nasty_Nate]

double post...

 

[Ove]

So you sugest that the range of the Air Dash is character specific?

 

[Nasty_Nate]

So you sugest that the range of the Air Dash is character specific?

speed, range, Why not? Everything else is

 

[Big-Cat]

Just because everything else is character specific doesn't mean everything should be. Universal characteristics can help balance the roster.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

Just because everything else is character specific doesn't mean everything should be. Universal characteristics can help balance the roster.

wat? Name one thing that isnt character specific in any smash. Shield coverage, jump speed, dodge duration, etc. I think literally everything is. Universal characteristics make a game super boring (like how making everyone floaty made brawl boring)

 

[Big-Cat]

wat? Name one thing that isnt character specific in any smash. Shield coverage, jump speed, dodge duration, etc. I think literally everything is. Universal characteristics make a game super boring (like how making everyone floaty made brawl boring)

Whether there being anything in Smash that is universal or not is irrelevant to the mechanic at hand. Why not make this air dash have universal properties? I'm not saying it should or shouldn't.

And wouldn't you want to to test it out where it's equal for everyone in the first place anyway to see where you go from there?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

While I do agree that Universal actions should have a degree of balance, giving them character specific utility does make things more interesting, and they could still work the way they are intended. In Persona 4 Arena each characters command dash varied in length, and everyone's All out Attack, bring a universal overhead, still retained unique properties for each character. I can understand universal moves for the sake of balance but it is bland. Just how Marvel vs Capcom 3 assigned a launcher button. I enjoyed characters like spiderman in MvC 1 and 2 when you had to combo into your effective launcher with c.lk>s.hk. It adds a steeper learning curve with the character and reflects how they should be played. But for the sake of originality, some universal actions must have some variety.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

Any more thoughts?

 

[Biz_R_0]

"Brawl sucks, make it more like Melee".

Anyway, the air dash thing seems pretty cool, provided it's not just another way to shoehorn in wavedashing and it doesn't imply that anything has to "be like Melee" again.

 

[-LzR-]

This could work if airdodges were removed. You would simply use the momentum of the airdash to dodge moves. It would make the aerial game much better.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but...

I never saw a problem about having BOTH.

I mean... I'm sure next to none of us use both R and L to airdodge (or however you call the Melee one).

So I always thought it'd be a neat idea to have the MELEE directional airdodge asigned to R and the BRAWL airdodge asigned to L (or however it suits you, of course).


I know I'd sure as heck use both. What do you think?


EDIT: And if it's too confusing to have both, then what if by not pressing a direction, you perform the Brawl air-dodge, and if you DO press a direction, you perform the Melee directional dodge.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't see any reason to have Melee airdodge. It's basically a really crappy option for anything that has to do with actual dodging.

 

[grizby2]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but...

I never saw a problem about having BOTH.

I mean... I'm sure next to none of us use both R and L to airdodge (or however you call the Melee one).

So I always thought it'd be a neat idea to have the MELEE directional airdodge asigned to R and the BRAWL airdodge asigned to L (or however it suits you, of course).


I know I'd sure as heck use both. What do you think?


EDIT: And if it's too confusing to have both, then what if by not pressing a direction, you perform the Brawl air-dodge, and if you DO press a direction, you perform the Melee directional dodge.

allow me to change the brawl dodge to R in controller configuration options and you have yourself a customer!

 

[DakotaBonez]

I would rather double tap the control stick midair to dash, so I can still air dodge. And if you are using the pro controller or gamepad you could assign A or Y to dash.

I like the above posters idea of having a trigger to dash, hopefully the control editing menu will make a return and include more options for each button.

EDIT: While were at it lets discuss controls for the other controllers.

 

[Deleted member]

I like the idea but it needs some fleshing out and 16 directions is FAR too excessive.

I get it, up, down, left, right, the diagonals, and the in-betweens. This would make the 2nd jump and the fast fall useless, and could potentially make certain characters really broken. Especially certain bulky ones that lack mobility.

