My Marth Vs IC's, Advice/Analysis

[JesiahTEG]

Yo, what's up Marth boards. I just had a tournament this weekend where I Played an IC's named Nintendude. He's a great player, IC's counterpicks were on, and Wobbling was as well.

I basically love improving and eventually want to go down as one of the greatest of all time. That being said, I have new vids of my Marth and figured, in addition to posting them and getting feedback/advice from everyone, (Niko where you at!?) I figured it'd be a REALLY good opportunity for me to break down why my Marth is the way it is and my goals with him, and kind of analyze it with you guys and take him to a whole different level.

The reason why I think now is a good opportunity to do this, is because I've spent the majority of my Smash career figuring everything out on my own. I used to watch a lot of vids maybe like a year and half, two years ago, but now I barely EVER watch vids.

I have this theory that, the very very top level players, the best of the best, come up with everything on their own, or at least most of their playstyle. Like, the core foundations of their playstyle are a manifestation of their uniqueness as a player, despite whatever lil tricks or whatnot they may have learned from videos.

Could be wrong, could be right, whatever. The point is that I have been following this general principle that I kinda came up with for a long time now. Now I have a car though, and now I'll be able to travel more. I've taken my Marth pretty freakin far so far, and I think right now, as I shift into a different phase of my life, my Smash game also needs to evolve with it.

I'm willing to scrap my old improvement methods, just like how I've done in the past, and evolve. At least, that's the goal.

I figure the best way to do that, and to get the maximum improvement I can, would be to go to the Marth experts and see what they think.

And I'm DEFINITELY going to be more than willing and grateful to anyone who contributes. Even people may not quite be up there with me, feel free to share, because there are probably a lot of things you guys know about Marth or what I should be doing/could be doing better that I don't.

From the top level Marths though, or at least anyone who feels like they have a good enough understanding of the character and what's required at the highest levels of play, think of this as an experiment. Seriously, and honestly this should help all of us anyways.

Try and picture a Marth that was more dominant than even Armada is right now. Pretend right now that I just rose to the top of the metagame, and the only thing you knew about my Marth beforehand was from the vids that I'm posting. What would my Marth look like as the best? What would have had to change in my mindset, my mentality to have gotten me from the vids to the top? What little nuances/tricks did I not know about in the vids that I use when I need to now? What knowledge did I gain that shows in my gameplay that I didn't have before?

Actually, we could do this for anyone I guess. If you want to we can, too. But I'm really curious/excited to see what people think/which direction I should take my Marth in. I'm going to be analyzing these vids myself and posting some deep theory that should be good discussion for anyone. Here are the vids:

In my mind, I'm back to the lab again. Back to the gym, back to getting in there and grinding mentally, learning, implementing, perfecting. It's grind time for me.

WINNERS FINALS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4-PwgyO8yg

GRAND FINALS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRK1NbocNUk

I really encourage you to start with Winners Finals too, because, while I did win all of those matches, they were really close, so they're really similar to the Grand Finals matches anyways.

Thanks in advance, and I hope you guys don't mind reading a lot of writing from me :-P

 

[JesiahTEG]

Breakdown of My Marth

I'm actually really excited to post/think about this.

So, in order to explain to you why my Marth is the way it is, you kinda have to understand my philosophy on high level play.

I feel that, to be able to compete at the highest levels of play, you have to...well...BE THAT GOOD. I never believed in gimmicks, or tricks, or relying on counterpicks. I did however have to learn the hard way, that it's best to focus on only one character, and not to run from matchups you think are difficult, until you've taken your character as far as you can mentally go in that matchup, and I'm nowhere near those levels yet.

I used to switch characters from Marth often, before Niko rocked me and I made the decision to focus almost solely on Marth.

I started off watching Ken, Azen and then in 07, M2K. Ken was always my smash idol lol, but just like everyone else, when M2K's Marth came out, I tried to copy everything. I wish I didn't do this back then, and I wish I had developed the critical thinking skills and creativity that I've been focusing on for the past 2 years.

I mean, I want to get to the top SO badly, you have no idea. But I also don't want to skip my way there, and quite honestly at this point, I don't think you can. I think you just have to put in the work and figure things out on your own. The better you are at figuring everything out on your own, IMO, the more unique of a playstyle you have, and that type of playstyle requires a very comprehensive understanding of Melee itself, as a competitive game, your character, and your skills as a player.

