My Problem with Counters

[Coonstrudel]

(Disclaimer: If you're insulted by this, please forgive me. It is not at all my intent to offend anyone here. Rather, this is meant for the people that use Counter throughout the matches and can't stop spamming it. Not the players that use it with balance. Thank you. )

Throughout the beautiful years of smash, players, both competitive and casual alike have had numerous moments of fun and glory while brawling in one of the world's greatest fighting series.
Smash Bros isn't like an arcade brawler. You can't just keep tapping random buttons until you win. It would take skill, practice, and deep concentration and tactical nohow for certain characters.

And what if you are about t be attacked? Well don't worry little johnny. just shield and roll to protection...then punish.
Not a care in the world. Yes, the land was prosperous. The Falcon punches were unstoppable!
Until...one day...
...They showed up...

Counters. No, why... just..why?
I cannot tell you how many times i'd be battling a counter character, barely about to beat them, JUST for them to use a counter on me. It's as easy as a press of a button. About to be attacked? Just cheaply counter.
You see, there is a huge difference between being good at something and knowing how to counter your enemies.
And then just countering out of desperation cause you know it's an easy win.

This should have never been introduced. You don't need to have a counter to be a good player. Just good reflexes and planning. Something that counter throws out the window.
You can be at %80 and a small counter can K.O you on the spot. It's not fair.

We didn't need them then, and so I don't see why we need them now. They're more of an annoyance than an actual challenge. Why do you need a second way to escape an attack?

I'm not going to pull any punches. I HATE counters. they're a killjoy for any smash mode. And I hate when people try justifying it. Usually people that do it. Now I know that technically almost every character in the roster has their own form of a counter, but this...this is just..dare I say.. "OP"

Now, before you start hating on me, hear me out for this one last point.

You have a Corrin or Lucina. And then you have a Captain Falcon. Who is more likely to win?
Captain has no counter. He's way more vulnerable to attacks. How is that fair? He doesn't need it to win. Because again..true skill.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hm. First, welcome to the Boards.
I don't think you really understand how counters really work. You really cannot just throw them at random and expect to bop random people with it. If your opponent throws it at random and you still end up getting hit, you're the one at fault.
Giving someone a Counter isn't automatically making them less vulnerable to attacks. A good user of that move is going to make you even forget you have it, and only throw it out when it's necessary after he explored your habits enough to know when to Counter you. Don't be predictable and don't throw out slow and/or commital moves if that's your problem.
Also, your last "point" is implying somehow Falcon requires "true skill" when compared to Corrin or Lucina. Not the case. What even would be "true skill"? Would it be not using Counters? Funny because that is a skill in of itself.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Hm. First, welcome to the Boards.
I don't think you really understand how counters really work. You really cannot just throw them at random and expect to bop random people with it. If your opponent throws it at random and you still end up getting hit, you're the one at fault.
Giving someone a Counter isn't automatically making them less vulnerable to attacks. A good user of that move is going to make you even forget you have it, and only throw it out when it's necessary after he explored your habits enough to know when to Counter you. Don't be predictable and don't throw out slow and/or commital moves if that's your problem.
Also, your last "point" is implying somehow Falcon requires "true skill" when compared to Corrin or Lucina. Not the case. What even would be "true skill"? Would it be not using Counters? Funny because that is a skill in of itself.

My 5 paragraph thoughts summed up in one.

