My idea for a Bayonetta Fix

[Clock Tower Prison]

I like how this thread is just a circlejerk of bayonetta players that flame you if you disagree with them. there are a few respectful people here at least

You joined just to say that? Kind of hard to take people seriously when they all say the same thing and disregard evidence provided. Not just in this thread but others as well. Not to mention a few of the anti Bayo posters want her destroyed and don't even really know how to fix whatever problem there is. People are willing to help so much before its on the other person for being bad. Also some of us like me don't even play Bayo.

 

[DJblackviolence]

You joined just to say that?

Iv'e been on smashboards for a little while my last account was @Gecko Moria I just wanted to change my name to my actual in tournament tag.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

who won the set? lol
he won the set punishing a shielded divekick. so not all punishes were soft.
and he also punished batwithin.
i don't think you watched the set very closely.

My focus has been on missed Witch Twists and regular ABKs exclusively. I have made that clear from the start. I don't believe the moves are adequately punishable for their danger to opponents. I have provided you evidence of my claim in addition to a proposed change that touches 0 of Bayo's offensive firepower. I've requested the minimum from your side to convince me I'm wrong: Provide any video of a good Bayonetta getting reliably punished for missed Witch Twist or ABK not used for recovery.

Where is the video? Are you reading closely?

 

[blackghost]

My focus has been on missed Witch Twists and regular ABKs exclusively. I have made that clear from the start. I don't believe the moves are adequately punishable for their danger to opponents. I have provided you evidence of my claim in addition to a proposed change that touches 0 of Bayo's offensive firepower. I've requested the minimum from your side to convince me I'm wrong: Provide any video of a good Bayonetta getting reliably punished for missed Witch Twist or ABK not used for recovery.

Where is the video? Are you reading closely?

i really dont know what to do with you. i showed a high level tournament match where bayo lost because she was punished for a divekick. how is that not adequent video proof?
we know the move is punishable what you feel isn't supported by facts its opinion.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktRst59monI

 

[Ghidorah14]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktRst59monI

#MatchupKnowledge

 

[PeeDeeZee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktRst59monI

I count 5/12 missed Witch Twists and regular ABKs (not used for recovery) getting punished. That's still under a 50% success rate. This is not a passing grade and not reliable! I'm being generous here too: The last kill by DJ Jack (the only hard punish) was really a punish on Witch Time, but I counted it for the missed Witch Twist that happened in magnifying glass.

And I kid you not, after the the first match the commentator said "[DJ Jack] just got upB'd his entire first stock".

i really dont know what to do with you. i showed a high level tournament match where bayo lost because she was punished for a divekick. how is that not adequent video proof?
we know the move is punishable what you feel isn't supported by facts its opinion.

Divekick is neither Witch Twist nor regular ABK, which is what I've been talking about this whole time. Is there a misunderstanding?

If Witch Twist and regular ABK are easily punishable on miss, then YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND A SINGLE VIDEO WHERE THEY ARE PUNISHED RELIABLY. All the video "evidence" that I've found and that YOU'VE served to me has a below 50% success rate of punishing. Do these videos not count as facts?

 

[Ghidorah14]

I count 5/12 missed Witch Twists and regular ABKs (not used for recovery) getting punished. That's still under a 50% success rate. This is not a passing grade and not reliable! I'm being generous here too: The last kill by DJ Jack (the only hard punish) was a punish on Witch Time, but I counted it for the missed Witch Twist that happened in magnifying glass.

Are you so desperate to be right that you need to count the number of missed/punished moves?

Wow.

Leave it to the anti-bayo people to take literally anything that could even possibly be used against your argument and twist it to the point where it apparently becomes invalid.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

Are you so desperate to be right that you need to count the number of missed/punished moves?

Wow.

Leave it to the anti-bayo people to take literally anything that could even possibly be used against your argument and twist it to the point where it apparently becomes invalid.

Counting is the only way we can have any sort of debate with facts and not resort to hearsay. I've applied it fairly to every single video so far.

Do you have a better way of measuring how reliably two moves can be punished? I thought that the ratio of successful punishes was an indisputable obvious choice. In what way is math twisted and biased?

 

[Ghidorah14]

Counting is the only way we can have any sort of debate with facts and not resort to hearsay. I've applied it fairly to every single video so far.

Do you have a better way of measuring how reliably two moves can be punished? I thought that the ratio of successful punishes was an indisputable obvious choice. In what way is math twisted and biased?

