My Problem with Counters

[SJMistery]

The best way to defeat counters is to bait them: For example, use a charged attack, but keep charging for a while and release it right after they counter. You will kill them 99%of the time even at medium to low percents.

 

[Coonstrudel]

The best way to defeat counters is to bait them: For example, use a charged attack, but keep charging for a while and release it right after they counter. You will kill them 99%of the time even at medium to low percents.

Thank you, I'll try it.

 

[MacSmitty]

Roy has a counter. The only FE character that doesn't have a counter is Robin.

 

[SJMistery]

Nasferatu should have worked as a counter for balance instead of having that minute-long respawn time.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Try playing a character with a counter and learn from the way your opponents counter-play you.

 

[Linkip]

Hello again.
I would like to start off by apologizing for my hate on Counters that I demonstrated last time I was on this thread. Probably wasn't a good first topic to start off on.
I made it out of anger and frustration, to be honest. It's just hard to try having fun on a game with a mechanic that's so critically devastating. I've looked up ways to counter...counters. Grabbing, not being predictable, other stuff. Nothing has worked for me. I've been trying extra hard to practice against these types of characters, cause I'm attending an upcoming tournament on YouTube. I just rage quit again, after literally being carried off the stage by a Lucina player and being KO's...Twice.

To put it bluntly, I don't really fancy characters with counters. Mostly FE characters. They just seem to have the strongest. I mean, I can throw a non smash attack, and they'll destroy me. Everyone else might not find anything wrong with that, and that's OK. But I myself, can't understand how it's fair.
Why do we need counters? We can dodge. It's hairpulling when I'm playing as a non-counter character against one that can counter, and it feels like they always have the upperhand. Even when I'm confident in my ability to win, my confidence is shattered not long after. This People say the counter cant be abused, but I've seen people just go the whole round using the thing. And I'm not fond of having to grab an opponent just to deal some minor damage. I'm not one for playing it safe in this game. That's just me.

I'm probably sounding whiny right now, but I don't mean to. This is seriously making me upset. All I want is some clean fair fun. Instead it just feels like the odds are against me when I see a counter character. Counters are just another way of punishment and defense. I get that. But I don't get why it's not limited. (For example giving it a cooldown, instead of just endlag, or only being able to use it a certain amount of time per round) I'm trying to be mature about this, unlike last time. I'm not even hating this time around. I just want to know why this mechanic exists, and why after a few years of trying to overcome it, I can't. It's been one of my dreams to attend a tournament, and right now, I'm having second thoughts.

I don't want to get my chance just to be destroyed in a matter of seconds. I could say the odds of me battling a FE character are low, but then again, there are 5 of them, excluding Roy, who I don't think has a counter, and then there are the other counter characters.

I also apologize for making this so lengthy. And as a side thing: How in the world do I get out of Lucina's red sword combos? I try everything, but...ehhhh.. I'm practicing as hard as I can.

First of all, if you're playing against level 9 cpu's, they can just counter at the perfect time all the time so i recommend to stop playing against them.

Also, Falcon uses grabs a lot, to me it seems as if you are using Smash Attacks when you could be using Grab or bair.
Also it sounds like that Lucina you're playing is just really good with edge guarding. Or you just have a very predictable way of recovering, i mean it's hard to be original with Falcon's recovery.

If you see people spamming counter, You need to grab them. If you don't like dishing out minor damage from grabs you are the problem. You just need to if you wanna win because grabs are a very useful mechanic of the game and are practically made to mess with defensive players who use shield/counter.

Also everyone has characters that are hard to deal with so maybe you just need to deal with it and try not to fight FE characters

But at the end of the day. Just grab.

 

[Frihetsanka]

You need to grab them.

Or bait the counter and punish with a smash attack.

 

[Coonstrudel]

First of all, if you're playing against level 9 cpu's, they can just counter at the perfect time all the time so i recommend to stop playing against them.

Also, Falcon uses grabs a lot, to me it seems as if you are using Smash Attacks when you could be using Grab or bair.
Also it sounds like that Lucina you're playing is just really good with edge guarding. Or you just have a very predictable way of recovering, i mean it's hard to be original with Falcon's recovery.

If you see people spamming counter, You need to grab them. If you don't like dishing out minor damage from grabs you are the problem. You just need to if you wanna win because grabs are a very useful mechanic of the game and are practically made to mess with defensive players who use shield/counter.