/thread

 

[JayE]

Yes, you can't simply mash buttons to win in Smash; it takes skill and practice to truly be good at this game. You say that but you see counters as an easy win? "Yes Smash takes skill and practice, but you can just counter to win" bruh. Counters are by no means an invincible move or a bad move. Its a risk/reward move. If your opponent misses, they can be punished. If they land it, they're most likely going to be rewarded. Simple as that. Counter is not invincible.
So because Captain Falcon has no counter, he has a less chance of winning? What? First of all counters, are not an overpowered move in the game of Smash Bros. If counters were that powerful and unfair, how come the characters who do possess a counter are not breaking the game or the best characters? You're acting is if counters are like pre patch Diddy up air, or something that is unstoppable.
I can understand you getting frustrated by people who keep getting successful counters on you. This is most likely to happen with casual players (especially in Free for alls) who just try to spam for fun. Smash Bros can be annoying. But you have to learn how to play around the counter. The move was not intended to be a super broken move that no one can overcome. If you want to stop getting countered, perhaps you should WAIT for the counter. Bait it out, play patient and try to think before you move, especially against counter spammers. Its not that difficult when you know how to defeat the cheesy tactic.

 

[Gamehowitzer]

Counters are very punishable too. Either grab or delay your attack a moment and you get around it. If you hate counters that much that just shows that you're not good at dealing with them. I'm a marth main so i should know. I don't even really use counter much. Actually, i'm not sure if i do utilize them.... hmmmm

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What you need to understand is that Counter attacks are not as foolproof as one would think. The counter frame windows can be rather strict for some fighters, and if you mistime the counter frames, you could end up getting punished for that. Even against Master Hand, Crazy Hand, and Master Core, using a Counter attack against either of them won't always work, simply because there's no telling when they'll execute their attacks.

Also, Counter attacks are useless against unblockable attacks, and grabs bypass the counter frames as well.

If you're finding yourself falling for Counter attacks a lot, you need to alter your battle strategy. Also, some counterattacks are not very effective, such as with Greninja's Substitute, where even when you activate its counterattack, the counterattack can be blocked and even interrupted with the right attacks.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Counters are not difficult to deal with you just have to play smart against them. Don't over exert yourself and use unsafe moves often and you'll find yourself not getting countered more.

For example if you are playing Falcon against Marth you have to keep in the back of your head that he can use a counter so trying to go for a additional up air during a non true combo or charging a smash attack as they fall from above towards you can lead to you getting countered since what your doing is very unsafe. This holds true even when playing non-counter characters you gotta know your opponent's character and what they can and can't do, if you do something unsafe there is a chance you'll get punished for it. You wouldn't constantly try to chase Bowser from below because he can catch on and Down B/Air you same concept applies to counter characters.

Of course counters aren't without flaws, if they attempt them willy nilly they are sitting ducks for a huge publish. If you see someone is catching you with counters a lot try and bait it out then attack, they'll stop using them after that.

 

[Coonstrudel]

Hm. First, welcome to the Boards.
I don't think you really understand how counters really work. You really cannot just throw them at random and expect to bop random people with it. If your opponent throws it at random and you still end up getting hit, you're the one at fault.
Giving someone a Counter isn't automatically making them less vulnerable to attacks. A good user of that move is going to make you even forget you have it, and only throw it out when it's necessary after he explored your habits enough to know when to Counter you. Don't be predictable and don't throw out slow and/or commital moves if that's your problem.
Also, your last "point" is implying somehow Falcon requires "true skill" when compared to Corrin or Lucina. Not the case. What even would be "true skill"? Would it be not using Counters? Funny because that is a skill in of itself.

True Skill: giving 40% of damage with a flurry of combos an well timed attacks
Being op: giving 40% of damage with the push of a button at the expense of a single mistake.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how that's fair.

Counters are not difficult to deal with you just have to play smart against them. Don't over exert yourself and use unsafe moves often and you'll find yourself not getting countered more.

For example if you are playing Falcon against Marth you have to keep in the back of your head that he can use a counter so trying to go for a additional up air during a non true combo or charging a smash attack as they fall from above towards you can lead to you getting countered since what your doing is very unsafe. This holds true even when playing non-counter characters you gotta know your opponent's character and what they can and can't do, if you do something unsafe there is a chance you'll get punished for it. You wouldn't constantly try to chase Bowser from below because he can catch on and Down B/Air you same concept applies to counter characters.