Its the fact that you are going to that degree that gets me.

Like, who does that? Has anyone ever counted the number of punished moves/not punished moves for sheik? I can almost guarantee you her ratio would be much more skewed.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

Its the fact that you are going to that degree that gets me.

Like, who does that? Has anyone ever counted the number of punished moves/not punished moves for sheik? I can almost guarantee you her ratio would be much more skewed.

Most people automatically realize/accept how risky a move is. We all know without counting that ZSS's Boost Kick is highly punishable and Sheik's Fair is not so much. In this thread however, there seems to be some unnatural resistance to admitting that Witch Twist and regular ABK are not high risk moves. That's why I've had to resort to counting the success rate so it can be spelled out unequivocally.

Why don't I care about the punish-ability of Sheik's moveset? Because Sheik has mostly low reward moves. Her biggest issue (in most recent patch) is that she has trouble killing. It is ok that most of her moveset is low risk and safe. Bayonetta, on the other hand, can potentially combo to death out of her Witch Twist and regular ABK. Because of their high reward, those moves ought to be more punishable if they miss.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

In this thread however, there seems to be some unnatural resistance to admitting that Witch Twist and regular ABK are not high risk moves.

They aren't low risk moves either, with proper knowledge, a bad ABK or WT will ne punish. 5/12 isn't 50%, but it certainly isn't 10%, and the number is only gonna increase.

That's why I've had to resort to counting the success rate so it can be spelled out unequivocally.

Counting a success rate is an inaccurate way to measure risk. Many factors are involved, like how accurate the move is to begin with. Ganon's dair is pretty hard to punish, but it rarely connects.
Another factor is your opponent. ABK and WT are both very safe against Zelda, but against Little Mac, you could eat a flaming uSmash 70% of the time. Your opponent's MU knowledge is equally important.
Numbers aren't truly enough.

 

[Ghidorah14]

They aren't low risk moves either

Yes they are. They absolutely are low risk.

Like c'mon man, I wanna defend bayo too, but lets just call a spade a spade and stop kidding ourselves.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Yes they are. They absolutely are low risk.

Like c'mon man, I wanna defend bayo too, but lets just call a spade a spade and stop kidding ourselves.

It is significantly easier to punish those moves than Sheik's moves.
While I believe they should add more frames to her extra landing lag, those moves are far from being a low risk move.
A low risk move can be used without much worry, but Bayonetta often uses other safer moves or wait for an opening because ABK and WT has risk involved.

 

[Ghidorah14]

It is significantly easier to punish those moves than Sheik's moves.
While I believe they should add more frames to her extra landing lag, those moves are far from being a low risk move.
A low risk move can be used without much worry, but Bayonetta often uses other safer moves or wait for an opening because ABK and WT has risk involved.

I actually think you've become delusional now, because you're talking complete nonsense.

"Far from being low risk?" Are we playing the same game?

And sheik's moves are harder to punish, yes, but she gets much less reward off of hitting them.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I actually think you've become delusional now, because you're talking complete nonsense.

"Far from being low risk?" Are we playing the same game?

And sheik's moves are harder to punish, yes, but she gets much less reward off of hitting them.

Please respect my points.
Sheik gets less rewards yes, but that is because it is a low risk move. It doesn't make Bayonetta's attacks less risky.

Now, you should explain why you believe the move is low risk. Because if those moves are really low risk high reward, why is most Bayonetta using her normal moves more often than her specials?

 

[Ghidorah14]

Please respect my points.
Sheik gets less rewards yes, but that is because it is a low risk move. It doesn't make Bayonetta's attacks less risky.

Now, you should explain why you believe the move is low risk. Because if those moves are really low risk high reward, why is most Bayonetta using her normal moves more often than her specials?

What the actual hell are you talking about? You're not even making points anymore, you're just saying things that are flatout untrue.

Do the words "hit confirm" and "optimal" mean anything to you?

Why go for upB when it's horizontal hitbox sucks, when you can go for dtilt into upB? More damage, better chance of hitting, safer. One move being more optimal in a situation does not necessarily mean other moves are not also optimal or unsafe. Dtilt being safer than upB does not mean upB is now an unsafe move.

Do I seriously have to argue proper application of moves to you?

I have never, EVER been punished for whiffing upB or divekicking on shield. They're safe because the window for retaliation is microscopic. Doesnt mean it cant be done, but it's very difficult, and bayo getting punished for whiffing is much less than if it hit.

