My idea for a Bayonetta Fix

[pikazz]

I have mained Bayonetta since day one so I know what I am talking about.

and I said only "Fix" I can see happening IF they decide to balance her, as it doesnt hurt bayonetta as an character and doesnt hurt how she is played but more as an Balance Tweak

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I think it is to early to consider if she need to be "fixed".
The only nerf I think should happen is an slightly increase on her landing after using special, but it is still a lot right now. Not enough people are punishing her landing after a combo and basically give her free safe combos, people should try to be more active against her.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I might make Divekick start up 1-2 frames slower and have more endlag on whiff. Witch Twist I'd also probably nerf its startup but you can't really increase endlag without ruining her recovery.

 

[SkippyJ]

Honestly, i think shes going to be nerfed, its what the majority of the community wants, but if it doesnt happen well i guess its not a huge deal to me. I just hope that if or when she DOES get nerfed, the dev team has the mind not to seriously destroy her as so many others would like to see. So many of the nerfs that people are proposing would absolutely wreck her combos, making them either not kill, be incredibly risky, or both.

That would ruin her playstyle for a lot of current bayo mains. If her combos dont kill or become lessoned in some way then she loses her main selling point. As some of you have said, her neutral is not good enough to be a top character without her rediculous combos. And if you make them less safe, thats just going to make bayo a significantly slower more measured character, and making any character play slower hurts viewership. I mean seriously if you go helpless after second up B, you will die to an up air by the majority of the cast.

Dont you think a passive nerf that only hurts low skill maneuvers would be a better idea than doing something that would change the way she has to play entirely? Weight nerf and bat within nerf would solve all the problems while hardly hurting bayo mains at all. If you nerf her combos, 40% of bayo mains are going to leave. Nerf her weight and bat within and id be shocked to see even 10% leave.

 

[SkippyJ]

Giving dive kick more endlag on wif might be okay, so long as its still safe on sheild. That would encourage the opponent to use more movement and offense instead of sheilding, which would be a good thing.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I think if they changed how the divekick worked by making it so that divekick does not bounce on shield, and instead just makes her hit the ground with added endlag (so its punishable on shield)...

OR...

Make it so that divekick, when it hits a shield, has added endlag and doesnt send her up as far, meaning it could be punished by a shorthop aerial...

That could make dealing with her a bit easier while maintaining her bait and punish, combo-centric playstyle.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Whatever nerfs Bayonetta may or may not get, I highly doubt she'll get hammered too hard on frame data. The entire point of her character is air combos, and extra startup or endlag puts that character identity at risk.

That said, I can see a few viable routes to take with nerfing Bayonetta if it comes to that:

• Increase startup on grounded Witch Twist, leaving aerial Witch Twist alone. This reduces its power as an OOS option while still retaining its ability to combo out of e.g. fair 1 or ABK.
• Increase endlag frames when landing with dABK. This leaves her more open to punishment when using it as a landing option, forcing her to be more careful in general.
• Reduce the "float" from fair and dABK on hit. This would nerf the potency of her ceiling combos by not lifting her and the target as high. Adjusting knockback, angles, etc. may be necessary to keep followups possible.
  
• In general, add extra ending lag to Witch Twist and (d)ABK, but let them cancel on hit similar to Ryu's...everything. This will help make them punishable as burst movement escape options but still retain their combo ability.

 

[SkippyJ]

Agghhhh why do people think the only way to nerf her is by messing with her offense? :'( make her a glass cannon and everyone will be happy! She can SAFELY kill at 0? She should be able to be killed at 80, that simple. I mean, puff dies at 80 all the time and that's to balance out the fact that she can kill at 40 (with THE most unsafe move in the game), surely asking that bayonetta be puff weight or lighter can't be too much to ask.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Agghhhh why do people think the only way to nerf her is by messing with her offense? :'( make her a glass cannon and everyone will be happy! She can SAFELY kill at 0? She should be able to be killed at 80, that simple. I mean, puff dies at 80 all the time and that's to balance out the fact that she can kill at 40 (with THE most unsafe move in the game), surely asking that bayonetta be puff weight or lighter can't be too much to ask.

Puff weight isn't happening, but Mewtwo weight I could see and wouldn't be too unreasonable, as her disadvantaged state is good enough to make it hard to finish her without a reliable kill confirm. Her ability to reset to neutral pretty easily in tandem with her crazy combo game is the real problem, so this is one of the rare situations where a weight nerf alone would matter.

