My Falcon's match-up & good luck to u guys. I'm going inactive

[Charoo]

Hey all. Lately, I been talking to smashers in general about Falcon. It seems to me that people have very little to no knowledge of what Falcon can truly do. Even some Falcon players underestimate Falcon or use excuse that "it's Falcon vs Metaknight."

I have fought with so many people that they all go like wtfomgbbqsauce when I do something with Falcon. Some people also tell me what they think how falcon should do against that character, and I would disagree to them about it. Then they would just tell me some false fact that sounds real when I started way back then. I used to believe that Falcon was bad cause he have "no priority", that's not true at all. In my opinion, Falcon is bad because he have no true range moves and aerial to ground approach. That's it.

So, I just want to give my own input of the character match up for Captain Falcon. You don't have to agree with me but I feel that I have enough knowledge about Falcon to know the situation. If you want to ask me why I think that match up is like that then just ask me.

Captain Douglas Jay Falcon (30-70)
Metaknight
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Wario
Kirby
Olimar
Fox
Luigi
Peach
Sheik
Ness

Retired Douglas(35-65)
Snake
King Dedede
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Mario

Bart Lemmings (40-60)
R.O.B.
Marth
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Wolf
Toon Link
Zelda
Charizard
Samus

Rick Wheeler in Falcon Suit (45-55)
Bowser
Ike
Lucas
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link

Rick Wheeler (50-50)
Rick Wheeler

The tier list name are base on how good of a falcon you have to be to be able to beat them. Of course Douglas at his prime is (100-0) against every1.

p.s. I just wanted Rick Wheeler to be 50-50 with himself haha. I know there are even match up but I just want to leave it like that. There's probably like 4 or 5 people from the 45-55 that are 50-50. I also arrange the char. base on the tier list. Lastly, my experience with the chars. in the game r not fully the same for all char., but they r all good enough for me to understand the match up.

Just my 2 cent.

 

[Falcos_feather]

How could Sakurai do this to Falcon!!

*Depressed*

 

[Zeallyx]

seems pretty acurate to me, although I don't understand sheik's placement and i doubt kirby's.
as sheik stands close to real pains (like luigi, wario meta knight etc.) what makes sheik as bad as you say? and also, what makes lucas so 'easy'? I think he's quite hard to beat with his pk fire stopping most approaches and pk thunder pain >.<
elaborate on kirby, sheik and lucas please (I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want an explaination)

 

[Noodlehead]

yeah, i think ivysaur belongs in 40-60 though

 

[Charoo]

Sheik is probably a match up that u will hardly ever see Falcon win. I myself is a sheik player also and whenever I do play against Falcon, it is one of the easiest thing you can ever do. Sheik can tilt lock falcon from low to high percentage easily. This alone is a big problem because falcon can't get out of it fast enough. Another thing that hurts falcon is the needles. Not in a sense that it camps falcon (which can be use for that too) but it works freaking amazing at edge guarding him. As long as one connect, there's a pretty high chance that he's not coming back. It can also stop falcon's momentum on the stage. I know that sheik can't kill people very well, but Falcon and some other chars. are an exception. Sheik's forward air sends people horizontally. That along with falcon's weight makes him go downward. This is why the needle works so well.

Of course, Falcon can fight sheik too but it's an up hill battle. Up+b out of shield doesn't work on sheik because of some stupid programming (same for ness, wolf, etc.). So it's hard to punish her. Yet, if you can grab her then u can string a lot of hits together because she's a fast faller. It is very hard to approach a defensive sheik because sheik will not move unless she have to. This isn't a problem for higher chars. because they have good range and punishing moves. For Falcon though, he can only sit back and wait patiently for an opening. Falcon kick/ raptor boost doesn't work that well too cause a needle can stop it. The only thing I can give Falcon advantage in this is that Falcon can own sheik in the air if she's above him. This is because like falcon, she have a pretty weak defense when coming down on the stage. This is why I believe it's a hard match up.

---

For Kirby, I'm sure every1 know that Kirby can chaingrab Falcon to like 40% or something. He is also a very small char. so it's very hard to hit him at all. As long as kirby plays a cheap and defensive game, Falcon can't do much. He also have a spike which of course is very deadly against falcon due to his poor recovery. Kirby also have a very good grab range which can punish falcon a lot if you don't know the spacing of it. Overall, Falcon just have a really hard time vs kirby. Inhale suicide also own falcon too. Another thing you should be careful is kirby taking your power. His recovery become like 2 times better with the falcon punch. So be careful of that. There really isn't any pro against kirby besides playing your butt off until you win. I seriously don't think there's a true way to beat kirby if the kirby is good and understand how falcon works. I have lost to random kirby before back then but not anymore. That's not to say that kirby isn't good, just that I have fully learn the things I need to do against it. Still doesn't make him an easy match up though.