 

[Metallinatus]

It is significantly easier to punish those moves than Sheik's moves.

Not wanting to hop into the discussion again, but are you really saying she is not low risk.... by comparing her to the best frame data in the game?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Not wanting to hop into the discussion again, but are you really saying she is not low risk.... by comparing her to the best frame data in the game?

I want to remind everyone, I am not claiming those moves are high risk, I am claim those moves are NOT low risk.
I generally want to compared with other low risk moves, but I didn't provide enough because I am on mobile.

Why go for upB when it's horizontal hitbox sucks, when you can go for dtilt into upB? More damage, better chance of hitting, safer. One move being more optimal in a situation does not necessarily mean other moves are not also optimal or unsafe. Dtilt being safer than upB does not mean upB is now an unsafe move.

UpB also gives to extra landing lag. Normally, bair is safe on shield, but after an UpB, the landing lag bair possess makes it unsafe on shields.
It should be noted, due to ABK and WT being a lot more predictable, the odds of whiffing is higher, so the chances to punish happens more often than the chances to punish normal moves. This is the primary reason Pink Fresh and 9B has stopped relying on her specials so much.

I have never, EVER been punished for whiffing upB or divekicking on shield. They're safe because the window for retaliation is microscopic. Doesnt mean it cant be done, but it's very difficult, and bayo getting punished for whiffing is much less than if it hit.

I remember you had once said you don't go to tournament.
This claims is as silly as the counting the successful punish rate. Too many factors are involved to make a clear point.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I want to remind everyone, I am not claiming those moves are high risk, I am claim those moves are NOT low risk.

Yes. Yes they are.

This isnt even up for debate. You're just plain wrong.

UpB also gives to extra landing lag. Normally, bair is safe on shield, but after an UpB, the landing lag bair possess makes it unsafe on shields.

Why would someone upB and land on shield with bair? Who does that? That would just be stupid.

It should be noted, due to ABK and WT being a lot more predictable, the odds of whiffing is higher, so the chances to punish happens more often than the chances to punish normal moves. This is the primary reason Pink Fresh and 9B has stopped relying on her specials so much.

Ya know, aside from the whole "these moves combo into each other" thing.

Again, optimization. Why throw out specials, even safe ones, when you dont think they'll hit? No reason for it. They use the special moves less because they know the best times to use them.

I remember you had once said you don't go to tournament.
This claims is as silly as the counting the successful punish rate. Too many factors are involved to make a clear point.

You're the one being silly here.

I still play online against other people. Despite popular opinion, there are some good players on FG (this isnt even talking about anther's ladder, btw).

I'm not proposing raw data here. I just brought up my personal experience.




In hindsight, I probably should've just not replied at all and unwatched this thread. You have long since stopped making decent pro-bayo arguments and have become so blatantly biased that just talking with you is becoming draining.

I mean, saying that upB and divekick arent low risk? That is some serious denial you got going on.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Yes. Yes they are.

This isnt even up for debate. You're just plain wrong.

This kind of debate helps no one.

Why would someone upB and land on shield with bair? Who does that? That would just be stupid.

Pink Fresh, he whiffed an UpB and tried to push Mr. R away with a bair. But Mr. R shield it and punished. And landing with a bair is a pretty common thing with Bayonetta.
In any case, the extra lag is punishable.

Again, optimization. Why throw out specials, even safe ones, when you dont think they'll hit? No reason for it. They use the special moves less because they know the best times to use them.

Thus making the move safer.
Those moves aren't low risk, but proper usage makes it hard to punish.
Low risk moves can be used very often.

I still play online against other people. Despite popular opinion, there are some good players on FG (this isnt even talking about anther's ladder, btw).

Saying you play For Glory doesn't help you argument that much. I really believe your point that you never been punished for using those moves makes the move safe is silly.

I'm not proposing raw data here. I just brought up my personal experience.

I welcome sharing personal experience, but I wished you didn't use it as an argument.

In hindsight, I probably should've just not replied at all and unwatched this thread. You have long since stopped making decent pro-bayo arguments and have become so blatantly biased that just talking with you is becoming draining.

I am sorry. I have Asperger so I can be extremely insensitive to other people's feelings. Due to the nature of online forum, I can't shown my tone for you to see.
I mean no offense, and I sincerely apologize for draining you. I merely want to express my opinion.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

Rewinding a bit to the reply to my post...