 

[Conn1496]

I don't think endlag or damage is at all the issue - it's absolutely about the positioning and KB of her moves.

dABK for starters is too powerful a climb for combos - you can kill most characters from 30% from grounded on FD because of these alone in my experience. I'd say just literally reduce dABK base vertical knockback so nothing can string from dABK until higher %s (80%?) where combos will work as they currently do.

Then from there, you probably want to increase KB scaling on Witch Twist, so higher climbing combos start failing earlier, though not before kill %s.

Do both of these right, and I think you could end up with a fair KO combo window that would still leave Bayo with a powerful combo and kill game that feels fairer and more situational than the current "kill from x% by using all specials at once" combos she has now.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Dive Kick is safe on shield, but not on landing. People should try to spot dodge it and go for a punish.
The amount of landing lag Dive Kick have depends on how much specials she used.
20 frames if it was her first ABK.
26 frames if she used a Witch Twist beforehand.
30 frames if it was her second ABK (with or without a Witch Twist).
32 frames if she used two Witch Twist beforehand, this is also the same amount as if she landed with an aerial or normal landing after two Witch Twist.
43 frames if it was her second ABK after two Witch Twist.

 

[Quantumpen]

Bayonetta only needs two actual changes if we want to keep her play style roughly the same:

Witch time should scale with the % damage of the attack she countered in some way (perhaps a knockback/damage penalty to any attacks if you wt'd a jab, while if you WT a smash attack you get what we have now). You could scale the duration too, but should only do one or the other. This would make the move very strong, but it wouldn't shut the opponent down and force them to turtle because all their moves are suddenly high risk. Too much of the meta vs bayo is "can I bait out witch time". If you can, you get like a grab... but she gets to kill you at 0 %.

You can also just put a max time limit on witch-time so that she can't get jank kills off of it, she just gets a strong smash attack. I think that'd be a totally fine (simpler) solution, though I do like the idea of her getting to style if she can WT a big powerful attack.

The other is to do something about how low percent kill combos. I like the idea of lessening vertical carry for the "short" version of her up b (where you don't hold the button) so she can't get as high when doing her combos, but can still end them with up airs for kills at higher percents when up-air kills. This way she doesn't have her recovery messed with either.

I really think these are the only major problems the character has. Make diddy-esque changes to reduce their over-centralizing effect while leaving them in as options just with a viable/powerful but not ridiculous risk-reward imbalance, and you'd have a great (stylish) smasher.

An alternative route (As others have mentioned) is to leave her as she is and give her some terrible crippling weakness. Like weight of 64 or something. Then she's high risk high reward since she stands to die at crazy low percents while also threatening to kill the opponent at low percents. I don't like this option as much as the first, but it would work.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Witch time should scale with the % damage of the attack she countered in some way (perhaps a knockback/damage penalty to any attacks if you wt'd a jab, while if you WT a smash attack you get what we have now). You could scale the duration too, but should only do one or the other. This would make the move very strong, but it wouldn't shut the opponent down and force them to turtle because all their moves are suddenly high risk. Too much of the meta vs bayo is "can I bait out witch time". If you can, you get like a grab... but she gets to kill you at 0 %.

If it scales with damage, WT would become one of the worst counter in the game. If countering a jab only gives you 25 frames of slow down, there isn't much you can do with it and you could get punished instead. Strong attacks are already extremely rarely in top level play, this is why counters is rarely used there, now . Why are you not rewarded for a proper read? Witch Time already decays by 75 frames per use and only regenerate 3.6 frames per second (0.06F per frames), messing up one means your opponent no long has to worry about her Witch Time since she can't do much with lowered timer.

You can also just put a max time limit on witch-time so that she can't get jank kills off of it, she just gets a strong smash attack. I think that'd be a totally fine (simpler) solution, though I do like the idea of her getting to style if she can WT a big powerful attack.]

There is already a max time limit on Witch Time.

The other is to do something about how low percent kill combos. I like the idea of lessening vertical carry for the "short" version of her up b (where you don't hold the button) so she can't get as high when doing her combos, but can still end them with up airs for kills at higher percents w

Witch Twist uses autolink angles, it would be impossible to reduce the vertical carry without reducing the height of Witch Twist.
Witch Twist is already barely better than Little Mac's UpB.

An alternative route (As others have mentioned) is to leave her as she is and give her some terrible crippling weakness. Like weight of 64 or something. Then she's high risk high reward since she stands to die at crazy low percents while also threatening to kill the opponent at low percents. I don't like this option as much as the first, but it would work.