---

I personally love lucas. He is so laggy that you can get guarantee 15% on him about every time u shield something by up+b out of shield. He is also very easy to edge guard. Just jump out with a knee. Don't go for a strong one though. Go for a weak one and then proceed to hit him with a move after that. He's still a small target though so it's hard to hit him right. Yet, you can play a tilting game vs him and it'll be fine. He can't do much against your tilt as long as you space it right. There's also a new technique im developing that greatly influence my decision on this. I can't say what it is yet (sorry) because I'm not fully 100% it works so I'll leave it at that. Just know that I can kill Lucas as low as 100% guarantee no matter what. Lucas can still own you though if you don't fight him quite often. He'll do some random aerial movements and it might surprise you and caught you off guard. Just keep a good spacing and he shouldn't be able to out range you unless he use one of his laggy move.

---

I play Charizard so sometime I gotta use Ivysaur too =( He's not that hard to fight. Yeah he camps like a ******* but Falcon can counter campers very well with his tilts. Down tilt have an amazing range just that there's a decent lag afterward. The easiest part vs ivysaur is that u can gimp him really well. Forward throw him off and you can pretty much guarantee urself the stock. Just hit him once outside so that his aerial momentum have to start all over again. If he's camping u with razor leaf and back air then just wait it out. Who said you need to attack him (as long as u have lower %). If he's going to camp then let him do it. Ivysaur isn't that much of a threat. Aggressiveness own Ivysaur and making him come to u also own him.

 

[Zeallyx]

alright, thanks I'm convinced

 

[Wogrim]

I'd like some explanation on Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Fox, and for some submissions in my guide if I'm missing important stuff.

 

[WastingPenguins]

You seem reasonably knowledgeable and I agree with a lot of what you're saying but your whole secret strategy vs. Lucas which you cannot reveal is a bunch of idiotic bull****. Are you KIDDING me? You can't reveal it because you're not 100% sure that it works? Why not just say what it is and have an entire COMMUNITY of people test out your stupid strategy? Either man up and say what it is or spare us your idiotic lies.

 

[Majora_younglink]

Good explanations on everyone. The list looks pretty solid but I'm not sure if Snake is that much of a problem compared to some of the other match ups. Especially the Ice Climber chain grab to 100+. Also Gannondorf in my opinion is easier than another C Falcon. XD

Also explaining the technique might be a good idea for the Lucas. That allows more people to test and stuff and see if it does or doesn't work.

 

[Ayaz18]

well fox has both aerial approches and laz0rs, but he's still pretty low ranked

priority is what seperates tiers man

also Falcon can own Wario you just need to take advantage of grab releases.

 

[Charoo]

You seem reasonably knowledgeable and I agree with a lot of what you're saying but your whole secret strategy vs. Lucas which you cannot reveal is a bunch of idiotic bull****. Are you KIDDING me? You can't reveal it because you're not 100% sure that it works? Why not just say what it is and have an entire COMMUNITY of people test out your stupid strategy? Either man up and say what it is or spare us your idiotic lies.

caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalm downnnnnnnnnnnn

I'm saying it's a secrect because I have tested on a real player yet. I don't really like to tell people things if it doesn't work. On paper it sounds like it should wrok, but I don't want to post it if it doesn't. Calm down man. I'm not trying to hide anything. It's still an unknown unknown to me too.

well fox has both aerial approches and laz0rs, but he's still pretty low ranked

priority is what seperates tiers man

also Falcon can own Wario you just need to take advantage of grab releases.

a good fox can handle falcon very easily. I'm arranging by how hard the match up is (only in tiers when they r in the list). He can actually shine falcon pretty **** easy as I know this myself from using fox agaisnt falcon and falcon agaisnt fox. He can drill/up tilt/laser falcon to the needed % to up smash pretty **** fast too. You can **** him in the air though. I'll explain mroe later when I get home

falcon does not own wario. Grab release doesn't make it that easier for falcon. If you play futile then you would know how impossible it is to grab him. Maybe like 2 grab at most in a match. You can ask any1 here in socal using any char. Grab release also work only if there isn't something above you. The only case that can happen 100% is final d. If wario knows about it then he's going to ban final d on you. Next best bet is like smashville. Wario is like jigglypuff in melee, they always stay in the air and have crazy movement. You need to make them mess up to grab them. Wario can also bite gimp your recovery too. You also can't punish his down air since his bite is too fast for u to do anything (since it beats ur up+b out of shield).