They aren't low risk moves either, with proper knowledge, a bad ABK or WT will ne punish. 5/12 isn't 50%, but it certainly isn't 10%, and the number is only gonna increase.

I'm not arguing that the moves are simply low risk. I'm saying (over and over again) that their risk is not proportionate to their damage. A player that successfully avoids a potential death combo should get rewarded with something a bit more than just keeping his/her stock.

Counting a success rate is an inaccurate way to measure risk. Many factors are involved, like how accurate the move is to begin with. Ganon's dair is pretty hard to punish, but it rarely connects.
Another factor is your opponent. ABK and WT are both very safe against Zelda, but against Little Mac, you could eat a flaming uSmash 70% of the time. Your opponent's MU knowledge is equally important.
Numbers aren't truly enough.

We could go on for days discussing every nuance that affects the use of the move, and we'd likely get lost in intangibility. Theory just doesn't translate that well in practice. In my original post on this thread, I mentioned that the high landing lag from WT and ABK should make them very punishable in theory. However, as the videos/counting so far have shown, you can't exploit Bayonetta's landing lag reliably in tournament set.

Show me a match where the accuracy affects the expectation (are therefore risk) of Witch Twist or ABK in a measurable way.

Show me a match where Little Mac punishes the missed moves with anything above 50%. I did a quick search for "sol mac bayonetta" on YT and this was the top result. Arguably the best Little Mac in the world only got 22% successful punishes on missed Witch Twist and regular ABK.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I'm not arguing that the moves are simply low risk. I'm saying (over and over again) that their risk is not proportionate to their damage. A player that successfully avoids a potential death combo should get rewarded with something a bit more than just keeping his/her stock.

I do believe adding more landing lag will help, I think the idea of adding a helpless is stupid though.

We could go on for days discussing every nuance that affects the use of the move, and we'd likely get lost in intangibility. Theory just doesn't translate that well in practice. In my original post on this thread, I mentioned that the high landing lag from WT and ABK should make them very punishable in theory. However, as the videos/counting so far have shown, you can't exploit Bayonetta's landing lag reliably in tournament set.

Hence, increase the landing lag. Please don't use the counting as an argument, too many factors are involved.
It is also possible to reduce the reward Bayonetta get by getting out of her combos.

Show me a match where the accuracy affects the expectation (are therefore risk) of Witch Twist or ABK in a measurable way.

So essentially, you don't believe it til you see a video proving it?
You are taking MU analysis too extreme. While talk on paper isn't always accurate, dismissing them on the virtual of lacking a video to back it up is silly.
Let's say, there is a mid level player who spam ABK and WT. If the opponent has the MU experience, the accuracy might be 6/30. So there is 24 instance where you have the chance to punish.
If the accuracy was 0/30, there is even more chances to punish.
This is basic logic that pretty much every video proves. You know mid risk moves are carefully used in high level play and has a punish rate that might be even lower than low risk moves.

Show me a match where Little Mac punishes the missed moves with anything above 50%. I did a quick search for "sol mac bayonetta" on YT and this was the top result. Arguably the best Little Mac in the world only got 22% successful punishes on missed Witch Twist and regular ABK.

That was an example. If you are going to hug a bunch of high level video where moves are used extremely carefully, this debate is only going to run in circles.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

I do believe adding more landing lag will help, I think the idea of adding a helpless is stupid though.

I'm not opposed to more landing lag. I'm glad you also recognize that the moves should be a bit more punishable. Why is my special helpless state stupid? Does it not have the effect it intends?

Hence, increase the landing lag. Please don't use the counting as an argument, too many factors are involved.
It is also possible to reduce the reward Bayonetta get by getting out of her combos.

Counting encapsulates all the intangible factors that go into the success rate of punishing a move. If you say there are special circumstances of MU knowledge, character speed, etc. that allow reliable punishing, then those factors should manifest themselves as a reliable punish rate in AT LEAST one video.

So essentially, you don't believe it til you see a video proving it?
You are taking MU analysis too extreme. While talk on paper isn't always accurate, dismissing them on the virtual of lacking a video to back it up is silly.
Let's say, there is a mid level player who spam ABK and WT. If the opponent has the MU experience, the accuracy might be 6/30. So there is 24 instance where you have the chance to punish.
If the accuracy was 0/30, there is even more chances to punish.
This is basic logic that pretty much every video proves. You know mid risk moves are carefully used in high level play and has a punish rate that might be even lower than low risk moves.