I think, for one, it should function as a sort of upgrade to the air-dodge. You hit the same button, but in a direction, and your character does an air-dash, at the cost of their second jump. The distance and speed of the dash depend of the character. Second, it shouldn't be available to certain characters. Meaning some of the bulky (Dedede, Bowser, Ganon, etc...) ones don't get it, that's for the sake of balancing, to compensate for this though, Bulky characters should get their (ever needed) buff. Also, it shouldn't be exclusive, this is where balancing comes in. They would need to test this out to see where it best fits, and where it isn't needed. Likewise, characters with multiple jumps such as Kirby, Jiggs, Meta Knight and Pit should be tested and fleshed out. Do they get more than one Dash? How is their reach to compensate for this? These are all important things that must be addressed when implementing this mechanic.

Characters that don't get it, should retain the Brawl air-dodge.

I feel 2 directions is enough. Though Diagonal directions could work as well. However, the vertical directions should be a no-no, that just seems like a bad idea. I think if they implement diagonal directions, the the ideal would be around 30 degrees above and below the horizon, that way you have a bit of freedom with your movement without bringing about potential game breaking issues.

As an avid fan of competitive fighters like Guilty Gear and BlazBlue, I'd like to see this worked out, it has a lot of potential and could help bring some back some speed to the game. However, this benefits the fast characters a lot and needs to be implemented with the heavy-weights in mind, give them something to compensate for this.




Since we're on the topic of game mechanics, I would also like to see a couple things:

A High Jump like in BB/GG/SF, etc... Not sure how it could work in Smash since it has a dedicated Jump button, but it has potential to make air-combat a larger part of the game.

Air grabs (forward and backward only), maybe down and up, but they need to be well balanced.

Flesh out the Canceling mechanics, remove what's unnecessary, fix what needs fixing, etc...

A character specific shield, give the bulkier characters stronger shields and lighter characters weaker shields. Also, bulkier characters should be given higher defenses to compensate for their slow speed. In fact defending and blocking in general in Smash could undergo a lot of work. Fast characters tend to dominate the game because the game favors them, even in Brawl with it's floaty physics. Perfect blocking and reflecting already exist. I'd say give blocking a slightly better block-stun, at the same time.

Lastly, to avoid cowards, a mechanic like BB's Negative Status system would be interesting, where your character's abilities are diminished if you run away too much. We already have stale moves to punish the spammers. With a diverse air-combat system and air dashing, suddenly avoiding becomes a lot easier, therefore, this NEEDS to be implemented.

Oh, and one last thing. Smash Bros is a game that favors heavy knockbacks, chasedowns and juggling. However, Comboing is hardly ever a focus, in fact, when it IS implement is it rather awkward. I feel they should tweak the mechanics (recovery time, frames, hitsutns and knockbacks) just a bit to make comboing less "clunky," and allow characters to seamlessly flow from certain weak -> strong moves. For example, in Smash, when you do your nA, you're locked into that combo, tweak that a bit to allow characters to flow from their neutrals to certain tilts to Smash Attacks.


Just my ideas. It's nothing too complex, but it would certainly add a lot more depth to the game, while still keeping the "party" casual aspect of the game in-tact. Sure, it will widen the gap between good players and novices, but since when was that an issue? Also, if it's that big a deal, then toss in more broken items and stages for the party play.

Also, Final Smash Attacks and Assist trophies should be modified as well. Final Smashes could work competitively, but if worked in properly.

EDIT: I should just make a thread about game-mechanics in general, this could be interesting.

 

[Nasty_Nate]

I dont see how 16 directions is excessive. As stated earlier fox upB can go 100+ directions. I guess its a moot point arguing this if we cant test it though.

I like the idea of Air dashing with R and Brawlesque Airdodging with L (or vise versa) since more depth in a game is usually a good thing. Might as well go all the way and have a Persona Arena style air turnaround with L+R!! The more control you can have over a character the better!

 

[SmashShadow]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but...

I never saw a problem about having BOTH.

I mean... I'm sure next to none of us use both R and L to airdodge (or however you call the Melee one).

So I always thought it'd be a neat idea to have the MELEE directional airdodge asigned to R and the BRAWL airdodge asigned to L (or however it suits you, of course).


I know I'd sure as heck use both. What do you think?


EDIT: And if it's too confusing to have both, then what if by not pressing a direction, you perform the Brawl air-dodge, and if you DO press a direction, you perform the Melee directional dodge.