Many people claim to be masters of understanding how Melee works, but I've always believed that you only know as much as the level you're at as a player. Until you can IMPLEMENT what you THINK you know, then you can't say for certain whether or not it will work.

So all that being said, I guess you could sum my playstyle up, or at least how I"ve tried to develop it so far, as just always be far, far better than your opponent. In every way.

This has led to interesting developments in my game that I wanna point out/I hope you see/notice, such as how I'm ALWAYS trying to out think my opponents. I'm always trying to fight THEM, not their character. Mind vs mind. This leads to a lot of bait/reaction in my gameplay. However, it also leads to me making a lot of guesses and a lot of times those really mess me up and make me look like a noob.

So anyone who wants to participate, this should be fun.

I'm gonna start analyzing the vids.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Analysis of Winners Finals​

0:05- My strategy for Blizzard was just to always stay close to them so that if they blizzarded I could dtilt through it and Fsmash through/stuff their approach if they try and come through it. I didn't prethink of this, it's just kind of a result of me always trying to use Marth's range to his advantage. I like to be as aggressive with my sword as possible, to exert as much advantage over my range as possible.

This however can be a downfall sometimes, and leads me to take risks and get messed up/punished for them.

After this, I fight Sopo for a while for the first time in the set. It's clear to me that I messed up when handling this lil dude. My friend Bob pointed out to me, and unless you guys have a better suggestion this is what I will be doing from now on...He told me to just "stalk" Sopo, and force him to do dumb things and make mistakes. Basically the way I think of it, I should have always been in threatening range, but just used the "threatening" factor more than "I'm actually going to try and hit you." Make him react to me threatening him with my space. What's he afraid of in this range? What does he expect is coming? How do I fake that and counter that?

I mean, I really wanna lock this Sopo down next time HARD. In my mind, I kind of have a vision for how I want to play the IC's match. I want it to be a sort of beautiful, fluid, systematic destruction. Let's say you take this match and break it down into the following:

-Fighting both IC's in Neutral
-Beginning of Separation-End of Nana
-Fighting Sopo in Neutral
-First hit on Sopo-Death

The way I see it, I want to be able to handle each of these areas with mastery and perfection, and fluidly transition from each stage to the next. It shouldn't even look like I focus on each part separately. It just kind of needs to, from the outside, look like Marth completely shuts down IC's. People watching it need to think IC's don't stand a chance vs a Marth that knows the matchup inside and out and has perfected fighting them, exerting all of Marth's advantages.

My gameplan is much more generalized right now, but now that I have vids, I can hopefully figure out many things that will help me master each of these areas. Hopefully you can too. Moving on... :-P


0:39- If I wanted to play it safe and lock him down, I could have jabbed after the nair hit his shield. But, if I wanted to play perfect, I could have nair'd the shield, then DD'd away and punished with grab, Up B, or even better, tipper Dair to Tipper Fsmash. These are the kind of decisions I need help making.

0:42- Got off the ledge like a nub, but I think overall I did alright gettin off the edge, so I won't focus so much on that. To me, that's just a combination of advanced mental rock paper scissors, outthinking your opponent and being good with the space you have.

0:54- I should have done something. An Up B would have been brilliant since he just ran up and grabbed, but how am I supposed to know he's going to do that? I didn't wanna WD backwards OOS since IC's can chase RIDICULOUSLY quickly and a crazy amount of distance with their WD, which usually leads to Dsmash. Maybe jump and airdodge OOS onto the top left part of the platform? Don't really want to roll or dodge because that just leads to bad habits...Or maybe I could mix those in to create a guessing game in this same situation?

The situation is, I tech and he is obviously going to be very close to me when I can move again, and I'm only going to have a split second to do something. I gotta maximize these each time.

1:00- This is cool, I do a side B and instead of just trying to connect it, I follow his double jump and render it useless with a Uair. Failure to punish properly and convert to the kill though due to stupid Side B descending recovery. GOTTA THINK OF A WAY TO BEAT THAT EVERY TIME. Do I just need to be better and more precise at chasing it? Is there a more effective method so I won't get tapped by that dumb *** hammer and then have them squirm away?

1:09- I do a good job of getting far enough away from the ledge so he can't surprise me with invincible WD onto ledge and hit me. He tries though and I snipe him with Up B.