Dude, that is crazy light. Lighter than Jiggly. At this point, you are just aimlessly swinging the nerf hammer on a one month old character.
Just like so much people.....
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/632937-super-smash-bros-for-nintendo-3ds/70239466
https://www.change.org/p/masahiro-sakurai-patch-little-mac-in-super-smash-bros-for-3ds-wii-u

 

[Quantumpen]

If it scales with damage, WT would become one of the worst counter in the game. If countering a jab only gives you 25 frames of slow down, there isn't much you can do with it and you could get punished instead. Strong attacks are already extremely rarely in top level play, this is why counters is rarely used there, now . Why are you not rewarded for a proper read? Witch Time already decays by 75 frames per use and only regenerate 3.6 frames per second (0.06F per frames), messing up one means your opponent no long has to worry about her Witch Time since she can't do much with lowered timer.

That's the entire point. She shouldn't be able to get kills off of witch timing a jab that's not "rewarding" a proper read, it's the primary reason the character is broken. It doesn't matter if she can do it only once only 20 seconds if every time she does it she can easily convert to a kill (which she can). It'd be better to nerf the maximum reward from witch time and if necessary dial back on the scaling of the move.

There is already a max time limit on Witch Time.

I'm well aware -- the point is that max timer is far too long. She's currently able to get kills at low percents off of WT either by converting to an air combo or by getting a double smash spike. If the way the counter works isn't changed, then she should essentially be limited to a smash attack on a fresh witch-time and nothing else. That's potentially a kill, but only at high percents -- which is fine.

Note that only one of these two things needs to be done. Either would be a reasonable nerf -- which would enable her to still get kills in some situations without letting her convert off of "any" move the opponent makes. She shouldn't be able to do that -- it's essentially turning all of their options into super-high risk moves which forces them to turtle until they bait it out. Sure players can do this, but the bayo player can also counterplay and since she has such great reward from succeeded that game is very skewed in her favor. If bayo is not high percent and she whiffs witch-time it hardly matters, you might get a grab/a bit of damage. If she hits it fresh, you're dead.

Witch Twist uses autolink angles, it would be impossible to reduce the vertical carry without reducing the height of Witch Twist.
Witch Twist is already barely better than Little Mac's UpB.

That's not true at all, there are two versions of the move. Have the version where you hold up B keep the same height and lag (as it's already to long to follow-up), and make the quick version of the move which can be followed him have reduced vertical carry and height, but the same pop-out angle w.r.t to bayonetta so that her combos still work. Then she can end her combos with an up-air, which will only kill at high percents.

These are completely reasonable nerfs. It means Bayonetta can still kill with her combos, but she has to wrack up sizeable amounts of damage first.

Dude, that is crazy light. Lighter than Jiggly. At this point, you are just aimlessly swinging the nerf hammer on a one month old character.
Just like so much people.....
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/632937-super-smash-bros-for-nintendo-3ds/70239466
https://www.change.org/p/masahiro-sakurai-patch-little-mac-in-super-smash-bros-for-3ds-wii-u

Nope, if you want to balance her with a weight nerf she should be the lightest character in the game. At least that way she's truly high risk high reward. Note that this is only something you'd do if you decided you don't want to modify her current toolkit at all, leave her with 0 to death combos that can't really be DI'd and her current witch-time. It's another way to modify her low risk- high reward problem (upping risk instead of reducing reward)

 

[SoccerStar9001]

That's the entire point. She shouldn't be able to get kills off of witch timing a jab that's not "rewarding" a proper read, it's the primary reason the character is broken. It doesn't matter if she can do it only once only 20 seconds if every time she does it she can easily convert to a kill (which she can). It'd be better to nerf the maximum reward from witch time and if necessary dial back on the scaling of the move

Her zero to death aren't guaranteed but you treats it as it is, that is your problem. You treat it as if she touch you once, you die, which is far from true. It truly makes me wonder if you are rambling on based off of tournament videos instead of playing her yourself.
Most characters' jab comes out faster than Witch Time and has low cool downs, if by chance a character get Witch Timed with a jab, they can go for a spot dodge to save themselves. If you keep the "it doesn't matter if xxx" train of thoughts, you deserve to be swept off the floor.