Of course counters aren't without flaws, if they attempt them willy nilly they are sitting ducks for a huge publish. If you see someone is catching you with counters a lot try and bait it out then attack, they'll stop using them after that.

I've been trying to outsmart them, and used a whole bunch of different tactics. But I just can't seem to avoid it. Even if I try punishing the counter, 9 times out of 10, it's followed up with another attack. All of the effort that was put into avoiding it goes down the drain. And I never mentioned it, but I use the grab button as my dodge. Always have. So I can't avoid attacks as quickly as everyone else.

Counters are very punishable too. Either grab or delay your attack a moment and you get around it. If you hate counters that much that just shows that you're not good at dealing with them. I'm a marth main so i should know. I don't even really use counter much. Actually, i'm not sure if i do utilize them.... hmmmm

And that's what I prefer. Marth and Roy are already good fighters? Why use counters? I like when I can just have a counterless match, because it balances things out, and I don't have to stress about predicting when it'll be used.

I think they should have a limit. Like, only being able to use it when you're at a specific amount of damage, or only twice per match or something.
But again, dodging doesn't really do me much good when I desperately need to land a hit and I get countered off guard. I'm already done for. And when Corrin does it...uggghhh, the nightmares.

 

[Linkip]

If someone spams counter and lose to it you just don't play enough.

If you are falcon you can down throw to UAIR, NAIR or if you dash grab at a certain percent FAIR.

If they fly far enough you can't follow up with a aerial, giving them some time for another counter, you can just go to where they will land and falcon punch.

There are obviously more ways to punish counters. Against little mac i like to send a projectile if he is near the edge because his counter sends him forwards a bit which could be into the air. And we all know how well mac does in the air.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Just keep practicing you'll eventually get to the point you'll know if it's likely to expect a counter or not. For example, Corrin has a strong counter its likely they'll use theirs more often than other counter characters. With Ness I often get a combo going with up air-up tilt. Now I can go for another up air it's not true but it's a effective string that will work if I move quickly, Corrin can counter this. If I expect they will try just that I can simply sit still. If they do then good they land in my face and I get a punish. If they don't then at worse I just miss out on extra damage but learn that my opponent isn't likely to counter in that situation again and I can go for my up air next time.

You aren't always going to out read your opponent, they will catch you occasionally with a counter you just have to make it hard for them to read you by mixing your options up and playing safe. If you have trouble grabbing then remap your grab buttons

 

[Xermo]

Lol this thread again.

How about you stop auto-piloting and hitting the counter.

 

[MacSmitty]

True Skill: giving 40% of damage with a flurry of combos an well timed attacks
Being op: giving 40% of damage with the push of a button at the expense of a single mistake.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how that's fair.

Some heavy-hitting characters such as Ganon, Buster! Shulk and Bowser can deal around number of damage with a fully charged Smash attack, and those characters are not even close to being OP.
What exactly are you doing to get 40% from a counter anyway? I see you play Falcon, so the most likely answer is that you're trying to Falcon Punch a character with a counter, which is a BAAADDD idea.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I've been trying to outsmart them, and used a whole bunch of different tactics. But I just can't seem to avoid it. Even if I try punishing the counter, 9 times out of 10, it's followed up with another attack. All of the effort that was put into avoiding it goes down the drain. And I never mentioned it, but I use the grab button as my dodge. Always have. So I can't avoid attacks as quickly as everyone else.

It honestly sounds like you're playing against level 9 CPU's, which have inhumane reactions in the first place so...

 

[Arrei]

So that just sounds like you're complaining that you can't work around them. Counter characters are simply another breed of fighter - some characters you have to keep out, some characters you have to intrude on,a character having a counter just means you either need to give them no opportunity to use said counter (a fairly simple task for combo characters) or just respect the counter just as you would respect any other dangerous attack such as Mac's smashes or charged projectiles. Almost every character has great options for discouraging counter use, between projectiles, command grabs, and combos that start from weak attacks or grabs. Only character I can really think of that's pretty boned in that regard is Jigglypuff, but lol, Jigglypuff.