You've just realized that accuracy is a terrible stat to measure. If a move is super hard to hit with, a player will only use it when they're sure they can get a hit. Then it seems like the move is safe because they don't miss!

I am only analyzing the success rate in punishing MISSED Witch Twist and regular ABK. In this scenario the Bayonetta player has made the error and should be in a disadvantaged state. Accuracy no longer plays a role at this point because she has already missed. Considering the huge advantage Bayonetta has in the midst of one of her combos, this disadvantaged state she gets put in SHOULD be comparable. It is not.

That was an example. If you are going to hug a bunch of high level video where moves are used extremely carefully, this debate is only going to run in circles.

Yes, your 70% example only exists in your theoretical MU world. In the real world, as you've pointed out, high level players think they need to be careful when punishing a move that could've taken their stock. That is ridiculous. I'm glad you agree the moves should be more punishable.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I'm not opposed to more landing lag. I'm glad you also recognize that the moves should be a bit more punishable. Why is my special helpless state stupid? Does it not have the effect it intends?

First, it creates unintended problem. For example, if Bayonetta uses two Witch Twist to recover before using ABK to recover, she will now suffer in helpless. It completely mess up her recovery.
Second, it only activates on a whiffed 2nd UpB. It doesn't solve how "low risk" her specials is.
Third, helpless is really doesn't make the moves more punishable. Since she can still go for a ledge or just land, not much difference.

Counting encapsulates all the intangible factors that go into the success rate of punishing a move. If you say there are special circumstances of MU knowledge, character speed, etc. that allow reliable punishing, then those factors should manifest themselves as a reliable punish rate in AT LEAST one video.

The problem with counting is the amount of data. When you count the punish of a video, you are counting ONLY ONE video. If you want an accurate punish rate, you have to count over hundreds if not thousands of video to really make counting a somewhat accurate point. You have to count for a levels of play, low, mid, and high. Making a point via counting takes tremendous amount of work, since there is a lot of factors involved.
For example, I remember Reddit once hosted a Fan ballot. The winner of the fan ballot is Shantae, but the amount of votes is I believe less than 1000, where as in the official ballot had almost 2 million votes. I couldn't claim Bayonetta would be the winner since she didn't win any major (albeit still small) fan ballot. But when we count for not just volunteers, we get Bayonetta is among the Top 5.
The results from a single video is not enough to be a clear proof. We can either bust our asses off and research every Bayonetta video (and not just tournaments videos but also casual videos too), or we can bring up points and talk on paper with our own MU experience.

You've just realized that accuracy is a terrible stat to measure. If a move is super hard to hit with, a player will only use it when they're sure they can get a hit. Then it seems like the move is safe because they don't miss!

Exactly! The only time a high level player will use the move is either it will hit or if they whiff it is hard to punish.
High level players are very smart, they make the lowest risk possible and look for the highest rewards. They avoid bad habits and mix things up very often.

I am only analyzing the success rate in punishing MISSED Witch Twist and regular ABK. In this scenario the Bayonetta player has made the error and should be in a disadvantaged state. Accuracy no longer plays a role at this point because she has already missed. Considering the huge advantage Bayonetta has in the midst of one of her combos, this disadvantaged state she gets put in SHOULD be comparable. It is not.

I want to question something, but missed, do you mean anytime used outside of recovery? Did you count using it to retreat or move past defensively? Next, when you count the punishes, do you count her getting punished in her specialy lag?
While accuracy has nothing to do with the punish rate, accuracy still is a major factor in how much risk a move have.

Yes, your 70% example only exists in your theoretical MU world. In the real world, as you've pointed out, high level players think they need to be careful when punishing a move that could've taken their stock. That is ridiculous. I'm glad you agree the moves should be more punishable.

I do want to point out Ryu can kill you at 70% off of a frame 3 move, taputilt > true sureyoucan. When it comes to how unbalanced a risk to reward ratio can be, Bayonetta isn't the only one.
Sometimes, it is really just something people have to adapt to. And once the number of Bayonetta beaters start to increase, witch hunters will start to decrease and we can go back to our happy meta. I did notice the punish rate for those moves is increasing, as week one Bayos weren't punished at all. Maybe soon people can consistently punish it.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

First, it creates unintended problem. For example, if Bayonetta uses two Witch Twist to recover before using ABK to recover, she will now suffer in helpless. It completely mess up her recovery.
Second, it only activates on a whiffed 2nd UpB. It doesn't solve how "low risk" her specials is.
Third, helpless is really doesn't make the moves more punishable. Since she can still go for a ledge or just land, not much difference.

