My idea for a Bayonetta Fix

[SoccerStar9001]

IF they want to balance her out they can simply remove the upb jump cancel.

that's it. nothing else really need to change

Its part of her tools though, even the video where the show off Bayonetta has DJCWT

 

[Captain Farukon]

Bayonetta Up B needs to be changed to only one jump (just like ZSS), then nerfed her completely give her more start up lag and end lag in every move and there you go

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Bayonetta Up B needs to be changed to only one jump (just like ZSS), then nerfed her completely give her more start up lag and end lag in every move and there you go

Again because you can't seem to read any logical post of all the other threads out there on this. That would break the character. She is supposed to be able to combo from all her specials.

 

[pikazz]

okay, been thinking alot.
if I was Sakurai and I was forced into "nerfing" bayonetta without actually killing her and her playstyle in the progress, I would do this:

First UpB:
Looping Hitbox: SDi modifier from 1 to 1.2/1.3: This would make it easier to escape with SDi to get out the combo.
Final Hitbox: SDi Modifier from 1 to 1.3: makes the DI much harder to predict together that you need to predict where the opponent will DI to as it will be sliglty bigger area to DI against
Total Damage reduced with 2%

Second UpB:
-Same like the first UpB but this too-
Final Hitbox: Base Knockback slightly increased by small unit. this is an double-edge sword. it will make the opponent fly just slightly away from Bayonetta instead for being infront of her face meaning you can have a bigger chance of escaping. but since its higher base knockback, it will give the opponent higher hitstun by 1-2 frames
Total Damage reduced with 2%

you can increase the Knockback Growth instead, but that is also an double-edge sword that makes Second UpB kill earlier with increased hitstun at earlier %

Downward After Burner Kick (both):
Bounce for Bayonetta and Opponent decreased by 90-80%, meaning they will not fly up as high as before on hit and shield:

Landing After Burner Kick (on Ground)
FAF increased with 3-5 Frames, encourage to Spotdodge or Spacing when Bayonetta approaches with this move


Overrall Weakness:
Increases all "if all SideBs and UpBs is used in air" by 6 frames on landing.
its not much but it discourage Bayonetta to go Willy and Nilly with her Special recklessly when her landing lag will be more punishable, especially when the SDI modifier is slightly increased on her combos

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Second UpB:
-Same like the first UpB but this too-
Final Hitbox: Base Knockback slightly increased by small unit. this is an double-edge sword. it will make the opponent fly just slightly away from Bayonetta instead for being infront of her face meaning you can have a bigger chance of escaping. but since its higher base knockback, it will give the opponent higher hitstun by 1-2 frames

Bayonetta doesn't always end her combo with a UpB 2 > Uair. And UpB 2 > Uair is not too hard to escape from since Uair comes from behind and hits the front at around frame 18.
And UpB > ABK > UpB > ABK > Uair is still there.

Others are agreeable.

 

[pikazz]

Bayonetta doesn't always end her combo with a UpB 2 > Uair. And UpB 2 > Uair is not too hard to escape from since Uair comes from behind and hits the front at around frame 18.
And UpB > ABK > UpB > ABK > Uair is still there.

Others are agreeable.

I believe you missed my point.

the idea is that with the SDI on both of the UpBs, especially on the Last hit will make the opponent a wider angle to DI.
meaning that if they dont DI, UpB to ABK will hit. DI Up or Down will make ABK most likely miss.

basically, it makes it more work to actually get the combos working instead of having an 95% hitrate everyone claims it to be, now it should be at least 50/50 on read

 

[Bullys]

the idea is that with the SDI on both of the UpBs, especially on the Last hit will make the opponent a wider angle to DI.
meaning that if they dont DI, UpB to ABK will hit. DI Up or Down will make ABK most likely miss.

basically, it makes it more work to actually get the combos working instead of having an 95% hitrate everyone claims it to be, now it should be at least 50/50 on read

I think, should there be a patch (and given the constant background noise about bayo, I think it will happen), this is the likely route they go. She won't be nerfed into the ground (which some people just want out of pure spite), they'll take as good of a scalpel to her.