 

[FamilyTeam]

True Skill: giving 40% of damage with a flurry of combos an well timed attacks
Being op: giving 40% of damage with the push of a button at the expense of a single mistake.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how that's fair.

What? Then don't make that mistake. Don't give us the window to. A lot of characters have ways of capitalizing on mistakes that are much more deadly than a Counter. I mean, in theory, against Full Limit Cloud, you only need to airdodge into the ground once at 50% and you can lose a stock to Finishing Touch.
I also never saw one of my Counters dealing 40% other than when I countered really dumb stuff like Falcon Punch, Warlock Punch, PK Thunder or a really telegraphed Knee. Falcon and Warlock Punch are moves that are basically just asking to get punished, PK Thunder is something Ness mains have had to deal with since 64, and you shouldn't be predictable with your Knees anyway. If you gave somebody the window to counter your knee, any other character probably would have the window to airdodge it, anyway.
And again, I really cannot see where you are coming from with "True Skill". Don't be predictable and we won't punish you for it. Why not try to bait a Counter then punish accordingly, then?

 

[Zerp]

True Skill: giving 40% of damage with a flurry of combos an well timed attacks
Being op: giving 40% of damage with the push of a button at the expense of a single mistake.

I can't really think of many moves that will give 40% off of counter (except for Falcon Punch and similar moves, which you should not be carelessly tossing out), and Witch Time requires "a flurry of combos an well timed attacks" but what you said for being op perfectly describes 's Rest, does that mean you think Rest is OP? I'd beg to differ.

And that's what I prefer. Marth and Roy are already good fighters (Roy's VERY debatable)? Why use counters?

Counters are a tool, and if you're playing to win, you're going to use every tool that's useful to you. They're going to be used if and when someone can predict when their opponent will attack, if I know that you habitually toss out attacks after a certain option, I'm going to start using counter as a punish after you do that option until you adapt.

I've been trying to outsmart them, and used a whole bunch of different tactics. But I just can't seem to avoid it. Even if I try punishing the counter, 9 times out of 10, it's followed up with another attack.
+
But again, dodging doesn't really do me much good when I desperately need to land a hit and I get countered off guard.

It kind of sounds like you only dodge to avoid a counter, have you tried predicting that your opponent is going to use a counter and grabbing them during their counter? If you know one is coming, then don't spotdodge or shield, wait it out and punish them for it with a grab.

 

[SirSquire]

*bait the counter and grab*

 

[GeflGabe]

Counter moves are very situational. If you're fighting against them, just be ready to grab or even charge a smash attack if you can time when the frames end. Pay attention to player habits and exploit them to avoid being counter spammed. A simple grab is all you really need to counteract them. As long as you don't use predictable habits or charge attacks out of nowhere, you should be fine.

 

[MacSmitty]

Being op: giving 40% of damage with the push of a button at the expense of a single mistake.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how that's fair.

You know, here's another thing I don't like about how people complain about things being not so button-complex like grabs and stuff. This is Smash Bros, not Street Fighter or Blazeblue.
For crying out loud we can do a kill move with a push of a button or a swipe of C-Stick.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Oh how i wish Palu doesn't have her counter and instead Lightweight.

The only Counter that is a bit broken is witch time but even then it has the same weakness as all the other counters.

 

[Gamehowitzer]

I'm just going to be honest. You sound like my cousin who doesn't even play the game barely. And he's a for glory link.

 

[Pale Tuna]

Throughout the beautiful years of smash, players, both competitive and casual alike have had numerous moments of fun and glory while brawling in one of the world's greatest fighting series.
Smash Bros isn't like an arcade brawler. You can't just keep tapping random buttons until you win. It would take skill, practice, and deep concentration and tactical nohow for certain characters.
.