I LOVE Up B btw. I think I'm in a stage where I'm trying to push this move to the limits. You'll see me use it to punish things like dodges/rolls and missed attacks with it. It's so fast, I think of it like a trigger. If I know something is gonna happen, I can bait with DD and punish with Up B.

I do NOT want to get rid of this aspect of my game, I think it's amazing. Rather, I want to develop it, and polish it off. I have to stop missing with it, and somehow get to the point where it's just absolutely automatic.

And even against AMAZING players (Hbox is who I'm specifically thinking of now), certain baits work, like doing a SH while they're shielding right towards them, making it look like you're going to land right in front of their shield, and the second they grab, usually right before Marth lands, PULL THAT UP B TRIGGER.

The potential of this move has not been reached yet, IMO. And the way I see it, I have to increase my overall skill level if I want to use this tool as effectively as I can, and being forced to become better to use a move is a good thing.

Thoughts on this?

1:17- I love Utilt, especially vs IC's. It's quick as hell and has KO power and is just perfect for things Fsmash can't get to, or you don't want to risk the lag of Fsmash. I think something I learned is that, to get the most out of Utilt, you're forced to have amazing movement. If you want to stalk from below, or even chase people with Utilt, you have to be able to have very precise perfect WD's, as well as the ability to do a perfectly spaced WD out of a DD, and then quickly turn around and Utilt in some situations.

1:27- Yeah, I gotta get WAY better with Fsmash. Just get punished for it soooooo much in this set. Time for some Fsmash philosophy...

I think of this KIND of similarly to Up B, but different at the same time. I think at my peak, I'll end up using this move more than most Marths. I'd rather use it more than not, honestly. My thought process is that, a good Marth will understand how he threatens with Fsmash, by being in a certain range, or doing certain things with Marth that give him a "body language" that telegraphs that an Fsmash is coming. Learning how to use this to threaten is necessary for a good Marth.

A GREAT Marth however, will ALWAYS be threatening with it, BUT accurately and swiftly actually using it and punishing it when he can. Therefore, he's making the most out of his threats, and he's making the threats even deadlier. They're even more scared to do anything out of shield, they're even more scared to run up and grab you when they think you're just bluffing an Fsmash.

And when this happens, they play YOUR game more. This, IMO, is a great foot in your door as a Marth player to take control of the "Mental Game," and force your will onto your opponent. It's a way for you to begin to control them, and control the pace of the match, and ultimately you always want to be doing this.

1:33- I dair'd on recovery, kind of calling him out on for being too close and thinking I wouldn't actually do it. That's kind of a risky guess especially at a high percent, but I think that by being at a higher percent vs a good player, they have a slight expectation that you will only try to do safe things.

And also, it's an aggressive way of not playing their game. Of not letting them mentally dictate where you choose to recover to. It's not a good thing to do if they know it's coming, but the goal is to mentally always be ahead anyways, so that's something I have to work on. Knowing when to recover in unorthodox ways and when to play it safe. What do you think is a general ratio at higher levels of play for this? 80-20 safe/risky? Less, more?

1:34- I wanted to control my space and make him back up, or catch him when he made a mistake, but I completely didn't realize that instead of spacing Fair, I could hvae grabbed Popo. That's just an awareness issue.

That's crazy to think about. If I want to play this matchup perfectly, I have to be able to control what I"m doing with the limited space I have in this position, while also being able to dictate how safe I am when choosing to only mess with one of the IC's from fear of the other one messing everything up.

As soon as I hit Nana though, I should have attacked Popo. Dang.

Just noticed something important. When I hit Nana there, we both went into DD, then he WD'd in and grabbed. Idk why, but something just clicked to me. When I hit one of them, I kinda get a lil confused. Not confused, but I'm just not fully aware of which one I hit, which one can still move, etc. He obviously is. My dash attack got me grabbed there because I attacked in the confusion (He tomahawkd's too, gotta watch out for that. I shielded after the dash attack probably just because I was in high percent mode, so I felt like I needed to avoid a hit rather than a grab. Dumb. I must be precise and in control at all times.