 

[blackghost]

okay, been thinking alot.
if I was Sakurai and I was forced into "nerfing" bayonetta without actually killing her and her playstyle in the progress, I would do this:

First UpB:
Looping Hitbox: SDi modifier from 1 to 1.2/1.3: This would make it easier to escape with SDi to get out the combo.
Final Hitbox: SDi Modifier from 1 to 1.3: makes the DI much harder to predict together that you need to predict where the opponent will DI to as it will be sliglty bigger area to DI against
Total Damage reduced with 2%

Second UpB:
-Same like the first UpB but this too-
Final Hitbox: Base Knockback slightly increased by small unit. this is an double-edge sword. it will make the opponent fly just slightly away from Bayonetta instead for being infront of her face meaning you can have a bigger chance of escaping. but since its higher base knockback, it will give the opponent higher hitstun by 1-2 frames
Total Damage reduced with 2%

you can increase the Knockback Growth instead, but that is also an double-edge sword that makes Second UpB kill earlier with increased hitstun at earlier %

Downward After Burner Kick (both):
Bounce for Bayonetta and Opponent decreased by 90-80%, meaning they will not fly up as high as before on hit and shield:

Landing After Burner Kick (on Ground)
FAF increased with 3-5 Frames, encourage to Spotdodge or Spacing when Bayonetta approaches with this move


Overrall Weakness:
Increases all "if all SideBs and UpBs is used in air" by 6 frames on landing.
its not much but it discourage Bayonetta to go Willy and Nilly with her Special recklessly when her landing lag will be more punishable, especially when the SDI modifier is slightly increased on her combos

this is the first set of nerfs i've seen that are resonable. props to you. but i'm not sure aboout increasing the landing lag if you also reduce the hop off shield distance.
also the shorter hop off shields will open her up to new combo abilities. but combos that will obviously go left right as opposed to straight up.

 

[pikazz]

this is the first set of nerfs i've seen that are resonable. props to you. but i'm not sure aboout increasing the landing lag if you also reduce the hop off shield distance.
also the shorter hop off shields will open her up to new combo abilities. but combos that will obviously go left right as opposed to straight up.

the bounce still bounces you up just like before, but just slightly lowered. the purpose is to lower the profit to get that "kill upon the top" unless you actually caught them in the air with it.

since the gain of the move is still pretty huge as it still is safe on shield and on hit, it would have larger weakness on miss

 

[PeeDeeZee]

I like the amount of offensive firepower Bayonetta has. It's clear Nintendo intended her to be a glass cannon by giving her so much landing lag after her aerial specials. Landing lag is not working though. If Bayonetta whiffs one of her specials in the air, she still has her entire move-set to help her land! Most other characters are thrown into helplessness where landing lag actually has a major effect on their safety. Bayonetta can instead throw out more attacks, use Witch Time, or juke out her opponent with dABK. She is currently not a glass cannon.

My solution: If Bayonetta misses Witch Twist or ABK, put her into a special helpless state in which she loses all of her regular aerial attacks, her Witch Time, and downward ABK. Thoughts?

Note the above nerf does not hurt Bayo's ability to land combos at all. It also does not hurt Bayo's amazing recovery because she can still Witch Twist and regular ABK in the special helpless state.

 

[Amiracle]

I think bayonetta is a fine character and she does have some pretty big weaknesses. Personally I find her kind of slow, but her Specials push her over the top. I think like someone suggested reducing the vertical knockback on her specials would take away a lot of the complaints. Another fix I think would be acceptable is adding more lag after her second twist. Or like someone suggested adding a freefall after she's used her second twist.

Aside from that!, reducing her weight even more like what's been done to sheik or even reducing the damage of some of her moves could sufice. She can rack up damage so easily and it can be a bit of a problem.

DABK I think should be nerfed in some way. Reducing the vertical height that it flings bayonetta and the opponent would be best

TLDR: I want bayonetta to retain all her combos and everything, I just want her to be less cheap

 

[blackghost]

I like the amount of offensive firepower Bayonetta has. It's clear Nintendo intended her to be a glass cannon by giving her so much landing lag after her aerial specials. Landing lag is not working though. If Bayonetta whiffs one of her specials in the air, she still has her entire move-set to help her land! Most other characters are thrown into helplessness where landing lag actually has a major effect on their safety. Bayonetta can instead throw out more attacks, use Witch Time, or juke out her opponent with dABK. She is currently not a glass cannon.

My solution: If Bayonetta misses Witch Twist or ABK, put her into a special helpless state in which she loses all of her regular aerial attacks, her Witch Time, and downward ABK. Thoughts?

Note the above nerf does not hurt Bayo's ability to land combos at all. It also does not hurt Bayo's amazing recovery because she can still Witch Twist and regular ABK in the special helpless state.

i highly doubt they will program in a hleppless state when that clearly wasn't intended in her design. she doesnt go into helpless thats a nod to her her games and they carried it over like how ryu can chain his normals.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

I like the amount of offensive firepower Bayonetta has. It's clear Nintendo intended her to be a glass cannon by giving her so much landing lag after her aerial specials. Landing lag is not working though. If Bayonetta whiffs one of her specials in the air, she still has her entire move-set to help her land! Most other characters are thrown into helplessness where landing lag actually has a major effect on their safety. Bayonetta can instead throw out more attacks, use Witch Time, or juke out her opponent with dABK. She is currently not a glass cannon.

My solution: If Bayonetta misses Witch Twist or ABK, put her into a special helpless state in which she loses all of her regular aerial attacks, her Witch Time, and downward ABK. Thoughts?