You misunderstand the fix I introduced earlier in the thread. I proposed that Bayonetta missing Witch Twist or regular ABK would throw her into a special helpless state. In this state she loses her Witch Time, downward ABK, and aerials. The intention here was to not touch her recovery or combo potential at all.

Taking away Bayonetta's moves after she misses an aerial ABK/Witch Twist DOES increase how punishable the moves are. You cannot argue that point. She simply has less options. Currently Bayonetta's can try to knock away their opponents with an aerial, juke out opponents with dABK, or something else creative with their WHOLE move-set. No Bayonetta simply lands or ledge grabs after missing Witch Twist or ABK.

The problem with counting is the amount of data. When you count the punish of a video, you are counting ONLY ONE video. If you want an accurate punish rate, you have to count over hundreds if not thousands of video to really make counting a somewhat accurate point. You have to count for a levels of play, low, mid, and high. Making a point via counting takes tremendous amount of work, since there is a lot of factors involved.
For example, I remember Reddit once hosted a Fan ballot. The winner of the fan ballot is Shantae, but the amount of votes is I believe less than 1000, where as in the official ballot had almost 2 million votes. I couldn't claim Bayonetta would be the winner since she didn't win any major (albeit still small) fan ballot. But when we count for not just volunteers, we get Bayonetta is among the Top 5.
The results from a single video is not enough to be a clear proof. We can either bust our ***** off and research every Bayonetta video (and not just tournaments videos but also casual videos too), or we can bring up points and talk on paper with our own MU experience.

I've said it many times in this thread: It takes ONLY ONE video counterexample to disprove me. The work on your end is so simple. WHERE IS THE VIDEO?

Also, half the videos I've analyzed in this thread have been supplied by people on your side of the argument.

I want to question something, but missed, do you mean anytime used outside of recovery? Did you count using it to retreat or move past defensively? Next, when you count the punishes, do you count her getting punished in her specialy lag?
While accuracy has nothing to do with the punish rate, accuracy still is a major factor in how much risk a move have.

Go read through my posts in this thread. I've made it very clear that I'm only counting missed Witch Twists and regular ABKs not used for recovering. You can do a recount on any video yourself. We might disagree in certain instances whether a move was used offensively/defensively, but it's not gonna change the success rate much.

I do want to point out Ryu can kill you at 70% off of a frame 3 move, taputilt > true sureyoucan. When it comes to how unbalanced a risk to reward ratio can be, Bayonetta isn't the only one.
Sometimes, it is really just something people have to adapt to. And once the number of Bayonetta beaters start to increase, witch hunters will start to decrease and we can go back to our happy meta. I did notice the punish rate for those moves is increasing, as week one Bayos weren't punished at all. Maybe soon people can consistently punish it.

People are ok with Ryu's combos because he kills at 70% and not 12%. Shoryuken is also almost guaranteed to be punished if it misses.

If Bayonetta goes un-patched, I think she'll become the Ice Climbers of this game. She won't necessarily make the top 8 at every tournament, but she will still be followed by hate and salt everywhere she goes. That is not a happy meta.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58cL70UlVpQ

People are ok with Ryu's combos because he kills at 70% and not 12%. Shoryuken is also almost guaranteed to be punished if it misses.

tap utilt to sureyoucan is a true combo, I heard it can kill at 60% or less with rage.
Bayonetta's 12% kill combo can be DIed, not a lot of people die at 12% anymore.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58cL70UlVpQ

There were no missed offensive Witch Time or regular ABK in the set... Math refresher: 0/0 is not 100%. 0/0 isn't even a number. There's nothing to measure. I could've watched a Cloud ditto and learned just as much on how to punish Bayo's WT/ABK.

It's embarrassing. You posted a bare link with no measurement/counting accompanying it. I would normally assume that means the video speaks clearly for itself. It doesn't. It's not a counterexample. This is just Denti beating up on some lesser-known Bayo player (no offense intended towards Jayson).

Find a video of missed offensive Witch Twist and regular ABK getting punished at over 50% rate

 

[SoccerStar9001]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObY5TzGXQo8
4/8

 

[MrViral]

Hey everyone, longtime lurker here.