1:45- I went for tech chase tipper Fsmash. I mistimed it by a split second. The spacing was absolutely perfect for a tipper though. That's not a bad decision, it's just that Popo's tech chase range is something I'm really not used to. But imo, that's a level of mastery off by a milisecond there. Feel free to disagree if you want. ( I say mastery because it's a tech chase tipper Fsmsah at 63%, which could have ended his entire stock at a relatively mid percent, which is something that if you can pull off using tipper Fsmash, as a Marth player, you should. It's an advantage of Marth that covers up for his weakness of having it be harder to kill at higher percents.)

He actually grabbed me here because I shielded after Fsmashing. I THINK I NEED TO BUFFER ROLL AFTER EVERY MISSED/SHIELDED ATTACK. Then turn it into a guessing game and win it. I'm starting to see that when I feel like I'm punished for sure, I actually have time to do stuff but it's just not a situation I'm used to so I haven't programmed myself to act out of logic and not reaction. That's good **** for me to know.

1:50- Get off me. Right after, on the platform though, I should have CC grabbed. Wow, I get so annoyed looking at me miss dumb stuff.

 

[JesiahTEG]

1:55- I crossed him over with a bair. I might have tomahawked, but I get scared that IC's might bair OOS or dodge and Dsmash. I think spaced dair was a good decision, but the scramble that ensued afterwards is something I'd like to avoid. I landed and he rolled and I could have just grabbed or Up B'd. I just shielded and rolled.

1:59- Pause the match at 1:59 and see how close I was to tippering him. I was trying to hit him with the back end of the tipper, the "lacrosse player" haha. Again, HUGE opportunity missed. Should these type of Fsmashes stop, or should I try to develop them further? I think I can eventually get them down perfectly, it's just REALLY hard and needs even more practice.

What do you think?

2:01- This is an example of threatening with Fsmash but using it improperly. The threat forced the roll. I need to learn the difference between threatening and punishing and actually going for it. I need help with this area. Any serious advice? Just try waiting longer than normal?

2:08- I tried to force something with a waveland, but my invincibility ran out and I got blizzard grabbed. Accidentally paused so we agreed he'd just kill me.

2:09- Tried to force a dodge, but he rolled. That's a DUMB time to take a risk and guess. I should have separated them. Jumped into blizzard and got tapped afterwards, but then CC'd a dair and got away easy.

2:27- Up B to cover them punishing me, but I think I shouldn't have done it reverse. Any suggestions?

2:38- I'm really happy about this. I force a dodge by running towards him, and perfectly tipper Fsmash. Good example of bait and punish with perfect spacing.

2:45- I avoided invincible climbers, separated Nana instantly as her invincibility ran out, out DD'd popo, then tried to finish it, and I could have, but Nana jabbed the hell out of me and I was forced to retreat.

THIS CANNOT HAPPEN. What could I have done in this situation to convert to a kill, or AT THE VERY LEAST Nana dead. I think how I should go about is taking the hard, long, but "controlled" way, and that's to grab nana and chuck her, and then from there play it by reaction. Keep them both separated and mix in grabs and slashes and mindgames to eventually rack up damage on both and kill nana.

2:49- Dash attack hits, I go for reverse nair on nana, cuz I thought I had time, but Popo drops through top platform and hits me in my lag, then pushes me off the ledge and kills me, which is a dumb death. Should have light shielded and angled it at them. WAY TOO EARLY A PERCENT TO DIE.

2:56- Hit with Nair, I saw they were at low percent and wanted to separate. I mess up a falling Dair on the platform, cc and retreat with a fair.

3:00- I jump over popo, and I should have Up B'd nana due to the spacing we were at. He wouldn't be able to punish me very hard due to only having one IC and my percent being low. Or if I grabbed nana, could I have used the invincibility to throw her backwards and avoid getting Dsmashed? See I don't know that stuff, anyone got the answer? Instead I did a dashing Nair. Idk why.

3:02- DD'ing had him in react mode, dash attacked into Ken Combo on the nana. I had to go DEEP to get that haha. Favorite combo in the game though. After that, began to **** Nana, and thought I could combo into tipper Fsmash, but AGAIN just barely misspaced.

THEN I almost naile'd him with an Up B, but was too slow and he dodged it.

Right here I wanna stop for a second and ask an honest question.

Shoot I don't even know how to ask this...My playstyle so far, from what you've seen from the vid up to this point and analysis...It's like, I don't want to change the things that I'm messing up, if the decisions are right.