Note the above nerf does not hurt Bayo's ability to land combos at all. It also does not hurt Bayo's amazing recovery because she can still Witch Twist and regular ABK in the special helpless state.

You made an account to voice your position on a horrible idea that has been said many times by anti Bayo and been shut down over and over again as being dumb and unreasonable. Kudos!

 

[PeeDeeZee]

i highly doubt they will program in a hleppless state when that clearly wasn't intended in her design. she doesnt go into helpless thats a nod to her her games and they carried it over like how ryu can chain his normals.

Yes, Bayonetta was designed not go into a total helpless state so that she can complete combos and do off-stage recovery.

What I proposed is a special helpless state that activates only when she misses Witch Twist or ABK. In this state she only can use Witch Twist or ABK (if she has one of those moves left). No "nod to her game" requires her to have all her moves at all times.

 

[ThatLittleFatGirl]

Just play Puff

 

[blackghost]

Yes, Bayonetta was designed not go into a total helpless state so that she can complete combos and do off-stage recovery.

What I proposed is a special helpless state that activates only when she misses Witch Twist or ABK. In this state she only can use Witch Twist or ABK (if she has one of those moves left). No "nod to her game" requires her to have all her moves at all times.

This doesn't fit the issue most people have with her and just would be a lot of work and Fix nothing. She's not going to be given a helpless state that's a lot of work for something they didn't want to give her.
And she already doent have all her moves available at any given time she has limits on specials and Thier number of uses.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

This doesn't fit the issue most people have with her and just would be a lot of work and Fix nothing. She's not going to be given a helpless state that's a lot of work for something they didn't want to give her.
And she already doent have all her moves available at any given time she has limits on specials and Thier number of uses.

1. A lot of people actually do have issues with her 0-death being tough to punish. Watch the film. How often does a missed Bayo 0-death get punished with anything appropriate for such a high reward move.
   
2. Explain why the nerf would fix nothing. It seems pretty obvious to me that removing landing options would make it tougher for Bayo to land. Then she might hesitate before throwing out a 0-death if she can't afford the risk. Am I missing something here?
3. Why is this change a lot of work? The nerf doesn't require new animations, new timings, or any drastic re-design of Bayonetta. As you mentioned, the special helpless state is already partially implemented! If Bayo misses an ABK, take away her regular aerials, dABK, and Witch Time in addition to the ABK. Have some confidence in the developers at Nintendo. This is doable.
4. You mention "they don't want to give [a helpless state to] her". I don't believe this true for reasons listed in my original post. Bayo was given large landing lag seemingly with the intention of making her landings highly punishable. Landing lag isn't as effective though if you can still throw out attacks or dABK away. Putting in the special helpless state enables the landing lag to have the effect it was intended for.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

P PeeDeeZee just stop. There have been much better suggestions than yours and regardless they will ultimately do what they want but hopefully not take into consideration what you and all the other complainers want as a "fix".

 

[PeeDeeZee]

P PeeDeeZee just stop. There have been much better suggestions than yours and regardless they will ultimately do what they want but hopefully not take into consideration what you and all the other complainers want as a "fix".

The whole purpose of this thread is to discuss the merits and faults of proposed changes to Bayonetta. Stop trying to stomp out the conversation just because you don't think it's necessary.

I think it's very interesting to speculate on how Nintendo will change the character. They have to balance their initial design goals with the complaints of players spanning from For Glory to national tournaments. It doesn't matter that they don't read this thread. There's an interesting problem that deserves a conversation. Maybe we'll even be able to come up with close prediction. Be constructive.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Be constructive.

Funny how nobody against Bayo is.

 

[blackghost]

1. A lot of people actually do have issues with her 0-death being tough to punish. Watch the film. How often does a missed Bayo 0-death get punished with anything appropriate for such a high reward move.
   
2. Explain why the nerf would fix nothing. It seems pretty obvious to me that removing landing options would make it tougher for Bayo to land. Then she might hesitate before throwing out a 0-death if she can't afford the risk. Am I missing something here?
3. Why is this change a lot of work? The nerf doesn't require new animations, new timings, or any drastic re-design of Bayonetta. As you mentioned, the special helpless state is already partially implemented! If Bayo misses an ABK, take away her regular aerials, dABK, and Witch Time in addition to the ABK. Have some confidence in the developers at Nintendo. This is doable.
4. You mention "they don't want to give [a helpless state to] her". I don't believe this true for reasons listed in my original post. Bayo was given large landing lag seemingly with the intention of making her landings highly punishable. Landing lag isn't as effective though if you can still throw out attacks or dABK away. Putting in the special helpless state enables the landing lag to have the effect it was intended for.