I'm well aware -- the point is that max timer is far too long. She's currently able to get kills at low percents off of WT either by converting to an air combo or by getting a double smash spike. If the way the counter works isn't changed, then she should essentially be limited to a smash attack on a fresh witch-time and nothing else. That's potentially a kill, but only at high percents -- which is fine

What? If that is what you wanted to do you aren't even fixing it properly. Bayonetta's Smash Attacks are laggy, you can't limited her to only Smash Attacks since her combo are much faster. It takes less time to set her combos than using her Smashes.

Note that only one of these two things needs to be done. Either would be a reasonable nerf -- which would enable her to still get kills in some situations without letting her convert off of "any" move the opponent makes. She shouldn't be able to do that -- it's essentially turning all of their options into super-high risk moves which forces them to turtle until they bait it out. Sure players can do this, but the bayo player can also counterplay and since she has such great reward from succeeded that game is very skewed in her favor. If bayo is not high percent and she whiffs witch-time it hardly matters, you might get a grab/a bit of damage. If she hits it fresh, you're dead.

Reasonable nerfs? More like blind nerfs. Witch Time already decay everytime she use, and her normal are just plain terrible. Baiting Bayonetta to dodge is an important aspect to fighting her since at of them are very punishable. The "someone is different and force me to play in a certain way" was the exact same argument people used on Little Mac when he was popular.

That's not true at all, there are two versions of the move. Have the version where you hold up B keep the same height and lag (as it's already to long to follow-up), and make the quick version of the move which can be followed him have reduced vertical carry and height, but the same pop-out angle w.r.t to bayonetta so that her combos still work. Then she can end her combos with an up-air, which will only kill at high percents.

Then you just worsened her recovery, she can't immediately jump after using a bullet art UpB so the vertical distance is lowered. Witch Twist already cover a short distance, shortening it make her recovery much worst. Plus, it is still possible to follow up after a BA Witch Twist.

These are completely reasonable nerfs. It means Bayonetta can still kill with her combos, but she has to wrack up sizeable amounts of damage first.

This is really just deja vu right now. Replace Bayonetta with Little Mac and Combo with Smash attack, and you just have the same sentence as Little Mac complainers.

Nope, if you want to balance her with a weight nerf she should be the lightest character in the game. At least that way she's truly high risk high reward. Note that this is only something you'd do if you decided you don't want to modify her current toolkit at all, leave her with 0 to death combos that can't really be DI'd and her current witch-time. It's another way to modify her low risk- high reward problem (upping risk instead of reducing reward)

Man, I remember how people said the same thing for Little Mac, "oh make him almost as light, if not lighter, than Jigglypuff."
Again with the guarantee 0 to death, it isn't and it is moderately hard to pull off.
Again kiddo, you are just swing the nerf hammer aimlessly on a one month old character after many scrubs has shown how misinformed people can get.
https://www.change.org/p/masahiro-sakurai-patch-little-mac-in-super-smash-bros-for-3ds-wii-u

 

[Quantumpen]

Not a single one of your responses made any sense. Her death combos are guaranteed -- you can't DI them against a good player (I'm average at best and can get them more than half the time...). Don't believe me? Ask zero. Or just use your brain -- you have so much time to react to the opponents DI and bayonetta can confirm one off of many different set-ups... OOS up-b, d-tilt, dive kick (which is safe) -- etc. People like Nairo have learned to reliably read DI in much more difficult, quicker combos (ZSS's) -- there is no way you'll be getting out of that crap once bayo mains have had a few months to get her combo theory down. They need to be fixed. You can't seriously argue that it makes sense for Bayonetta to be the only character able to reliably punish a single mistake with death?

No, you can't. If you try you'll end up embarrassing yourself. Tweaking her combo tools she loses her low percent kill confirms but can still kill at higher percents is the ideal solution. I don't want her combos gutted, but she shouldn't get a potential stock off of one winning neutral exchange at low percents -- EVER.

Witch Time is broken. You're in denial if you think otherwise -- it doesn't matter if it has a cooldown -- the reward from landing the movie is completely absurd, and the threat of the move shuts down your opponent which puts bayonetta in a very favorable position. They have to run around and grab/try to bait until you blow it. Your '"rebuttals" don't make any sense. Make it break on hit, make it short enough that she can get one smash attack (safely) and not much else, scale the knockback or duration, there's a lot of ways to fix the move that don't make it useless but remove the moves ability to lead to deaths from one neutral victory.

That's Bayo's problem -- she can win off of one neutral victory. Fix that while letting her keep her combo flavor -- don't kill the options just tune the rewards to make sense.