All the misspaced Fsmashes and misstimed Up B's, those are my mistakes. If you take away MY MISTAKES only, and act as though I didn't make those mistakes...Would I be ****** him? Because in my mind that's kinda how it looks, and if that's the case, I've structured my playstyle properly so far in my development. That means that I have the right ideas, I just need to get good enough to realize them.

I think I'm trying to play like a king, when I'm only currently skilled enough to play like an up and coming prince. To me, it looks like I'm controlling the match and baiting things properly, just making mistakes and getting owned for them.

Seriously, is this just me? Do you see this too? Let me know because this is a huge concept that I want really good opinions on.

3:13- Tried to dash attack and got punished. Should have stalked more and been more intelligently threatening, and then punished. This I think is my main downfall fighting Sopo.

3:17- I connect with a dash attack and I overestimated the amount of stun it would have, and tried to connect with a move that he was very far away from by the time I input it. That's just a lack of Marth mastery. I feel as though I'm usually pretty good with this, I usually don't try and connect combos that won't connect. Just goes to show how much more I need to learn.

3:20- Misses a dair and I don't do anything. Why. I think I thought it might connect. After that I try a waveland bait, and he falls for it, but I didn't go back far enough. Again, my mistake. An fsmash was coming. Maybe I shouldn't fsmash after everytime I think he's going to fall for a bait. Maybe I need to separate the bait from the punish, and begin to think more clearly in the moments in between.

3:35- Nair bait to Up B. Good. Basic edgeguard. I'm proud of this. We we're in neutral for more than 10 seconds. I took the initiative, and therefore the risk, and got a kill off of it. Needs moar proper execution after baits plox.

3:48- Good Dtilt, but let the blizzard stun me. I could have gotten away from that by doing anything after. Airdodge out, roll.

3:53- He messes up his edgeguard and I get the ledge. Instant offense, and that forces him into instant defense, as he Side B's away. I try to land a perfect dash attack, but missed. That dash attack would have definitely sent them into a nair, which could have ended in death for either of them. Can't be missing that. I hate the feeling of hunting my prey and taking risks and always chasing/pressuring, and then letting them wiggle out. So frustrating.

I swat Nana away after, then choose a really poorly spaced dash attack. Actually that's a tricky situation, what to do if I"m behind them and they're shielding? Maybe stand normally in range of them for a second to bait a bair, then dd away and punish with dash attack? Or Shield the baited Bair and punish with fair?

Luckily they miss their bair since I'm in lean animation from dash attack. (YES)

3:59- I do an awesome dair to get out of the scramble, and if you look closely it's the type of dair that is tricky to L cancel properly due to me rising with it and having to fastfall at an irregular time. Proud of myself for that one.

I then attack with fair and miss, but I cover it with a falling Uair which hits behind me as well. I felt kinda weird doing that since it's easy to mess up/ he coulda CC'd it. But whatever.

I try to pop Popo up with utilt but he airdodges. Luckily I manage to keep the pressure on Nana, eventually land a nair, and then chase it with a quick WD to perfect tipper due to popo teching to the right. Good Fsmash AND THE PERCENT HE WAS AT WHEN IT HIT WAS 59%. Even though I didn't kill off it, THAT"S A GOOD THING. That's why tippering IMO has to be staple for me, especially when I'm at almost 100% and it just turns the match in my favor by so much.

The real key lies in the mastery of understanding percents, yours vs theirs, feeling the flow of the match, having a good mental grasp on your opponent, precision with your tool (fsmash), and then blending them together to always get the most out of each tool. That's how I feel right now. I manage to end them and win match one.

I knew he wasn't coming back for sure, but just to make a statement, I swung that **** behind my head and charged. Haha, emotions definitely flow through me when I'm playing, that's for sure. Don't mind me freaking out at the end.

That's the end of match one. Gotta take a break.

 

[Mew2King]

Dair them randomly.

 

[Beat!]

Dtilt is ****

 

[Dr Peepee]

Like I already said, the main things I remember while watching WFs were that you got punished for empty hopping a little too much, and you dash attacked too much. You really shouldn't dash attack much at all if ever, but the empty hopping was okay at times and certainly made you more intimidating often. Just don't get carried away and remember that you still outrange ICs so keeping them reminded/stuffed with that range is just as important as threatening with that range, if not moreso.