I've been thinking about Bayonetta tweaks instead of prepping for finals, and wanted to float my ideas to someone so I could get back to studying. I tried to focus on increasing risk for missed hits, not decreasing reward for landed hits.

Side B grounded- Remove the hitbox that extends behind Bayo on hit 2 to let players who dodge or shield through the slide chase her down and punish the move more reliably.

Side B aerial- Increase endlag on whiff to make it more punishable when used as recovery.

Divekick - Make Bayo stick in place instead of sliding forward upon landing to make punishes more reliable after successful dodges.
Decrease shield damage as much as possible to make blocking the hit feel more like a "zero sum" interaction for the defending player and less like the Bayo player is getting shield damage for free.

Up B - Making the final hitbox horizontally narrower will slightly increase SDI effectiveness, but greatly reduce the move's ability to brush off a defender's 2-frame attempts when it's used to recover under the ledge.

Jab combo - Lengthen endlag on jabs 1 and 2 unless cancelled into further jabs in the combo. This might make make the jab 1-jab 2 mixup opener easier to punish if the defender blocks and Bayo tries to extend their shield pressure.
Increase SDI multiplier on rapid jab OR reduce damage on jabs 1, 2 and 3 to bring total combo damage output back into line with other rapid jabs.

Down tilt - Make low % KB angle more horizontal to make combos at zero-low percent a little trickier to pull off.

Bair - Increase landing lag to make Nair, Fair and even cancelled Uair into more attractive approach and spacing options.

Bullet arts - Remove "muzzle flash" hitboxes that have knockback on held moves to allow rushing in to be a more effective option against Bayonettas holding grounded buttons. Keep the sustained hitboxes on bullet art Nair and Uair, because the knockback on their held hitboxes make sense.
Make the held attack bullets into actual projectiles instead of extensions of the physical hitboxes. This would make stuff like reflectors, witch time and the hylian shield work like they logically should against these moves.

Nair and Uair - Slightly decrease KB on held aerial hitboxes - might make stopping linear recoveries a little less simple.

Bat Within - Increase duration of bat within's effect once activated to make the attacker safer from retaliation, and increase Bayonetta's freedom of movement during the effect. Instead of getting minor frame advantage, it will be more effective for retreating from a clash and resetting to neutral.

Witch Time - Slightly reduce the effect duration penalty for overuse, but add a counter window penalty, like the mechanic used for Shulk's custom 3 counter. This would mean that successful witch times would last longer, but over-reliance on the move would make approaching and attempting to attack less risky for the defender. This would hopefully incentivize more aggressive play against Bayo players if they fish for the move carelessly.

Thoughts?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I've been thinking about Bayonetta tweaks instead of prepping for finals, and wanted to float my ideas to someone so I could get back to studying. I tried to focus on increasing risk for missed hits, not decreasing reward for landed hits.

I actually think the "low risk, high reward" mindset is flawed. This mindset was created by ZeRo, back when he believed DI won't save you from combos and her 0 to death is inescapable.

Side B grounded- Remove the hitbox that extends behind Bayo on hit 2 to let players who dodge or shield through the slide chase her down and punish the move more reliably.

Doesn't sound too bad.

Side B aerial- Increase endlag on whiff to make it more punishable when used as recovery.

It has 12 frames of endlag, that's double of an airdodge. People just need to get better at gimping her.
Plus, is there a move that has more endlag on whiff?

Divekick - Make Bayo stick in place instead of sliding forward upon landing to make punishes more reliable after successful dodges.
Decrease shield damage as much as possible to make blocking the hit feel more like a "zero sum" interaction for the defending player and less like the Bayo player is getting shield damage for free.

The first part is more of a personal preference, it isn't like she slide far anyways.
The second part is weird, shield damage ties directly to normal damage. Unless the move does 0%, I doubt this is possible.

Up B - Making the final hitbox horizontally narrower will slightly increase SDI effectiveness, but greatly reduce the move's ability to brush off a defender's 2-frame attempts when it's used to recover under the ledge.

This talk about increasing SDI effectiveness won't do much if people don't bother to SDI in the first place. SDI is already pretty effective, but it is pretty hard.