This so much.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I've pondered this idea as an alternative for airdodges a few times, and had quite a lot of thoughts on it, including the prospect of it being multi-directional, taking a jump, and so forth, pretty much everything in the OP. Some more food for thought though:

-Air dashes are partially effected by your character's current momentum. Atempting to immediately jump then air dash sideways, for example, results in a dash with the following trajectory:

This would apply to all dashes and all momentum, and is a feature very common to games that include an air dash. A bonus feature of this mechanic is that it allows wavelands and smooth movement, without unforeseen applications.

-On a per-character basis, air dashes are of different lengths, and may include invincibility or other such traits. Bowser, for example, might get a short super armor dash.

-On a per-character basis, air dashes can be acted-out-of at different times. Characters like Metaknight, for example, might do a barrel roll glide that goes a fairly far distance, but is very slow to act out of.

-Also on a per-character basis, the number of air dashes that can be used before landing or grabbing the ledge, as well as the prospect of it removing their double jump, varies. In addition, some characters might get their airdash back upon being hit, typically ones that are otherwise small and/or grouped with a poor recovery, as with Bowser.

-Pressing the airdash input with no direction results in an air dodge akin to Brawl's, has no effect on the number of jumps one can use, but does deplete one of their uses of an airdash.

 

[LosTimeTurner]

why do you hate on brawl so much hater?

 

[Yamer]

You guys may be interested in this: http://smashboards.com/threads/air-dash-online-new-platform-fighter.335614/

 

[YOSHIDO]

I like the idea of air-dash. Replacing air dodge could open up a wide range of variety and mix up. The only thing I would change is make the the air dash a separate component that jumping all together. This would work similar to peach's float. I believe an air dash mechanic in this game would be different for characters that can float. Probably not exist at all for them. Characters that can glide can have a nice boost from the added variety in movement. I would also like to see momentum of the air dash to be carried until canceled by an attack. I also think it's fair for the smaller faster characters to have maybe 2 air dashes similar to the way lighter balloon type characters have multiple jumps.

But yeah man all in all I think this is a great mechanic to add. An I'm completely on board for 16 directions because this can add a nice amount of depth and options with combos and set ups. I also agree with someone's earlier post about using a negative penalty. Because I can only imagine the amount fun someone could had feinting all day. This negative penalty could make them lighter as if they had taken damage until they approach. I believe Guilty Gear has a very solid air dash system.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I like the initial proposal. I'd say that you keep Brawl's dodge as per normal, but when you SMASH the control stick and dodge you airdash instead.

They would probably have to make the different characters have different airdashes, have them be in proportion to how far their second jumps take them. Yoshi losing his second jump to airdodge sacrifices a lot more than, say, ROB.

So... would a character like Jigglypuff/Kirby/Pit who has a lot of second jumps be able to execute a bunch of tiny airdashes?

 

[Snakeyes]

I like the idea but would probably restrict the air-dash to two directions (forwards and backwards) just to keep things simple. Since the game uses four face buttons, why not turn one of the two jump buttons into a dedicated "dodge" button?

On the ground, we'd have:
Neutral D = spot-dodge
Smash D (forwards or backwards) = short grounded dash in either direction ("official" wavedash)

And in the air:
Neutral D = Brawl air-dodge
Smash D (forwards or backwards) = Air-dash in either direction. The length is determined by how hard the player slams the control stick. Uses up second jump.

Wonder if character with multiple jumps should be restricted from the mechanic to balance their advantage in the air over the rest of the cast?

 

[Zaffy]

Uses second jump. So since this replaces the air dodge, if you're hit in midair, and you've used your second jump, then you're just left to be perpetually juggled, unable to dodge your way back to the stage. Great. Have fun being aerial juggled by metaknight or something

 

[Uffe]

I would rather double tap the control stick midair to dash, so I can still air dodge. And if you are using the pro controller or gamepad you could assign A or Y to dash.

I like the above posters idea of having a trigger to dash, hopefully the control editing menu will make a return and include more options for each button.

EDIT: While were at it lets discuss controls for the other controllers.

I like the idea of double tapping the control stick midair as well. It surely would allow dodging to stay within the game. I also feel that an air dash would better benefit aerial characters, anyway, as oppose to grounded characters.

 

[Lemonwater]

I like the concept of an airdash, but that airdodge is irreplaceable. Perhaps allow each character to have an air-dash type of action, but one that doesn't send the character into a helpless state, so it can be used offensively. IE. It can only be used during the second jump and only once per second jump, so you'll have to touch ground to jump up to do it again.