I like up-B as you do, but I'd never do it on FD because there's not really an "out" if you miss or even less lag time if you connect. Up-B's tight on DL and maybe the other platformed stages though because you can go straight to the top platform and have your lag greatly reduced and maybe even be safe before the opponent can react to where you are.

That seems pretty good for starters.

 

[huMps]

Yah up-b on FD is kind of crazy. I liked your up-b punishes but some of them looked like you were using them to get yourself out of bad situations, which I don't think is a good idea lol.
That dash attack is the best thing you had going though IMO. Yeah it's risky as hell, especially with wobbling. But it lead to seperation almost every time.
I think against sopo you could do less cross-over aerials and empty hops. Play a lot more conservative. Keep him at the end of your sword and make him do something stupid and kill him for it.

 

[Beat!]

Dash attack is good when their shield is really small. Otherwise it's too risky imo, unless you have a sick read or it's obvious that it will hit.

So basically, wear down the shield first and start dash attacking/other offensive stuff after that.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I like what you said Beat. Use it as an extension of my offense/aggressiveness on their shield. Kevin, you have to agree though that the dash attacks I got really helped with separation and combo. But I know what you're saying about how easy it is to beat, especially with CC. I'm gonna work on perfecting when to use Dash Attack, instead of just making it a main weapon of my offense vs them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I agree the move is really good if it connects and people don't CC, but that is awful tempting and tends to force overuse of it a little from what I've seen/experienced personally. As long as you remember that, then I have no issue with you using the move in itself because it will be used less than what it was in that set.

How would you suggest one wear down a shield, Beat?

 

[JPOBS]

I didn't read all of the post's so sorry if you addressed this already, but what did you ban if not FD?
FD is ic's playground.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Jpbos- I banned Dreamland.

It was a tough choice and I thought a lot about what to ban the second set. I won on FD twice I believe in the first set. It's scary playing vs them there, but at the same time it makes it easier for me to punish Nana I feel. I don't have to do anything weird like predict if she's gonna jump on a platform (which messed me up quite a few times) or jump over one of them onto a platform to hit the other one.

Dreamland idk, I don't ever really like that stage as Marth. I felt like I was doing fine on FD though, idk. I knew a lot of people would disagree but it is what it is I suppose.

Also, just reposting this here to remind myself to look very in depth at this.

IC vs. Marth is evenish, but it's one of Marth's better top 8 matchups IMO.

The simple things to do are DI up against down throw down air and jump out.

Don't try to wall out with only aerials; good ICs will slip through if you have a definitive rhythm.

Down tilt is fantastic for stopping their approaches. It's really difficult to shield grab with the same tricks you do to Sheik. You can also go into short hop or jabs during the IASA frames to make it harder for them to time forward air approaches against repeated down tilts or forward smash approaches against your aerial keep out.

You can just short hop over ice blocks. (Also jab them)

Time your approaches against Ice Block spam with Popo's blocks since that's the one that he controls.

DON'T DO RANDOM FORWARD SMASHES WHILE THEY'RE ON THE GROUND. You will lose a stock for free if they shield it and it's not a tipper. If you ever feel compelled to Forward smash them while on the ground at least put some thought into it and tipper their shield.

Hit confirming forward air > forward smash is really good, especially if they're by the edge of the stage since Nana will usually get hit and Popo will either get hit or shield and slide to ledge.

You can forward air on top of their shield pretty safely and depending on positioning, you can just keep pushing them out. I wouldn't use down air TOO much on their shield, but neutral air is pretty good for covering everything if you're unsure how they're going to come at you.

You generally want to use forward throw if you grab them. It often pushes Nana/Popo away so you don't get forward/down smashed by the other one. You're also less vulnerable in general.

Take opportunities to safely kill Nana, but you have to recognize that Popo will try to stop you. You generally want to make sure Popo is controlled or play to wall them both out. Nana will slowly try to maneuver around you to make it back to Popo, observe carefully how Nana is influenced by your position and you can just keep swatting her away until she can't jump back anymore.

Don't sleep on SoPo. All it takes is one down smash and you're losing 60% or a stock. Even though IC damage is down, it greatly increases his maneuverability. He's going to be harder to hit, and he's going to look to counter every swing you take. I generally like to be more grab and jab heavy in this phase for that reason.