 

[CreamyFatone]

Increase the SDI multiplier on WTwist.

Put lag on dABK so the victim has an opportunity to airdodge or jump or nair out.

I'm not sure about this one because I've never really seen a good Bayonetta miss a combo too badly, but increase the landing lag on her specials so that she is actually punishable for missing the last hit.

I'll say this, just looking at the frame data for WTwist, it seems like it was intended for her to be able to combo into the ceiling blast zone. There's almost no KB on the second hit specifically. Despite how you feel about zero-to-death, that sort of thing seems to be in her design. She's an all-or-nothing character, although as the meta has optimized her right now she's an all-or-eventually-all character.

And about Witch Time...it not a bad concept, but the fact that it doesn't scale with the move that hits it at all is baffling. I can literally SDI a multihit job move and mash out a counter and then they're ****ed. You should really get almost no slowdown for a jab, or any weak non-committal move. It should really just scale with the degree of commitment the opponent makes. Damage or knockback, whatever. If you allow this move to work on moves that are supposed to be safe in this game, you've essentially designed a character that you cannot do anything against. Every attack on this character is a non-counter read. If I poke here, I don't think the Bayonetta will counter, but I don't know. I have to empty hop or fake out that Witch Time so I can even go in. It's like Little Mac's KO punch, except that you can get rid of a KO punch. She has that permanent psychological advantage. Which is FINE, if it was really only deadly against moves that are deadly to her. In my mind, a fresh Witch Time should work as a get out of jail card against weak moves, a strong punish against strong moves, and she should get that full Witch Time back every 2 minutes.

 

[Jexulus]

As someone who's fought Bayo a grand total of once on For Glory, but has watched a few tournament matches of her gameplay, I'm going to throw my hat into the ring.

1. I think Witch Time needs a little tweaking in regard to its length, but not a major one. Maybe the amount of time someone is locked in WT doesn't need to be as dependent on damage as it is knockback? Not entirely dependent on knockback, but it might not be a bad idea to make it a major factor. Makes it a more potent option if Bayo can survive a bit longer than usual while not making it useless at early percents. Also, the rate doesn't have to be 1 to 1; I think a floor of 35-40 frames for things like jabs would be adequate (I say this without any knowledge of its actual parameters, but whatever), but the ceiling could be less than triple that number. Basically, WT can still be ridiculous, but only under specific (though not unfeasible) circumstances.

2. The ladder combo itself is not the problem; it's that it can kill ridiculously early. My suggested fix without throwing out the combo? Change the angle of her Uair to something a bit more horizontal. That way, it can still kill early, but not to the point of absurdity.

Again, I speak from a position of ignorance, but from what I can tell, these seem to be the main points of contention for Bayo.

 

[Deku Skrublord]

I think that Witch Time should be a bit like Ryu's Focus Attack in that it should slow them down and all that, but as soon as she hits the opponent, they get out of it and move at a normal speed again. I think the time should actually be greatened, but as soon as they get hit, no more Witch Time. That way, it can't be used as a free 45% combo but as a free way to set up for a combo. That would put a little bit less "brokenness" on the move

 

[pikazz]

sorry but this went overboard by asking Zero. his words isnt laws and you should not follow him blindly.
you can DI from her combos as they are NOT guaranteed. what will you listen on? someone thats not been playing Bayo properly or True Bayonetta Mains.
I am playing against my skilled friend Ganon and he can literally DI away from my Death Combos at lower %
Like when he is DIing from my dABK, he is always in perfect Range for my FAir1 to either hit with the Strong Hitbox or miss completely and its the Weak Hitbox you want to continue. the only time I can kill him is at 80% with an combo thats optimized for that % and not at 0%.
between him and me, its 50/50 win ratio and please remember thats a Ganon I am talking about.

dont get my started on SmashDI

she doesnt really need any fix and it sadly only getting worse on blind nerfs and complaining for complaining sake, I am getting out of here

 

[Conn1496]

I think people are really missing the point about complaints for "Bayonetta being OP". It's basically the same stuff Meta Knight and ZSS have been getting flak for since basically day 1, except they got nerfed. It's comparatively unfair to give her special treatment. Bayonetta would have been fairly acceptable pre-patch (She had only slightly stronger KO combos than MK, for example, and she was far less safe.), but from my experience, Bayo still has true combos from roughly 30% on most characters that KO even when the other person DIs (As long as Bayo reads the DI, which isn't wholly too difficult against a lot of people.). They do require more skill than pre-patch MK, but they're still around, and that's the problem.