no one wants to stomp out a ocnversation people don't want to discuss an idea when it isn't clear what you are trying to do or how the chane will be effective.
1. bayonetta's actualy 0 to death combos don't happen that much. but when someone falls out i see plenty of people punish her for it she has more than 40 frames of landging lag.
2. she already has no lading options. the only optoin is for her to witchtime right above the gorund. which is an easy punish you dont punish her while she falls you punish when she lands. hence the landing lag.
3. it isn't something that needs to be done. what do you want, a giant neon label saying "punish her now"? its a waste of time and isn't precedented in the balancing team. and it would require a new animation to distigush her now "special fall" from her normal fall. (see every other character) its a bunch of pointless work.
4. you don't seem to understand tyhe charatcer. bayoetta cannot always use ABK to get away. and dABK isnt really an effective escape against players that know the matchup. and on correct counterpicked stages against bayo (dreamland and batlefield and lyatt especially) she struggles to land at all. and no bayonetta wants to land with an air attack they all aren't safe.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

Funny how nobody against Bayo is.

I offered up a potential way to make Bayonetta more punishable without hurting her combo ability. In contrast, your response was "Just stop." Please be fair.

no one wants to stomp out a ocnversation people don't want to discuss an idea when it isn't clear what you are trying to do or how the chane will be effective.
1. bayonetta's actualy 0 to death combos don't happen that much. but when someone falls out i see plenty of people punish her for it she has more than 40 frames of landging lag.
2. she already has no lading options. the only optoin is for her to witchtime right above the gorund. which is an easy punish you dont punish her while she falls you punish when she lands. hence the landing lag.
3. it isn't something that needs to be done. what do you want, a giant neon label saying "punish her now"? its a waste of time and isn't precedented in the balancing team. and it would require a new animation to distigush her now "special fall" from her normal fall. (see every other character) its a bunch of pointless work.
4. you don't seem to understand tyhe charatcer. bayoetta cannot always use ABK to get away. and dABK isnt really an effective escape against players that know the matchup. and on correct counterpicked stages against bayo (dreamland and batlefield and lyatt especially) she struggles to land at all. and no bayonetta wants to land with an air attack they all aren't safe.

1. Watch this video. Count the number of times Bayonetta gets punished for a missed Witch Twist or ABK. In the first 5 minutes, the best (and only) punish I see is a grab. Please respond if you have a video of the landing lag being reliably abused.
2. Her landing options are her aerials, witch time, and dABK (in addition to air dodge, fast fall, etc). Watch Bayonetta's play, you'll see the options.
3. When Bayonetta loses her ABK after missing the first one, there is no special animation. No special animation is needed here.
4. I'll split up your 4th point:
   1. dABK is a great way to juke out opponents standing beneath anticipating a regular fall/aerial attack. Most characters are not fast enough to chase down the dABK, especially if they already committed to a punish for fall/aerial. (Thus the few effective punishes can't be that hard hitting either.)
   2. The first match of the video I linked is on battlefield. Bayonetta's may vary, but a lot of them like the stage for its high platforms that make combos more likely to kill.
   3. I see Nair get thrown out pretty often after a whiffed ABK or Witch Twist.

Essentially, here's the best way to shut me down: Supply a video of a good Bayonneta getting reliably punished for missing Witch Twist or regular ABK.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

blackghost just give up with this it is pointless.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I offered up a potential way to make Bayonetta more punishable without hurting her combo ability. In contrast, your response was "Just stop." Please be fair.

1. Watch this video. Count the number of times Bayonetta gets punished for a missed Witch Twist or ABK. In the first 5 minutes, the best (and only) punish I see is a grab. Please respond if you have a video of the landing lag being reliably abused.
2. Her landing options are her aerials, witch time, and dABK (in addition to air dodge, fast fall, etc). Watch Bayonetta's play, you'll see the options.
3. When Bayonetta loses her ABK after missing the first one, there is no special animation. No special animation is needed here.
4. I'll split up your 4th point:
   1. dABK is a great way to juke out opponents standing beneath anticipating a regular fall/aerial attack. Most characters are not fast enough to chase down the dABK, especially if they already committed to a punish for fall/aerial. (Thus the few effective punishes can't be that hard hitting either.)
   2. The first match of the video I linked is on battlefield. Bayonetta's may vary, but a lot of them like the stage for its high platforms that make combos more likely to kill.
   3. I see Nair get thrown out pretty often after a whiffed ABK or Witch Twist.

Essentially, here's the best way to shut me down: Supply a video of a good Bayonneta getting reliably punished for missing Witch Twist or regular ABK.