I somewhat take offense to this statement as inputting random buttons in a traditional fighter does not lead you to a win unless both parties are inadequate towards said fighters. It's often those who think of traditional fighters as "button mashing to win" whom have trouble adapting and improving in any competitive game. It isn't about randomly inputting. You have to understand that the depth and technicality in both Smash and traditional fighters are not only different, but both share some of the same traits.

In any case, I feel that counters in Smash is a good thing. Countering and parrying are for the most part, very similar. These have existed in many fighters and will often lead to huge punishes, similar to that of Smash. Sure, a parry in SF would lead to long combos, but in Smash, it's often a 1-hit move that inflicts a lot of damage. You can view the "long-combo" via SF as the 1-hit, high-damage counter attack of Smash. Course, Bayonetta's is a bit more traditional in a sense that it leads to combo strings, but you should get the point. Counters are completely fair, I've been punished hard due to them as well as punished others hard. It's all on player skill, whether or not you can capitalize on them or not.

I for one, do not really use counter characters. When I do feel like playing a character with counter, I often will use it if I can get a good read whilst my opponent not expecting it, which I know sounds pretty common to what most will say. I consider myself of average skill-level, so I'll fall for them occasionally.

As for advice, as many have stated, keep practicing. I know people get really disappointed when a counter will end the game whilst you're in the lead, but you have to keep pushing. You can't win them all, which I'm sure you already know.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Oh how i wish Palu doesn't have her counter and instead Lightweight.

The only Counter that is a bit broken is witch time but even then it has the same weakness as all the other counters.

Witch Time can work against unblockable attacks though, which is something that the other Counter moves can't do.

As for Palutena, it would've been nice if her Counter had better knockback, but at least it's not as awful as Greninja's Substitute.

 

[Uffe]

If your opponent throws it at random and you still end up getting hit, you're the one at fault.

If you're playing aggressively and you keep getting hit by counter, then yes, it is your fault. But when you're a Ness main who is forced with no other option of recovery than PK Thunder 2, is it still your fault? I expect this from a lot of Marth/Lucina mains so I have to try to stay in the middle of the stage or save my second jump. I would say that if you're put in a position where you've got no other options to avoid counter, then it's not your fault. It's no one's. It's just a smart tactic to use and I'll admit, a very disappointing way to lose.

Now, as for counters in the game, I don't think most characters who have them need counter. I think Marth, Little Mac, and Shulk should be the only ones with counters. Marth, because he's the original counter. Counter is also in Fire Emblem. But I don't think every Fire Emblem character needs one. I'm excluding Robin, of course, since he doesn't have one. Little Mac having a counter makes sense since he's a boxer. Shulk having a counter makes sense since he has that Vision ability. I wouldn't even care if Greninja was another character who had a counter since that as a TM exists in Pokemon. I hate counter for a different reason than the OP himself does. I don't think a lot of characters need counters and that only a select few should keep theirs.

 

[FamilyTeam]

If you're playing aggressively and you keep getting hit by counter, then yes, it is your fault. But when you're a Ness main who is forced with no other option of recovery than PK Thunder 2, is it still your fault? I expect this from a lot of Marth/Lucina mains so I have to try to stay in the middle of the stage or save my second jump. I would say that if you're put in a position where you've got no other options to avoid counter, then it's not your fault. It's no one's. It's just a smart tactic to use and I'll admit, a very disappointing way to lose.

That's a totally different situation and yeah, in that case it really is not your fault. More like a sad side-effect of his his recovery works. I assure you it's not completely impossible to recover as Ness vs. Marcina, but you have to be creative and smart. You are also risking just getting edgeguarded anyway.

 

[Uffe]

That's a totally different situation and yeah, in that case it really is not your fault. More like a sad side-effect of his his recovery works. I assure you it's not completely impossible to recover as Ness vs. Marcina, but you have to be creative and smart. You are also risking just getting edgeguarded anyway.