The difference is, MK and ZSS's earlier KOs got nerfed. Not removed, but nerfed. They're either much harder, unreliable, or simply don't kill anymore. You can still get your ass handed to you fairly often by MK or ZSS from 50%, but it's solely from player skill and input. With Bayo, 50% combos are reliable as long as you get them right. Your opponent can only do so much, and you can read and counteract those defenses as you could with MK pre-patch (I'm honestly a little unsure about ZSS, but I understand she got nerfed for similar reasons.). You can counter their defensive strategy. That's, again, pretty unfair.

However, what I would say is that since MK and ZSS can still, even post nerf, get some disgustingly early true combo KOs (MK can still say 'so long gay Bowser' at 80% with minimal reads, for example.), just make Bayo's combos kill at similar or slightly lower %s (Bayo is far less safe than MK and ZSS, so it seems fair to say that her kills could be earlier.). However, Bayo's 30% kill combos are not fair in the new patch... That's roughly a full 50% difference on MK's true combo KO post nerf.

I know I keep comparing Bayo to MK, but it's the best way I can describe it - plus, I felt that MK's nerfs were fair and I started to secondary him pre-patch (As cool as the MK ladder was, it lost its charm fast since it carried me through games too often.). I also play Bayo, and I wouldn't feel bad if my combos suddenly couldn't kill before 80%, because as they are, they deal about 40%-50% on average. 2-3 combos to kill is still pretty obscenely powerful. Not counting chip damage and gimps (Maybe even Witch Time, which I still don't get why people think it's OP.), you still have a pretty damn powerful character.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Not a single one of your responses made any sense. Her death combos are guaranteed -- you can't DI them against a good player (I'm average at best and can get them more than half the time...). Don't believe me? Ask zero.

I guess you were rambling based off of videos. I don't really care how good you are, I care more about how good your victim is.

Or just use your brain -- you have so much time to react to the opponents DI and bayonetta can confirm one off of many different set-ups... OOS up-b, d-tilt, dive kick (which is safe) -- etc. People like Nairo have learned to reliably read DI in much more difficult, quicker combos (ZSS's) -- there is no way you'll be getting out of that crap once bayo mains have had a few months to get her combo theory down.

Dive Kick is safe on shield, but not on landing. Just spot dodge it and punish. So someone who spends months getting their combo theories worked out should be unable to sweep the floor with those who are unable to adapt? SDI, DI, etc are all effective if you practice and mix it up. She combo you regardless of DI, but effective DI makes 0 to death almost impossible.

They need to be fixed. You can't seriously argue that it makes sense for Bayonetta to be the only character able to reliably punish a single mistake with death?

I thought Little Mac was the only character that can do that (KO Punch), guess people find a way to deal with it.

No, you can't. If you try you'll end up embarrassing yourself. Tweaking her combo tools she loses her low percent kill confirms but can still kill at higher percents is the ideal solution. I don't want her combos gutted, but she shouldn't get a potential stock off of one winning neutral exchange at low percents -- EVER.

Hmmmm.......... Little Mac vibe..........

Witch Time is broken. You're in denial if you think otherwise -- it doesn't matter if it has a cooldown -- the reward from landing the movie is completely absurd, and the threat of the move shuts down your opponent which puts bayonetta in a very favorable position. They have to run around and grab/try to bait until you blow it. Your '"rebuttals" don't make any sense. Make it break on hit, make it short enough that she can get one smash attack (safely) and not much else, scale the knockback or duration, there's a lot of ways to fix the move that don't make it useless but remove the moves ability to lead to deaths from one neutral victory.

If she can get a Smash Attack, she can setup a combo. A combo takes only one frame 7 move to setup.

That's Bayo's problem -- she can win off of one neutral victory. Fix that while letting her keep her combo flavor -- don't kill the options just tune the rewards to make sense.

All of your point would end up faulty if people found out how to effectively prevent 0 to death, none of these nerfs would be justified then.

https://www.change.org/p/masahiro-sakurai-patch-little-mac-in-super-smash-bros-for-3ds-wii-u
lol, this petition even called Little Mac fake balance. Little did he know he was just a misinformed scrub.

 

[SkippyJ]

SoccerStar9001
1. First of all, dont call people kiddo, its condecending.