1. Thank you for cherry picking, more and more people have started to punish her landing lag better recently.
2. All of these options are more than punishable, especially with extra landing lag.
4/1. Dive kicking onto the ground result in lag, it is unavoidable and predictable if overused. Zelda and Ganon might struggle to punish, but a large amount of the cast can sneak in a grab or an attack and gain more stage control. If they committed to a regular landing punish and Bayonetta ABK away, they messed up, not Bayonetta.
4/2. Bayonetta's combo is Di-able as Beefy Smash Doods pointed out. Stages like Battlefield makes Bayonetta struggles because the platform gets in the way of Bayonetta's combo.
4/3. Nair has a lot more landing lag if she throws it out after a whiffed special, so Nair is unsafe on shield after a special.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

1. Thank you for cherry picking, more and more people have started to punish her landing lag better recently.
2. All of these options are more than punishable, especially with extra landing lag.
4/1. Dive kicking onto the ground result in lag, it is unavoidable and predictable if overused. Zelda and Ganon might struggle to punish, but a large amount of the cast can sneak in a grab or an attack and gain more stage control. If they committed to a regular landing punish and Bayonetta ABK away, they messed up, not Bayonetta.
4/2. Bayonetta's combo is Di-able as Beefy Smash Doods pointed out. Stages like Battlefield makes Bayonetta struggles because the platform gets in the way of Bayonetta's combo.
4/3. Nair has a lot more landing lag if she throws it out after a whiffed special, so Nair is unsafe on shield after a special.

I understand how everything looks on paper, but theory isn't always the same as practice. Can you "cherry-pick" a video of a good Bayonetta reliably getting punished for whiffed ABK or Witch Twist? I can't show you every video on Youtube to convince you of my point, but you should be able to find one counterexample video to persuade me.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I understand how everything looks on paper, but theory isn't always the same as practice. Can you "cherry-pick" a video of a good Bayonetta reliably getting punished for whiffed ABK or Witch Twist? I can't show you every video on Youtube to convince you of my point, but you should be able to find one counterexample video to persuade me.

https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/co..._leo_meta_knight_vs_cs_wonf/?ref=search_posts

 

[PeeDeeZee]

https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/co..._leo_meta_knight_vs_cs_wonf/?ref=search_posts

Did you just pick a random set where Bayonetta loses?

I counted the number of times Bayonetta missed a regular ABK or Witch Twist (and was not recovering). I counted 21 misses. There were only 5 punishes:

1. Single Uair (This actually occurred after Bayo jumped off of MK's head. It really shouldn't be counted, but she didn't get safely to the stage.)
2. Dthrow -> Up-smash (at low percent)
3. Dash attack -> Up-smash (at low percent)
4. Forward tilt
5. Single Uair

I asked for reliable punishing. This is worse than %25 and only 2 of the successes could even be considered hard punishes. If ZSS's whiffed Boost Kicks could only be punished a quarter of the time, would you consider that reliable/easy-to-punish?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Did you just pick a random set where Bayonetta loses?

I counted the number of times Bayonetta missed a regular ABK or Witch Twist (and was not recovering). I counted 21 misses. There were only 5 punishes:

1. Single Uair (This actually occurred after Bayo jumped off of MK's head. It really shouldn't be counted, but she didn't get safely to the stage.)
2. Dthrow -> Up-smash (at low percent)
3. Dash attack -> Up-smash (at low percent)
4. Forward tilt
5. Single Uair

I asked for reliable punishing. This is worse than %25 and only 2 of the successes could even be considered hard punishes. If ZSS's whiffed Boost Kicks could only be punished a quarter of the time, would you consider that reliable/easy-to-punish?

It would be impossible for me to provide a match where Bayonetta was punished 50% of the time, Bayonetta uses too much specials to make it possible.
ZSS doesn't uses her Boot Kick high up a lot, it makes sense the % is high.
After all, 2 out of 3 is 67%. And it isn't like the average Boot Kick punish is a hard punish either.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

It would be impossible for me to provide a match where Bayonetta was punished 50% of the time, Bayonetta uses too much specials to make it possible.
ZSS doesn't uses her Boot Kick high up a lot, it makes sense the % is high.
After all, 2 out of 3 is 67%. And it isn't like the average Boot Kick punish is a hard punish either.

1. If you can't find a match in which missed ABK/Witch Twist get punished at a reliable rate, doesn't that mean they're tough to punish?? It doesn't matter if she uses them too much. If she misses them a lot and gets punished little, then they must be high reward, low risk.
2. ZSS uses her Boost Kick high up after Uair strings quite often.
3. Where are 2 and 3 coming from? Yes, missed Boost Kicks are usually punished very hard, unlike missed ABK/Witch Twist.

 

[blackghost]

1. If you can't find a match in which missed ABK/Witch Twist get punished at a reliable rate, doesn't that mean they're tough to punish?? It doesn't matter if she uses them too much. If she misses them a lot and gets punished little, then they must be high reward, low risk.
2. ZSS uses her Boost Kick high up after Uair strings quite often.
3. Where are 2 and 3 coming from? Yes, missed Boost Kicks are usually punished very hard, unlike missed ABK/Witch Twist.

