My problems with Project M.

[Deleted member]

Smash is all about buzz. It introduced players to unfamiliar characters and games. It's one of the reasons it has been so successful. Sonic may not be a Nintendo character, but when compared to the rest of this motley crew, I think he fits in just fine.

Anyway, maybe this isn't a popular opinion, but I think the current version of Sonic is a good building block. Tone some of his moves down and shave off a few of his options and he should be okay. If he ends up being one of the best characters in the game, then so be it. I'd rather that be the case than for him to be mediocre. He is who he is and there's no changing how he fights. I don't think there's ever going to be a Sonic that satisfies everybody.

 

[leelue]

Balderdash

 

[Deleted member]

design concept 1: don't make a character with a faster dash than falcon. even falcon is pushing it.
design concept 2: don't give a character that fast any way to kill under 120
design concept 3: don't give that character numerous ways to escape a disadvantageous position at will

thats basically all sonic comes down to. he can do what he wants and when he wants with no real repercussions. like fox is stupid right, but even fox has only similar kill power with less speed and has to worry about death at any given moment. sonic has all of the goods, and better, with none of the drawback.

i would personally beat sonic to death with a nerfbat. no matter how "bad" you make him, a character that fast will never truly be bad. i can't imagine someone thinking that giving this character actual kill moves is acceptable.

 

[HyperrCrow]

The day they decided to give Sonic a spike he became a god.
Although I feel that as good as Sonic is, once you get him offstage near ground level he's virtually helpless. His recovery is nowhere near as good as it was in vBrawl since it doesn't allow you control to move horizontally and can be edge guarded easily. But that's just me.

 

[hamyojo]

Every character is OP in their own special way.

 

[V-K]

What would even be done to sonic to keep him solid but not obnoxious?

The only thing annoying about Sonic are his spinning moves. I'm talking about nB, dB and fB. I'd let him have his dB as the typical spinning move from the games and then change his other specials to somethign more interesting.

 

[teluoborg]

My problem with Project M is that when you get hit out of your up B/side B you instantly lose your mid air jump, even if you hadn't used it, even if you performed said move from the ground.

Why pmbr, why.

 

[standardtoaster]

It was in melee, too. If you are hit out of any move that would put you into special fall you lose your jumps.

 

[The_NZA]

I also think Sonic feels very sonic in this game, which is a good foundation. Sethlon's sonic style is nice. but, Sonic isn't nearly vulnerable enough (fox without the free combos on him), and his recovery is absurd. Sonic feels like one of the few characters where spiking him helps him (if you spike sonic after he upbs and he meteor cancels, he gets a net vertical boost). If there was a way to make his spin dash a little less safe, tone down his killing power, tone down his recovery, and make him more centralizing on the combos he has and the ability to be where he needs to be to follow up, you'd have a strong character.

 

[Vashimus]

If you spike Sonic, he can't meteor cancel.

 

[Dan Salvato]

It was in melee, too. If you are hit out of any move that would put you into special fall you lose your jumps.

I really don't like that. It removes the potential strategic decision of saving your jump, and such a mechanic punishes those with multiple air jumps much harder.

Is there a justification for this mechanic? I would be interested in hearing it.

 

[Professor Pro]

I really don't like that. It removes the potential strategic decision of saving your jump, and such a mechanic punishes those with multiple air jumps much harder.

Is there a justification for this mechanic? I would be interested in hearing it.

It was in Melee is the justification.

 

[metroid1117]

I really don't like that. It removes the potential strategic decision of saving your jump, and such a mechanic punishes those with multiple air jumps much harder.

Is there a justification for this mechanic? I would be interested in hearing it.

I'm not sure if there's a satisfactory justification for this, but I personally don't mind the game being punishing towards those who get put in a bad position such that they have to use a recovery move. Recoveries are generally better than in Melee and ledge occupancy has been reduced anyway, so I think something that makes it easier on the edgeguarder is fine.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah I get all that "recovering must be risky". I can understand that if it was the case in the air, hitting people out of their up B would sometimes help them more than gimp them.

My question is why does it still apply when I side B with Ganon while I'm on the ground. What's the point. What do we gain from a strategic point of view.