2. Zero plays against top level opponents, and he is a top level player. He would know better than you if you can reliably escape the combos, and if bayo needs nerfs. Even top level bayos like pinkfresh and dabuz say she needs nerfs, they also know better then you.

3. Up B, airiel side B, dive kick, dtilt, utilt, fair 1, fair 2, falling up air, witch time. Any and all of these moves are essentially one hit kills and can be done at any time (unlike KO punch), and are viable and relativily low risk options anywhere on screen (where as mac gets destroyed on the outer two thirds of the stage and in the air as well). The comparison to mac is litterally bull crap. Mac had glaring weaknesses that were aparent from the very beginning, people always seen them. Its not that suddenly players found them where previously none were to be found, players just got better at exploiting them. With bayonetta, there are litterally hardly ANY to be found. There is nothing to get good at exploiting. There is nothing to exploit. You litterally just have to sheild everything and hope they mess up, which i guess is reasonable at a low level but top level bayos just arnt going to be wiffing dive kicks every five seconds.

3. Your claim that we are just blindly swinging the nerf hammer for suggesting a weight nerf is INSANE. Or for wanting any nerfs, for that matter. I didnt want a sheik nerf, i didnt want a luigi nerf, i didnt want a metaknight nerf, ive never wanted a mac or rosa nerf, I am NOT one to blindly swing the nerf hammer. In fact, i think that many of us here have given great justifications for our different sugestions. How is that blind?

4. Calling people scrubs just makes you sound like an a**.

5. If jiggs is made to be as light as she is (and given a horrendous neutral) because she has an unreliable, incredibly unsafe move that kills at 40, then bayo can be equally light for having MANY safe, reliable, moves that kill at 0%+ and a pretty darn decent neutral to back it up.

6. If metaknight cant have an EXTREAMLY technical combo that kills at 20% and doesnt work at the ledge to go along with his super predictable neutral, then its fair to say that Bayo shouldnt be able to have a wide variety of relatively easy-bake combos that kill from anywhere on screen at 0% to go along with her fairly diverse and unpradictable neutral.

7. The fact that i dont even want to touch her combos, just lower her weight and nerf bat within, is a testament to how anti-nerf i am. The fact that you cant even accept those changes as being acceptable is a testament to either how closed minded you are, or how little you know about the game at a competative level.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

1. Lol sorry

2. Similar to Pikazz's statement, ZeRo's words is not laws. He might be the best Smash 4 player, but he is just human. Human can make silly mistakes, ZeRo is no exception.

3. Do you know how light 64 weight is? That is crazy light, lighter than jiggly. Most of your justification is the theory that she can 0 to death you the moment she touch you. She can 0 to death no doubt, but soon people will learn how to prevent it and your justification will be a fad.

4. ;-( They were tbh.

5. Jiggly is probably the worst character in the game after Zelda's buffs. If we are going with jiggly as a proper balance, then Mario should weight 50.
Bayonetta's neutral is lackluster due to the horrible framedata and sub par mobility.

6. Meta Knight has an effective neutral game. Fast and nice range for a small character. Many extremely safe and quick mpves similar to Sheik.
Bayonetta's neutral game is vastly more predictable once you have gone up against many good Bayonetta players. If you really can't predict what she will do, play as her.
And another potentially faulty justification with the guaranteed 0 to death theory. Check up more videos of Bayonetta in tournament, only a few Bayonetta players are successful with her and people have started to counter the 0 to death.

7. Lowering weight by 2 or 3 unit might reasonable, but not 20 units, that is just blind nerf bandwagon.
Batwithin still cause you to take damage and many combo still works. The difference between between Batwithin and the best air dodge in the game is 1 frame and it isn't enough to kill most guaranteed combos.
Plus, Bayonetta's air dodge is the worst in the game already. It has 10 frames of endlag when other characters only has 5 or 6 frames. I already barely use it.
How to deal with Batwithin? Bait it, then punish it like any other air dodge.