Show me ANY match where a move is punished more than 50 percent of the time. Outside of ganon and Falcon punches a lot of moves aren't punished well yet.
Shoryuken isn't punished, bouncing fish isn't properly sidestepped or air dodgedry. Monkey flip isn't punished on whiff either. You are the one cherry picking not us. Lately the bayonetta is "free wins" hype train has calmed down a little. Chat is still salty but players are seeing her flaws. She gets punished for over extending. You want a match to watch go watch pink fresh vs Mars at poind. It's in YouTube sokewhere. Mars played perfectly bayo.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

Show me ANY match where a move is punished more than 50 percent of the time. Outside of ganon and Falcon punches a lot of moves aren't punished well yet.
Shoryuken isn't punished, bouncing fish isn't properly sidestepped or air dodgedry. Monkey flip isn't punished on whiff either. You are the one cherry picking not us. Lately the bayonetta is "free wins" hype train has calmed down a little. Chat is still salty but players are seeing her flaws. She gets punished for over extending. You want a match to watch go watch pink fresh vs Mars at poind. It's in YouTube sokewhere. Mars played perfectly bayo.

1. Whiffed Shoryukens get punished. See this video between Trela and Ryo. Missed Shoryuken is punished 2/3 times. Notice how Trela only throws it out when he thinks he can convert into it. This is because it's a high risk move!
2. Monkey flip isn't a high reward move. Why bring it up? Few Diddy's even use it anymore, so if it goes unpunished it's probably due to surprise.
3. I can't find the Pound Marss vs Pink Fresh video. Can you find it to support your own point? During my search I found this Nick Riddle vs Pink Fresh match. Notice that missed Witch Twist is punished 0/2 times and whiffed Boost Kick is punished 1/1 times.

It shouldn't be this hard for you to find a video of Bayo getting reliably punished for missing Witch Twist/regular ABK. I'm asking you to cherry-pick something you claim to be prevalent, and it hasn't been done. Please don't come back with another ridiculous notion like there is no missed move punished above 50% of the time.

 

[Poopencio]

I think if there ever is a nerf it should be the distance on her up-b and the knockback downwards side-b (Also make her bounce off at a shorter range, that way she can still combo, but not carry you to the top as easily). The nerf on up-b will worsen her recovery, but she can use two of those and side be AND an extra jump (which is some tech Bayo mains discovered), so it won't be such a big deal. About witch time, the window for bat within should be way smaller, and only at the beggining of the move, why? Even if you read witch time and lets say, charge a smash attack she'll just bat within away and even punish you if you don't time the attack correctly and not attack in the window she is vulnerable, which is also very small.

These nerfs would definetly make Bayonetta worse and maybe not be the best in the game anymore, but still remain as a top tier. But if there ever is such a nerf then we would have to look for an exploit against her or figure out counterpicks, etc.

Also watch this video from Beefy Smash Doods if you haven't already: https://youtu.be/uNO5FudmyAc

 

[blackghost]

1. Whiffed Shoryukens get punished. See this video between Trela and Ryo. Missed Shoryuken is punished 2/3 times. Notice how Trela only throws it out when he thinks he can convert into it. This is because it's a high risk move!
2. Monkey flip isn't a high reward move. Why bring it up? Few Diddy's even use it anymore, so if it goes unpunished it's probably due to surprise.
3. I can't find the Pound Marss vs Pink Fresh video. Can you find it to support your own point? During my search I found this Nick Riddle vs Pink Fresh match. Notice that missed Witch Twist is punished 0/2 times and whiffed Boost Kick is punished 1/1 times.

It shouldn't be this hard for you to find a video of Bayo getting reliably punished for missing Witch Twist/regular ABK. I'm asking you to cherry-pick something you claim to be prevalent, and it hasn't been done. Please don't come back with another ridiculous notion like there is no missed move punished above 50% of the time.

You are really testing people on this forum you arent making points you are cherry picking the video is up on youtube. Tou come accorss as a hater. And really you distracted me from previous points.
The most important thing is whiffed witch twist and whiffed abk or dabk are punishable. If you miss that punish its on you.
Dont tell me you couldnt find the video it was pound a major regional tournament its on youtube. Try looking. If it somhiw isn't there go on twitch and search. You are making crazy claims about a move not being punished when everyone knows it can be actually doong it is a players problem not bayonetta's

 

[PeeDeeZee]

You are really testing people on this forum you arent making points you are cherry picking the video is up on youtube. Tou come accorss as a hater. And really you distracted me from previous points.
The most important thing is whiffed witch twist and whiffed abk or dabk are punishable. If you miss that punish its on you.
Dont tell me you couldnt find the video it was pound a major regional tournament its on youtube. Try looking. If it somhiw isn't there go on twitch and search. You are making crazy claims about a move not being punished when everyone knows it can be actually doong it is a players problem not bayonetta's

I found the video. It was actually uploaded today after your post!