 

[leelue]

I had taken issue with this mechanic specifically with regards to how it hurt ganon. Around 2 years of his move working one way (say, ledgejump forward b instead of ledgehop forward b) but "because melee" stepped in and messed it up. Yet again.

Besides, I liked being able to save my jump. I thought it added something to the game.
But there's a subset of people who think recovery is too good in this game. I don't like those people. **** melee.

Although I feel that as good as Sonic is, once you get him offstage near ground level he's virtually helpless. His recovery is nowhere near as good as it was in vBrawl since it doesn't allow you control to move horizontally and can be edge guarded easily. But that's just me.

Nobody cares about how good something was in brawl, for starters. But to get back to the matter at hand sonic's recovery is still incredible and works from almost everywhere. I have no idea where you got this notion.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If you slow the acceleration on his run, he won't be able to weave like a loom

This this this. Sonic never classically took off like a bullet and even in the new games where he can, it makes his movement super dedicated.

I had taken issue with this mechanic specifically with regards to how it hurt ganon. Around 2 years of his move working one way (say, ledgejump forward b instead of ledgehop forward b) but "because melee" stepped in and messed it up. Yet again.

Besides, I liked being able to save my jump. I thought it added something to the game.
But there's a subset of people who think recovery is too good in this game. I don't like those people. **** melee.

Recoveries are too good in many aspects, but this is certainly an aspect where "because Melee" does add too a less than appreciable component of recovery.

Bring back Melee ledge occupancy before straight up removing recovery options as they stand. Unless you're Fox, Diddy, or Sonic, recovering will keep you in a disadvantageous position anyway.

 

[leelue]

I much like the sensible ledge occupancy and I much prefer when characters can come back to the stage. It's cool having characters that are good and bad at edgeguarding and it's only when recoveries are pretty good that you can see the gap in more places. I think we decided that this is one of those things where it's hard to give an objective answer on.

This this this. Sonic never classically took off like a bullet and even in the new games where he can, it makes his movement super dedicated.

If only someone who knew the character inside and out with tournament experience could have convinced the pmbr to do something about that.

 

[Juushichi]

You don't sound bitter at all Leelue.

 

[leelue]

##exposed.

 

[The_NZA]

If you spike Sonic, he can't meteor cancel.

Are you saying he can't meteor cancel after he has been meteor smashed? Because I accidentally used Spike when I meant to say meteor smashed.

Because i've definitely daired sonic with ness only to have him helped in his recovery.

 

[leelue]

People get testy when you misuse vocabulary
Like when someone says no but they really mean yes.
Oh, to be young again

 

[Deleted member]

design concept 1: don't make a character with a faster dash than falcon. even falcon is pushing it.

I completely agree with your other points, but this I just can't. Sonic should be the fastest character in the game, not tied for fastest. If you made him as fast as Falcon, I would have to say that Falcon should have his speed reduced, and nerfing Falcon is obviously a laughably bad idea.

Sonic does kill too well for his design. And frankly, I don't like the fact his UpB doesn't put him into freefall. Characters with worse Up-B's can't act out of them, so I don't see why he should get special treatment in that area.

This is what I meant by his current design being an okay building block. Reducing the effectiveness of his kill moves and eliminating extra fluff options like acting out of his UpB would make him much more manageable while keeping him relatively the same. If he's still ridiculous after those changes, then his spin moves should be looked into. I'm afraid that the opinions of people are going to lead to him being over-nerfed. Take away things slowly and see how he fares.

 

[Deleted member]

I completely agree with your other points, but this I just can't. Sonic should be the fastest character in the game, not tied for fastest. If you made him as fast as Falcon, I would have to say that Falcon should have his speed reduced, and nerfing Falcon is obviously a laughably bad idea.

Sonic, Falcon, and Fox should all have slower dash speeds if you want to be realistic about making those attributes non-polarizing. I don't care if sonic should be the fastest, his design is still atrocious for it and everyone knows it. His "flavor" is stupid.

 

[leelue]

Sonic, Falcon, and Fox should all have slower dash speeds if you want to be realistic

Like like like like
Like like like like

 

[Deleted member]

I could get behind a change like that (with Sonic still being the fastest of the 3), but I think we can all agree that the chances of Fox and Falcon being made slower is extremely low.

 

[leelue]

The more people think that's good idea... can't hurt?