 

[SkippyJ]

You can escape some of them with perfect SDI, yes, but not all of them, and any time you get hit by one you cant escape, or you happen to sdi just a little bit too slow or just 5% too far to the right, you are dead. Give it an few more months and youll see. Playing against an optomized bayo, if you get hit at just about any percent it is very likely you will die. All it takes is having memorized (or bringing notes) of what combos work when on what characters, and a good bayo main will take a stock with just about every hit. You are already seeing it happen. The only reason you see bayo mains dropping combos so much is because they dont know yet exactly what combos work at what percents on each character, NOT because they arnt garunteed.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

You can escape some of them with perfect SDI, yes, but not all of them, and any time you get hit by one you cant escape, or you happen to sdi just a little bit too slow or just 5% too far to the right, you are dead. Give it an few more months and youll see. Playing against an optomized bayo, if you get hit at just about any percent it is very likely you will die. All it takes is having memorized (or bringing notes) of what combos work when on what characters, and a good bayo main will take a stock with just about every hit. You are already seeing it happen. The only reason you see bayo mains dropping combos so much is because they dont know yet exactly what combos work at what percents on each character, NOT because they arnt garunteed.

Yeah, cuz Bayonetta's opponent rarely live past 100% right?
xP

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

Agghhhh why do people think the only way to nerf her is by messing with her offense? :'( make her a glass cannon and everyone will be happy! She can SAFELY kill at 0? She should be able to be killed at 80, that simple. I mean, puff dies at 80 all the time and that's to balance out the fact that she can kill at 40 (with THE most unsafe move in the game), surely asking that bayonetta be puff weight or lighter can't be too much to ask.

Because nobody wants another Mac.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

If we are going imagine a magical "good Bayonetta main", then we should imagine a "good Little Mac main" too.
xP
A good xxxx is always OP, it isn't a good argument.

 

[SkippyJ]

I suppose we will see with time i personally am fine with waiting a couple months to see how things play out, im just afraid that by the time we become sure whether or not it is necessary, it will be too late to make any changes, what with patches coming to a close soon (im assuming).

And idk man, i think a lot of people would love to see an airiel little mac xP high risk high reward characters are always the hypest, just look at falcon

 

[SkippyJ]

If we are going imagine a magical "good Bayonetta main", then we should imagine a "good Little Mac main" too.
xP
A good xxxx is always OP, it isn't a good argument.

I dont mean perfect, i just mean a person with a notebook and the ability to consistantly press buttons in the right order. dx
(Assuming that the death combos are often times inescapable, and general consensus is they are)

 

[apparently fuz]

Why do people still think that the real busted thing about Bayonetta is Witch Time?

 

[blackghost]

Why do people still think that the real busted thing about Bayonetta is Witch Time?

No idea they act like it comes out on frame 0. witch time is a counter obviously if you get read you take your punishment.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tsm-zero-lets-talk-bayonetta-drama.433916/page-4#post-21042215

That's all. Yes she is good and maybe above where I would like to see every character. This would bring her into a more balanced state which is something every character should want to be at.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tsm-zero-lets-talk-bayonetta-drama.433916/page-4#post-21042215

That's all. Yes she is good and maybe above where I would like to see every character. This would bring her into a more balanced state which is something every character should want to be at.

Ness's recovery kills though, it is almost as powerful as a KO punch.
There is basically no risk on purposely getting hit by a Witch Twist. Plus Witch Twist already cover a small distance and it is a multi hit like Lucas'd recovery which iirc doesn't reduce range on hit.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Ness's recovery kills though, it is almost as powerful as a KO punch.
There is basically no risk on purposely getting hit by a Witch Twist. Plus Witch Twist already cover a small distance and it is a multi hit like Lucas'd recovery which iirc doesn't reduce range on hit.

Ok and are you trying to argue against my idea or agree? What are you doing.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Ok and are you trying to argue against my idea or agree? What are you doing.

I was disagreeing, Witch Twist is already a short range move
And who knows if the 0 to death is actually just faulty argument for the nerfs.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

I was disagreeing, Witch Twist is already a short range move
And who knows if the 0 to death is actually just faulty argument for the nerfs.

It will stay as is if you don't hit someone with it but if you do it gets shortened a little that way you can't carry someone up from the ground. You did read my post right and you know this thread and a few others are salty about bayo. This is just an idea that may alleviate some of the "omg bayo op af ban her 0-death = bs" posts. If you have another suggestion then please post it I would like to hear from someone who mains her. I feel most of the people want her either banned or to be trash but I think she is alright as is but maybe in need of a little fix witch could help to balance her. This is as I said where every character should be.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

My fix would be increase the landing lag after using specials.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

My fix would be increase the landing lag after using specials.

I guess that is something. People seem to be focusing complaining more about the elevator kills though. I just don't want to see her get gutted because of these salty morons.

 

[Fenor]

IF they want to balance her out they can simply remove the upb jump cancel.

that's it. nothing else really need to change