Whiffed ABK and Witch Twist (non-recovering) are punished 30% of the time. All punishes were soft. Missed Boost Kick was punished 1/1 times with an Up-Smash KO. Don't say it's "on you" for not getting a punish. Marss is an incredible player that creates and takes opportunities at will.

In case you haven't noticed: I'm not cherry-picking anymore. I found the match YOU picked and it still came back in favor of my argument.

 

[BJN39]

okay, been thinking alot.
if I was Sakurai and I was forced into "nerfing" bayonetta without actually killing her and her playstyle in the progress, I would do this:

First UpB:
Looping Hitbox: SDi modifier from 1 to 1.2/1.3: This would make it easier to escape with SDi to get out the combo.
Final Hitbox: SDi Modifier from 1 to 1.3: makes the DI much harder to predict together that you need to predict where the opponent will DI to as it will be sliglty bigger area to DI against
Total Damage reduced with 2%

Second UpB:
-Same like the first UpB but this too-
Final Hitbox: Base Knockback slightly increased by small unit. this is an double-edge sword. it will make the opponent fly just slightly away from Bayonetta instead for being infront of her face meaning you can have a bigger chance of escaping. but since its higher base knockback, it will give the opponent higher hitstun by 1-2 frames
Total Damage reduced with 2%

you can increase the Knockback Growth instead, but that is also an double-edge sword that makes Second UpB kill earlier with increased hitstun at earlier %

Downward After Burner Kick (both):
Bounce for Bayonetta and Opponent decreased by 90-80%, meaning they will not fly up as high as before on hit and shield:

Landing After Burner Kick (on Ground)
FAF increased with 3-5 Frames, encourage to Spotdodge or Spacing when Bayonetta approaches with this move


Overrall Weakness:
Increases all "if all SideBs and UpBs is used in air" by 6 frames on landing.
its not much but it discourage Bayonetta to go Willy and Nilly with her Special recklessly when her landing lag will be more punishable, especially when the SDI modifier is slightly increased on her combos

I actually kind of like these changes, maybe I'd make a few notes on it...

First UpB:
Looping Hitbox: SDi modifier from 1 to 1.2/1.3: This would make it easier to escape with SDi to get out the combo.
Final Hitbox: SDi Modifier from 1 to 1.3: makes the DI much harder to predict together that you need to predict where the opponent will DI to as it will be sliglty bigger area to DI against
Total Damage reduced with 2%

SDI is pretty minor in SSB4, so I'd say it could maybe even go up to 1.4/1.5 SDI. It'd really need testing, but considering the specific care put into her moveset, this doesn't seem improbable. Maybe at least the first hit could have even more elevated SDI. like x1.5 on hit 1, and x1.2/x1.3 for hits 2-6.

Altering the SDI of the final hit would actually not change the final hit angle DI ability in any way, it would really only alter the exit "position" after that hit, and only by a tiny bit unless the multiplier were very high, like x2.0. Either way if skilled mashing out could allow escape of the up B itself, I don't see how this would be needed.

6/7% is already pretty low tbh, even if it's her greatest combo move pretty much. I could see 1-1.5% less, but any less and the move basically doesn't do damage. like... lowering the first hit more from 3/2% on the firsthit, to 1.5%/1% and stuff.

Fundamentally, I'm against nerfing multihits so that they DON'T connect, because I've suffered as Zelda for too long, but another way for it to be made less silly other than damage would be neat.

Second UpB:
-Same like the first UpB but this too-
Final Hitbox: Base Knockback slightly increased by small unit. this is an double-edge sword. it will make the opponent fly just slightly away from Bayonetta instead for being infront of her face meaning you can have a bigger chance of escaping. but since its higher base knockback, it will give the opponent higher hitstun by 1-2 frames
Total Damage reduced with 2%

If the bkb of the hit was increased, it would need to be so much that UAir could not be followed up with. (only FAir) I would either that, or LOWER the bkb a tiny bit so that you don't have the hit advantage to land UAir, but still FAir. It would need to be specific, but it isn't impossible.

Downward After Burner Kick (both):
Bounce for Bayonetta and Opponent decreased by 90-80%, meaning they will not fly up as high as before on hit and shield:

I mean, just simply lowering the kb on hit would be fine and really easy, while being able to cut super low percent 236B combos from being insane. Bayonetta's bounce could be nerfed as well, but it doesn't seem as necessary after removing the silly combo ability. I'd say lower the damage or something like from 8% -> 7% tbh. I also agree on the landing lag idea.