Also everyone has characters that are hard to deal with so maybe you just need to deal with it and try not to fight FE characters

But at the end of the day. Just grab.

I mean, the Lucina player killed me within seconds, and there was nothing I could do, even if I could break out of the combo. I was already against the blast zone. What's the point in playing Smash Bros if you're just gonna take out your opponent in a quick and uninspired way? It's supposed to be fun. I'm trying to have a good time, but it's stuff like that that irritates me.

What's the point in having all these abilities, if it comes down to me having to use grab 80% of the match just to beat a FE character? They don't have to play it safe, because they have the magic life ending button. I understand that I need to grab, and that it's mandatory to win certain matches, but I'm just not a fan of it. We have all these different combos so that grabbing doesn't have to be the only option.

I'm trying to get used to FE characters, cause I might face a few during the tournament. I mean, it's all I've been putting my energy into lately. So for all this stuff to be happening, is really disheartening. I mean, if grabbing is the key to victory, then i'll grab. But I don't agree with having to do it just so that I don't get blasted sky high.

 

[Frihetsanka]

You don't have to grab, you can simply either use a move that is faster than their counter or wait until the counter is over and then punish. It sounds like you have a mental hangup with counter. Do you get as annoyed if your opponent jabs you instead? If you charge a smash attack and they use a counter, then they could've used some other move instead, such as jab or up-tilt (Lucina's jab is frame 5, up-tilt frame 6, counter frame 6). Corrin's counter is frame 7, while her down-tilt and jab are frame 5.

Do you use smash attacks a lot?

 

[MacSmitty]

What's the point in having all these abilities, if it comes down to me having to use grab 80% of the match just to beat a FE character? They don't have to play it safe, because they have the magic life ending button. I understand that I need to grab, and that it's mandatory to win certain matches, but I'm just not a fan of it. We have all these different combos so that grabbing doesn't have to be the only option.

Every character in this game has that "one move" that players must work around in order to beat them in a match. Also, tournament players typically don't counter often like you seem to be presenting based on your words, so maybe the people you play against keep on reading you to easily.

 

[Linkip]

I mean, the Lucina player killed me within seconds, and there was nothing I could do, even if I could break out of the combo. I was already against the blast zone. What's the point in playing Smash Bros if you're just gonna take out your opponent in a quick and uninspired way? It's supposed to be fun. I'm trying to have a good time, but it's stuff like that that irritates me.

What's the point in having all these abilities, if it comes down to me having to use grab 80% of the match just to beat a FE character? They don't have to play it safe, because they have the magic life ending button. I understand that I need to grab, and that it's mandatory to win certain matches, but I'm just not a fan of it. We have all these different combos so that grabbing doesn't have to be the only option.

I'm trying to get used to FE characters, cause I might face a few during the tournament. I mean, it's all I've been putting my energy into lately. So for all this stuff to be happening, is really disheartening. I mean, if grabbing is the key to victory, then i'll grab. But I don't agree with having to do it just so that I don't get blasted sky high.

The Lucina player was just good.
Done.
I'm sure it was pretty fun for the person who won.

And there are other ways of punishing counter, but you were saying people use them all game long, in which case grab is the best option. I think it all comes down to having to hit them when they least expect. If they use it when ever you charge a smash attack, stop trying to kill them with Smash attacks. (Or charge until the counter is over and hit them then.) Raptor boost can kill, if you can get them of stage Fair or Dair can kill. You just need to stop using predictable options.

Also, you are a Captain Falcon main you don't need to "play it safe" reading doesn't really mean that. Often times reading is the most hype thing a player could do. You could tell they are using a counter so you can start a elegant combo (As long as you can time your attacks to his counters or just out speed him) instead of smash attacking straight into it. Meanwhile Marth has to space his attacks and generally be a spacey type of character. His "Magic life ending button" is only as good as his opponent is predictable.

 

[Sir_TwinkyOfHope]

TC, if you're losing that badly to counters. It simply means that you are playing in an extremely predictable way.

Your opponent is reading your moves and knows when you are going to attack.

If you try playing as a character with counters, you will quickly learn that you can't spam it to victory. It is too high risk and easily punishable to use mindlessly.

 

[SJMistery]

WAIT. LEt me get this straight.
You have problems WITH THE COMPUTER PLAYERS?
You know that simply by spamming very slow attacks, chargeable projectiles, or fully charged Smash attacks over and over from a distance, they will immediately to roll/airdodge, then run right in your face, and let themselves get hit by the attack?