I'll explain the mario/luigi/peach later when I get home.

This is why I make this thread. I want people to give me feedback on their own experience and compare it to mine. Give me a valid point though or else I wont take ur reponse seriously ("metaknight is better than falcon" doesn't cut it, tell me why).

 

[Ayaz18]

^^

my fox statment was about what you said in your original post about why Falcon sucks, im saying that Fox also is pretty crap, but in your eyes he's amazing cause he can abuse projectiles an has an awesome aerial approch. However he's not total crap but he is pretty bad compared to his "clone" who only has (mainly) only CG over fox, which brings me to the point I'v been itching towards; Brawl is focused on priority and anything cheap (like CG's that take a fraction of skill to master)

also about how you said that it's hard to grab release Wario......................uhhh im not necessarily talking about the infinite, even a grounded grab release allows a free hit, same goes for platforms, it's just for a free hit which gives Falcon a huge advantage.

 

[Charoo]

^^

my fox statment was about what you said in your original post about why Falcon sucks, im saying that Fox also is pretty crap, but in your eyes he's amazing cause he can abuse projectiles an has an awesome aerial approch. However he's not total crap but he is pretty bad compared to his "clone" who only has (mainly) only CG over fox, which brings me to the point I'v been itching towards; Brawl is focused on priority and anything cheap (like CG's that take a fraction of skill to master)

also about how you said that it's hard to grab release Wario......................uhhh im not necessarily talking about the infinite, even a grounded grab release allows a free hit, same goes for platforms, it's just for a free hit which gives Falcon a huge advantage.

falco does better than fox because he controls the pace of the match. Each laser he shoots make his opponent reacts. Fox would be better if he have a better range. That's his main downfall because he have everything else to be a good character. The only reason he can do well without good range is because he can laser camp them to force them to come to u instead.

u need to grab wario first for that to happen. Like I said, you shouldn't be grabbing wario that much at all if he's playing right. That's why wario is one of the best vs ice climbers too. If grab release was a big problem then wario wouldn't be doing so well seeing as how snake can freaking up tilt wario out of grab release but wario can still beat snake. I understand that a grab release is great because u r guarantee to punish him afterward. Yet, it just isn't enough to make the match even. I'm not saying you play bad wario but u gotta understand that grab release doesn't make it become a lob sided match. If we have an infinite like dedede (on dk,bowser, etc.) then it would be different. I dunno, you just have to experience futile's wario to see how hard it is to get a grab on freaking wario.

 

[Wogrim]

In my experience, Falco's lasers are a huge step above Fox's because they interrupt, which makes aerial approaches pretty much impossible because his SHDL is lagless so if you airdodge he can still get still get you most of the time. Fox's lasers don't stop Falcon Punch =D

 

[Ayaz18]

falco does better than fox because he controls the pace of the match. Each laser he shoots make his opponent reacts. Fox would be better if he have a better range. That's his main downfall because he have everything else to be a good character. The only reason he can do well without good range is because he can laser camp them to force them to come to u instead.

u need to grab wario first for that to happen. Like I said, you shouldn't be grabbing wario that much at all if he's playing right. That's why wario is one of the best vs ice climbers too. If grab release was a big problem then wario wouldn't be doing so well seeing as how snake can freaking up tilt wario out of grab release but wario can still beat snake. I understand that a grab release is great because u r guarantee to punish him afterward. Yet, it just isn't enough to make the match even. I'm not saying you play bad wario but u gotta understand that grab release doesn't make it become a lob sided match. If we have an infinite like dedede (on dk,bowser, etc.) then it would be different. I dunno, you just have to experience futile's wario to see how hard it is to get a grab on freaking wario.

k Falco's only diffence from Fox (lazor-wise) is that his lasers have a stun feature. I understand how that can change the pacing of the match, but still Fox's lasers output the same amount of damage as Falco's, even if he SHFFL's them because Fox can do the same.......each laser does 2% when it gain's "stale moves" and originally does 3%

About Wario your just stating that, if the Wario's knows what their doing he'll counter with something............ that's like saying that Jiggz can own Falcon if she knows what she's doing????

Personally I don't think that Wario "if played smartly can own Falcon" is a reasonable argument. Just because any character can be played smartly

and if you think that grab release is a huge advatage then why is he in the 70-30 section??