Yup. I've tried to recover vertically and I'll either somehow not get hit but active the counter, fling into the stage and possibly tech, or just die. In general, Marcina just gives Ness a hard time. You're recovering? Counter. PK Fire? Counter/Dolphin Slash. Down throw > forward air? Getting hit by your fair the first time, shame on you. Getting hit by your second fair, Dolphin Slash. Plus, they've got range with their sword. And the jab > f-smash is so rough. Dancing Blade is a pain, too. Even though I kind of know what to expect from Marcina, I have to play patiently. Honestly, I think I'd rather fight Rosaluma. This one Marth main I used to fight, he'd two stock me a lot. I changed up my game plan and started winning more often, but it gave me a headache having to read his patterns, bait and punish.

 

[Gamehowitzer]

Yup. I've tried to recover vertically and I'll either somehow not get hit but active the counter, fling into the stage and possibly tech, or just die. In general, Marcina just gives Ness a hard time. You're recovering? Counter. PK Fire? Counter/Dolphin Slash. Down throw > forward air? Getting hit by your fair the first time, shame on you. Getting hit by your second fair, Dolphin Slash. Plus, they've got range with their sword. And the jab > f-smash is so rough. Dancing Blade is a pain, too. Even though I kind of know what to expect from Marcina, I have to play patiently. Honestly, I think I'd rather fight Rosaluma. This one Marth main I used to fight, he'd two stock me a lot. I changed up my game plan and started winning more often, but it gave me a headache having to read his patterns, bait and punish.

Yeah, i can undderstand that. Having to constantly try to read their moves consciously is one of the things i hate doing. Especially since somehow i NEVER win against my cousin who doesn't play ever, and is a for glory link. Seriously I hate playing him. He won't play me lately tho because he's the kind of jerk who doesn't understand what its like to play against FG links, and doesn't understand salt, and is a general douche. To be honest, i think my cousin is one of the worst types of people, but somehow i still want to do stuff with him.

 

[Problem2]

I do not like how generous the windows are for counters in Smash 4 compared to past iterations in the series, but they're not impossible to deal with. Also do not like that so many characters have a counter. Let's see, we have:

Peach
Greninja
Little Mac
Palutena
Shulk
Marth
Lucina
Ike
Roy
Corrin
Bayonetta

and I think Sword Fighter Mii.

EDIT: Forgot Lucario. Thanks Matt11111

Sakurai please!!

 

[Matt11111]

I do not like how generous the windows are for counters in Smash 4 compared to past iterations in the series, but they're not impossible to deal with. Also do not like that so many characters have a counter. Let's see, we have:

Peach
Greninja
Little Mac
Palutena
Shulk
Marth
Lucina
Ike
Roy
Corrin
Bayonetta

and I think Sword Fighter Mii.

Sakurai please!!

Correct. Mii Swordfighter has a counter. So does Lucario, by the by.

 

[Uffe]

Yeah, i can undderstand that. Having to constantly try to read their moves consciously is one of the things i hate doing. Especially since somehow i NEVER win against my cousin who doesn't play ever, and is a for glory link. Seriously I hate playing him. He won't play me lately tho because he's the kind of jerk who doesn't understand what its like to play against FG links, and doesn't understand salt, and is a general douche. To be honest, i think my cousin is one of the worst types of people, but somehow i still want to do stuff with him.

I'm going to guess that he uses a lot of projectile and runs away. I don't know how your cousin plays, or what the definition of a FG Link is, but when it comes to characters like that, it's kind of hard to go in because of the walls (projectile) you have to go through first. If your cousin has Smash 4, then he probably does play. Some people say they don't play often or at all and if they're good, chances are they're playing. Of course, some people are naturally good at this game and can go months without playing. I don't know how that works, but I wish everything I've learned would just stay in my brain as if it were words in a book.