Jab combo - Lengthen endlag on jabs 1 and 2 unless cancelled into further jabs in the combo. This might make make the jab 1-jab 2 mixup opener easier to punish if the defender blocks and Bayo tries to extend their shield pressure.
Increase SDI multiplier on rapid jab OR reduce damage on jabs 1, 2 and 3 to bring total combo damage output back into line with other rapid jabs.

Jab 1/2 has mixup? Most of Bayonetta's move has below average startup so I don't think it wasn't punishable in the first place.
And again with the SDI argument.
The total damage of Bayonetta's jab 1-2-3 is 5.7%, plus Bayonetta's jab is the third slowest in the game and is pretty rare. It isn't like it does 30%.

Down tilt - Make low % KB angle more horizontal to make combos at zero-low percent a little trickier to pull off.

What you suggest barely changes low % combos while heavily hurts her mid to high % combos.
You can't alter the angle of an attack based on %.

Bair - Increase landing lag to make Nair, Fair and even cancelled Uair into more attractive approach and spacing options.

Bair has more landing lag than Nair, and Bayonetta's special weakness is after using aerial specials, she gets more landing lag.
She already suffers from a bad approach game.

Bullet arts - Remove "muzzle flash" hitboxes that have knockback on held moves to allow rushing in to be a more effective option against Bayonettas holding grounded buttons. Keep the sustained hitboxes on bullet art Nair and Uair, because the knockback on their held hitboxes make sense.
Make the held attack bullets into actual projectiles instead of extensions of the physical hitboxes. This would make stuff like reflectors, witch time and the hylian shield work like they logically should against these moves.

I wouldn't oppose removing muzzle flash hitboxes, but I rarely uses BA (outside of Nair and Uair) anyways.
I think that isn't necessary. While it is weird BA is a physical hitboxes, it makes sense in certain ways and it will change very little anyways.

Nair and Uair - Slightly decrease KB on held aerial hitboxes - might make stopping linear recoveries a little less simple.

I am not opposing the decrease KB on those, but it doesn't change the fact that it is just straight up simple to stop a linear recovery.

Bat Within - Increase duration of bat within's effect once activated to make the attacker safer from retaliation, and increase Bayonetta's freedom of movement during the effect. Instead of getting minor frame advantage, it will be more effective for retreating from a clash and resetting to neutral.

Bat Within has a pretty high duration already, it could even end up frame trapping herself.
You can't control Bat Within's movement anyways (even air dodge's can't be controlled, it move straight to your direction upon triggering).

Witch Time - Slightly reduce the effect duration penalty for overuse, but add a counter window penalty, like the mechanic used for Shulk's custom 3 counter. This would mean that successful witch times would last longer, but over-reliance on the move would make approaching and attempting to attack less risky for the defender. This would hopefully incentivize more aggressive play against Bayo players if they fish for the move carelessly.

I think Witch Time is already good, it has the shortest counter window of all (non custom?) counters already.
So how can you really create a counter window penalty without making the move effectively useless?
Bayonetta. 5-16 (12F) BW: 17-21 (5F) Total 5-21 (17F)
Shulk. 7-41 (35F)

There you go, my opinion. Don't take it the wrong way, not trying to offend anyone. And sorry if I do.

 

[RandomGuySheep]

We don't need to fix Bayonetta at all. It makes identifying the frauds easier.

 

[MKchouy]

Haven't read through the entire thread, just a random opinion.

I have no problem with her death combos (I'm an MK main lol), I just think her hitbox on witch twist should be toned down a bit. She's nearly impossible to edgeguard because her up B and side B win nearly everything, it outranges almost all of my disjoints when i play as pit. Plus you can't even ledge trump her because of the hitbox. Also I wish witch time was proportionate to the countered move i.e. countered smash attack would have the full 3 seconds or whatever, but a countering a jab would be very minimal time.

Other than that, I think her combos are really cool and I like the idea of hard punishing characters that can kill you at various percents.

 

[MrViral]

SoccerStar9001 No offense taken! I just wanted to come at this convo from an angle I hadn't seen yet.

 

[blackghost]

At first I was ofeeling the mindset she needed to be slightly toned down but as the months gave progressed I think she's mostly fine as is. She is winning nothing outside of one Japanese player.
Just as ness is seen as the gate keeper for top tier characters bayonetta is the gatekeeper for upper tier players vs average players. If you can't fight bayo well you have a tournament ceiling if you can you can win. Judging by her results (and that should be all that matters) she is losing to players that are training against he and not begging for a nerf online.