 

[DoB04]

landing grabs is not that hard, no matter who you play, you can always shield grab instead of upbing out of it, you can jaba cancel into a grab....but i guess it still can be hard at times

 

[Charoo]

k Falco's only diffence from Fox (lazor-wise) is that his lasers have a stun feature. I understand how that can change the pacing of the match, but still Fox's lasers output the same amount of damage as Falco's, even if he SHFFL's them because Fox can do the same.......each laser does 2% when it gain's "stale moves" and originally does 3%

About Wario your just stating that, if the Wario's knows what their doing he'll counter with something............ that's like saying that Jiggz can own Falcon if she knows what she's doing????

Personally I don't think that Wario "if played smartly can own Falcon" is a reasonable argument. Just because any character can be played smartly

and if you think that grab release is a huge advatage then why is he in the 70-30 section??

falco laser stun is what make him a rank above fox. Fox makes people come to him by laser spamming. It's the same concept as falco but u can't approach with laser. Falco lasers can be use to approach because his opponent have to be in a certain position to avoid the laser. If they shield then falco wont move in. If they can duck under then falco can boost up smash while the laser is above him so he can't avoid the boost up smash. He can also forward b away from them if they get close too. Laser isn't the only thing that makes him better than fox. It's just one of the better thigh than he does. Chain grabbing is the other, and him being able to spike doesn't hurt either.

jigg doesn't own falcon because she have opening gap in her moves. You can punish her for laggy moves. You can't punish wario if he jsut jump at u and down air then move away from u. You can't even shield grab wario because no one is going to do a laggy aerial with wario and land in front of you. They either move away or behind. I also said that grab release DOES NOT make it a one sided match. That's why it's 30-70. You can't edge guard wario either because his recovery is ****. I already explain that wario can pressure falcon really well due to him taking forever to counter act. Jab combos also doesn't work since wario can up+b out of it. I just said that smart wario r hard to fight. Then I elaborate on why it's hard for fallcon. Read my whole post please.

I told u before, this is my own experience vs wario. If you don't agree with me then it's fine. You just have to tell me why. All you're doing to pick a part of my post then say that it's not true without saying why.

 

[Ayaz18]

^^^

well im picking apart your reasons of why you said Falcon sucks, you said it's not because of priority, it's because of his approach and no projectile game. I am trying to tell you that if that's true then Falco and Fox should be on the same level, or Falco being a bit higher because of his laser pacing, yet we see a significant danger level of play.

about the jiggz statement, I know jiggz can't own Falcon but, by your previous post Wario can beat Falcon easily if played smart. I thought that was very weak argument because anyone can be played smart and win, that's why I gave the jiggz reference because of your statement, "if played correctly anyone can beat anyone"............and I think everyone has realized that in Brawl, that melee fact has dissipated. Hell G-reg just admitted it

 

[Charoo]

fox and falco have range/approach. It's a reverse approach though. They don't approach them but instead make people approach them. That's how they can over come the approach. Falcon can't do that. There is nothing Falcon can do to make people come after you beside u winning by % and time is running out. If you fight g&w as an example, he can spam back air 24/7 and you will never hit him because his move have better range and you can't approach in. With falco or fox, you can laser g&w to make him stop and approach you. That is what I mean. Falcon have to be offensive to win. Yet, every1 knows that being defensive in this game is too good.

This will probably be my last post for a long while (2 or 3 months). My friends and I been waiting for SF4 to hit AI and now it's here. So we're going to go play that now. I really hope that Falcon players (not the character) will do well in tournament. You guys got this

Show me your moves when I come back guys. Good luck to you all

I'll probably release a last batch of video before I become inactive.

 

[Noodlehead]

fox and falco have range/approach. It's a reverse approach though. They don't approach them but instead make people approach them. That's how they can over come the approach. Falcon can't do that. There is nothing Falcon can do to make people come after you beside u winning by % and time is running out. If you fight g&w as an example, he can spam back air 24/7 and you will never hit him because his move have better range and you can't approach in. With falco or fox, you can laser g&w to make him stop and approach you. That is what I mean. Falcon have to be offensive to win. Yet, every1 knows that being defensive in this game is too good.

This will probably be my last post for a long while (2 or 3 months). My friends and I been waiting for SF4 to hit AI and now it's here. So we're going to go play that now. I really hope that Falcon players (not the character) will do well in tournament. You guys got this

Show me your moves when I come back guys. Good luck to you all

I'll probably release a last batch of video before I become inactive.

i have to show my moves next summer

 

[Zeallyx]

R.I.P Charoo :S
(don't go!)