Be patient edgeguarding ICs. Deny the edge at every opportunity, watch and wait for air dodges, and don't overextend. SoPo has a tough time doing an aerial double jumping and recovering, and has a tough time dealing with up air and up tilt trying to land on the stage from above.

I know top ICs have gotten really good at the matchup and it's only going to get worse because they're hitting harder than ever. Always try to wiggle out of grabs, ESPECIALLY if Nana is out of position to force the down throw before hand offs can happen. If you're playing correctly, it should be difficult to get clean grabs on you. Nana should almost always be out of position or hit if you ever get grabbed.

If you do get grabbed by the edge... I think DIing up against hand offs makes it a little bit harder than DIing away. If they're on though... it's a stock so if you want to do stupid laggy stuff that gets you punished, try to do it in center stage at low percentages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Qy4tOjeTc

This match is from 3 years ago, I was super rusty (I still am relatively), but the general theory around the matchup still applies now. Since Wobbles is my roommate now and he's one of the best players in the world, I think I'm still doing pretty well in the match up today. He's gotten a lot better (obviously) and I'd say that now I probably win 70ish% of our matches depending on the day.

I like to reset my position a lot, especially in this matchup. They obviously don't want you to, especially if they just hit you. So that's where you need to be careful and not get sniped by back airs and down smashes. It will happen; you just gotta shake it off and focus on doing your job. This is one of the only high tier matchups where Marth can really keep someone out effectively. ICs just don't have quite the range or attack speed that other characters have.

FD isn't a bad stage for Marth in this matchup. Yoshi's is double edged but more in your favor. DL is only bad if you screw up your edgeguards and give ICs more chances or you fall behind and have to do long approaches against them. I'd say every neutral is fine against them, so I'd just figure out what stage that IC likes and remove it. FoD is a little too random for me, so I might ban that or DL depending on how I'm feeling.

I'm pretty confident that anyone that applies my strats and has better handles with Marth than me will beat any IC. You don't need to be fancy; you just have to control your character.

React and Deny.™

Last note: This is just my current take on the matchup currently. I used to think the matchup was even more in Marth's favor, almost a hard counter. ICs are hitting much harder than they used to, and they've gotten a lot better at timing approaches and slipping through Marth's wall outs. I'm pretty open to the idea this matchup will become even or even disadvantageous in the near future, but I still think it's Marth favored mainly because I've done really well against every IC I've ever played, and I still do well against Wobbles, who is undoubtedly an overall better player than me. I'm just a specialist.

1.) I would treat it similarly to ice block. Just being in position is enough to make them stop. If Nana is doing one, I wouldn't try to punish it, just invade more space. If Popo is doing one or if he does it AFTER Nana is doing one and you're just out of range, get ready to space a tipper forward smash. I suppose you can also just go in with a SHFFL forward air in between as well, but I haven't really looked at it much. I think I do a good enough job against blizzard that Wob doesn't spam it too much lately.

But it's generally pretty difficult to hard punish unless you're already just out of range so I usually just muscle my way in and make them uncomfortable generally. Looking to trade my second hit neutral air with it or something and just get anything that desyncs them.

2.) Down tilt on shield, do another one. IASA. ICs have a REALLY hard time slipping through between pokes. Or you can do Down tilt to jab if you're scared, down tilt > short hop is also pretty strong since it negates down smash for a moment and puts you in control to move forward or away with a fast fall forward air. I only dash or turn around if the down tilt is in shield grab range like we do against Sheik players.

3.) :D Thanks, I mostly just do it as kind of a "Zone Check™" (

Spoiler

I'm keeping that one

) whenever I get the feeling that I'm vulnerable if he decided to attack right then and I throw it there just incase to make him reconsider approaching me or attempt to punish him for approaching. Both of those moves are fast enough and have a second hit that has just enough range that if I DO see him move forward to slip in between, I can still keep him out most of the time.

So basically, I like using it to just cover myself and if I feel like he's going to move, to keep him in place or to keep him from getting to me.

4.) Marth isn't Fox/Peach. You can't just push a magic button on top of their shield that makes her go away. Just be patient, if you racked up the damage on Nana while not taking much damage yourself, it will pay off. Remember, as much as Nana boosts their damage, she also kind of hinders their movement and gives you a lingering hitbox as well as a projectile if you grab her and throw her at Popo, especially at higher percentages.