 

[FamilyTeam]

Awwwwww boy... I come back to read my messages and I find this.
So, yeah, a few things:

• The Lucina player was just skilled. It happens
• Dancing Blade (the "red sword move") either hits the whole cycle and is inescapable or it doesn't and is very easily escapable. It almost never works all the way until KO% unless you're at the ledge with rage or you are playing where the whole cycle will always connect until after KO%.This makes the move seem broken, but unlike what a few people who claim that they "main" Marcina might say, Dancing Blade is a pretty high commit move in addition to being extremely unsafe on shield. Some characters can mash jump out of the cycle at very low percents or after mid percents, other can hit the user straight out of the move if they have a fast enough aerial.
  
• You need to learn how to balance the Attack>Block>Grab triangle. That's counterplay. In general, FE characters (probably Lucina more than all of the others) could be considered Bruiser-Zoners: They always keep space with their disjoint and use their highly damaging moves to start very high percent combos as quick as possible and finish their opponent's stock as early as they can. You learn how to fight them, and it can be a whole lot more easy to deal with them. What do Marcinas like? Unsafe approaches, especially aerial ones. This often comes from people not respecting their disjoint's power and range, and 11 times out of 10 they lose the match because of it. This leads to people whining and crying on Youtube comments and this forum saying that Marcina are Top 10 even though the way they play the matchup would earn them a loss even against 1.0.0 Marcina. What do they not like? Pressure. Their disadvantage state is bad and exploitable, they're very prone to being juggled, they have zero safe ways to land and if you don't let them zone you out, they have a poor point-blank range game. This is why really good Sheiks and Foxes can really mess up a Marcina player's life. Don't challenge their range, find ways to punish them.

Matchup study, mate. Matchup study.
What am I doing here, again?

 

[KirbCider]

I mean, the Lucina player killed me within seconds, and there was nothing I could do, even if I could break out of the combo. I was already against the blast zone. What's the point in playing Smash Bros if you're just gonna take out your opponent in a quick and uninspired way? It's supposed to be fun. I'm trying to have a good time, but it's stuff like that that irritates me.

It honestly sounds like that Lucina player was just good and could read you like a book.

On top of that, it also sounds like you had no idea what to do in that situation nor how to counter everything that Lucina player was doing. So what if they have a counter. There's more to a character (whether they have a counter or not) than you think.

There's proper spacing, auto-cancelling, knowing what move is safe in what situation, and most importantly: reading. There's also of course Match-ups to worry about as well. Some characters naturally don't have a fighting chance against others so you have to be pretty cautious and skilled to be able to flip the tables. When I'm playing King Dedede it's certainly no fun going against a Marth/Lucina, nor characters with projectile attacks for that matter. King Dedede is a huge, slow target. It's kinda lop-sided.

Despite that, it's still possible to turn things around as long as I'm patient and think clearly. It'd just be a bit difficult.

What's the point in having all these abilities, if it comes down to me having to use grab 80% of the match just to beat a FE character? They don't have to play it safe, because they have the magic life ending button. I understand that I need to grab, and that it's mandatory to win certain matches, but I'm just not a fan of it. We have all these different combos so that grabbing doesn't have to be the only option.

No character has a magical life ending button.

A lot of them can have super powerful attacks, but they have to be able to... Ya know, use them effectively.

And again, there's a lot more to a character than certain moves/abilities they possess and yes, they certainly do have to play it safe. Grabbing is important whether you're facing a character with a counter or not. Some characters can start combos from grabs and KO someone with a throw. Plus it's just handy to take on someone who shields often, or can be used as a mix up.

Do not ignore grabs whether you're a fan of them or not. That may be your problem.

However, of course grabbing isn't the only option there is...

Baiting is a big thing that can be helpful. Trick them into thinking you'll do an aerial so they'll try to counter, but land instead and punish. Hold your Smash attack and wait till the counter is done. You definitely have options other than just grabbing to deal with them, but if you ignore grabbing outright you're going to have a harder time. You don't have to grab 24/7 because that will become predictable, but you really need to learn how to use it as a mix up and know it's helpful against some moves.

Do not go into a Tournament and "Not be a fan of grabs".

Also, don't be afraid to show us your gameplay instead of just posting about it. We could help a lot more if we can actually see the matches unfold instead of just read short summaries about them, other wise we can only assume and suggest things/advice.