 

[Arrei]

I do not like how generous the windows are for counters in Smash 4 compared to past iterations in the series, but they're not impossible to deal with. Also do not like that so many characters have a counter. Let's see, we have:

Peach
Greninja
Little Mac
Palutena
Shulk
Marth
Lucina
Ike
Roy
Corrin
Bayonetta

and I think Sword Fighter Mii.

EDIT: Forgot Lucario. Thanks Matt11111

Sakurai please!!

The thing you've got to remember is we have a huge roster by now, so just like we get more projectile, or more rushdown, or more etc. characters, we're going to get more characters with counters. Although I really think Peach and Palutena didn't need counters, they don't really fit them even if Kid Icarus Uprising had a Counter item on which Palutena's is based.

 

[Gamehowitzer]

I'm going to guess that he uses a lot of projectile and runs away. I don't know how your cousin plays, or what the definition of a FG Link is, but when it comes to characters like that, it's kind of hard to go in because of the walls (projectile) you have to go through first. If your cousin has Smash 4, then he probably does play. Some people say they don't play often or at all and if they're good, chances are they're playing. Of course, some people are naturally good at this game and can go months without playing. I don't know how that works, but I wish everything I've learned would just stay in my brain as if it were words in a book.

Yeah you got it.

 

[MarioManTAW]

The thing you've got to remember is we have a huge roster by now, so just like we get more projectile, or more rushdown, or more etc. characters, we're going to get more characters with counters. Although I really think Peach and Palutena didn't need counters, they don't really fit them even if Kid Icarus Uprising had a Counter item on which Palutena's is based.

I agree that Peach having a counter is a bit odd, but she's had a counter as long as counters have been in Smash.

 

[Arrei]

Aye, but no reason they couldn't switch up her moveset like how Mario Tornado became FLUDD. Maybe with something from Super Princess Peach?

 

[Crystanium]

If we consider Witch Time as a counter (it is, it just works differently), then Salem was using that effectively in a recent tournament.

 

[KirbCider]

While a lot has been said in this topic (which I'm a little late on replying to), and I may end up repeating what has been said but I figure I'll go ahead and post my thoughts. Firstly, counters aren't these unstoppable "One Button Press to Win" moves like you say.

Counters can actually be harmful to you when you use them stupidly. For starters, I can't tell you how many Little Macs or Shulks that tried to counter when I was off stage or when they were trying to recover. Since their Counters cause them to slide forward it often led to a Little Mac flying off stage and being unable to recover, or a Shulk going under the Stage and dooming himself. That's far from "One Button Press to Win" since you're screwing yourself by even attempting it. Plus you can also read counters as well.

Someones spamming counter like no tomorrow? Delay your attack or grab them. Also, someone should feel free to correct me on this portion, but doesn't some counters knockbacks and percents given relate to the attack they're countering themselves? Plus you have some characters like Shulk and Bayonetta that suffer the more they try to Counter as well. Also far from unstoppable.

Counters can be pretty useful when you know how to use them. I had people use them to escape certain combos a lot of the time, punishing me for even attempting to do said combo on them. I personally like edge guarding people with Bayonettas Witch Time.

Why?

Cause characters with damaging Up Bs will cause it to activate. After that usually all I have to do is Witch Twist to knock them out of their Up B, and use her Down Smash or Side Smash to finish them off. It's actually super satisfying and no one often expects me to just drop off stage and use it instead of some other move. I seem to catch A LOT of people off guard by doing it, and sometimes they're just forced to recover right into it. They can always read me though or be smart about their recover, but it's kinda nice to do.

Counters are only as effective as you make them.

It's not like I win every single match with it either. Sometimes I miss read them (or they read me) or my calculations were just off.

 

[Arrei]

Someones spamming counter like no tomorrow? Delay your attack or grab them. Also, someone should feel free to correct me on this portion, but doesn't some counters knockbacks and percents given relate to the attack they're countering themselves? Plus you have some characters like Shulk and Bayonetta that suffer the more they try to Counter as well. Also far from unstoppable.