You don't necessarily need to chase her when she goes higher; you keep your eye on Popo until Nana is forced to cross your path, ideally. Then you can do quick aerials to keep them split until Popo wants to make a move or let her die. You generally don't want to go off stage to kill Nana unless Popo is nowhere to be seen or you can kill her and have plenty of options to make it back to stage without up Bing or air dodging (Try not to risk getting gimped by Popo)

Basically, when you swat her away, she will walk back through you and you can kill or knock her away again while you're pressuring Popo since your neutral and forward airs are very safe on their shield.

I haven't come up with a solid formula yet, but really, just watching and waiting is one of the best things you can do unless Popo is away from you. At which point, you just knock her *** out.

The overall goal is to land hits on either of them that forces desyncs. When they're split up it gets a lot easier to take control of the match. Even though SoPo is still viable, it is undoubtedly easier to deal with SoPo than worry about getting 0-deathed from your poorly spaced forward smash or forward air.

Just stay focused. Don't let yourself run into their bull****. Shake it off when they catch you, it will happen. Do your best to not overextend. Most of the time you can just sit there and keep knocking Popo away until he dies. Deny ledge when he goes low, up tilt when he goes high, and for everything else... there's forward smash.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah I agree the move is really good if it connects and people don't CC, but that is awful tempting and tends to force overuse of it a little from what I've seen/experienced personally. As long as you remember that, then I have no issue with you using the move in itself because it will be used less than what it was in that set.

How would you suggest one wear down a shield, Beat?

Mostly just careful and patient spacing with stuff like fairs and dtilts (dtilt *****!). If you can somehow get away with neutral-b unpunished then go for it. From my experience, ICs shield quite a lot in this matchup, so it will wear down naturally. No need to force it.

The matchup became a lot easier for me once I started view stuff like dash attacks and nairs as bonuses.

 

[Nintendude]

It's actually really interesting to read your notes on our match. I just hope you realize though that I made my fair share of awful mistakes as well. Lots of rolls were flubbed wd out of shields, dropped grab kills, missed short-hops, slow punishes, etc. Just a few specifics:

1:50 - you mention that you should have CC grabbed my dair. That dair was actually supposed to be a bair, and if you tried to CC'd that you would have died. Your best bet was just trying to get a shield out and hope that I'm too slow to punish (which I was a few times in this set).

1:55 - that roll was a flubbed WD out of shield. I was trying to wd oos d-smash you.

2:01 - your analysis is correct here. My timing on the roll was pretty lucky.

3:00 - you were in a really tricky spot and I was prepared to punish you if you overextended trying to kill Nana. Retreating ended up being the safest option here, especially because a mis-timed roll let you dash-attack Nana leading to the Ken combo on her.

4:03 - it's arguably this missed short-hop that let you solidify the comeback in this match. Instead of being safely on the ground, I landed on the platform and got naired and f-smashed because of it. I couldn't regain momentum and dropped the match.

Looking forward to more analysis soon! I'm curious about what Niko has to say too

 

[JesiahTEG]

Yeah I can tell you made a lot of mistakes dude.

But this is for my own benefit, as opposed to my posts in the tourney/results thread or anywhere else, so when it comes to this thread, i could really care less how good/bad you were playing, I just gotta say what's on my mind and get the feedback I need/want and take it from there.

Basically, none of this is intended to be disrespectful, but I'm not gonna sugar coat anything

 

[Nintendude]

It's all good. Again, I'm looking forward to more!

 

[Deleted member]

Banning DL64 was the right choice Jesse.

 

[JesiahTEG]

it's all good. Again, i'm looking forward to more!

I WOULD BE TOO IF I WERE YOU!

Also how comes Smashboards sometimes lets me use caps, sometimes not?

 

[Niko45]

lol, idk why people want to hear from me I'm the last person to talk to about fighting ICs. At some point I'll read through all of this and try to throw in something worth mentioning I guess.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Yeah, if/whenever you have time man.

And also, I'm kinda looking for more Marth insight, rather than vs IC's specifically. That's why I asked haha :-P

 

[Beat!]

I WOULD BE TOO IF I WERE YOU!

Also how comes Smashboards sometimes lets me use caps, sometimes not?

At least one letter has to be lower case.