Dashdancing is stupid as hell anyway
"Look I am threatening to hit you but at the same time completely out of your ability to approach me
neener
neener
melee"

 

[The_NZA]

People get testy when you misuse vocabulary
Like when someone says no but they really mean yes.
Oh, to be young again

I said:

"Sonic feels like one of the few characters where spiking him helps him (if you spike sonic after he upbs and he meteor cancels, he gets a net vertical boost)."You compared my saying spike instead of meteor canceling to the equivalence of yes and no.

I think you are being silly.

 

[leelue]

Man, you really don't know me very well

 

[The_NZA]

*shrugs*

I don't know how old you are but maybe don't assume I'm a child because I mislabeled meteor smash with spike? That's not too much to ask, is it?

 

[leelue]

Well, humor goes over your head pretty well.

 

[The_NZA]

I understand humor. I just didn't think that was very funny. But I digress––it's silly you can meteor smash sonic to the ground and he gets a net benefit when he upbs again.

 

[a vehicle]

I understand humor. I just didn't think that was very funny. But I digress––it's silly you can meteor smash sonic to the ground and he gets a net benefit when he upbs again.

Stop being edgy, you're giving me more reasons to stop reading your posts.

I agree with Umbreon about sonic, also if you think like this

Sonic should be the fastest character in the game

It's because you're too slow

P:M is a fighting games with characters based off other games, that doesn't mean that they should inherit all their attributes, it means that they could.

I also am one of those who thinks that recoveries are way too imba in this game (so be ready to hate me when i say that) all characters should have theirs nerfed to regain the high tension and fast pased aggression melee had when it came to facestomping your opponent by chasing them off stage. It's very tiring having to combo bad players up to 90% to land a killing blow instead of gimping them off stage at 20% followed by a spike that actually goes through their up-b hitbox

 

[leelue]

I understand humor.

Did you know that was a **** joke? No? Case Closed.

It's very tiring having to combo bad players up to 90% to land a killing blow instead of gimping them off stage at 20% followed by a spike that actually goes through their up-b hitbox

If you have to get bad players to 90 before you kill them (consistently), consider that you aren't killing them effectively to begin with. If they are zelda or sonic or something... sure these characters aren't really gimpable. But the large majority of the cast is. And it's nice that we have bowser and sonic etc who edgeguard with severe disregard for all but the godliest of recoveries. It's nice to spread the strengths around. Insert zero suit samus joke here.

 

[Vashimus]

Also keeping in mind that Melee isn't the pinnacle of Smash perfection and that P:M doesn't have to be a 1:1 clone is a good mentality to have. If your Up-B can't handle the simplest of interceptions, that's bull**** in my eyes. I know not every character would have bad recovery, but nerfing every character's recovery simply so people can die sooner isn't gonna solve all of our problems.

 

[trash?]

The concepts and physics behind melee should be the stepping stone, and not the goal. It's a template of what can work, but not what can work flawlessly. Nobody wants a replica of melee, because then they'd just play melee. Gimme my melee 2.0. I want my melee 2.0

 

[Deleted member]

Recoveries, in general, are fine in this game. I really don't understand the big fuss. You're almost always in a disadvantageous position when forced to recover. It's just that now many characters have an actual chance of making it back if the opponent screws up an edgeguard. I think it's better this way.

It's also kind of funny when people suggest nerfing recoveries across the board when you know what they really mean is "nerf every good recovery...except Fox's."

P:M is a fighting games with characters based off other games, that doesn't mean that they should inherit all their attributes, it means that they could.

Speed = Sonic. Having him not be the fastest character in the game is ridiculous and I don't understand why anybody would support that idea. I wouldn't mind having Sonic's current running speed reduced a bit as long as other fast characters also have their running speed reduced so that they're still slower than him.

 

[Vashimus]

I doubt they'd tamper with the Melee characters though. So in terms of the other speed demons of the game, you're just left with Charizard, who is quite content and appreciates his dash speed.

 

[The_NZA]

Did you know that was a **** joke? No? Case Closed.

My bad dude. I didn't actually catch that and I thought you were being a jerk. Turns out, I was being the jerk.

 

[Shadic]

I think this thread has ran its course. The original discussion point of this topic is pretty long-gone.