...Is anyone here deathly against UAir just getting the damage nerf wrist slap? Like, from 9% to 8% isn't scandalous, it would still be decent for all of its stats. Then just edit, aka raise, the bkb slightly to match the old damage and call it a day on UAir. Less KO power (Not hugely so tbh) but the same combo ability.




IDK just throwing thoughts out.

 

[pikazz]

I actually kind of like these changes, maybe I'd make a few notes on it...

First UpB:
Looping Hitbox: SDi modifier from 1 to 1.2/1.3: This would make it easier to escape with SDi to get out the combo.
Final Hitbox: SDi Modifier from 1 to 1.3: makes the DI much harder to predict together that you need to predict where the opponent will DI to as it will be sliglty bigger area to DI against
Total Damage reduced with 2%

SDI is pretty minor in SSB4, so I'd say it could maybe even go up to 1.4/1.5 SDI. It'd really need testing, but considering the specific care put into her moveset, this doesn't seem improbable. Maybe at least the first hit could have even more elevated SDI. like x1.5 on hit 1, and x1.2/x1.3 for hits 2-6.

Altering the SDI of the final hit would actually not change the final hit angle DI ability in any way, it would really only alter the exit "position" after that hit, and only by a tiny bit unless the multiplier were very high, like x2.0. Either way if skilled mashing out could allow escape of the up B itself, I don't see how this would be needed.

6/7% is already pretty low tbh, even if it's her greatest combo move pretty much. I could see 1-1.5% less, but any less and the move basically doesn't do damage. like... lowering the first hit more from 3/2% on the firsthit, to 1.5%/1% and stuff.

Fundamentally, I'm against nerfing multihits so that they DON'T connect, because I've suffered as Zelda for too long, but another way for it to be made less silly other than damage would be neat.

Second UpB:
-Same like the first UpB but this too-
Final Hitbox: Base Knockback slightly increased by small unit. this is an double-edge sword. it will make the opponent fly just slightly away from Bayonetta instead for being infront of her face meaning you can have a bigger chance of escaping. but since its higher base knockback, it will give the opponent higher hitstun by 1-2 frames
Total Damage reduced with 2%

If the bkb of the hit was increased, it would need to be so much that UAir could not be followed up with. (only FAir) I would either that, or LOWER the bkb a tiny bit so that you don't have the hit advantage to land UAir, but still FAir. It would need to be specific, but it isn't impossible.

Downward After Burner Kick (both):
Bounce for Bayonetta and Opponent decreased by 90-80%, meaning they will not fly up as high as before on hit and shield:

I mean, just simply lowering the kb on hit would be fine and really easy, while being able to cut super low percent 236B combos from being insane. Bayonetta's bounce could be nerfed as well, but it doesn't seem as necessary after removing the silly combo ability. I'd say lower the damage or something like from 8% -> 7% tbh. I also agree on the landing lag idea.


...Is anyone here deathly against UAir just getting the damage nerf wrist slap? Like, from 9% to 8% isn't scandalous, it would still be decent for all of its stats. Then just edit, aka raise, the bkb slightly to match the old damage and call it a day on UAir. Less KO power (Not hugely so tbh) but the same combo ability.




IDK just throwing thoughts out.

the "data" for the nerfs/tweaks needs some testing to get the correct of amount. example like the UpBs, the stuff I said might be little too weak, but it still need to have that balance that it is escapable but not that escapable so its utterly useless.
basically, its the areas of the moves I would edit to get the perfect balance of the moves.

I dont really mind UAir and UpB connecting to UAir as I feel her UAir is "meh" to me.
my personal opinion I would love to have the UAir after UpB as an Kill Mixup, but its still safer to use the FAirs or NAirs as the opponent can DI and make you miss the UAir.

but I do respect a 1% decrease on her UAir if it happens

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Regarding Witch Time,

Stay Calm and GRAB.

Nah, I haven't played enough against Bayo-Mayo to discuss much on her. I do have great fun fighting her, even as a Bowser main.

 

[blackghost]

I found the video. It was actually uploaded today after your post!

Whiffed ABK and Witch Twist (non-recovering) are punished 30% of the time. All punishes were soft. Missed Boost Kick was punished 1/1 times with an Up-Smash KO. Don't say it's "on you" for not getting a punish. Marss is an incredible player that creates and takes opportunities at will.

In case you haven't noticed: I'm not cherry-picking anymore. I found the match YOU picked and it still came back in favor of my argument.

who won the set? lol
he won the set punishing a shielded divekick. so not all punishes were soft.
and he also punished batwithin.
i don't think you watched the set very closely.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

who won the set? lol
he won the set punishing a shielded divekick. so not all punishes were soft.
and he also punished batwithin.
i don't think you watched the set very closely.

You have too much patience to keep arguing with people like him. Kudos!

 

[DJblackviolence]

I like how this thread is just a circlejerk of bayonetta players that flame you if you disagree with them. there are a few respectful people here at least