It's different by character - Marth, Lucina, Mac, Swordfighter, Ike, Roy, Corrin, Palutena, and Shulk's counters all have a percent modifier on the countered move, as well as a minimum damage the counter will deal if they counter a very weak hit. The damage the counter deals determines the knockback it has, independent of how strong the actual countered move's knockback is. (So countering Finishing Touch just gives you a minimum power counter despite the immense risk involved, for example.) Of these, only Ike and Corrin have counters capable of killing on-stage with the minimum hit without reaching extremely high percents.

Peach, Greninja, and Lucario's counters instead deal fixed damage and knockback (scaling with aura in Lucario's case), which simply scale high enough to kill at higher percent.


But yeah, counters are super scary edgeguard tools against characters that are forced to throw out a hitbox with their recoveries, and not just Witch Time. A few like Mac, Lucario, and Shulk's are really bad options for doing this, but most everyone else can just plant themselves in their opponents path and get a free counter. You really need to mixup your recovery to get around this, either by changing up your path or your timing.

 

[SJMistery]

They technically ARE unbalanced, but only because only a few fighters have them. I personally would like all fighters have a top-notch counter, replacing the shield.

I guess I am biased tough, I main Greninja and Corrin, and I just love gimping or finishing my oponents off with Substitute or Counter Surge, especially offstage where they can't use a quick infinite jab or a shield to block Substitute and troll me.

#CountersForEveryCarachter

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This is the thread where "Git Gud" applies the most.

Counters are the easiest thing in the world to deal against.

All you have to do is not do anything or throw.

If your opponent counters you, it means they outplayed you, which is "true skill".

Just good reflexes and planning.

Isn't that a sign of a good player? LMAO.

 

[Coonstrudel]

Hello again.
I would like to start off by apologizing for my hate on Counters that I demonstrated last time I was on this thread. Probably wasn't a good first topic to start off on.
I made it out of anger and frustration, to be honest. It's just hard to try having fun on a game with a mechanic that's so critically devastating. I've looked up ways to counter...counters. Grabbing, not being predictable, other stuff. Nothing has worked for me. I've been trying extra hard to practice against these types of characters, cause I'm attending an upcoming tournament on YouTube. I just rage quit again, after literally being carried off the stage by a Lucina player and being KO's...Twice.

To put it bluntly, I don't really fancy characters with counters. Mostly FE characters. They just seem to have the strongest. I mean, I can throw a non smash attack, and they'll destroy me. Everyone else might not find anything wrong with that, and that's OK. But I myself, can't understand how it's fair.
Why do we need counters? We can dodge. It's hairpulling when I'm playing as a non-counter character against one that can counter, and it feels like they always have the upperhand. Even when I'm confident in my ability to win, my confidence is shattered not long after. This People say the counter cant be abused, but I've seen people just go the whole round using the thing. And I'm not fond of having to grab an opponent just to deal some minor damage. I'm not one for playing it safe in this game. That's just me.

I'm probably sounding whiny right now, but I don't mean to. This is seriously making me upset. All I want is some clean fair fun. Instead it just feels like the odds are against me when I see a counter character. Counters are just another way of punishment and defense. I get that. But I don't get why it's not limited. (For example giving it a cooldown, instead of just endlag, or only being able to use it a certain amount of time per round) I'm trying to be mature about this, unlike last time. I'm not even hating this time around. I just want to know why this mechanic exists, and why after a few years of trying to overcome it, I can't. It's been one of my dreams to attend a tournament, and right now, I'm having second thoughts.

I don't want to get my chance just to be destroyed in a matter of seconds. I could say the odds of me battling a FE character are low, but then again, there are 5 of them, excluding Roy, who I don't think has a counter, and then there are the other counter characters.

I also apologize for making this so lengthy. And as a side thing: How in the world do I get out of Lucina's red sword combos? I try everything, but...ehhhh.. I'm practicing as hard as I can.